Were the Book of Mormon witnesses lying, tricked, or telling the truth? Ep. 101

  Рет қаралды 9,043

Saints Unscripted

Saints Unscripted

3 жыл бұрын

At this point in Faith and Beliefs, Dave has done episodes on the 3 Witnesses, the 8 Witnesses, the unofficial witnesses, and he’s addressed the theory that Joseph Smith used hypnotism to dupe the witnesses of the Book of Mormon plates. In this episode, Dave presents the 6 most popular theories that attempt to explain the experiences of the witnesses. Ultimately, it is up to each individual to weigh the evidence (both temporal and spiritual) and make a decision for themselves about what they believe.
Transcript and potentially additional notes: bit.ly/2LSX1LD
Read the Book of Mormon here: bit.ly/2zygfQE
Episode on David Whitmer here: bit.ly/3h0IirB
Episode on Martin Harris here: bit.ly/3iTPbNh
Episode on Oliver Cowdery here: bit.ly/3lQHUzw
Episode on the 8 Witnesses here: bit.ly/3lsfQ4c
Episode on the informal witnesses here: [pending]
Episode on the “hypnotism” theory here: bit.ly/2Wul9WI
As kind of an umbrella source on all things having to do with the witnesses, I highly recommend reading Richard Lloyd Anderson’s excellent book, “Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses.”
Notes:
-The 8 witnesses were not shown the plates via supernatural power. Thus, critics like to showcase a quote attributed to John Whitmer via Theodore Turley. Speaking of an experience with Whitmer, Turley wrote: “...all I know is that you have published to the world that an angel did present those plates to Joseph Smith.’ Whitmer replied: ‘I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. I handled them;’ and he described how they were hung [on rings], and [said] ‘they were shown to me by a supernatural power;’ he acknowledged all.” -Memoranda of Theodore Turley, April 4, 1839, also cit. HC 3:307-8. Read here: bit.ly/3hrvDix
There are a couple of important things to remember about this citation. First, it was recorded by Turley about 6 years after the events in question occurred. Thus, there’s always room for error there. Second (and in my mind, more importantly), remember that John Whitmer acted as Joseph Smith’s scribe for a time during the translation of the Book of Mormon. What he meant by “supernatural power” could be explained by similar language attributed to John via Byron Bond in 1877/78 (recorded only 7 months after the fact):
“John Whitmer told me last winter … [that he] ‘saw and handled’ [the plates and] … helped to copy [the Book of Mormon manuscript] as the words fell from Joseph’s lips by supernatural or [A]lmighty power.” More info and citations here: bit.ly/3gxt5hE
-Fawn Brodie rather unsurprisingly employs a quote from Thomas Ford’s “History of Illinois” to shrug off the experience of the witnesses. According to Ford, Joseph Smith had the witnesses pray for hours before gathering them in a room and showing them an empty box. When those present said they didn’t see any plates, Joseph apparently responded that they needed to pray harder for faith and forgiveness. Then “they were now persuaded that they saw the plates.”
The list of things wrong with Ford’s retelling is very long, but it sufficeth to say that his only sources for this information are anonymous “men who were once in the confidence of the prophet…”. The stories from the actual people involved tell a different story. As a funny side-note, on the previous page, Ford doesn’t even get the names of the 3 witnesses right. He writes,
“Oliver Cowdney, Martin Harris, and Daniel Whiteman, solemnly certify ‘that we have seen the plates which contain the records….’” Ford had obviously read the Testimony of the Three Witnesses because he attempted to quote it. Why he couldn’t read the names attributed to the testimony is a mystery to me. In my opinion, Ford’s obviously hostile retelling of Church history cannot be taken seriously. You can read Ford’s work for yourself here: bit.ly/3loel8c
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Пікірлер: 116
@Mcmj-ot4dt
@Mcmj-ot4dt 2 жыл бұрын
Joseph Smith's face crudely pasted onto Ironman's body was gold.
@corenaricks4144
@corenaricks4144 Жыл бұрын
I agree. Editing at its finest!
@emilyroberts8653
@emilyroberts8653 3 жыл бұрын
My grategrandfather tolled a story of when he was a little boy. asleep in his room, he was awakened when his grandmother shook the side of his bed, smiled at him, then walked out. He said there was a light around her, and that she was wearing a crustal white robe, had White hair, and that her feet never touched the ground! Come to find out that next morning (he didn't even know) but she died well before he went to bed that night! BUT!! He described her exactly how Joseph described the Angle Moroni and Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ to look!!! And there's NO way he could have known that. He knew nothing of the Church. And nun of his family were members!?!?!🙏🙏
@we8sand812
@we8sand812 Жыл бұрын
…yep, sounds like a STORY alright.
@edenicchristian335
@edenicchristian335 3 жыл бұрын
As someone who is just interested in learning more about the LDS movement, I find your videos very well done. You leave it up to the person, without pushing an opinion on them. Not many people do that any more.
@richardlusk8024
@richardlusk8024 3 жыл бұрын
I love that comment, I think that is what God wants us to do. He wants us to know for ourselves by the Holy Spirit his will so I think is awesome David doesn’t try to force it on us
@davidsnell2605
@davidsnell2605 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks, Edenic Christian. Hope you find what you're looking for. Feel free to message me personally on Facebook of Insta if there's any way I can help :).
@moronirubio2778
@moronirubio2778 2 жыл бұрын
Run to the hills and never look back this church is a fraud.
@timovesterinen3611
@timovesterinen3611 3 жыл бұрын
I'm not a Latter day saint but am fascinated about these issues. Could you guys estimate how much 40-60lb lead, iron, copper or tin cost back in 1829, Palmyra? It would tell something about the forgeing theory. Could Joseph Smith have realistically afforded to that amount of metal, then? Maybe the topic for a new video..?!
@brettmajeske3525
@brettmajeske3525 3 жыл бұрын
Well as he was basically an indigent farmer who could not even afford a Bible, any amount seems unlikely.
@brettmajeske3525
@brettmajeske3525 3 жыл бұрын
One ounce of gold was $20. One ounce of silver was $1. One ounce of copper, lead, or tinr was 10-20 cents. $1 in 1830 is the equivelant of about $30 dollars today. So 40-60 lbs of copper was about $1600-$3000 of todays dollars.
@quaystyles6311
@quaystyles6311 3 жыл бұрын
Also no one ever saw them besides those people so hypothetically didn’t have to even buy or make them. That’s if it’s not true just saying
@brettmajeske3525
@brettmajeske3525 3 жыл бұрын
@@quaystyles6311 Well there are over 15 people claiming to have seen and/or handled the Plates. That is a fairly significant number.
@stutterstudios4731
@stutterstudios4731 3 жыл бұрын
The ‘cat-typing’ gif was adorable it made me smile. Good job inserting these bits in. They flow and don’t seem forced
@brettmajeske3525
@brettmajeske3525 3 жыл бұрын
A nice capstone to a great series of videos. Thanks.
@Hesaysalot
@Hesaysalot 3 жыл бұрын
There’s no evidence to prove it one way or another. Faith and reasoning are different things. There is no evidence that exists that would fully satisfy anyone. I have doubts sometimes but the other alternatives seem even more unreasonable and absurd than that the witnesses just told the truth.
@chaseallen7499
@chaseallen7499 2 жыл бұрын
Like the revolutionary Genius and the Ultimate luck Joseph would need to have to write the Book of Mormon if it wasn't from God
@moronirubio2778
@moronirubio2778 2 жыл бұрын
What about all the “prophets” that wrote in the Book of Mormon where they all metal workers? Where did they found so much gold? is the size of the golden plates nobody saw physically (according to Martin Harris) relative to all the writing that was on them? I mean so many words and so many pages they must have been like 200kg of gold not just a couple gold plates. And then they were taken away by the angel Moroni again so no one saw them again, how convenient 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂what a joke, but even more of a joke that people still believe it.
@timneji
@timneji 3 жыл бұрын
They have funny theories for the BOM but claim the Bible is ture because the Bible says it is. yeh sounds logic for me ...
@peter10562
@peter10562 3 жыл бұрын
Right lol 🤦🏻‍♂️ because they were brainwashed longer lol go figure Hahahahahaha
@michiganabigail
@michiganabigail 3 жыл бұрын
No, we believe the Bible is true because the principles taught in the Bible are sound. Also, we believe that God said that the Bible is His word, but over the centuries, many precious truths were taken out or watered down. And most of the critics of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints don't start by denying the Bible. People just attack the Book of Mormon because it's easier to fight against a smaller church than one of the biggest religions in the world.
@timneji
@timneji 3 жыл бұрын
@@michiganabigail i guess you misunderstood my comment. I think the way they true to debug the BOM is just stupid, if you believe in the Bible and claim the Witnesses of the BOM are not enough but a book that was published by the Catholic Church far after Christ, is true because its the bible. I believe in the Bible and in the BOM, i trust that witnesses.
@michiganabigail
@michiganabigail 3 жыл бұрын
@@timneji I definitely misunderstood, sorry! Both the Bible and the BOM require faith, so they shouldn’t be tearing down our faith, especially not because it’s less popular. Christ wasn’t a popular guy, either! I’m glad we agree, sorry again!
@leem3299
@leem3299 3 жыл бұрын
I'm impressed with the editing. Really nice! And as strong a case as I've ever heard about the witnesses. Just goes to show either side looking down on each other won't win. I really like the respectful approach here. Focusing on the witnesses is a bit of a two edged sword though, because it brings up the question of why they eventually found Joseph difficult enough to stop following him - when they claimed such proof. And I'm suspicious of just trusting Joseph's side of the story in all cases. The witnesses have at least some credibility.
@joshuatoro8977
@joshuatoro8977 Жыл бұрын
And are the plates all of them can they be seen today?
@deanschwenk1610
@deanschwenk1610 Жыл бұрын
Preach, Daniel. Preach
@Icanonlyimagn7891
@Icanonlyimagn7891 5 ай бұрын
Love you videos! They are fun, informative and just give facts, not tell me how to think about them. 🙌🏻❤️☀️
@terryv3780
@terryv3780 2 жыл бұрын
A great video to share are the testimony of “The Three Nephites”. I have a book that shares stories of people converts and members who have witnessed “The Three Nephites” these past two centuries. One book that compiled these testimonies is the book “About the three Nephites” by Douglas and Jewel Beardall. I have read the entire book. Interestingly, the testimonies have similarities amongst the stories. These stories are part of our Church history. I would be interested in your thoughts about it. It may be a fun one to do research.
@adammcguk
@adammcguk 3 жыл бұрын
Martin Harris said he saw Jesus in the form of a deer which followed him on one occasion. Someone prone to seeing such things isn't a great witness.
@Hamann9631
@Hamann9631 3 жыл бұрын
adam_mcg_uk. Actually, Martin Harris never said that. That claim is from a liar claiming a liar heard Martin who had many positions of responsibilities in his life had said that. The positions to which I am referring include juror and town council.
@davidsnell2605
@davidsnell2605 3 жыл бұрын
I'm glad you brought this up! It is addressed in the episode cited in this video about Martin Harris. It addresses this claim, along with several others. But to make a long story short, the claim that Martin saw Jesus in the form of a deer comes from a later, third-hand hostile source. It is found in a letter from Reverend John A. Clark in which he attempts to discredit our faith. I believe it was written in 1842, referencing events said by an anonymous "gentleman in Palmyra" to have occurred while the BoM was being translated, probably in 1829. I've found no trace of Martin himself actually claiming that this ever happened. Of course, you may choose for yourself what to believe. Here's Martin's episode: saintsunscripted.com/faith-and-beliefs/the-restoration-of-christs-church/did-martin-harris-actually-see-the-gold-plates/
@richardlusk8024
@richardlusk8024 3 жыл бұрын
Love you Dave this videos helped me out a lot on my mission
@davidsnell2605
@davidsnell2605 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks, Richard. Have a good one!
@Hamann9631
@Hamann9631 3 жыл бұрын
3:00. One evidence for that idea is the popularity of ex-members with many christians and vehement atheists.
@imoutbye
@imoutbye 2 жыл бұрын
Consider this. If by the time all these people had bought in to it, left they’d homes to join the faith, if they admitted it was fabricated, wouldn’t they be lynched? I’d gladly like to see a lunching in that time if these men were a part of a massive scale of fraud. Even hinkleysaid if it’s not true then it’s the greatest fraud in the history of mankind. So if you weeee apart of this, would you confess? Or hope you get to quietly disappear.
@redfightblue
@redfightblue 3 жыл бұрын
The witnesses would have nothing to gain by exposing the BOM. They believed the BOM had real value in converting the American Indian to Christianity. Christianity is the lower gospel that must be understood before you can be taught the higher gospel in the temple.
@BettyHorn
@BettyHorn 3 жыл бұрын
Probably one of your best episodes ever.
@davidsnell2605
@davidsnell2605 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks, Betty. I appreciate that.
@BrotherMercer
@BrotherMercer 3 жыл бұрын
👍
@DEADxVenom
@DEADxVenom 3 жыл бұрын
I’m not ganna believe in a book 2000 years after Christ to tell me the truth about God when we have early testimony off Jesus life and death in the holy bilbe Isaiah 43 . 10 before me no God was formed nor will there be after me.
@adammcguk
@adammcguk 3 жыл бұрын
Doesn't seem incredible to me that the original witnesses that left the church kept the story because they didn't want their character to be besmirched and to be viewed as dupes. Some later rejoined the church so possibly they didn't recant because they wanted to keep the possibility of rejoining open.
@timneji
@timneji 3 жыл бұрын
Yeh sure 😅 sounds more logic than they just tell the truth 😅
@adammcguk
@adammcguk 3 жыл бұрын
@@timneji I don't think so. If they recanted their story later in life, their reputation would be tarnished and they would be asked why they lied all those years.
@davidsnell2605
@davidsnell2605 3 жыл бұрын
You're free to believe as you see fit. My thoughts on this theory are actually found in this video. If they cared that much about their character, I wonder why they would have lied in the first place. Plenty of other people renounced the Church and were well received by the surrounding anti-Latter-day Saint communities. It seems to me that the simple fact that they publicly adhered to the Church for a time is good evidence that they clearly didn't care what people thought about them haha. As members, they were already viewed by those outside the faith as dupes. But again, everyone must decide whose testimony to believe, and whose not to believe.
@adammcguk
@adammcguk 3 жыл бұрын
@@davidsnell2605 Martin Harris had already sunk a lot of money into the church. Reneging on Smith would cut him off permanently. Perhaps he wanted to keep rejoining open and back to the status given to one of the witnesses.
@timneji
@timneji 3 жыл бұрын
@@adammcguk thats surely the reason why he defend it till he died, because he is wants to rejoin... sure
@cultfiction3865
@cultfiction3865 3 жыл бұрын
Just seems to be a problem that most of the 8 witnesses were relatives or friends.
@davidsnell2605
@davidsnell2605 3 жыл бұрын
You can certainly view it that way if you'd like. One could also take issue with the witnesses if they had been random strangers ("Wait, I'm supposed to believe this random stranger Joseph picked out of a crowd?"). I suppose he could have tried to contact some high-profile people to be his witnesses and take advantage of their influential status. Of course, that didn't go over very well with Charles Anthon, and doesn't seem to be the pattern left by Christ (whose witnesses were humble fisherman and whatnot). That said, I'd have to do more research, but I really am not sure how familiar Joseph would have been with the Whitmer family. If I recall correctly, he'd only been with them a few weeks before they were chosen to be witnesses. And some of the witnesses didn't live on the Whitmer property while Joseph was there (someone correct me if I'm wrong there). So I really doubt they were *close* friends. I think he chose those who were willing and available. And also maybe a few people who, frankly, deserved to see them (like his brothers and father). Anyway, as per the video, it's up to each person to choose who to believe!
@cultfiction3865
@cultfiction3865 3 жыл бұрын
@@davidsnell2605 Christ’s apostles did end up been fairly high profile by the time they penned the gospels though since they had performed miracles and healed the sick and infirm by the time they wrote their books. So I’m guessing they would have been influential at the time of their testimonies. Even though they started out with humble beginnings. But to be truthful I think that had his witnesses been strangers from a crowd no hidden motives could as easily be imputed. Just a few months ago I watched a documentary about a guy that was convicted for murder based on the testimony of 13 “supposed” witnesses. A few years later they all withdrew their testimonies and admitted they had lied. Apparently they claim the police had been bribing them to give statements against the particular suspect. And they all knew the suspect too. And yet despite no dna evidence I believe this guy is still locked up to this day even though it’s widely believed that he is actually innocent. But that is the strange thing about witness testimony. The fact that 13 people could all be coaxed into telling lies. I appreciate that none of Joseph witnesses ever retracted their testimonies so it is somewhat different. But it always seems open ended where reliance upon witnesses is concerned I suppose.
@cultfiction3865
@cultfiction3865 3 жыл бұрын
But in the case I mentioned the one reason this guy was convicted despite absolutely no DNA evidence was that similar argument. That how could 13 witnesses all be saying the same thing and he be innocent? But as the years rolled by it became evident that they seem to have been manipulated by the police. And sometimes the weight of witness evidence can seem compelling but is not always foolproof.
@davidsnell2605
@davidsnell2605 3 жыл бұрын
@@cultfiction3865 Re: "But it always seems open ended where reliance upon witnesses is concerned I suppose." Indeed. As I've mentioned in these videos on the witnesses, it is ultimately up to each individual to choose whether or not they believe the witnesses, or not. I address all of the different theories people believe in in the episode of Faith and Beliefs that was published a couple of days ago (Wednesday) if you're interested.
@cultfiction3865
@cultfiction3865 3 жыл бұрын
@@davidsnell2605 right now my WiFi is down but as soon as it’s up I’ll watch the video. It just seems problematic that most of the witnesses were related to each other or were friends of Joseph. In such cases even if there were 50 such witnesses it’s problematic when most of them are from the same few families, all of which had some form of friendship with Jospeh. Random witnesses from a crowd would be much more compelling. But faith is the ability to rise above our doubts and take a stand with belief. You do a good job on your videos and I always gain a lot from them. I know much more about the Mormon faith now. I’m a Jehovah’s Witness and even I sometimes experience doubts and carry the weight of unanswered questions. But the belief is there and I choose it above my doubts because the odds seem to favour belief. My doubts are things that are more likely a lack of understanding of ancient cultures. We tend to judge things according to modern sensibilities but thousands of years ago perceptions were almost certainly very different on many different levels. It’s something we have to get to grips with as people moulded by a modern society.
@thefreedomrag7558
@thefreedomrag7558 3 жыл бұрын
So I have read the book of Mormon... I am also a lawyer by trade. I will start by saying that I don't find the form of witness given particularly compelling. When a person testifies that something is true then you should seek to record as much background information about the experience. Where did you see the plates? What day and time did you see the plates? How large were the plates? Did you touch them? What was written on them? Who were you with? What were you doing before you saw the plates? What did you do afterwards? Who did you tell about the plates? What did you say to these different people? Did you discuss the plates with Joseph afterwards or beforehand? The accounts of the witnesses are lacking in context and detail. If they were a witness to a trial in 1830 you would expect a more comprehensive account. I do not believe the accounts of the witnesses because I find that they lack sufficient detail to support such a miraculous claim. The last point that I would say is that the character of the witnesses is on trial too. You have to ask yourself... Would a person who has directly experiencing the plates join another religion? As I understand it one witness claimed that he had as much evidence for the book of Mormon as he did for a new revealed shaker gospel. In short, I am more inclined to believe eye witness accounts of Bigfoot or the lockness monster than I am of these witnesses. But you are free to believe what you want to believe.
@brettmajeske3525
@brettmajeske3525 3 жыл бұрын
I wonder if you have checked out LDS Truth Claims videos on the witnesses. The presenter at that channel also has a law degree.
@thefreedomrag7558
@thefreedomrag7558 3 жыл бұрын
@@brettmajeske3525 I have actually... And again ... I find the accounts lacking in detail and context
@timneji
@timneji 3 жыл бұрын
@@thefreedomrag7558 and that is absolutely fine :) everybody is free to choose his religion ☺️
@thefreedomrag7558
@thefreedomrag7558 3 жыл бұрын
@Anti Anti Mormon But they also testified to other things that you don't believe are true. Didn't one of them also witness that another church was true?
@thefreedomrag7558
@thefreedomrag7558 3 жыл бұрын
@Anti Anti Mormon See this also www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Does_Martin_Harris%27_involvement_with_the_Shakers_undercut_his_testimony%3F
@Timforbel
@Timforbel 3 жыл бұрын
Co-conspirators in a crime would be willing to perpetuate the lie if the truth would hurt them financially! Lots of people lost out financially and otherwise in their association with LDS Church, the "eye witnesses" could have been held liable in a court of law and forced to pay restitution. That would be motivation enough not to tell the truth about the lie! If the witnesses really believed the LDS Church was "the true Church" why would they be so willing to leave it? If I faced the potential of losing a law suit for damages by Saints in the loss of income, property or life, I'd be more than willing to say I "saw" anything and believe it myself!!!
@timneji
@timneji 3 жыл бұрын
Yeh sure. Specially if they clams to be true while they are die, because they are afraid of a law case ...
@brettmajeske3525
@brettmajeske3525 3 жыл бұрын
Umm, their liability would remain the same whether they can their testimony or not. And they were not sued. Frankly, America was not quite as litigious as it is today. Yes many people lost money, including the witnesses. There was an economic depression going on. The people who would have been most hurt be such a fraud was the witnesses themselves who spent so much of their own personal funds getting the Book of Mormon published without getting fully reimbursed. So your saying they were afraid of suing themselves? You need to think this through better.
@fidelceja585
@fidelceja585 3 жыл бұрын
Pray and you’ll know... 🙏🏼
@alanabills5370
@alanabills5370 3 жыл бұрын
Many people pray and get nothing.
@joshuatoro8977
@joshuatoro8977 Жыл бұрын
So could it have been a demon that was showing them these things?
@BrendonKing
@BrendonKing 3 жыл бұрын
We are weirdly focused on the witness accounts lately
@timneji
@timneji 3 жыл бұрын
it makes sense to finish that topic before we go to the next one
@michiganabigail
@michiganabigail 3 жыл бұрын
It's like a series of episodes about all the witnesses. It's a theme.
@davidsnell2605
@davidsnell2605 3 жыл бұрын
Yeah this was kind of a wrap-up episode for the witnesses. I don't have anything further planned for them in the near future.
@BrendonKing
@BrendonKing 3 жыл бұрын
@@davidsnell2605 oh it’s interesting without a doubt, and I think you wrapped it up nicely, but I was curious what brought the topic to mind to begin with.
@davidsnell2605
@davidsnell2605 3 жыл бұрын
@@BrendonKing I find the topic fascinating. And one of the purposes (though not the only purpose) of this segment is to address criticisms leveled against our faith. So addressing the claims against the witnesses has been on my mind for months. The episodes on each of the 3 witnesses came out at the beginning of 2020. I always intended to do additional episodes on the other witnesses, so the episodes you've been seeing the last month or so are me circling back around to that topic. Now I can die in peace.
@alatterdaysaintonfire5643
@alatterdaysaintonfire5643 3 жыл бұрын
The Moroni chapter 10 promise says, (if it be wisdom in God) that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, The parentheses are added. If it be wisdom in God. This statement at least sets the condition that it is in Gods wisdom if you will be one who will be given a witness of the truthfulness of the message of the book, and therefore the book itself.
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