Ahaha Classic

What! They can know how many functions/data/lists are in the file! NOOOOOOOOOOO!

time for an amazon ebook of emacs jokes

@@TheSulross I would buy that. But not a vim book about that. Yes, I use Emacs for most things.

@@TheSulross That's actually more of a lisp joke. They all boil down to "haha, look at the parentheses."

*educated

@@RoboticRabbit3312 Lol, typo. Status: Won't fix Reason: Breaks comments context

@@danieldantur2719 Ship It!

Yes, why we have to make it more complicated. Make it quick and simple with vim (neo im)

dude really.. i'm a vim user too and after i saw this video, my relation with vim got stronger.

But they are in the same boomer backyard.

Luke Smith !

Exactly ! When you just want to have an editor that deels well with your terminal, you don't need more than vim

Right! „Emacs is a great operating system, lacking only a decent editor.“ is the saying.

My environment is GNU/Linux, the operating system.

@@thingsiplay in that case you should install an editor asap ;).

@@vesder819 It comes pre-installed with many editor tools.

"Lacking only a decent editor" was the full joke, i think

He's basically comparing vim without plugins to emacs with plugins. It's an unfair comparison. Vim has plenty of cool plugins as well. It is more limited though because elisp is more powerful than vimscript (Neovim has Lua now though) and vim is not GUI, so it can't show images and stuff. Vim is much more fast and lightweight though, is a much better editor by default (not counting emacs evil mode here obviously), and runs better in a terminal. There's a reason why DT uses doom emacs and not default emacs. Default emacs sucks and you need to write a loooong config file to turn it into something like doom emacs :)

@@maxarendorff6521 He actually mentioned that Emacs has a steep learning curve. Doom Emacs eases the process. One can learn vim in a week. But to really understand the power of emacs it takes months. But once you get there, emacs will feel much more powerful than vim.

@@SenthilBabuji I tried Emacs, but switched back to Neovim. It's not for me. Too slow, doesn't run well in a terminal, huge pain to configure...

@@maxarendorff6521 no, it is a fair comparing vim and Emacs. (And you couldn't bother learning Emacs, so just say that and don't make up excuses like "too slow", or doesn't run well in terminal or "pain to configure". Just admit, you are not the man up for the job. ;-D ) Because one argument of using vim is that it are in all Linux server. But then you need to copy the configuration between your servers. You can edit files on remote servers with Emacs without copy configuration to those servers, nor install Emacs. Just open the file /ssh:user@server:file will use ssh to open the file on server, as it was local. And with M-x shell you got a shell on that machine. Vimscript is less powerful, because you are not changing vim. When you write elisp extensions, you are actually changing Emacs. So no, vimscript isn't even comparable. That vim is faster and mire leightweight are debatable, so are to claim it is better by default. And no, it doesn't run better in terminal, actually there are no major difference between the running in terminal. Default Emacs IS the same Emacs as Doom Emacs, there would not be a Doom Emacs, if there was not a default Emacs. Just acknowledge, you are not the man to run Emacs, or configure Emacs to suit your workflow. You are not just up for the task, so you make lots of excuses. ;-) (And yes, Doom Emacs and Spacemacs are bloated ;-) ). Just go to System Crafter channel and read up on Emacs, I know you can learn Emacs too, if you want to.

You forget to add GUI - i.e. It's a GUI LISP INTERPRETER.

it's Interpreter

@@grapesalt Yes but it is GUI? not CLI interpreter. VIM is CLI EDITOR. For me is important - VIM is not Graphical Editor/ I mean if in linux you;ll have error on X server (x.org) emacs will not start.

@Robert Pilgrim My point is - initially Emacs is GUI application? and Vim is cli editor. I'm not trying to convince that smth is better or not. If you install Emacs you have a Gui application.

@@mikesa7719 I believe emacs was written to run in the terminal initially. GUI emacs was developed much later. It is a software written in the 80s, GUI was not the primary environment for hackers.

I think it should be left to those who have complete freedom to setup things how they like otherwise the separate programs are just too hard to keep up with.

why ?, Is it because you loves vim more than emacs?

@@noyalmartin9729 in the end I found that I like simple tools and the flexibility they provide better than complex ones. After having used separate tools for some time, I can’t seem to wrap my head around all those integrated stuff in emacs anymore. It feels to monolithic to me. None of the tools in emacs were better than the separate ones. And org mode is so much its own ecosystem that it doesn’t integrate well with anything outside emacs. Living in emacs and org mode is all very well if you live behind your computer 24/7 and don’t use any other devices.

@@mke7605 helpful, thanks for sharing

@@mke7605 also, emacs doesnt have a decent terminal emulator, which i would really miss considering i have a shortcut for popping a terminal in neovim

no.

I think the best thing you can do is using whatever application best suits your workflow irrespective of who says what.

Give micro a try too.

Tbh if you use nano it will be trivial for you to start using Vim to do literally everything that nano does. They're both CLIs, and the only thing you need to know is how to get into insert mode and out back to normal mode - which is as simple as hitting i then ESC - and how to save :w, close :q or ZQ, and save and close :wq or ZZ. After that it's basically the same as nano, but you'll realise there is no glass ceiling and you can use it in more and more advanced ways. I use Vim, so I don't know if you can jump into emacs with similar ease - I'll leave that for others to comment.

Master nano user here, who needs vim or eMacs those editors have so many features you’ll probably never use half of them … ill choose simplicity and elegance over those two.

Not to be that guy but I'm gonna be that guy. Its because Linux is just the kernel. Emacs can run on top of Linux kernel to be a desktop env, and pretty much everything else

@@KManAbout hey whatever works best for you is the best solution :)

@@bardus_hobus truer words have hardly been said.

​@@KManAbout out of curiosity, have you used exwm? I want to know if it's practical to use emacs to that extreme, since if I am to use it I'd rather have it be my wm without any overhead

@@opposite342 I haven't used exwm, I know people who have and appreciate it though. I can't say I would recommend it, mostly because I am a stumpwm and commonlisp fan hhahha.

​@@darthvader1191so the fix for emacs is actually called evil.

@@darthvader1191 What would I bother with a Neovim simulcrum that runs slower if I can just use Neovim? Also, not a skill issue. I used it for three years in evil mode.

@@wafficuslives6701 it's just a famous quote I find amusing I don't use either day to day and live most of the time in Sublime Text. Edited for reduced grumpiness,with apologies

Which could prolly be written in elisp. The gift that keeps on giving.... ah, Emacs.

It's a great quote because it must have been said by somebody who really understands emacs.

Which is why I use spacemacs with vim key bindings.

Evil mode comes close!

Thats because you generally want to run it as a daemon

Vim can be slow, too. I switched to Emacs 5 years ago because Vim was starting and running agonizingly slowly with all the plugins I was using and due to the platform I was running on (Cygwin). Running Emacs in server mode was actually faster and gave me everything I wanted. Today, my Emacs config is over 10,000 lines, I use hundreds of packages, and I never experience performance issues.

smart guy ... the fan-boys will explain that you can always find and fix the slowdown, but why spend your time doing that ? the vim system - once you practice it - i cannot live without it. i use Emacs with evil-mode, but Emacs is more a pass-time than a productive entity. if you like to write elisp, than it has advantages - only than.

Check out System Crafters, as there are lots of videos about setting up Emacs for different tasks.

I chose mode

The only based answer in this cringe comment thread

One one hand that could very possibly be true, OTOH by that logic you probably shouldn't have learned vim in the first place.

@@jaredsmith5826 I disagree. I saw some videos that showed the advantages of Vim over a standard text editor, and I thought that it would be worth learning it. Furthermore, to learn the basics of Vim takes half an hour or so, maybe even less. From there, if you need to do something but don't know how, a quick Google search is really all you need to do. From everything that I have been told about Emacs, it takes a lot longer to get as proficient with it, and the stuff that can be done beyond what Vim can do just isn't what I require.

I have one doubt, can we do global searches in vim for all the files in the directory? Like how we use ctrl+shift+F in VScode.

@@JRCSalter if you only want to edit within Emacs, you can get going with the same time limit. Nothing strange there, and you don't need to handle the multi mode thing. And as with vim, everything from there is just a google away. So if you call that to be proficent in Emacs, then they are about the same. The different thing is that to contionu from there, vim has limits, serious limits. You have your set of settings, that is it. You have vimscript, but that is just what vim allows you to use through the API. You can't really change vim. Emacs your configuration is basically you rebuildning Emacs to suit you, you are making the program yours. All configuration you do, are actually changing the program. All the elisp code will be part of Emacs, no way of knowing that your additions are yours or coming from the developers of Emacs, because Emacs is built in elisp. So there are the most fundamental difference between vim and Emacs. There are no limits what you can change, compared to vim. That is why you have several adaptions of key vi key bindings to Emacs, and I have seen none for Vim. Because that isn't part of the API you are allowed to use. And no, I wouldn't recommend vim to new users, unless they are not able to learn the Emacs key bindings, which are as natural as vim. But in another plan, as they are not limited to the keyboard layout, they are "logical" in another way. You can switch keyboard layout and still be able to use Emacs as before. Not so much in vim, as it is based on keyboard layout (like the h, j, k ,l in one row to move cursor).

@@JRCSalter I'm an avid Emacs user, but I will say, it can be overwhelming to get into if you're not interested in having an essentially infinite feature set. If the necessary feature set is covered by Vim, there's no reason you need to learn Emacs, unless you want to learn it for fun. For me, Org mode, Calc, and Magit are all irreplaceable to me. They looked amazing. That's why I personally switched.

echos from the great neckbeard wars of the early 90's

Good luck, man. Magit is really good. You can do everything the git command can do, only this time with single keystrokes. It's the fastest way to use git. Also, it's hands-down the fastest way to commit only parts of changes. Tab-open the changed file to see the diff, mark the part of the diff you want to stage and press 's' to stage. Done. Also, forget about what people say about having to live in emacs. It's not required. It all depends on your needs. Right now I myself am perfectly happy using emacs just for org mode and magit and coding in VSCode. That being said, I did spend quite some time learning Emacs and getting it configured the way I wanted. There's no way around that. But it will pay dividends in the end.

well said Mob!

If you would show this comment to a Victorian child in the Industrial Revolution they would’ve spontaneosuly combusted into thin-air

I actually don't like lisp all that much. Between having parentheses everywhere and having everything in infix notations it is very hard to read. I get that in lisp everything is a function call hence the syntax is perfectly logical, but I don't think it's doing itself any favors in terms of readability. I still do love Emacs. It's great to be able to do everything within one customizable environment using the same bindings everywhere, I just wish it was built on a an easier language to use.

you got it. god bless you. anyone who does not want to learn and write elisp will find zero real advantages in Emacs over better ide's.

I agree with you. I also think that Emacs doesn't actually follow the Unix philosophy.

​@@teunissenstefanYeah, it doesn't seem quite like it... It feels too monolithic, it is trying to be so many things at once... Vim follows better the unix philosophy, you have a simple shell of an text editor and you simply extend it with the things you need, it does not come pre-bloated for you, you use what you need

Im glad I found this comment after seeing the one with almost 800 likes of people just hating on Emacs. If everything said in the video is true, it just makes sense to figure out how to get vim binding to work with Emacs so you can get the best of both worlds.

Seriously I found this comment very insightful.

Then look at Emacs 28, which have JIT compilation to native code.

Me too. Even neovim is slow sometimes especially with async plugins and LSPs. Somehow Helix didn't seem to have that problem for me but it's a bit less configurable and I miss easy motions and other plugins.

org-mode in terminal? how?

we come back to the linux commandline. that is the mother and as everyone says ... the advantage is scripting. elisp is hardly an improvement over basic linux utilities.

What are the benefits of emacs over vim? - People don't understand emacs and don't know all the keybindings, it's too hard. Ok.jpg

this is my last comment here ... by accident or no, the vi system - extended with vim is close to an AI created scheme for keyboard manipulation of text. once you learn it you hate using the mouse, though i tolerate the mouse for everything else.

How long did your inspiration last? Over 40 minutes? I'd be surprised...

@@exnihilonihilfit6316 lol nope I am just finishing reading a book on Emacs and trying to use it on day to day editing but it's not muscle memory yet 🤪

hows emacs treating you nowadays?

It took me 20 seconds to learn how to edit anything text file in emacs. Not sure where you went wrong 18 years ago...

Try the System Crafters Chanel if you want to start configure Emacs from scratch.

He did a livestream where he configured Emacs from scratch. The video is called "Leaving Doom Emacs For GNU Emacs? - DT Live!" :)

Recommend System Crafters if you want to know more about what to do to configure Emacs and the work flow. Are building some configure files for Vanilla Emacs right now (vanilla as in plain default), which is nice if you don't want the overhead from Doom Emacs.

No, I don't like RMS.

@@vorrnth8734 then stop using linux.

@@rizkyadiyanto7922 I can't even though I indeed prefer FreeBSD.

*pulls the alpine linux copypasta*

@@aldotovar9231 I use Alpine with GNU coreutils :)

@AstroCat I mean, when it's going up and down. Especially if I want to select a block or something..

Lua will increase vim's ability but as vim is designed around displaying text files and piped output, your UI design is going to be limited. Honestly prior to neovim you could just write scripts in your favorite language and then write vim script to process the output in a vim friendly way. Lua in neovim just reduces the complexity a little.

No, it will not. Those extensions (and configurations) you do is just what is allowed to be changed/used by the vim program and their coders. You can't change anything else. In Emacs you ARE changing the code base of Emacs when you configure Emacs. Your code/configuration are like the code that builds Emacs, and there are no way to see the difference, except if you know which files it is read from. So yes, you can change anything in Emacs, which you probably doesn't want to. But you can. Emacs is a elisp interpreter/compiler that has superb expandability for the users and it's default application is an editor, also called Emacs. You can't get more flexibility then that. Do vim work for you, great. But don't pretend that vim are as flexible and easy to configure as Emacs. When you configure Emacs, you change the code that is Emacs.

It doesn't change anything other than allowing you to program vim more intuitively than vimscript, with it's augroup function! ++nested etc... obscurity. It can change any part of the vim api, and it can run *any* terminal application and produce its output as part of the editor so that if you set up something like LunarVim, you'll be using parts of the toolchain totally external to vim without being aware of it. (Of course if you set up an telescope interface yourself then you'll know perfectly well where vim ends and telescope begins, even though it all appears in one application.

Or at least as a Tilled Window manager. 🙂

Yeah, because when I'm editing a project in six different windows on 6 different servers in six different languages in vim with everything just autoformatting perfectly, it really sucks that I can't play tetris right then and there. ;)

my friend, it is an illness. ... i need a therapist.

that has a simple solution, doom emacs as a emacs-server then it will start faster than vim. and that also tells me you are running either mac or windows, because emacs in Linux is so damn fast, even with spacemacs starts fast.

@@lupuscanis4370 oh cool! I havnt used anything but linux the past 10 years though. Maybe because I had a lot of configuration on emacs.

@@12kenbutsuri and I have used linux for 22 years, so what.

@@lupuscanis4370 wow, you have some socializing issues don't you lol from your comments, I can tell you are probably not even good at coding, with all your big assumptions ;p

@@12kenbutsuri well you are so slow or why would you assume I'm here to socialize, I'm using a disposable account, seriously.

Yes, it is worth the learning curve. Is Emacs needed for what you do, I don't know. But it will defenitly add and change what you do on your computer and in your workflow. And of course, you can do the same thing in Emacs, as it has access to several terminal emulators in Emacs, unless you want to run Emacs or Vim in them... ;-)

💯🤣

@@saravananm2280 For what it's worth, I now use emacs for almost everything. The video was a bad introduction to what is otherwise an awesome piece of software for certain types of people. Give emacs a try if you're interested.

Moonshine is gone, but got one hell of a fro. Luke Smith just arrived to make me use bash

Thanks, I'm glad they have wifi in the hospital while I'm treated for alcohol poisoning and getting my stomach pumped. 🙃

@@mikereynolds1368 you must live above the Mason-Dixon Line.

Alcoholism is bad mmkay

@@leviticus8930 why do jokes work differently up north? :)

It doesn't come installed on every machine isn't a real problem, as long as you have it installed on your machine. Just use TRAMP and you can edit files in your Emacs in any machine you have ssh access to.

There is a nvim plugin for org mode

There is actually a vim plugin called table mode or something. Have been using that for a while, mostly for markdown.

same. I also go like 'vim does a lot for me, and it runs on the terminal which is very close to the shell which means I have access to all my scripts and other powerful apps, also being lightning fast at the same time' and I skip on emacs.

Same. Nowadays many projects are excellent, but without a good pitch and good documentation it's going to be hard to get/maintain traction. "What's the value proposition of my/our project and how should we communicate that in a video?" should be a key question to be asked in my opinion.

there is likely no "real benefit" if you are already invested in vim. certainly the jump from something like nano to either vim or emacs is not going to be found from going from vim to emacs. i will however say that there is something to the gnu philosophy that people living in the linux world are generally blind to and emacs is the only real way to learn it. i have spent years in vim and went down the configuring it, etc., rabbit hole and felt like it was perfect. on a whim a year or so ago I spent about 5 months (while i was doing some pretty low urgency web dev) in emacs (vanilla) and it was pretty insightful. that being said, my take basically was that both vim and emacs have the whole editing thing wrong for ideological reasons and have since moved to acme (plan9)

@@peacemekka M-x shell give you access to all your scripts from Emacs too. But you probably do way more stuff from Emacs anyway.

@@viardent8823 acme, it that like Wily, an Linux implementation of a Gui editor? Wily is nice, and you build it around script you run from Wily.

I think the problem is that Emacs is very capable of tiling window management but it’s relatively hard to learn and configure well. There is a lot of nuance with window parameters, frame parameters, the display-buffer mechanism, buffer-local variables, hooks, etc... It’s a slog to get something nice, but at least when you get there, you’re an expert, so you can solve any issues that arise. The only thing that’s missing IMO is nice window-specific tabs, as I am not a fan of stock tab-line functionality. I have developed a package that brings them closer to what you’d typically see in other tabbed tiling window applications, but there are still some minor bugs to shake out before I contribute to MELPA. Despite its flaws, I have been daily-driving my hack for 4-ish months and now I can’t imagine not using it. Really want to get it out there this year.

Emacs is portable to more places then vim. Vi (and thus vim) was built at and for Unix. (based on ed, sed as a visual addition being vi), Emacs came from another OS to Unix. So Emacs can be used as an trans MS, OSX, Linux layer to unify them. Has been for long. And as editing files on other computers. If you have ssh access to those computers, you can edit them from Emacs without installing Emacs and/or your configurations on them. Just open a file /ssh:user@machine:file and you will open the file in Emacs as user on the machine. And if you them open a shell with M-x shell, you have terminal access to the machine through Emacs using ssh. So the most flexible use is to have it on a lap top, so you can bring your laptop and Emacs with you. There have been some experiments compile Emacs for web browser, but that is just experiments. But if you have your configurations in some git repository, you can easy move it to your different machines, if you have a need. Also good to have that as a back up. Please have a look at my configuration at gitlab.com/anders-jackson-hig/emacs-init or check out the System Crafter channel for more info on Emacs and how to use it.

Both emacs and vim have remote editing, despite an INCREDIBLE amount of silliness by people who only know emacs, and don't like the modal editor model anyway which pretty much ends the emacs vs vim argument right there.

You don't need to be a programmer to use Emacs, nor to configure it. I would go for Vanilla Emacs and then check out System Crafters channel for more about Emacs. He made a serie of how to configure Emacs, and Org-mode.

doesn't change the fundamentals though, emacs and vim are the literal opposites. vim is a text editor with an extension language slapped on top, emacs is a programming language with a text editor slapped on top

@@ricknaam5658 It's an arbitrary distinction. DT is such an Emacs fanboy, but even he doesn't use default Emacs because that is also just a text editor (and not a very good one). If you want all the fancy features, you have to install doom emacs or write thousands of lines of config yourself to turn emacs into something more than a text editor.

Hack upon hack? Don't agree, except for my own configuration. And when you set up your configuration and hack your setup, you actually make that part of Emacs, you are actually changing Emacs. vim and vimscript are just you talking to the vim program. You are not allowed to do anything there are not a API for. That is the most fundamental different between Emacs and Vim.

@@AndersJackson Genuinely curius, what's something I couldn't do in vim because there's no API for it?

@@noname-dt6sv write an email client in vim. Write an web browser in vim. Write Tramp in vim, write Org-mode in vim. etc etc etc. That is not how vim works, so no, you can't. Emacs is designed to be expandable, by execute code in the program, to have a REPL in it from the beginning. Where you by execute code change the program you are running. That is is so good documented so it actually makes ordinary non programmers able to write non trivial expansions to Emacs. By try out the expansion while they write it. Yes, vim have a nice set of key bindings, IF you can manage the multiple mode settings, which is origin because of older editors run on computers that didn't had the power to run in "video mode". That is why you have the different modes in vim, by accident it was quite ok. Yes you could retrofit most of the extensions into vim, but that is just hacks made after they have been developed in other tools, like in Emacs. Sorry, but that is what vim are. Some nice key bindings on on rather simple editor. Compared to Emacs. Yes, that might be the tool for you, and then I am happy for you. But don't try to make vim into something it clearly isn't because you want stuff that are in Emacs, but not in vim.

@@noname-dt6sv yes, you probably will claim that vim also have an expansion language, or several. But you know, that is just an after thought, and not as good as the Lisp repl that is Emacs.

You still have that in Emacs. And if you start Emacs in server mode, you can easy and fast start editing files.

Then just stick with vim or switch to neovim because it has more stuff

@@willardorwud not more stuff then Emacs.

@@AndersJackson Pretty sure he means neovim has more stuff than vim.

@@AndersJackson Of course neovim doesn’t have as much stuff as emacs, but for a lot of users emacs is overkill