U hit the nail on the head. The corrupt music industry doesn't want the small and medium artist in the game.

That wasn’t a “tin foil hat” you were wearing, it was your thinking cap. In 1994, I was employed in the marketing dept. of the distributor WEA and attended a NARM conference. I wasn’t a high level insider but the man I worked for was and asked me to tag along to an informal meeting at a suite in the hotel where the event was. The only things discussed were the disappointment (and anger too) at the public for not buying into the “MiniDisc” and the annoyance at whomever allowed DAT recording devices to be sold to consumers in the U.S. Essentially, they were trying to come up with yet another way to sell you your favorite albums. They’d already exhausted the 4 previous replacement formats and they were loosing their damn minds because they couldn’t find another way to get us to buy “Abby Road”. Innovation or music quality was never an issue for them - tricking the public into believing they needed a “better” version of stuff they already owned was their sole focus. As for ATMOS, I have never, not once, sat still in the middle of my living room and enjoyed music. It’s playing as I move about my house, my work or in my car. It’s why all the other surround formats failed - music isn’t consumed like films are - it's not a passive experience, it's supposed to make us move.

ATMOS is an exclusive club for big label, big budget artists. Spotify and Apple will eventually reverse their decision to block independent music.

This is the second video I’ve watched on the new “Atmos” fad and I love the logic of how you raise questions about it. And yes, I call it a “fad”. The fact that you mentioned old formats that came and went makes that point. In a world of ear buds and laptop speakers do audio inventors in that world really think that common folk are gonna invest in this madness. Most of them don’t even care about the sound of music to that level. Your point on streaming sites who are underpaying the artists in the first place threatening to bar folks from the site if they don’t use “Atmos” is a great observation. Thank you for this video…

I started mixing in Atmos years ago when it was just released and only ProTools Ultimate supported it. Once Apple released their spatial audio, I was shocked to hear that they use the DD+JOC to re-render a 7.1.4 that they then feed into their spatial engine. Both Amazon and Tidal use the expected AC-4 IMS as Dolby intended, but have to decode it before streaming the audio to Apple devices. And now everyone is holding their breath to see if Spotify will embrace Atmos and if they do, they too will use the AC-4 IMS (assuming that Apple would never license their spatial). This will exacerbate these two ecosystems: AC-4 IMS and whatever Apple does with spatial. The horrible truth is that you can NOT create a single master that is immersive and expect it to fold down on stereo to be heard by consumers on stereo devices. I know that mixing and mastering gurus are jumping through ridiculous technical hoops to try and create a master for all bed widths and binaural, but it only destroys the whole point of what Atmos is - Immersive. It simply must be binaural or just use a separate stereo master because 99.99% of consumers listen on just two: speakers (2.0) or headphones (Binaural). No one is using a 7.1.4 or 9.1.4 setup to listen to streaming music. So just mix and master for Binaural. I have mixed and mastered multiple times with only headphones. And if you listen to my music with headphones on Atmos QC devices it sounds super close to my master. Apple spatial is defintely modified, but good. The stereo is, well you guessed it, not good. How could it be. In the end, the masses will stream with loyalty from their chosen provider without any awareness of what they are actually listening to from a spatial perspective.

All your points are 100% on point! This is the record labels trying to "take back" the CD. If i cant release my music on Spotify and so on, I will not be paying for any streaming service anymore.

Thanks Devon. Of all the youtube talks I've heard about ATMOS, this reflects my thoughts and experience most accurately.

I totally agree with your assesment. I think it is a try to take back control and cut out all those pesky musicians who do their own thing without being under control of some majors.

Devon, you have PERFECTLY articulated the conundrum presented by ATMOS. Having it morph into a required standard by Apple and Spotify is a clear case of the tail wagging the dog. I have a home theatre set up for 5.1 and I do have a few incredible 5.1 mixes (mostly Steven Wilson and Porcupine Tree), and while I LOVE listening to them - Steven did all the mixes himself and uses the arrangement very creatively - I don't see this as something that is universally appropriate for all music. How do we think that Miles Davis would react to having a surround version of Kind of Blue? I'm pretty sure he'd have a lot of blue language for the idea. THANKS for putting this together. It's a great template for the larger discussion about what is best for musicians, their fans, and the world at large. From the current state of things, it's primarily a boost for Dolby, Spotify, Apple, and the record labels to gain control and exact their tolls on musicians and the public. Maybe this doesn't actually rise to the level of conspiracy, but holy crap, it sure has the potential for it.😡

I'm old enough to remember "Quadrophonic" in the early 70's. To hear a Quad product (vinyl, tape) you had to spend a huge amount of money with four matching speakers, a four channel amplifier and a four track tape deck or Quad turntable with a special Quad stylus. After spending all that money it turned out the product was very limited. There were few Quadraphonic" recording studios to mix or re-mix earlier recordings in. It was a major bust.

Nice job. Very well researched and articulately communicated. Dolby Atmos is a solution for a problem that does not exist. We need this like a fish needs a bicycle.

THANK YOU! That was a breath of fresh air on the whole Atmos chatter. I think you nailed it from a business standpoint. This may be a blessing in disguise for bands who just want to get their music out there.... they can just sell Vinyl and MP3's etc... 1st time I've seen one of your videos. I have subscribed. Got bless you sir!

Excellent take. I recently heard an Atmos mix of some good pop music, in a nice commercial studio with an Atmos setup. It was striking and inspiring, but all your points ring true - who’s going to actually hear it like that? I like the idea of the independents’ hand being forced to find or develop a new delivery system, and we can get on with producing music in our tried-and-true fashion and maybe actually make money again. Again, great job here.

Phenomenal perspective and very well put together points that really make you question if atmos is leaning closer and closer toward a scam each day and a way for the industry to take over and get back to their gate keeping

Thank you for this exhaustive, rubber-meets-road overview. Subbing!

We have two ears, we need two channels. Simple.

Very well said! Thank you for your insight on this topic.

When it comes to that immersive surround experience with recording music, the only path I've worked with was using a binaural mic in a live experience. An orchestral quintet. Works great, and translates well and relatively cost effective. When it comes to experiencing Atmos, I'd only go with a truly tuned professional theater, and even those differ vastly from place to place. Good stuff Devon. Just another way to separate a consumer with their hard earned cash.

I’m going to have to read up on this a little more, because as far as I’ve heard, having Atmos isn’t a requirement to upload your music to Apple Music. It’s required if you want the chance to be put in there playlist of music that they promote. The last album I listened to on Apple Music was Black Milk “Everybody Good? “ and it’s not recorded in Atmos, it just says Lossless.

Excellent vid ❤

I agree with the vast majority of what you said. I was playing with the atmos possibilities of my setup since 18 months, thru binaural & I tried to listen to atmos mixes, thru binaural as well. My conclusion so far is it doesn't work for my music and for other people's music. At all, it's a joke. And 90% of the final listeners will hear my music thru headphones at the best. Obviously not with 12 speakers, sat in the sweet spot in a treated room. Who could imagine that! 🤣 So, I gave up my atmos compositions/trials 3 months ago. No more waste of time with that. Like you the music I compose (see my YT channel) could be realy compatible with 3d things and I was realy excited by this new way to express my creativity but, well, this system doesn't work for me now and I'll certainly not invest in that. I can achieve far better results for 3D ear candies/FX/ambiances with binaural renderings of ambisonic sounds. And my own music is not on spotify or apple. They don't pay, they never will and I boycott them since the begining, my lossless music is on bandcamp. And I subscribe to you channel!

Compelling arguments Devon, and very succinct points. Bouncing sound of wall is opposite what the audio engineer had endeavored to present. My thoughts immediately went to the UK’s off shore Radio Caroline many years ago, which came to notoriety as the BBC had blocked broadcasting certain new sound/songs which never met their business plan, 3 minutes long and lip-synched live, etc. Radio Caroline played the music blocked by BBC and so public demand sought their music from off shore station to hear the music they wanted to hear and not be driven down a path which they did not want. I’d expect another music source will be generated due to public demand. Just a thought, and likely lonely!

I can agree with you on all points. I never considered the "re-taking of control" side before and I was unaware that Spotify is now requireing an Atmos submission too. I think for the serious audiophille who sets up a room specifically for this it might work, but only on certain types of music like you pointed out. And them how much can a person take of that. Sensory overload in my opinion. After dabiling with recording and mixing for years I finally invested in my Mobile recording set up to work in my local area. I was completely frustrated when all the hub bub about Atmos started. I appreciate your take on this and am now not at all concerened about if I need to invest in Atmos. I will continue foeward in Stereo and will be very content. Thank you!

Thanks Devon, great video, you said it, ...it's like my own thinking of the Atmos!

I'm seeing a lot of these videos about Atmos in my feed now, and I think it's great that people are calling out the issues. Good stereo playback is perfectly adequate for enjoyment of music. As you point out, the fact that Atmos is licensed makes me want to scream and run. This whole thing tastes of greedy exploitation, and I don't like it.

Well thought out and explained. Thank you

Great Analysis. I think you said it all. Like you said what kind of compressor setup does one need. The interfaces and routing disaster.... I sub'd Great stuff keep it coming

Very well thought, explained, and said - I could not agree more. 👍 And it's an extremely important point that you mention, that most or let's just say all of those KZfaqrs soooo enthusiastic about Atmos and pushing it like crazy and all "just about to equip my studio for Atmos" are heavily sponsored - HEAVILY, they may like to always state that all they say is their own independent opinion, but hey, when Sweetwater & co are paying your bills and feeding you gear... opinions tend to flow with the wind. Another IMHO extremely important point, along with the plain a& simple fact that most musicians do not write/arrange music for a spatial or immersive presentation or desire it and that the end user will never ever have a well set up correct Atmos rig to listen to it, as you did state, is this: Apple may be big in USA, but worldwide... not so much. Most of the world is on PC and on Android, when it comes to mobile tech (latest stats say 27,9% vs 71,4% of mobile users.!), which is where & how most music is consumed today (sadly). And we all know the binaural headphone fold-down is a gimmick, it's nowhere near what immersive should sound like, or what a 7.1.4 or 9.1.2. properly setup system sounds like. Also, not all the world is America - music is listened to every minute of every day everywhere from India to South America, from Europe to Japan, from Russia to Tanzania, from Ghana to China, from the Andes to Tibet, etc, and the prices of Atmos licenses, gear, pro or home setups and even of mixes for the artists & labels are absolutely unviable and non feasible in many if not most, countries and economies. So this absurd, totally unrealistic power grab move in the music world called Atmos, concocted & piloted by USA-based and americocentric ignorant self-absorbed yuppies and corporations must not only be pushed back against, it must be ridiculed and exposed. And you did a pretty good job at it here - kudos. 👊 AF PS: a small plugin company form Italy, Hornet Plugins, which I BTW highly recommend for several of their products and for their amazingly friendly licensing policy and prices, has already developed a virtual master bus plugin enabling stereo-style master processing for those who want to mix in Atmos, it's called SAMP. Check them out...

Thanks Devon - Nice video - one bit of info: Spotify does NOT require an ATMOS mix (at least according to DistroKid). And I think Colt was saying for Apple Music, one cannot be playlisted with a non-ATMOS mix. but you can still submit and regular stereo mix. Anyone - please let me know if I'm wrong. Thanks again.

Years ago, a sound engineer told me, they'll introduce new channel configurations, but it will always go back to stereo since it makes the most sense. In how we hear, and a practical way to deliver the sound. I doubt it will have mass acceptance; to get a better experience than stereo, you'll have to spend as much as on a car, and have some technical knowledge as well. Most people aren't going through that, and the lack of adoption could lead to it's demise.

Your points were very well made and I totally agree! As someone who has worked in recording studios since the 80's, I feel that this ATMOS mixing is a complete farce! Budgets are so tight in the recording industry, how can they expect us recording producers/engineers to spend so much money on a Dolby mixing system!

this is the best video on the atmos topic. thank you.

You are not alone in this, I’ve seen some other professionals creating similar videos. I think Atmos has no place outside of the movie industry. Keep music Stereo!!

Great discussion, appreciate it. I am seeing and hearing more discussions about the economics and pragmatism of Atmos versus the inherent technical capabilities of Atmos. Would I like to have an Atmos system and listen to music mixed in multichannel format? Of course. I am old enough to remember quadrophonic sound. If you knew someone who could afford a quadrophonic system and could sit in the dead center of the room, it sounded pretty cool. That was in the 70s. Was it amazing? Yes. Where did it go? I don't know but it's gone. Even for stereo mixes, you don't really hear stereo unless you sit in the sweet spot between the speakers. And often times stereo mixes are effectively mono depending on the environment you are in. The economics will drive the adoption, not the inherent capabilities. The real question to ask is who economically benefits from Atmos? For now, anyway, it doesn't seem to be the artist and it doesn't seem to be the consumer.

So totally agree! I have only cosumer atmos as in a soundbar with sub and two rear speakers.

incredible video i agree with everything you said, LOOOOL I love what u said about rap

RIVETING examination. (Subscribed!) I'm very excited about composing and producing for ATMOS and ambisonics... but only for my own personal experimentation and enjoyment. I completely agree with all of your points. As you imply, they are more caught up in the thrill rather than the practicality. And, true, it is a new revenue pathway, that if the various distribution platforms mandate it, will create nearly guaranteed massive inflows for those pushing the format and required tech to realize it, both in the home and the studio. ... As a tech head, I like that immersive technology is being pushed forward. As with the growing emphasis on AI "aligning" with human "values" and wellbeing, what would make this entire immersive push more palatable, and even more desirable, is if GREAT emphasis and marketing was on aligning with stereo through all phases: production, delivery, and consumption -- somehow not relegating stereo to antiquated second-class but maintaining it as equal or first class. ... Where and when I see the investment in immersive audio now paying off in the future is, and here's my patent pending bit, AI vision and extremely narrow audio beam forming (AI controlled of course) are used to beam any surround configuration independently to a variably limited number of people in an environment, no matter their position or orientation, even compensating for occlusions by computing optimal surface reflections and timing adjustments as needed for any individual. (Similarly using low-power, fast-moving color lasers to feed AR and VR independently to each head-, orientation-, and eye-tracked individual.) (A quick search on "audio beam forming", among other results, returns an article published by Digital Trends in 2021 highlighting Holoplot, a company researching audio beam forming with some success.) Soooo, while surround is now and will be a plaything, gimmick, or nuisance for the relative short-term, I think it will be the "new stereo" in that glorious light and sound beaming future X years from now. ... EDIT: Ok, forget beam-forming. Wireless ambisonics earbuds will be so improved and lower cost in the next generations that the market will then grow to critical mass for surround mixes to be preferred. I think it might be wise to consider it this way and develop the surround mixing chops now to be positioned for that inevitable future. "Inevitable" because Sony on this matter is like a Terminator: ... "Listen, and understand. [Sony ATMOS] is out there, it can't be bargained with, it can't be reasoned with, it doesn't feel pity or remorse or fear, and it absolutely will not stop… EVER, until [stereo is] dead!”, Kyle Reese. Haha... It appears Fabfilter embraces the ATMOS terminator. Just discovered this on KVR Audio: "[Fabfilter] Added support for Atmos 5.1.2, 5.1.4, 7.1.4, 9.1.4 and 9.1.6 surround formats to the AAX plug-ins (the VST, VST3 and AU plug-ins already supported this)."

You've asked precisely the questions that many of us have asked. I believe the future will be primarily, not exclusively, but primarily centered around in-ear or over-the-ear devices, especially the Air Pods. Perhaps, just perhaps, despite what we know that mixing generally is not done with headphones, since listeners will use Air Pods, maybe the tech will be good enough to mix that way, too. I just don't want to be like the guy who in 1918 said everything that can be invented has been invented. Interesting day in which we live. Thank you for this EXCELLENT video! Keep 'em coming.

For the record, I currently have a 7.1.4. Atmos setup with Focal trio 11s except ceiling speakers and sub. You're right, this shit is expensive and the first thing I did was figure out how to spit out an "old school" stereo mix in P.T.. I definitely agree with everything you said with one exception.... Obviously, I produce in different genres but, I think producers of Hip Hop and/or EDM are not concerned with where the band is positioned (there is no band) so, most electronic producers will automate panning as an effect as opposed to something they're looking at. All that being said, I will place the main parts of the song in fixed positions and then use motion to make the "FX" pieces more interesting. All the while keeping stereo for the meat and potatoes. Great video! very thought provoking

Awesome video! I guess you read mind! Wow, I’ve been engineering since the 80s and my thoughts are the exact same thoughts. This boils down to the fact that industry is only successful when the consumer is included in these decisions for change. I remember Quadraphonic stereo and how cool it was, but even remembered saying, to enjoy this I need two more speakers and the right amps. The industry was so greedy for money they forgot to answer “how are folks going to consume our product?” Or “how will folks benefit from our product?” One example of change that did answer how customers will benefit, was the introduction of the .mp3 format. Yea the quality is lower, but the industry realized that most consumers prefer convenience (in this case more song storage) over quality. I just laugh at the whole thing and say, how many consumers have an ATMOS system to listen to ATMOS music……hardly any. Granted there is that demographic of people that just wants to be a part of the latest fad…even if there is no true benefit…..like buying a sound bar and thinking you will get surround sound or upgrading studio gear when you haven’t mastered or grown out of what you currently have. Knowledge is key. Beautiful looking studio by the way!

The biggest push with Atmos is in the headphone space with Apple’s AirPods, as they have real time computation for things like head tracking or device position relative to the headphones. It’s a gimmicky experience (I personally detest it). My guess is this is how 99% of consumers interact with Atmos mixes apples. AirPods are a larger business than all of Spotify and several other tech companies combined. Im not one for conspiracies but Apple went all in on atmos and thus spotify was a me too, which the record companies supported as it does create a barrier. Inevitably though what we will get is just a bunch of subpar mixes for atmos from smaller artists.

Great video Devon. I agree with you. And I'm not investing in Atmos until I have WAY more than 0% of my clients asking for it (which is the current percentage). Could you provide links to your sources for the statement made at 12:26 that Spotify and Apple Music now require Atmos mixes? This is the first I've heard of this and I can't find any indication of this in their delivery specs. My clients are currently submitting stereo masters to both of these platforms with no problems. Thanks!

I have an Atmos setup, and I love it. I think it’s here to stay, but I totally agree with you. It’s not needed when I come to music. When it comes to cinema, it’s amazing. The rap music analogy is a bit out of place, but I know what you are trying to say. Great video 🎉

Great thoughts Devon, really appreciated. I clearly remember listening to Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon, on a vinyl quad record player in the 70's (with quad headphones) and was amazing. But improving on stereo, as you pointed out with 5.1 etc etc doesn't seem to stick. So let's see. I do see ATMOS mix required for film sound tracks that's for sure, and that's what I'm focusing on now (amazing point you made about pre-mixed ATMOS music only being played in stereo in movie theatres - let's see if I can put some 'instrument effects' in the rear).

Excellent Appreciation. I once saw a KZfaq video declaring Home Studios will disappear soon due to Atmos Technology.Particularly myself, and many of my Left and Right customers are not afraid of it. We are still working hard to get a Mud Free, Sparkling Stereo Mix.

Analyse très interessante et pertinente mon ami Very interesting and relevant analysis my friend

I'm sorry for a long post ahead, but I personally love ATMOS for music (and I'm not being "sponsored" to say that either, just so you know), though I listen primarily on Apple Music through Apple's AirPods Pro (AirPods Max, from what I understand are better) with head tracking on (I recommend this if you want the best AirPods experience), which I think is what music streaming services are aiming for with ATMOS/Spatial/360 Audio. Unless you're an audiophile, not everyone can afford a 7.1.4 speaker setup (unless you're a movie buff), whereas anyone can afford a set of ear/headphones (which, I think, answers your "Venue of listening" question) or speakers like HomePods or Sonos, though I don't believe it sounds good coming from laptop/computer/phone speakers. When I listen to a lot of Spatial Audio mixes (yes, some mixes aren't too good), I actually find it gives more room for instruments and voices to be heard. The two Elton John songs from "The Lion King" are a great example (the choir is so much more pronounced) and I don't know if I could go back to listening to them in standard stereo. Even Elton's "Rocket Man" sounds great! A lot of songs on his "Diamonds (Deluxe)" compilation sound great, as does Spice Girls "Wannabe" and some of Michael Jackson's "Thriller" album uncover sounds you can't hear in the stereo version because they've been buried among layers of other instruments. Being hearing impaired, a surround sound room is useless for me, even with movies. I can understand artists and producers/engineers being concerned about mixing in the format because of the expense of it all. I do know that when I do eventually put music out into the world, there'll be an ATMOS and Stereo mix. My ATMOS mixes would be done primarily in headphones, but should transfer to 7.1.4 easily. I don't view ATMOS as a fad or gimmick at all, as long as it's done properly. However, if the streaming services are putting out a rule preventing people putting out music without an ATMOS mix, that is unfair. Going back to the Elton John Lion King songs, if you listen with AM with either AirPods sets, the choir sounds like it's coming from behind you, but turn your head left/right, the choir will play through one ear or the other. I'm trying to look at this from the consumer's perspective who can't afford/don't want a massive surround room. In saying all this, unless Apple and other streaming services partner with hearing aid manufacturers to bring ATMOS streaming to hearing aids, those users will always be listening in stereo, even with movies. I guess I'm a little tired of hearing of people talking like surround sound rdesigned rooms or venues are the "one and only" way of listening to ATMOS music. While I love both Stereo and ATMOS, they're not going to help people who acquire one-sided hearing, which is where Mono mixes will come in handy. I've said my say.

Gratitude & Appreciation💯

I also like the tech even though it seems like a new gate of entry. I’ve been mixing stereo and atmos at the same time trying to figure it out ( monitoring only in a stereo fold ). My theory if it folds to stereo decent like stereo needs to fold to mono decently. I’m good with it for now.

Wow! Wonderful analysis! Thanks for enlightening us. The core of music is melody, rhythm and harmony not speaker systems. If business people are trying to be the main influence in musicians work they will ultimately fail

Atmos makes sense for cinema, but don’t see it taking off in the consumer realm. Back when DVD technology was new, I was part of a team working on audio decoder chips for DVD players. Many multichannel high resolution formats were poised to become the new cool listening experience. What took off instead were mp3 files. The public wanted convenience and portability instead of something that required them to be in the perfect listening position in order to experience it. I can see it being a great experience for certain types of music, but I can’t see most of the public really caring.

What if you have music placed for film. Would you want ATMOS for it then??

Hi Devon, thanks for a daring video.I would agree with almost everything you've said with the exception of one thing; I've made a career for over the past 25 years on designing and building Home Theatres. Although most of those were for upper end income earners, still quite a few "regular" home owners have installed home theaters. So maybe in the sense that the majority of the public, those and Dolby Atmos is a moot point. As far as sound considerations: I've been a diehard 2 channel guy all my life and have the luxury of owning a very expensive dedicated room for same. Without question, I think Atmos is great for movies. Movies have sounds coming from all around you almost all the time, just the addition of 2 ceiling speakers adds a 3 dimensionality that adds considerably to the experience. However, getting those parameters correct in most people's homes is not likely to happen under most conditions. I would agree that music comes from in front of the listener for the most part, but if you add surround ambience to the playback it brings the listener closer to a "live" event feeling, most stereo mixes miss the mark for this. That being said, it's a big price to pay for both the creators and the final users to have that added dimension. From a business model I don't see it being practical thus alluding to the "Industry Control" you were mentioning. Not good ...Some genres like electornica / EDM, etc, lend themselves very well to an "immersive" experience, but just like the invention of "stereo" recording and playback, it's being misused and abused for general music playback, sounds just do NOT come at you in real life that way. So you ARE RIGHT, music wasn't intended to be experienced that way! Holding any of the surround recording processes to a standard outside the recording studio is almost impossible at the consumer end short of the most elite Home Theatres costing above $100K! As a music lover, AV designer, and aspiring musician, I would love any advancement with the recording and playback processes. I can design a 2 channel room that comes very close to sounding like the, "you are there" experience, but it isn't inexpensive. The only point it falls a little short on would be the complex ambient trails / reverb of the venue it was performed in / recording shortcomings aside. It would be nice to maybe have just 2 above rear speakers which could add to ambience with proper time alignment ! Though we may not see a musical future for Atmos, we are currently living in a world of non reality which most people seem to be aspiring to .... I'll add, I think it's disgusting to block artists from publishing thier music for not producing in Atmos !! Let's start a new format for that !! audio by di tomasso

I solely listen to stereo, from stereo speakers linked to my stereo system. I consume music via CDs, and i have no intentions of ever changing that. Plus today's my first time hearing of ATMOS, and will hopefully be also the last time.

totally agree. seems like theyre trying to price out the home studio to keep the big ones in business since home studios have become so good.

You make some excellent points, many of which I agree with. I do have an Atmos layout in my studio and I mix primarily in 3rd order Ambisonics and have been doing so for several years now. I have Blue Ripple decoders that can produce a Dolby Atmos bed if I want to but in reality, almost all of my audience will listen to my music in stereo. If successful binaural headphone decoding that suits any pair of ears can be achieved in future, that could be a legitimate and practical way for many more to hear my Ambisonic mixes. I don't need Dolby Atmos for that though. I can go directly from 3D ambisonics to binaural. This whole Atmos thing sounds like a desperate attempt by the industry to keep their exclusive club treading water to survive. We don't need them.

I think one point that gets missed is that Atmos in the context of delivery does not specify the number of channels. You can happily mix 2.1 all day long. They simply want projects delivered in a mulitichannel capable format. It is not a fixed format. Think of it as a container format. With this in mind your investment really becomes the cost of an encoder. Most f the consumption now is sound bars, earbuds and headphones. I don’t understand all the worry about this. Keep happily mixing in stereo make killer music. Worst case scenario you are out a couple hundred bucks.

End user here: can't wait to upgrade my surround setup to Atmos next year. After years of enjoying a full-range stereo setup I've come to realise it is barely scratching the surface of what sound reproduction can do. Regardless of how giant a leap it was, it is still only a single step up from mono

I absolutely agree with you on all aspects. As you I have a lot invested in my studio and I don't see ATMOS as an upgrade for most end users of music. Personally I'd rather have 2 masters cut - one for digital stereo and one for vinyl - to accommodate those who enjoy consuming music on that (old school audiophiles and dj's I suppose), than have stereo and Atmos 🤷🏻‍♂ Right now the whole fight on whether to adapt to ATMOS or not must be huge amongst manufacturers of everything from in-ears to headphones to speakers etc. - I think it will end up as 5.1/7.1 surround as something that works well for home cinema use (and professional venues) and not much else, unless 90+% of the big players on the audio-market decide to go all in on the music side of it (and most of them have so much invested in stereo that it'll be a huge risk in investment for them). To be honest I hope it'll end up as an option for those who choose to listen that way and definitely not replace stereo in any way - but I guess we'll see... Thanks for great content- you just got yourself a new subscriber.🎧

Can anyone actually point to any documentation from any of the steaming services that actually states that Atmos is a new requirement? I mix in Atmos (because it's likely the future...and it's awesome when done well), but I have yet to hear anything above the rumour level of any requirements from any of the streams.

Mono to stereo was an amazing experience. Stereo to 5.1 was ok. As mentioned in another comment, I do not sit and listen to music unless I am meditating and thus lying perfectly still and just letting the music be absorbed. It is in the background usually 24/7 playing mostly electronic tunes by JMJ, TD, Kraftwerk etc.

from a guy that done technology&music production courses u spot on sir

If I mix in Logic using the binuaral headphone emulation and I export it in the Atmos file format will this be something that would be acceptable by the streaming platforms Apple and Spotify when it becomes a standard with them?

I have a pair of Sonos Era 300s with Atmos compatibility & "height" drivers, exclusively for streaming music. Sounds pretty good, better than stereo mostly but not what I'd call "immersive". More just like a very high quality "Stereo Wide" switch. When I go back to stereo from Atmos, I do notice it, but not for very long.

You summarized it very well: Atmos is a mix of a gatekeeper drive by the big player distributors, assisted by gatekeeping ambitions by high level facilitators (producion and mixing facilies rendered obsolete by the "democratization" of the art and craft of mixing - applauded by a hardware industry that didn't have a revolutionary selling point (like HDTV, Dolby 5.1, CD) for years. Ask yourself how many of your friends and family will say to themselves "Sure, I'm just going to nail myself to this listening position for the duration of this playlist". For better or for worse, those days are over. Flexibiliy, mobility is key. I yet have to find a single atmos mix that sounds better on headphones than the stereo mix.

Old-school stereo mixer here 🙋🏻‍♂️. Can someone tell me what the best way to listen to Atmos is (without sitting in an actual Atmos studio)? Like for the end user? Because whenever I listen to Apple Music spatial audio on my Gen 1 AirPods Pro, it sounds absolutely terrible. The music is still in front of me, but it’s now a mushy phasey mess. What am I doing wrong? Do I need new AirPods Max? Should I be using Tidal?

I understand for music, but I like immersive sound. Also for the upcoming Apple Vision Pro. However I create sound effects and might hear things differently.

Stereo is 5 separation of sound dimension Left and right 2 Mid mono 1 Side left right in a 2 dimension

haha love the rappers surround part ! i think this will be used more on VR experiences, simulating speakers position by a combination of software and hardware. An it will be a complement a way to ad value from artists creating content on those formats. I don't think i will be mandatory but will be some kind of standard for VR and AR content. Cheers!

I believe It will always fall back to the lowest common denominator. I think it will go the way of Quad, 5.1 and other feeble attempts. Accessibility will always rule the day.

Stereo and mono for life gang!

You are absolutely right with regards to being corralled into using Atmos but there is a work around. If you have Logic Pro X - for example - Atmos renderer is included in the program. I would do a stereo mix as normal and then bounce down group stems -vocals, backing vocals guitars, drums, bass, keys, fx etc - to 48kHz 24bit 24 fr and do an extra mix in Atmos surround in Logic on headphones. No extra costs except maybe for better headphones. Atmos spatial is normal for Apple headphones now. It’s not so difficult. “Henny Penny the sky is NOT falling!”

The comparison to 3D-TV is perfect. This is at most a gimmick that people will go "wow" when they hear at first. But mostly people don't want the guitar in one corner and the drums in the other - or instruments flying around the room from one side to the other. I do some DJing and PA work too how are we gonna deal with it there??

Sir remember DVD Audio and DTS music or check out Grover Washington Jr. Wine Light in surround sound. Or SADE Life Promise back than, was great to me not Dolby Atmos. I do completely agree with you.

Great Points! I think a lot of people believe ATMOS is not happing. I just recently released music and submitting a ATMOS mix was currently just a option. There was a lot of fine print to read also. I hope it hurries up and dies like all the other (surround sound) tries from the past.

Mix in stereo, someone make a stereo to atmos mixdown plugin. Honestly atmos sounds cool for about 1 minute " wow shit is above me and behind me" and then i want to actually have a focus point to enjoy the music. We are focus/aim based humans, I wonder who is gonna wait for the " Man I love this part, it's gonna spin around the top of your head and distract you from what's happening".

100% agree with you

Dude, I just discovered your channel about 30 minutes ago. This is the second video I've been through you and I'm highly enjoying your content. I've been shaking out my boots about Atmos and thinking that I need to go back to Fullsail lol just for the free classes again, which is one benefit they gave you, but I totally agree unless you're doing something like Pink Floyd or just one of my favorite bands ever ever this technology is probably gonna be useless and it is trying to be us as away for the elitist to take over. I've worked on many great films in my lifetime Lord of the rings, Batman, animated series, etc., etc. and recorded many good albums and I never needed Atmos so honestly, I don't think I need it now . Before hearing this, I must admit I was absolutely terrified.

Spacial audio for apple and beats might be a reason for such decision ..... !! Very well researched video indeed ... !! Thanks ... !!

I agree with much of what you say (especially the gate-keeping aspect), but as someone who listens to Atmos a lot (streaming on Tidal), I can tell you that there are aspects to this experience that are truly amazing. I'm not talking about gimmicky sounds zooming around, I mean low-end that is warm and full because it no longer has to compete with the rest of the mix in the stereo field. Also, the elements of the song can be left to sound full and natural (no more scooping, over-compressing, ducking required to make room for other things in the mix). As a result, you have an experience that is warm and enveloping in a way that was not possible before, and this is something you want more of (or at least I do). Now maybe it won't catch on and will go the way of 5.1, but I hope it doesn't because as a musician and creator I can tell you that writing for Atmos is unbelievably fun, even on my low-budget cobbled together 7.1.4 studio setup. Stereo will never go away, but assuming that prices come down on consumer home theater systems, and binaural rendering for headphones continues to improve at the rate it has been, we could be living in a brave new world where Atmos and stereo can live together in harmony.

I have a question about using Dolby Atmos as a tool to look into a proof of concept for object oriented live music delivery in large live venues. The problem we are addressing is where the venue needs multiple speakers to provide the required SPL, detail can be lost. For example, many musicians report that, when playing large venues, they have to simplify some of their parts because the more complex elements of the music get lost in these performances. The assumption we are making is that the brain has difficulty in processing the multiple path lengths of the audio from the line arrays. The brain can handle multiple path lengths, and does so every time we are in a room. The assumption that we want to test is that the brain of the average audience member is not familiar with the multiple path lengths from a line array and has difficulty processing this information. This produces the result that clarity is lost on the audience. The solution would be to have single speakers for each performer. Then have multiple speakers in the venue, preferably at the walls of the venue where the audio for each performer is delayed by the path length from each performer to each loudspeaker. d&b audiotechnik have already been doing something similar to this for several years for theatre productions. We want to test our assumption. It is possible that this problem is due to different issues such as bad acoustics, for example. So rather than write our own code to test this, it would be good to use something like Dolby Atmos or Ambisonics to provide the calculations for delay for each object (performer) to each speaker. We would not need to use the ceiling speakers for this just the side and back speakers. The question is: can Dolby Atmos provide a condition where we can align the delays from each object to produce a coherent waveform from each loudspeaker in a live venue? Given that cinema theatres have different dimensions, does Dolby Atmos provide a way of dealing with these delay calculations? Or would we need to place our speakers in specified location? Which would not be a problem for us, we would just stick to the specified placements of the speakers. The main argument against using distributed speakers is that the many speakers will interfere with each other. It is possible that d&b audiotechnik has already proven this to be wrong, but it would be good to prove this ourselves for the case of live music with our loudspeakers, which have been designed with this issue in mind. The other questions we need to answer are, does the audience or performers care about being able to solve this problem? It’s better to find the answers to these questions by using someone else’s software rather than writing our own.

I’m a mix engineer who is also a home theater enthusiast. My studio is only stereo but my home theater is a 7.3.4 Atmos setup. It is a really enjoyable experience watching movies on Atmos, especially the ones with reference quality Atmos mixes. I have some music tracks on these demo discs that are mixed in Atmos. They are very cool but I don’t feel the need to listen to music in Atmos as much as watching movies. Of course it would be cool to convert my studio to Atmos and offer mixes in that format but I’m not itching to do it enough to make the huge investment. I’ve never thought of the top down thing not working in Atmos. I have a few plug-ins always always on my stereo buss and I do feel they are vital to my mixes. It is weird that they don’t have a way to do that for Atmos. Maybe there is, we just don’t know it.

I can't find any info about this. Where does Spotify list the Atmos requirement?

In my ideal tiny little world we would finally adopt a non licence-protected spacial audio format as a standard (maybe Ambisonics or an improved version of it, since the patents run out) which maybe even has some EQ, compression or even effects parametrised and would improve over time but stay compatible and software upgradeable. And let's assume the issues for proper music representation and also of different microphone types are ironed out (unlike Atmos). This way we could detach the channels from the speakers and to an extent the sound from the speaker type and setup but the music could still be mastered as it is intended to be listened to by the artists and the engineers (being it 1-n sources, in one or multiple points, distributed on a line or in 3D space). But at the same time we would gain the possibility to listen to music/film audio in any setup the best way the setup can reproduce it given that the equipment is configured and set up well by the manufacturer and the cosnumer (e.g. downmix spacial audio to a two speaker setup or properly represent the same music in binaural headphones or a multi speaker room environment) without having to master for high end setups, cheap speakers, stereo, multispeaker, car audio or headphones. Further more we could also create spacial mixes later on from the same audio material if we want to. Higher end setups can adapt mastering parameters to represent best the room and speaker accoustics instead of EQ them out of an already baked in final mix. A bit like vector graphics compared to fixed resolution bitmaps or parametric CAD models compared to surface modelling. Brands like Dolby, THX and who else feels keen to can still license specifically tailored equipment and setups or setup standards to studios, cinemas and homeuser equipment as before, but hardware does not become obsolete all the time because the locked in, licensed DSP is not compatible with the latest format. But I don't see this happen as still less licences would be sold in the end and as you analysed this is also an industry lock-in scheme to keep small producers out. My biggest fear is that Atmos will end up becoming the same shit show for music as it happened with all prior surround formats for films where stereo or surround was thrown at cheap upmix algorythms to generate washed out results, but which still complied to the shiny new format.

i live in the attic 5x4 meter and 2.5 meters angled high room filled with 9.1 sistem . using music decoder from 2.0 audio to 9.1. but its hard eq~ed to sound good for music.

For stereo format I do like sacd in 24 bit 96 khz . The best to me.

What made this whole thing make a tiny bit of sense to me is the binaural mode, that you can listen to and mix on headphones, even though it's probably a similar experience to the sound bars, where it's sort of faking the 3D. So my take now is that while the home studios and indies won't be as locked out of this as I initially thought, there is still a fair bit of gatekeeping because you'll end up with 2 kinds of Atmos mixes; the big budget mixes done in the big rooms that will sound weird in headphones, and then the headphone mixes intended specifically for the Spotify and Apple users listening in earbuds, that will sound weird in the big rooms. So... 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ Oh and I was made aware of this by a producer friend, but as a consumer, this was absolutely out of my radar, and I never would have cared outside of a mixing perspective. Stereo just works, and this... in a few decades maybe, but right now it's gimmicky and untested in a mass consumer setting

Just found your channel. Great Stuff... Instant Sub... Have A Safe 4th

We have a genlec atoms setup in our studio specifically for the games industry. Of course at the start I mixed music on it. But when i tested to hear what it would a atoms sounds like folded to stereo, it was bloody awful. Of course. The eq for stereo is different that full spectrum atoms

Great video. Atmos is an attempt by the major labels to wrestle back some of the control and profits they lost when music became more democratized with the advent of desktop music production. It also appears to be an attempt by Apple to solidify their position in personal audio by differentiating Airpods, HomePods, and now their new AR headset. Of course, when Apple gets behind anything everyone else jumps in line to get their piece of the pie. It all reeks of corporate greed and is good for neither consumers nor artists. The good news is that the need to install 12 speakers in a living room is a non-starter for 99% of people, and Atmos on headphones is gimmicky and not even as good as stereo in most cases. My guess is that it will eventually fade away like other esoteric audio technologies that people never asked for and were ultimately unwilling to pay for.

ATMOS is the classic 'solution looking for a problem.' I produce music and have a fairly hi-end (turntable, DAC, tube amp, etc) listening system in my living room and I will never invest $$$ into something like ATMOS as a consumer or producer. Devon, I agree...it's a total money grab by corporations.

First off, thanks for adding to the discussion as to whether we need atmos or not. I'm an immersive artist/mixer and I have HUGE doubts. Regarding the mix buss conversation, he's not entirely right. Cubase/nuendo can easily create an immersive mix bus. Anyway ... I really appreciate this vid. I also disagree about the stems comment at the end. A true immersive mix requires much more differentiation than what stems can provide. On the other side of the coin ... the end-user side, Atmos is a bit of a tech and $$$ nightnare. Getting the tech right in the studio requires a LOT of dedication and attention to detail (which is always a good thing) .... but one small mistake on the tech side can be fatal. Let's not even talk about the binaural fold downs, as the Dolby binaural renderer (in my experience) can be a sonic nightmare.

Apple recently announced the Vision Pro headset to come out next year. It’s supposed to have there best ever Dolby Atmos spatial audio system built in, that can specially adapt to the acoustics of any room. Not for anyone though, especially for the price. How ever the price is a lot less than a real Dolby Atmos system. Something to think about for now…

I look at this different, i love atmos! We need to think of how people enjoy music today, personally i think musicians need to start making music more visual. Live concerts, live studio sessions. Kids dont listen to music mainly because its not on KZfaq. Haha

I still have my sacd 5.1 Nine inch nails album from around 2000’. It was awesome on my home theater back then. I was actually hoping trent would be making Atmos content since he is usually experimenting with whatever is available. I think certain music might be more exciting to mix in atmos like electronic or pop where you can get a little more creative maybe with how you use sounds than say a typical band might be mixed. I have a basic atmos setup now with 2 height channels and im working on a decent 7.2.4 setup now. As far as I understand it 7.4 plus 1 or 2 sub channels would be the standard for music and film. But Im really liking some albums already and it’s not even setup the best right now so I cant wait to hear things in 7.2.4 when my new system is completed.

Great video 😊 As you say, the thing to bear in mind from the Apple, Spotify perspective is that these companies rely on the millions of indie artists who supply content. The Atmos compatibility stipulation will deny access to their bread and butter artists, primarily home recordists and small label run creators. If the Atmos policy did come into operation it would be gentrifying the music industry, the antithesis of Rock n Roll and at its offshoots!

I would assume Apple and Spotify require the music to be in Atmos format and don't care how you have actually panned it. You could create an Atmos format file with everything panned to the front left and right speakers and be compliant. I believe licenced Atmos plugins are available for most DAWs for $2 - $3 hundred dollars.

Hi man. I think you are spot on with your assessment, gatekeepers want to regain more control over the industry. Nice one for the Bob Horn experience, I think Atmos will only survive as a plaything for the rich.

spot on man!!! it's another way to try to make money from people who think they have a home studio and think they know what they're doing because they watched a couple of "tutorial" videos on youtube....

go to music streaming services that don't require atmos then, wherever the consumer goes, the industry will follow, look at napster, they fought it, now it's mainstream. I use tidal, cd's or vinyl mostly. And I do have all the surrounds in my house I love immersive music & just getting into immersive theater / projection. but I mostly listen to music in 2 channel or quad now through my black ice preamp, sounds great, soundstage is amazing.