cody schwab

If we allow boxx we have to allow button remapping on vanilla controller. boxx is literally remapping every button.

my hands hurt just watching all this claw

i literally saw the take "learning to mitigate hand pain with the default control scheme is part of what being good at melee is all about," and man, thats just never been whats beautiful about the game to me or part of why i respect any individual player. Melee is about input timing and decision making, and z jump players have to execute and make decisions just like everyone else. It's not on the same level as notches or box's digital inputs that remove a layer of precision from the game. Implementing it on the software side could be as simple as adding a button combination that switches Z with your desired jump button during the loading screen.

I never understood the argument against specific button mapping. As long as nobody uses macros I don't see any problem.

First off Z jump needs to be a software mod not a hardware one that way everyone has access to it maybe add it do a new version of UCF or slippi so the general melee community can see how it feels. Hax adding Z-Jump to his mod melee 1.03 made it accessible to everyone however we do not play on that version of the game unfortunately

All I learned here is that you can change your button mapping on slippi. Thats lit bc I started with ult and want to go back to having my layout from there.

I want to move my character with the cstick

Agree with most points except the boxx ones. Your argument that KJH is arguing in bad faith because he doesn't play claw, is the same bad faith that you have against boxx because you don't play on boxx.

On the "I dont want to use L" point, I always found it funny how I meet melee players who are like "My L/X button has never been touched". Im obviously not even remotely close to a high level competitor, nor do I main a demanding tech skill character; however, I intuitively made the decision when learning to use both shield buttons and both jump buttons for different situations, because it is just easier on the hands. Melee players say hand pain is such a problem (and it is) but also many people just not using all the buttons on the controller cause they learned one way and just dont want to when the resources are right there lol

I think this video addresses things pretty well. One thing i will disagree with is the idea that we could potentially do a "purist" wipe back to OEMs only. Even if we say "only OEMs" there's still just so so many variables we have to think about. In an OEM only world: Are cut trigger springs legal? Are removed trigger springs legal? Are swapped trigger springs legal if the springs came from another OEM GCC? Are aftermarket buttons and sticks legal? Can I replace my mushy worn out button pads with new third party ones? Can I use mouseclick face buttons? Can I swap my analog stick with a c stick? Still all OEM parts Can I replace my mushy ass z button switch with a nicer one? What if the new switch isn't OEM? What if it is? What if the switch is an OEM from Nintendo but from a Wii controller?? Can I replace my analog stick pots? Do they have to be OEM still? Can I use Wii controller parts like stick boxes from Wii pro controllers? It's OEM but not GameCube OEM. Can I use Wii sticks? Can I remove my rumble motor? If not, can I disconnect it? If neither, is an OEM that has a naturally broken rumble motor still legal? Can I trim the inside of the shell to prevent stuck triggers? Technically an advantage over raw OEM. Are trigger plugs legal? Can I z jump? It's just a wiring mod you can do on OEM, after all. Are snapback capacitors legal? And the final most important question for the true longevity of the scene that no one seems to talk about. What the fuck do we do when there aren't enough good OEMs left anymore? There's no easy way out where we don't have to deal with all the little things unfortunately. I wish there was an easy blanket answer but there simply isn't

Loving all the KZfaq content from you lately !!!

Sick video Cody! I really like hearing you talk about things like this!

So who’s iBDW again?

By no means is this video meant to attack anyone directly. I've heard a lot of misinformation going around, and while I don't claim to be correct about everything, I do claim to have done a lot of research and have played both claw and z-jump in my career, and feel that a lot of the discussion surrounding this hasn't been fair to all parties involved. This is meant to clear up my biggest issues with the current consensus going around among top players and spectators alike. I'm open to any good faith discussion as to why people disagree or whatever questions they have. Please be reasonable in comments and I'll try to get back to everyone. Again, I am NOT attacking anyone specifically, I'm just getting a bit exhausted at this converesation and the fact that it never seems to move

Cody do you have/can you make a video about proper claw in regards to melee and tips you have for someone who wants to learn this grip?

Bro people are using L/R jump too which has huge upsides as well, for example triff uses L jump for all his hyper float stuff. It's only cuz #1 is using Z jump. Meanwhile mang0 was using a GOOMWAVE during his 2021 and 2022 runs when he was good actually

Comprehensive and compelling arguments! One silver lining out of the discourse on controller mods and boxes is getting to hear players like you and KJH talk about and demonstrate grips, and talk about hand health, ergonomics etc. It's hard to find good info on the subject as far as melee. I spent many years learning classical guitar (pretty formalized finger style for the picking hand) so that somewhat informed how I approach holding my controller insofar as avoiding harmful movements and habits. I am curious about just a couple of things here: You mention one of the disadvantages of Z jump (and I assume regular non-claw) is having to use your thumb to ASDI and give up momentary access to the face buttons. Do you have any thoughts on using the base of the thumb for C-stick? (I roughly place my entire thumb along C, B, A, and Y. ) Do you see any merits to standard Z? I remember there was some talk way back about whether or not it was the best way to L-cancel but I can't remember anything about that. Sorry for the tome. Hope people get something out of this

button remapping is a feature in later smash games, so its hard to say that z jumping goes against the spirit of the series or something

Great video. Just want to point out that many of your arguments defending Z jump also apply to rectangles. We all want to preserve our hand health. There must be a fair way to balance them without making them "irrelevant." Cheers from Austria

Why don't you recommend analog stick u-smash? That's what I do currently so curious for my own sake

What if I tap jump

I switched from default grip to permanent claw grip for hand health in 2015. When I use a GCC I have right hand index on Y, thumb for C stick/B/A, middle finger on Z, and ring finger on R. I have pretty tiny hands compared to most men, so it's actually a very relaxed and easy hand position for me. It almost looks like I have my hand on a keyboard or box controller. I am utterly shocked that some of the best players in the world think that claw grip is not effectively the same as z jump is bizarre. Also, I do think it's funny that some top players say that claw grip is not a good argument for why z jump should be legal because claw grip causes hand pain. But, they also say that hand pain is not a good argument to keep box legal in some capacity.

Cody schwab

if only Hax$ wasn't so fucking crazy and then we all can play on 1.03 with button mapping

Im personally not an enjoyer of Cody’s gameplay or someone who roots for fox very often, but I agree with this stance 100%. His results are his own, and Z jump should never be used to discredit someone’s skill or results. Good video 👍

I'm of the mind that as long as analog inputs are not being assigned to a button, any button layout should be allowed. Does someone want X as grab? Let them. Gatekeeping because of tradition is will keep players out of our community. BOXX is a slightly different argument, since the ability to SDI accomplishes the impossible. Speedrunning has had similar conundrums, which is where I am basing my opinion. Notches are also slightly different, since at times they are adjacent to a macroed angle. I advocate in favor of notches, since the input still has to be done in a very stressful moment. The onus is still on the player to perform, unlike a true macro.

default grip is claw lmfao

I would love a hand cam stream/video

Claw is definitely bad for the hands, I kinda think everyone should have the option to Z jump if they want.

What are your thoughts on adding custom controls in the game

how does one actually rebind it in slippi like you say?

I don't think It's in bad faith and it's not biased to say that Z-Jump provides an advantage over claw grip if your only counterpoint is that you think people just don't want to put in the effort to learn claw when there's valid reason for this. I definitely think that people who are saying you are a cheater is wrong and they're just salty. You practiced a lot with something and put in the work for sure. but I do feel that changing one button can make a massive difference especially in the case of Z-Jump and the evidence is there. I've tried to learn claw, and while you're right that learning anything that uses different muscles in a different way will incur some fatigue, the difference between the comfort of Z-jump and the discomfort/disadvantages of using claw is pretty much night and day and you even point this out at the very end of the video "I play like this so my hands don't die on me" which obviously implies that you see the ergonomic benefits of Z jump which is a benefit, period. That being said, I definitely think that you don't get to where you are just because of something like that. You've definitely mastered it and deserve your achievements, but the obvious simple fix to this would just be to allow button remapping and then this entire discussion would go away because the paygate/barrier to entry for melee JUST from a controller perspective is incredibly high which. I'll be quite honest, out of all the fighting games I am into/follow, the melee community is the only one that is largely unregulated when it comes to controllers versus games like SF/Tekken/MK, etc. which have clear requirements for the accepted controllers/specifications for their games. My last point is that you can give anyone the same tools as you have and I guarantee they won't make it as far nor even come close, but we need to stop looking at the problems and start finding the solution which I think is painfully obvious.

Going from standard to permaclaw took me a year to learn after years of standard grip muscle memory. I put in the time because I wanted to be able to do certain tech that was impossible to do with a standard grip. Z jump to me just seems like a permaclaw grip that's not taxing on hands, that's it. These people have no idea that permaclaw players have been living the z jump life this whole time.

The melee community never ceases to amaze me....the whole argument is so hypocritical and ironic to listen to. Why is this even a thing at all? Why is playing a certain way considered "cheating" to people. Cody defends Z jumping (even though you need to literally mod a controller to make Z jump a thing) and mentions its to create less stress in the hands. But yet BOXX controllers are "cheating". If you're telling me it's your job to be the best at something, and it's the reason you make a living, I don't want to hear it. If BOXX controller are cheating, and OP, then why not switch to it? top 50 players would become the best players in the world, so why not do it? Easy. Because it's really FUCKING hard. and on the contrary of what Cody is saying...the boxx has pros and cons to it. there are things easier done on the boxx, but there are things that are much harder to do on the boxx. Dont believe me? look up how to do tilts, or even better, fire fox angles. You literally have to hold in up to 4 different buttons (not including the buttons to activate FF) for a single angle, does that sound easier to you? This video is literally Kalindi, talking about something he doesn't understand, with Cody talking about something he doesn't fully understand. This is insanity.

Thumbnail game is on point with this one. Good discussion too! Thanks Cody n team :).

Cant u just do instant uairs by hitting up on the stick and then pressing a or z as soon as u can aerial? Thats what i do to get ac upair with ics or to get early upairs with falco to get people on plats

I pretty much had to give up melee because of hand pain which years ago is never something I thought I would say. I used normal grip and I could SH aerial with c-stick, but it was hell on the wrist and thumb, the sheer amount of work the left thumb has to do especially if you want to SDI effectively left it unusable for work or just in too much pain. The pain got to be chronic and a month long break from Melee fixed it, making me realize Melee was ultimately the problem and I had to quit for my own health. Grips and controllers matter. I can play SF, Tekken, GG, etc, on Keyboard with 0 pain even after many hours. I have even tried Melee a bit both on a b0xx style layout and using the analog function of my keyboard to move that way. Xbox controller seems to be less painful so I will try that for Rivals 2, and maybe even for Melee. These are simply the realities we have to deal with when it comes to Melee as we as players continue to age with the game, and the tech skill required becomes continuously higher.

As a person who destroyed my hands using gamecube controllers my whole life. I’m disappointed on this guys take. You don’t want to learn Z-jump so nobody else should?! Well I didn’t want to learn how to use a pro controller in ultimate but I DID IT so I could CONTINUE to be able to enjoy this game I love. I’m UNABLE to even grip a gamecube controller for an hour anymore.

i don't see why we can't remap everything, or use different controllers or add new buttons like an extra z button on the left side.

I think melee should be played however someone wants

Cory schwab

I wish I could Z jump without a phob

Hello Cody and Viewers I don’t know if anyone has seen my comment on Cody’s Twitter but I think the argument that z-jump over claw is purely ergonomic is flawed. RT between the two is inherently different therefore making z-jump better by having a lower RT threshold. With z-jump being effectively better what essentially happens is we have created yet another new adaption to controllers that proves better than all current existing methods which I think leads to some pretty open ended questions. Thank you for reading and I hope Cody gets the ability to read and respond!

I 100% agree Cody, great explanations and points 👍

tbh i dont think the average person should be so invested on controller mods if winning isnt even on the horizons for them

imo if you allow notches you pretty much have to allow z jump

There is no difference between z jump and claw. The only difference comes down to personal preference. Play the game how you wish. No one should be judged. And for top level play, z jump should 100% be allowed at any standpoint to bring out the best of players because in the end, it’s personal preference.

When you become a top player, you definitely put a target on your back. Look at Hbox's reign being #1 and people constantly talking about Jiggs. Maybe it's legitimate discussion, maybe it's not, either way, being #1 makes you a target.

Mang0 Winning Collision? 👀

Why can't we just use melee 1.04 and call it a day..?

bro you look fine, the worst thing is the cam quality

10:42 Hit the nail on the head. I feel like it's just ridiculous to ban this or claim someone is only winning because of this single button remap. I'm in the camp that has clawed their whole life, and I don't like using Z-jump. I don't see or experience any tangible benefit in any area that isn't hand health and comfort. Cody was a top player for years before using Z-jump. It's pretty wack to say that he's only doing so well now because of Z-jump and not because of literally every other thing he's done to improve at the game. Same goes for box players. "You're only doing good because (this)" to me is a textbook John. We shouldn't be forced to hurt our hands to play a party game released over 20 years ago. It's ludicrous. It feels like we aren't even talking about the game anymore sometimes, instead just about how we play it. It's getting a bit old. Let people play.

cody sbop

no we really don't

I cannot play claw its too uncomfortable and I'm not ever gonna compete so I don't see the point for semi-casual players to play claw, i can understand if you're trying to play tournaments but man people played claw when I used to play call of duty and even back then I didn't get it.

its very simple, an ergonomic advantage is a competitive advantage practicing responsibly is part of the competition

Yes, thank you, Z jump should be banned. Thank you for taking this stance despite KJH using z-jump. It's about time we had this conversation about him and others like him like Hbox. We can't be afraid of the backlash or potential controversy and stick to our guns here. Thanks Mr. Schwab.

Yeah I truly think this whole argument against z jump is stupid. Even if it’s objectively advantageous it’s clearly not a ridiculous cheating thing to use.

Why is it called z jump

the amount of times you said objective leads me to believe that you're a based objectivist.

I think there’s two separate conversations that are being forced into the same issue. Mental stack and physical stack. If it’s a physical thing, you, as a gamer have to take care of yourself and do EVERYTHING to aid that goal. You will fail to get strong if you cannot recover. If it’s mental, I think the only thing that matters is theory and not hypotheticals. KJH was talking about the theory of switching between grips, or the advantages of playing ‘reg’ grip or Claw grip. As Cody mentions, despite being right about certain things, KJH’s theory was undeveloped and the conversation needs more theory / analytical data to show real OBJECTIVE grip differences. (BTW KJH has been posting new practice diary videos about his experiences, re-evaluating his habits and fundamental knowledge. Though he did get emotionally frustrated near the end, KJH was, imo, mostly working through their feelings about the differences and trying to steer the convo to more objective, data driven lanes. I don’t think “objective” is the right word for his video title, because I do think it’s important to think of his video more as a reflection of his grip throughout his career and it’s limitations rather then trying to really start any arguments or pick sides.)

ban notches / boxx / zjump. We shouldn't get hand pain to claw just because you can't afford a custom controller. Software fix would be the only fair solution IMO. also didn't Javi claw for his whole career and his nairs don't look like boxx / zjump nairs 🤷

Objectively, z jump is better than claw. That's why you're using it. Keep using it. Play the best melee possible.

As an ultimate player, the idea of forcing everyone to use the same button layout seems a little whack to me.

Tbh I haven’t watched the video but it feels biased from the title alone and I feel like it will alienate viewers like me just being incredibly honest here as an objective third party observer.😊

1 to 1 remap should be standard, that's it, no snap back caps, no notches only UCF and 1to1

This is interesting, so let's imagine a world where modifying the way we hold the controller is wrong. In this world, people wouldn't have beaten Tetris, because we would still have to hold the NES controller in standard grip. Rolling holds the controller in one hand while the other taps the back of the controller into faster button presses. To say that the way someone holds a controller gives them an unfair advantage is assine because practicing this new technique improves gameplay and takes it to the next level. But it's much easier to throw a pity party.

Schody cwab

It's always crazy to me how serious this game is taken. It's a good game, but saying that button layouts should not be allowed to be changed is crazy. How are people so stuck in the past

If it isn’t a natural part of the game then it shouldn’t be legal. Why is this even a conversation. Lack of accessibility means an unfair advantage to whoever has it because button remapping is not in the game. Just get better at the game instead of needing mods to baby boost you wins

You directly contradict yourself multiple times in this video

It's not in the game, rather it requires modifying your controller. It's therefore cheating.

Main problem with perma-claw is doubleshine. It's the only thing you can't really just relearn it will always be faster on standard grip/hybrid.

codys argument was all over the place so i tried to restructure and put down his points here: ######### HIS DEFINITIONS Perma-Claw - a grip that allows you do do things way easier and more reliably (ex: shorthop aerial without changing grip) - a grip that can do same things as z-jump - doesn't require controller mods Default Perma-Claw - He making points w/ assumption that default grip is: - thumb on c-stick - index finger on the face buttons - middle finger *always* on z - ring finger on r, if you desperately need to - for left side, can either do normal w/ index on L, or claw ######### HIS ARGUMENT Z-Jump Not More Difficult Execution than Claw - he doesn't think it's more difficult to execute things - he says there's not much difference between the grip of default claw he mentioned, and z-jump grip - he says if you haven't practiced it, of course it'll take up more mental stack. - he says that in terms of execution, they are no different - he doesn't see a difference in difficulty of execution, but can see the point of comfortability; most people are not used to the different motion of claw Perma-Claw Maybe Harder on Your Hands - he thinks the crux of argument is whether claw is worse for your hands than normal grip & z-jump - he says for most ppl, after getting used to proper claw, their hands will be fine - he says some other ppl, like him, got small/big hands and may start feeling pain after a while [6 yrs for him, though not all was "perma" claw] - "To me, the argument does boil down to "One might be worse for your hands."" [rather than difficulty of execution, etc ] Z-Jump Only Benefit is Hand Comfort - Why Ban? - he made points earlier on how the execution between perma-claw and z-jump are no different; anything you can do on one, you can do on the other. - so then he says the only real benefit to z-jump is not in-game, but rather a matter of comfortability - *It wouldn't be smart to lock something out [z-jump] that is used just because it is better for your hands* - he says it'd be like saying "screw you, i don't care if your hands die." ############ HIS COUNTERPOINTS TO ANTI-Z-JUMP ARGUMENTS: Unwillingness to Learn Claw Shouldn't be a Factor: He doesn't agree with ppl being really dismissive of perma-claw grip just because they don't want to learn it, or learn L jump. - he says at that point, that is a choice of preference rather than choosing to try to be better at the game - he says there are many who have not first tried this thing that will make them a better player, before making an opinion on it; he says its unproductive to argue with many ppl unwilling to seriously try the said grip, as they have no point of reference. On Accessibility to Z-Jump Mods - he recognizes the argument, but doesn't agree w/ cutting off z-jump due to the accessibility factor; he says melee scene is already far past that point where banning this due to accessibility makes sense (ex: snapback capacitors, phobs). - he says there's a lot of things that should be touched before z-jump - he says as sidenote that you can always remap in slippi and then get it modded at a tournament Initial Hand-Strain with Practicing a New Grip he says with often with trying any new grip, hand strain is not uncommon initially. - example: he had hand strain for first times he was trying z-jump - he says anytime you practice new grip, you have to start slowly - tenseness in claw could be due to imperfect grip, or bc hands not built for claw ( ex big hands) - he says ppl take the initial discomfort of a new grip as evidence, when they haven't really given it a chance On Ppl saying "Z-Jump doesn't have to switch grip" - he says there *is* a very important thing you have to switch grip for: to aSDI down in neutral - aSDI down in neutral is important thing that many players do, but he hasn't implemented it because he's making a tradeoff to rather have access to all his fingers - and bc he doesn't wanna hurt his hands, he doesn't switch grip even for that On Z-Jump taking away mental stack - i dont get what he was saying here someone help me Bad-Faith argument: unbalanced comparison - he says ppl often arguing based on their experience with a grip they haven't seriously practiced VS a grip they've used for their whole melee career - he says those ppl cannot make comparison is a good-faith way Bad-Faith argument: bad grip - some people argue that certain things are harder to do with perma-claw - claw will only be harder if you aren't doing the default claw he mentioned, where middle finger always on Z On Ppl saying thumb is stronger than index finger - he says that doesn't account for the index barely moving, while thumb would be making big motions between c-stick and face buttons ########## CONCLUSION he prefers z-jump bc it allows him to do same stuff as perma-claw but w/o hurting his big-big hands - he says anything you can do on z-jump, you can do with claw, and vice versa - he claw for 6 yrs before so he knows - he says z-jump is not more advantageous in-game, but rather a choice of comfort

I love kjh but it was kinda silly to call his video objective truths about z jump when 90% of it was just his perspective and experience with different techniques

lol

Z JUMP CHEATERRRR

10:40

Idk if being “more accessible” is a good argument for allowing something in melee

Same thing as claw who cares. i can't claw cause it hurts so whatever

I see zero issue with remapping buttons on a GameCube controller. If it was a big deal, Ultimate community would be having this discussion too since the game actively allows you to remap buttons. Hell if I was able to use tilt stick in melee, that would be nice, cause that would mean no mis-inputs into smash attacks. And remapping buttons on a GameCube controller is no where near a broken as using a BOXX, cause like you said, BOXX does what the GCC can’t.

Controller mod user : opinion discarded

As a former "ban z-jump" yeller I have to agree after trying it... its free as shit. Everyone should use it. But it shouldn't be banned. The banning of controller stuff ship sailed long ago after we allowed phobs and boxes to become normal. At this point just let it all be legal who cares its not getting changed no matter what people cry about.

imo ban claw grip also

poopoo

cheater lol

boxx and remapping is cheating…

Algo comment #5

Yeah, probably biased here because Cody is my favorite player of all time, but I think I agree more with him than I do KJH. I'm interested in hearing Zain's perspective on this too, but before any of this is even relevant, the b0xx needs to go lol. Screw that thing.

2:35 I disagree, we don't need to live in a world where we allow mods for hand health. part of the classic struggle of melee is wanting to play perfect and not being able to, it's a change of pace for modern melee but why can't balancing techskill intensity and hand health be an important part of melee? why do we need to push the game itself to its limits, and not just ourselves to our own. it is its own skill and aspect of the game doing what you can without hurting yourself. you're just moving the goalposts of how far you can push yourself, and incidentally the character that benefits the most from taking off the natural limiters of a well-made OEM is fox. if the goalposts of how far we care about pushing melee such that controllers are pushed as well are up to us, I think it's sad that the already best, most dominant character gains the most from losing its biggest weakness, which is balancing theoretical capabilities with practical. only this far in the vid btw.

It's just a game

smash community is just a bunch of babies lol this why the FGC looks at ya'll funny in trad fighters its literally like "ok no macros? coo."

dont take anyone who argues against z-jump seriously, unless they start implementing a strict guideline for controller modifications in general; otherwise it's just a bunch of people whining and bitchin cause they aint at the top. git gud

20 minute video on some dumb shit in a vintage game

cody schwab