What is Contact Strength and How is it Different from Finger Strength?

What is Contact Strength and How is it Different from Finger Strength? | Contact Strength Pt. 1

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Күн бұрын

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// TIMESTAMPS //
00:00 Intro
00:34 What Our Viewers Say
01:29 New Format!
01:39 Part 1: Answers from the Research
02:43 Part 2: Answers from the Climbing Community
03:35 Part 3: Answers from the Research... Revisited!
05:12 Part 4: Contact Strength vs. Regular Strength
06:04 A fun demonstration!
07:22 Part 5: So what is contact strength?
08:06 Part 6: Okay nerd, who cares??
08:33 Conclusion and Bloopers
// SHOW NOTES //
Episode 97
INTRODUCTION
Contact strength is a largely confusing term in climbing. Unlike something like max hangs on a hangboard, which is a pretty clear-cut concept at this point, I’ve heard all kinds of differing opinions on contact strength. And that’s no good for us science nerds! We need consistency and repeatability in order to reach useful conclusions. So is there actually one, science-based explanation of contact strength or is it just another climbing slang term that no one can agree on? Today, we find out.
ANSWERS FROM THE CLIMBING COMMUNITY
Steve Bechtel refers to contact strength as “...one’s ability to grasp a hold with maximum strength ‘on contact’.”
The Rock Climber's Training Manual calls it “...the amount of force you can generate during the period of initial contact with the hold.”
Eric Horst says it’s the “Initial grip strength upon touching a handhold; directly related to the rate of force development in the finger flexor muscles.”
And the Power Company says contact strength is “...the rate of force development in the finger flexors.”
Okay, it seems like there’s a general consensus that contact strength has something to do with the amount of force you can produce when you grab a hold. There were also a couple mentions of this term “rate of force production,” which they say is closely related to contact strength. So what happens if we search for more info on “rate of force production”?
Success! There are multiple research articles that mention rate of force production, or RFD. Let’s dive into RFD and try to understand what it really means in a climbing context.
RFD RESEARCH ARTICLE ONE
The first article on RFD we’ll look at is called Four Weeks of Finger Grip Training Increases the Rate of Force Development and the Maximal Force in Elite and Top World-Ranking Climbers.
In this experiment, the researchers looked at how a specific type of training would affect the RFD of their athletes’ fingers. They instructed the subjects to hold a force-measuring device “...as strongly as you can and as fast as possible.” Okay, that’s interesting! “Hold” the small hold as “strongly” and as “fast” as possible. Let’s keep those words in mind in case they can help us later.
The researchers felt...
Ran out of room!! For the rest, please check out the show notes:
www.hoopersbeta.com/library/w...
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Пікірлер: 84

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

Just to clarify at 7:18, the timeframe of 2 seconds in that example is arbitrarily chosen. The example is meant to illustrate the concept of limiting factors when generating force, not to define any specific timeframe. We probably should have said “200ms” instead of “2 seconds” just to keep things consistent with the research. Sorry for the confusion!

@MahiKoodaa 2 жыл бұрын

For me that was perfectly clear from the video already, for what it's worth :)

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

Just found the REAL scientific definition of contact strength. Turns out it was defined by Chris Sharma way back in the day. According to him, contact strength is determined by the loudness of your pssaaaattt when hitting a 4mm edge on a 60 degree overhang. Good stuff, Chris!

@bryanebert8925 2 жыл бұрын

Lol, really?

@nickbedford 2 жыл бұрын

@@bryanebert8925 It's science.

@GeekClimber 2 жыл бұрын

Liking the new format, and also thanks for the breakdown on contact strength!

@jordilund4096 2 жыл бұрын

Very cool! I never really thought about it that way before. Looking forward to the other videos in the series!

@joycewangjiayin3958 2 жыл бұрын

just discovered your channel but theres no one video that doesnt draw me to watch!!!! I really love the way you delivery the information!! so much clarity and fun!!!

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

Welcome to the channel and thank you for the comment!!

@toustih 2 жыл бұрын

Excited about this video series!

@manocaio123 2 жыл бұрын

The quality of the content on this channel is ridiculous. Ridiculously high. I cant believe youre still at 30k. Im just happy to have found you a while ago :)

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you! :) And thanks for coming along for the ride

@moonti6820 2 жыл бұрын

Top quality content again !

@Baguettezzz 2 жыл бұрын

Love this format!

@uberglurben 2 жыл бұрын

I still have no idea why we refer to RFD as contact "strength" when in every other aspect of sports science it would be referred to as contact power. Contact strength = the ability to carry out work against a resistance - eg max hangs Contact power = the ability to exert a maximal force in as short a time as possible - eg latching a hold.

@molomono9481 2 жыл бұрын

I agree with the strength and power remarks, it checks out in physics as well. But there is a difference and that is that because unlike other sports the force is limited by friction. Maximum power nor strength is achieved if your "contact strength" is bad, which is refering to the amount of initial force you can transfer into the hold before a dryfire or slip. Another way of looking at this from a physics standpoint is the effects that an impulse has on the impedance between hand and hold. I agree it is more related to power than strength and the name is poorly chosen but it really is its own thing.

@leoingson 2 жыл бұрын

"Contact" seems meant as unit of time - "on contact" (at the very moment of establishing contact). Not as "touching stuff".

@tonimartin681 2 жыл бұрын

Congrats for the new format... and for the content.!!!!! 👏👏👏

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

More to come!

@jakubm3036 2 жыл бұрын

great format!

@peterpham00 2 жыл бұрын

When Hooper Beta videos come out it's like getting an early Christmas present, but better and more often. 👌👌👌

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

🎉 🎄 Christmas all year!! Haha

@alvarobriceno4500 3 ай бұрын

Love it. Thanks

@BastienAdrien 2 жыл бұрын

I like the new format, on many occasions it can be very helpful showing graphs and images! It has the same caveat like all presentations...as soon as a lot of text is used my brain initially doesn't know if it should listen or read and I feel that some times I take away less information than if there wouldn't have been a text additionally to the speaker. Since you're such an excellent présenter and rhetorically gifted I'd like the screen to be focused on images, graphs, whatever to support your talking points, instead of showing what you're gonna say anyway. I guess I am somewhat of an auditive learner though, so my opinion surely is biased :) I agree with others, the amount of subs on this channel is no where to the quality of the content, it's amazing for science nerd climbers 🥸😁✌🏽

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

Appreciate the feedback! Always a tough balance between showing the right amount of text versus just having interesting photos/graphs :)

@philipbrocklehurst3745 2 жыл бұрын

Super interesting topic, big difference in RFD requirement between slow static climbing (e.g. Trad) and dynamic moves in bouldering! I think Tyler Nelson has been doing a bunch of experiments around this sort of stuff with force measuring kit.

@ali_valhalla2313 2 жыл бұрын

Ah yes, this is the kind of juicy nerdiness I was craving! I keep preaching RFD with my 'peers' down at the local wall. In my experience 'Contact strength' seems massively neurologically dependent, i.e. coffee and ample speedy movement warm ups are more effective than climbing 'strong' problems that don't require that 'snap' factor, if you're intending to climb in a dead-pointing heavy, dynamic style.

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

It's pretty wild how much our mental state (both conscious and unconscious) affects our climbing ability!

@larathompson1981 2 жыл бұрын

Great video. I'm a nerd and have been reading 'The Science and Practice of Strength Training" and they discuss the topic very well comparing max strength vs power vs time limited application of force (as in throwing). Funny enough too: I just wrote up a geeky post on data science + bouldering where I refer to contact strenght to help people understand the concept of power!

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the insight, I'll have to check out that book :)

@jeremydoesbouldering 2 жыл бұрын

this felt like a college lecture, but better ;)

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

I’ll take that as a win!

@christophedurand811 2 жыл бұрын

Very interesting! Thanks :)

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

Glad you liked it!

@codyheiner3636 2 жыл бұрын

Great video! I think my contact stregnth to max finger strength ratio is pretty low (which makes sense as I'm much more of a lead climber than boulderer). In fact, I think this idea of contact strength : finger strength ratio could be a very useful metric for planning training routines.

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

That would make for some interesting research!

@NWRinehart 2 жыл бұрын

Ahhhh, gimme parts 2 and 3 already!

@abc.2924 2 жыл бұрын

I always thought it's the strength you are able to apply as you grab the hold and hold onto it and the ability to activate correct muscles

@wilsonnester750 2 жыл бұрын

Damn, this really makes me miss The Wall. Stoked to see people from there making good stuff

@psicologiageneraleconalleg369 2 жыл бұрын

I really like your green screen! But I can't focus on what you're saying and read at the same time... I'd suggest to use it more for keywards, articles etc (which you already do). Great video! Love you!

@stitch3163 2 жыл бұрын

Huh… and here I thought “RFD” was “rear flank downdraft” as related to tornados. Well I think that you have set this series up quite well and looking forward to the follow-on super sweet episodes.

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

Rear flank downdraft sounds really cool so I might just start calling it that 😜

@bryanebert8925 2 жыл бұрын

Great video, thanks for the explanations. What device are you using to measure force in this video? I've been wanting to get one.

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

It's the Gstrength scale by Exsurgo Technologies. That one is a bit pricey though! There are many crane scale options that are much less expensive, depending on your needs.

@seamusmcc5 2 жыл бұрын

I wonder how this is effected when a climber anticipates having to used good contact strength on a hold. I find that if I know I'm going to grabbing a smaller hold, I can sort of start engaging those muscles ahead of time, just as my hand is reaching the hold. Other times, on an onsight attempt most often, I feel the hold and then determine the "amount" of contact strength I need, or how much I need to focus my attention on that contact strength as opposed to other things like body position or another contact point.

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

That's certainly part of the mental commitment aspect. You already know how much effort/energy you'll have to put into it so you put more effort into the commitment. Functional contact strength :)

@qweasd9153 2 жыл бұрын

I always thought that contact strength was the same as forearm's power. The RFD upon hitting the hold

@xinsanedefeatx Жыл бұрын

So I imagine just getting reps in of landing dynamic moves that require high RFD would be the best way to train for "contact strength" if it's mainly neurological I wonder if RFD is specific to grip style (open, crimp, pinch, etc) the same way that strength is?

@sightreader2507 2 жыл бұрын

What's your take on cooling down after climbing ? From the limited research I've done, there's no evidence that it could induce injury risk. Would stretching the overused muscles in climbing (finger flexors, lats, the entire shoulder girdle etc.) be beneficial to avoid tightness that can lead to problems, or is it not any better than stretching at any other time ?

@leoingson 2 жыл бұрын

It'd be beneficial to NOT overuse the muscles ;) Build up strength 1st - auxilliary training (calisthenics or whatever), later quick intense boulder sessions. Then make those muscles endure more. Seems to work for me (I'm halfway there).

@default7621 Жыл бұрын

The abstract at 2:30 does say contact strength?

@TheDii97 2 жыл бұрын

My contact strength isn't great so I am really interested to see how I can improve it! So hurry up with part 2 & 3 😅

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

Workin’ on it! :) filmed Part 2 this past weekend and the script for part 3 is almost done

@olivierhuet9860 2 жыл бұрын

I had a totally different understanding of the term. To me it was something along these lines. The amount of friction you can generate by applying force on the hold through your hands. Which depends and the hold, skin condition, surface of the contact area between your hand and the hold and force applied. Is there a term for that ?

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

I think that would be more like “functional grip strength.” “Functional” because you’re incorporating real-world variables like skin condition rather than pure, isolated grip strength. -Emile

@olivierhuet9860 2 жыл бұрын

@@HoopersBeta Thanks

@leoingson 2 жыл бұрын

I'd call that "conditions" ;-)

@alberca90 2 жыл бұрын

hey so i have what i believe is sort of a strange issue, a while back after a climbing session i injured my big toe simply from applying too much pressure on really small footholds, it felt like some sort of tendon or ligament strain and i've noticed that out of all the youtube channels ive seen that talk about climbing techniques and injuries, no one ever talks about the injuries you can get from the enormous amount of force that you have to apply to your big toes for certain climbs which is what makes me think well maybe i'm just weird and this isn't common for most climbers (my toes are a bit longer than most people's tbh), i am able to climb now but i do still have this chronic pain in that toe that has never truly gone away, even though it is a lot more tolerable now and i haven't injured it again since, but anyway, i was wondering if toe anatomy as it relates to climbing is something you're able to discuss as well as injury causes and prevention/treatment.. it's weird, i feel like this type of injury would be a lot more common but i don't know anyone else who has had this issue, so idk, maybe my toes are just too long lol

@leoingson 2 жыл бұрын

Get stiffer shoes, they take a lot of load off the toes.

@ryanbester7990 2 жыл бұрын

Where did the 200ms Come from? Is it measured from other research which shows neurological limitations for that amount of time?

@leoingson 2 жыл бұрын

Seems to come from that boulder study - that you need to establish enough force in that timeframe, or you'll drop.

@patrickbryant_ 2 жыл бұрын

Fascinating, I have definitely not been using the term in this context. What would you call the type of strength needed to efficiently distribute force on slopers? In my head "contact strength" was related to "contact patch", a key concept in tire design for maximizing tire grip under deformations of the rubber. Larger tires allow the use of a softer compound because the shearing force between the road and the tire is spread over more material. Softer material deforms more into the road surface and provides a better coefficient of friction but cannot survive as much shear force. In my head "contact strength" was the hand's analogue to this; a combination of good skin condition and well distributed pressure between hand and surface.

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

I think that's one of the most interesting things about contact strength in the real world; there are so many variables that affect your ability to generate force on a hold. That's actually one of the things we'll be discussing in part 2!

@jamesclark6257 2 жыл бұрын

So longer arms = slower power deployment as the neurological link from fingers to brain is further?

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

I suppose in a technical sense perhaps that is correct but it would be so miniscule that I wouldn't use it as a legit reason. More like. longer arms = longer lever arms = harder to generate movement at the axis so generally less power without adequate training.

@shlagin9354 Жыл бұрын

After watching the first few minutes, it seems to me that contact strength is the Impulse, or change in momentum caused by the fingers

@uploadsnstuff8902 2 жыл бұрын

Putting your "glasses" up your nose at the beginning of the video... Keep it up, got rid of some weird lingering finger pain in no time thanks to you. Since you asked about feedback about the new format : in my opinion, having content (or lots of content) to read, at once, on the screen can make it hard to follow what you're saying. Paired with the fact that, for some people, there's the need to look the speaker in the eye, it makes it even harder to read the text. I find it easier to read text when it's fullscreen and not seeing the speaker (so no back and forth between the text and the eyes). Or to read it as subtitles. The bluescreen is a nice touch, but my guess is that it takes a bit more editing time, light setting (light your side that is next to it with a different light btw, so you avoid that blue hue on your arm, makes it easier to clean in post), and set prepping. Full on post card work well enough. Or set yourself in front of the screen, and put yourself in the cards ^^ But then it's the same issue with the eyes, and we won't see the gym :(

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the feedback! We tried to keep the text on screen the same as what was being spoken most of the time so that there was a visual and auditory source of the information, but of course it's not always so simple. We'll keep experimenting to dial it in!

@ridedownlow1219 2 жыл бұрын

You should take these measurements while someone is on route climbing

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

That would be awesome! But also… impossible? There would be far too many variables keeping you from getting reliable measurements. -Emile

@intelignet 2 жыл бұрын

ok but how do I train contact strength?

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

Coming up soon!

@intelignet 2 жыл бұрын

@@HoopersBeta you're the best 🤗

@moonti6820 2 жыл бұрын

I think you somehow need the exposure of a big KZfaq channel to get the amount of subscribers and views that you definitely deserve. Have you thought about a collab ?

@HoopersBeta 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! :) Always open to collabs, the limiting factor is just time. However, it’s definitely something we’d like to do more of!