Press subscribe for more dating truth bombs. Here’s the timestamps: 00:00 Intro 00:24 Vincent’s Incredible Writing 04:45 Why Simping Doesn’t Work 10:26 What Does it Mean to be a Man? 16:48 Defining ‘Dark Gentlemen’ 25:50 Why More Men are Single than Women 34:27 Impact of Eugenics in Dating 41:32 Reality of the Gender Wage-gap 47:50 How Casual Sex Misinforms Long-term Relationship Goals 54:09 Should Humanity Return to Polygamy? 1:01:40 The Disney-fication of Relationships 1:14:06 Can Female Competency Be Detrimental in Dating? 1:18:06 Should We Take Marriage More Seriously? 1:24:12 Dealing with Fringe Groups in Society 1:29:13 Where to Find Vincent

The last thing society needs is men with nothing to lose and that is what society is doing

"You have an ever increasing group of high performing women competing for an ever decreasing group of ultra high performing men." Thats the dating world in a nutshell

I love how “giga alpha chad” is common terminology in todays intellectual discussions about society’s issues lmao

His definitions for geeks, needs and dorks has me instantly hooked. Its actually comically accurate, nice one 👌

Finally, a rational, non-toxic conversation about these crucial issues. And with data too.

Allowing Big Tech to commoditize dating/relationships has been one great big evil. As a man, I feel devalued and trapped in a disgusting dystopia.

Things I think they should have mentioned more of.. 1.) mental issues... how 2/3rd of women over 30 are on antidepressants or anxiety medication. Not to mention BPD, narcassicm, and bipolar behaviors.. in my experience those are very much a contributing factor to why im single. 2.) how its easier to replace a relationship than to fix a relationship these days. 3.) And how a lot of 20 years olds stink at communication.. such as ghosting.. and not willing to talk on the phone and really put in effort. 4.) How women are more overweight and obese these days than ever.. which a lot of men do not find attractive and yet women are told to think.. accept me for me.. and if a man doesnt like me for me being overweight, he isnt the one for me.. mentality instead of. Oh.. this is what men want? Let me lose weight then. Counter that with men.. women want tall...people cant change their height.. women want rich.. becoming wealthy isnt obtainable for everyone. A lot of it is luck based and who you know.. so impossible for men to change themselves and women could change themselves but choose not to. 4.) A lot of women have children in their early age. And thats a lot of baggage for when they get older after their failed trial run with relationships. 5.) People are so obsessed with finding red flags in people.. if you wanna look for things wrong.. you will find them and then abandon and no one is perfect.

There were many boys that stormed Normandy that broke down and cried, couldn’t go on. The fact that so many brave boys/men DID storm the beach is beyond comprehension. I will always be thankful for their sacrifice.

A bigger problem is just lack of community, dating should come about naturally after getting to know someone within your sphere of influence. dating apps and cold approach just seems unnatural, you dont even know the person, theres more fear she might say yes than no for now you need to go on a date with this person you know nothing about.

It isn’t rejection that hurts. It’s repetitive, consistent, humiliatingly aggressive rejection of every variety that hurts. Year upon year of inceldom. You’d have to be an idiot not to recognise the signs. “You are not attractive or wanted!” it screams. Message received.

A big problem, I think, is that our current dating setup is not built to maximize the potential for men and women to fall for each other. Hookup culture means the high-value men can skip from woman to woman without committing, creating trust issues and frustration in those women looking for a partner, while lower-value men grow frustrated at not getting chosen. (In addition to the problem you mention with women getting a wrong sense of their own value). Men attack women for not understanding how "good" they have it because so many guys want to sleep with them - missing the point that typically, women are actually more interested in a long-term relationship and connection, and the sex isn't always that interesting to women (A guy friend once said to me "well, even bad sex is okay," to which I replied "no. just, no."). Yes, more and more women are having casual sex, but not as much as men, and they generally don't seem as interested in casual sex, as illustrated in those college studies where colleges with fewer women had more dominant monogamy, while hookup culture was more rampant in the colleges with fewer men. Clearly, women and men have somewhat different priorities when dating and picking "mates" - and that's okay. So to my point about maximizing potential: For a woman to asses a guy, she needs to interact with him and see him do things, move about, act, get a sense of his attitude. Dating apps, first-dates and clubs aren't a good place to do this because it's not a prolonged environment - and thus women will only accept very good-looking men because, well, it's all they have to assess them with. Meanwhile, the high-value men need prolonged contact with women to actually start to develop a "you're more than sex" interest, which they were forced to in the past when they had to marry in order to have sex. (Why WOULD he develop that more-than-sex interest when there's the next lady around the bend of the next swipe? Throwback to Chris' conversation with Louise Perry). If the fuck-boy can't exist because women gatekeep, but actually have to become productive participants in the dating market, then the high-value men get taken, and lower-value men get their shot. Imagine the difference it'd make if all women collectively decided not to have sex until after having dated for three months. (Emphasis: I'm not blaming anyone who has sex earlier, I think there's a lot of pressure on women to be promiscuous, and also, if that's what they wanna do, go do it, it's a free world. But I think many women would naturally have sex later in a relationship than they currently are if the pressure wasn't to have lots of sex. I certainly felt a lot of pressure to "not be a virgin" back in high school.) For all those reasons, the easiest time to land a partner is during education - you have prolonged interaction with the opposite sex in a setting where the emphasis isn't constantly on dating. So we have to try and create spaces for the sexes to interact on a casual basis after education. Imagine if we all went to some low-key dance event every Friday. Like, no/little alcohol, just a bunch of dancing, and perhaps some rehearsed dancing so that you know what to do and WOMEN KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT. I swear, a big problem in clubs today is the uncoordinated dancing, because as a woman you never know if a guy is going to try and grab you, and even though he's simply trying to escalate - and indeed he must to get anywhere - it's such an uncomfortable situation to have a man you don't want near you try to put his hand on your waist. It's so invasive. And honestly, even if you're interested in him, a lot of women will still feel it's moving fast. I have a personal theory that women will also not dance with an approaching man not necessarily because they wouldn't be interested, but because the pain he would feel if she later rejected him and the uncomfortableness/fear of having to do so is too much. Aka. rather let a man down early than allow him to escalate things and then having to reject him or end up in a potentially uncomfortable/dangerous situation. All my girlfriends sigh and giggle at the dancing scene in the BBC Pride and Prejudice where Elizabeth and Darcy dance. It's intense and romantic, even though they barely touch. And note how the dances were created so that you could talk while you did it, but you still had to do enough that you could be excused for not having a very engaging conversation. We need those kinds of collective events where single people can meet again. Where you can get to know each other at your leisure over a period of time, and where the pressure isn't constantly to find a partner. Another thing that happens in those environments is that men and women will cheer each other on. "Go get him/her." But in the age of tinder, everyone is in competition with everyone. All of these musings are from someone who has blessedly never been in the modern dating market, but I've talked with so many frustrated friends and family members that it really concerns me to see so many people from both sexes be such great people, yet frustrated because they can't find a partner. The game is broken, guys. For BOTH sexes. And we need to fix it.

Dark Gentleman!! Thank you for coming up with this term. It describes my husband exactly. I couldn't put my finger on what it was about him that makes him such a unicorn. As for leadership in a couple, I think the best approach is just having each partner take the lead on whatever it is they have a comparative advantage in. For example, I take the lead on our finances, travel logistics, social engagements, he takes the lead on vehicle and house maintenance, anything technology related, health records. We take turns taking the lead on chores depending on who's busy with something else that needs to get done. Every couple has a different distribution of skills. I highly recommend looking for a mate who has the opposite skill set as you. Makes for much easier cooperation.

The fact that psycho-Chad is now a technical term that we all generally understand is honestly incredible

I think entitlement is a big problem in dating. People feel entitled to a relationship and look at other people as resources for their consumption. When I started dating, I fell into that mindset as well. No one is perfect and life is not fair. Just do the best with the cards you have been given and become the best version of yourself possible. Focus on self improvement and don't worry about the rest.

New to the dating market after two back-to-back long-term relationships for a total of nearly 25 years of being coupled. I’ve experimented with online dating ( if you want to call it that). I’ve been perplexed as to why major popular media has not exposed the farce of catfishing bots, professional solicitors and amateur onlyfans who are all try to monetize the dating market. I am just looking for a wholesome partner to share my life with.

Dating market is exactly what it says. We reduced our interactions into balance spreadsheet and risk assessment. We forgot meaning of sacrifice, commitment, family, meaning etc. I feel how more and more detached from my mind is from my spirit. Surely it's only me.

I've never put aside any time to pursue a relationship. I've spent most of my young adulthood trying to do well in school, so I've been out of touch for the past 4 years. What's going on now is just... wow. Almost all of my cousins are now divorced and I've decided I don't want any part of this. If I'm alone someday, so be it, that isn't something that scares me. Going to someone's funeral because he took his own life after a divorce, now that scares me.

Literally, one of the best conversations about the current dynamic between men and women. This is exactly what I’ve been telling people. You cannot take the biology out of us and what men and women find attractive. I think men are going to rise to the occasion, but I still think they won’t be high enough for the average woman who wants the top 10% of men. We shall see what happens next. I do agree it’ll get worst before it gets better.

This is probably the most brilliant guest you've ever had. I'm so happy he pointed out that the limited idea that the man must be domineering in every relationship is not the end-all be-all to every equation. Both parties in a relationship should play to their strengths and take on roles, but they don't need to be limited by preconceived notion.

I am 74. When I was growing up in Europe all a girl had to do was go dancing on Saturday and you would find a boyfriend. If he turned out a flop you got yourself another one. We had the opposite problem which was to find a way to deal with unwanted attention. But when that happened we were free to slap them or kick their a.. in a memorable creative way. The problem today is that there are no more dances and I think that happened by liberal design. Lonely people are easy to control. So they made dancing unavailable and something to be frowned upon. But it was an incredible way to get to know someone in close contact. There are rules in dancing how to. The boys knew how to touch a girl respectfully in a gentlemanlike manner and both enjoyed simply moving together according to the music. I was a teenager in the wild sixties and seventies. But while dancing everybody agreed automatically on the special code of conduct and knew where the "don't cross" line was . It is amazing what you learn about someone you dance with. It's a great stress relieve and dancing people always smile. Stop talking, use your influence, move your a.. and bring dancing Back!

"Get Woke, Go Broke" started with people noticing that "woke" movies where consistently under-performing at the box office. To be more specific, movies that were remakes of former more traditionally troped films.

As a woman I can admit that being rejected can feel humiliating because we learn that men are supposed to generally want women, so it makes you feel that something is wrong with you. On the other hand, I really respect men who are not too easy to get, who have standards and self-control AND my attachment style is on the avoidant side (so I may feel a sense of security and relief when being rejected by strangers - which is probably kinda toxic 😅). ANYWAY, I loved this conversation. Super interesting 🙏🏼

Modern dating is a mess because people expect to meet someone who is the finished ✅ article, despite not being it themselves.

People are losing social skills - I speak as a teacher here. It is not just with the opposite sex or with anyone of potential sexual interest . People are merging with technology period.

This part of some men not wanting to "put the effort in" rang pretty true for me. I'm generally pretty quiet, chill, and introverted. I don't mind spending time alone, so I don't feel so much pressure to seek relationships; however, when I do meet someone I'm intersted in I do "put the effort in". When that effort results in being alone again, it just seems like spending night after night out with them was not worth it. I could just spend that time making music, reading philosophy, playing video games with friends, which is way more fun, than trying to convince a stranger that I'm worth their time.

If I had a dime for everytime a high level researcher and genius podcast guest cited Thomas Sowell as a basis for many of their logical underpinnings, I'd be super rich! Thomas Sowell is such a genius and national treasure and never got his due to his departure from the accepted narrative.

On the topic of rejection: Every woman deals with rejection a different way. As for me, I have always been straightforward with the few guys that caught my interest. I give very clear signals to a guy that I like him, including telling him upfront. Then I would lean back and wait for him to make the next move. This is my self-preservation and "hurt-protection" strategy in a sense that I would rather suffer the hurt of rejection now when it's in the very early stages and not too emotionally invested yet. It will take time for me to get over my feelings for someone I really like. But the fact that they do not feel the same way and I know about it right away is enough consolation for me that we were not meant to build a life together. This knowledge always helped me move on from someone faster and get on with my life.

Basically these are the main factors behind our current state of relationships: - The internet has created an abundance of potential mate choices - Women have more options in terms of men and money and don’t want to commit unless “Mr charming” comes along - Men have withdrawn or changed their focus to video games, hobbies, study, career, or other forms of distraction rather than face the pain of potential rejection or the possible drama that comes with a relationship. - Other things like depression or anxiety etc hasn’t helped either

I think part of the problem is there are so many relationship gurus on both sides either spewing non-sense or convincing people to behave in ways that aren't authentic to them!

I’ve asked out a few men and the ones that said no were so gentle and so kind with me, it wasn’t all that painful. If the rejection was loud and belittling I would have been a puddle on the floor.

I've asked out two men, and was rejected both times. However, the second guy would have said yes, I think, if he wasn't already in a relationship. Obviously I didn't know that when I asked him. I handled both rejections very well because I went into the situations expecting rejection. "Hope for the best, plan for the worst". I sincerely wish both guys all happiness, and hold no hard feelings.

I find this topic really interesting... i was just talking about how it seems the relationship dynamic between men and women has changed a lot in the past 60 years. I've been with my partner for 10 years and it seems like the whole dating situation has even changed a lot since then. Women are being influenced to act in more traditionally masculine ways. It's ironic that modern feminism endorses that message... to be successful, you must act more like a man. Yet, the patriarchy is bad for society and needs to be smashed?!

This went way deeper than just dating. Socieology + idealism + psychology + psychopathology + scientific method

This is one of the most hands down intelligent, powerful, life changing conversation and exchange ever. 🙌 I love this podcast

Woman here 👋 rejection hurts for us too and is far more motivating than this conversation gives credit to - however, the rejection that is most motivating is intrasexual. Many of these women who can’t get a boyfriend bc they’re going for the wrong guys AREN’T happy about being single. But what are they going to do? The pressure they perceive from other women and society is so strong that it’s virtually impossible to fight it. Hypergamy certainly plays a role here but it only answers part of this question.

An interesting conversation, thanks chaps. I must say I'm very glad I did almost all my flirting / dating / philandering in the previous century when one didn't need a lawyer and a psychiatrist in tow.

Love this conversation. Thank you! Since you asked us ladies, I have no problem telling a man if I am interested in him. It’s very rare for me because I am a reclusive artist and I love solitude so much. So when I do tell a man I am interested in him, it’s because I think he is attractive and inspiring and I can see how I can spend time with him joyfully. I get rejected because I definitely overdo it in expressing my attraction when I do. I am very masculine in my confidence levels and also very romantic in expressing myself and that scares men with good reason, they are terrified of being cornered into a relationship. Meanwhile they have no idea how scared I am of getting in a relationship with them. I don’t know if I can even be in a relationship anymore because I have been alone so long and I really need my solitude when I need it. The ‘pain’ of rejection is very short term, because I believe life’s rejection is God’s protection. I would rather be rejected than used and I think the men who rejected me respected me enough to reject me and I am grateful that they didn’t take advantage of my attraction to them to lead me on.

As a woman, I’ve been rejected and it doesn’t feel good. But, you tell yourself what you need to in order to bounce back. If I got rejected as much as a man gets rejected, I honestly don’t know if I would bounce back. Men have it way more difficult to maintain their self esteem while constantly getting rejected. Maybe there needs to be a mindset shift? That rejection isn’t bad, it’s just part of the natural order of things for my men? Btw- as a woman, I hate to see so many men lose their spirit when it comes to dating… This isn’t good, for society, or for women, or for future generations. I’m glad this podcast exists, we need to talk more about this topic.

It's interesting that most tips for getting girls is just "go out and suffer more and more until maybe you get something". How about we destigmatize rejection and not make guys feel like shit in general instead? Kinda stupid to just leave it to "keep going until something happens".

It was asked that women who had taken the onus to do the asking comment on how we felt about being the one risking rejection. I felt great about it. Honestly I didn’t care that much if he rejected me. I just wanted to be the one to do the picking for a change. I had come to a point where I realized I lacked power in selecting the type of person I wanted to pair with because the kind of man I wanted wasn’t ever the kind to approach me. I kept getting the con artist bull shit type who only viewed me as a stereotype, not a real 3D person. The kind of person I wanted was someone like me. Earnest. Hardworking. Humble. Kind. Prone to say less and do more. Those are never the guys who approached at a bar or a party. My sister knew what I was looking for and she is very gregarious. She noticed him and talked to him a lot before she suggested I go meet him. She told me the type of person he was. We mixed in the same general social circles and I noted what I liked about him- the way he treated people and animals, the projects he worked on etc. He said hello in passing once. I decided he was interesting and I made a concerted effort to introduced myself. After several casual interactions I decided he was not likely to be confident enough to ask me out himself. So I flat out told him that if he asked me out I would say yes. And I then I left it at that. At this point I knew he was an amazingly talented person but he was also shy. Worst case scenario he wouldn’t ask me out. I had lots of guys who were interested in me - I would just move on. He looked at me for a second and then immediately kissed me- which was way more than I had expected but I forgave him. There were no other girls competing for him. I still marvel at that because it was screamingly obvious to me he was an excellent potential mate. All I can say is lots of people are really dumb about love. He didn’t have much money or things but what he had he earned himself. His grades were ok but he loved working and making things. He was never waiting around for something to happen - he was creative with an incredible energy level. The projects he took on were audacious and he tenaciously worked to see them through. He made things happen. If he said something he meant it. We have been married over thirty years. He has been a highly involved parent and very successful in his career. He is also an excellent romantic partner. I still marvel at how dumb other people were to have passed him up. He’s more than I ever dared hope for and I am very lucky to be his wife.

Getting rejected over and over doesn’t make it easier, at least not for me. I still feel the sting of rejection just as strong the 100th time as I did the first time.

In so many of these conversations regarding the dating market, and the current situation of very few men having access to almost all of the women, the inevitable violence and societal collapse that results is never brought up. Either people don’t know about this or are avoiding the topic. I was very glad to hear Vincent bring it up and for Chris to have his epiphany. This does not end well.

Vincent is so right about courage. I've learned this as a man. Even as a young boy, even if you're bleeding, you get back up and keep going. You get up that hill no matter how steep it is to go up. You give your best no matter what. Thanks for sharing this info. God bless you both , Chris and Vincent!

This is a much needed conversation more people should have.

Hypergamy has always been around, however with the increase in technology like online dating and social media, it's skewed the normal hypergamy standards so much that now even the average woman is only going for top level men.

What hurts is being misunderstood and ostracized by our older male figures when they can't understand why we have a hard time dating.

Every Woman ACTUALLY wants and needs, a Warrior that CHOOSES to sheath his sword.

From my perspective, once a women overcomes that initial fear of rejection she knows what to expect. The way I personally thought was that it was impossible that all men could be attracted to me therefore it was bound to happend. I simply always knew that I had a lot to offer so it didn't affect the perseption I had of myself. Funny story is that my husband actually rejected me the first time around.

There are reasons that there was huge opposition to the sexual liberation movement by older folks. The normalisation of sex outside of marriage was always going to lead to these perverse outcomes. Both genders were incentivised to marry to meet their sexual needs. This kept the top 4% of men somewhat in check. It was better for women because on average they were after a stable relationship more than sexual gratification anyway. Studies show that men want to marry virgins and that women tend to be more sexually gratified the less partners they have had. Literally the only people to have "benefited" from sexual liberalisation are the top 4% of men.

I find it tremendously difficult just to find a recognition for the problem with modern dating. Most of the people from the previous generations I know are just numb to it, because it is no longer in their scoop of interest since they have already secured a relationship. And when it comes to women, they still follow the narrative of the stigma that patriarchy has inflicted on them in the past. In their minds it is still an ongoing problem and with almost every single woman I feel like we were rivals not fellow human beings who stand a chance of cooperating to raise a descendant. I believe that the idea of creating a society where both genders are supposed to be profoundly carrier oriented has an economical motive. However, I believe it has an opposite effect. It was in my primary school, when we were taught that a family is the fundamental cell of the society, hence the building block of economy. I have my own empirical experience. All of the colleagues that are older than me and have a family are much more willing to work long hours and have a greater ambition than me. I have no motivation to make a lot of money for myself. The result of this all is that I just want to leave this society and contribute as little as possible. I don´t know, it might be just me, but I would say it is happening in a much greater than individual scale.

'Hallmark of masculinity is emotional control' best definition I've heard.

It is not about being disagreeable. It is about standing your ground and have self love/integrity. Sometimes you can agree, if you truly agree.

G. K. Ghesterton “Don't ever take a fence down until you know the reason it was put up.” As a society we should be more careful of taking down the mores and traditions of the past.

This entire conversation scares the shit out of me. I live in a really small town too so it’s even worse. I feel so hopeless and depressed about the lack of meaningful relationships not just in my own life but around me. Useless guys and hyper disagreeable single moms everywhere

In regards to how rejection is perceived by women: I found an interesting problem when trying to ask out men. I would probably describe myself as a physically attractive woman and when asking out men they would almost always go out with me or try to have sex. It was extremely difficult to find out if there was any genuine interest on the man’s side. The consequence was often even more painful rejection later on after intimacy or after feelings already developed. Women have more to lose when it comes to sex and having men approach women and put in more effort makes it easier for us to detect who has genuine interest.

They said it right at the beginning. Women are fine alone and if they can't be in a relationship that makes them happy, they are happy alone

I love how “career woman” is being tossed around like this is the 1970’s. No friends, it is 2022, and everyone has bills to pay so they got a job, even women.

I think the struggles most men face in dating has forced them to ask questions about the usefulness of a woman in their lives. I think that when a man asks that question, it’s very hard to come up with a good answer that justifies the effort and greatness needed to get one. For men, dating is really just carrying the weight of a woman’s existence - that’s it quite frankly. And the requirements women have on men wouldn’t be as high as they are if this weren’t true.

This podcast is very appreciated! There are just too many videos that are talking about only one side, either male or female and this stream was just helpful have someone who is not bias to only one side. I think to solve our societal problems strong thinkers from both sides have to come together and try to get somewhere! Thank you very much Chris for this video!

I love being married and having four kids. I love working hard to provide for my wife and kids. I love hanging out with friends every now and then, when family life allows. Without the purpose, structure and future this gives me, I would be waisting so much time.

I have enjoyed so many of Chris Williamson's YT episodes, but this one may have been the best. High praise.

Storming the beaches of Normandy was not an individual decision. You get on the troop ship because your group is getting on the ship, not because, upon reflection, you determine that getting on the troop ship is how you are expressing mastery of your emotions to do what needs to be done. The same with climbing down the cargo nets and exiting the landing craft. You are doing what your group is doing because you are too scared to do anything else. Similarly, dating used to be a public, group activity. You dated, in part, because your group dated.

This was a great podcast for laypersons who are just getting into the social science and economics of the modern dating scene. But it's all basically review for anyone who's spent a significant amount of time researching it. It's a good summary to send to your normie friends or your mom who's pressuring you to marry the neighbor girl who is like 2.5 points higher than you on the looks scale and trying to explain why that's unlikely.

For me, don't settle means don't settle for someone who is abusive or who treats you badly, who is lazy. Also, you should not settle for someone you aren't emotionally and sexually compatible with along with personality. God, if i had added abs and money to that list i would have never found my partner 😂😂

You two have a great mind for nuance. It's a blessing, in this day and age, to be able to enjoy long-form and thoughtful discussion, with thanks to the have minimal moral/ethical bias.

50:48 If a man I just had a first/second date with said, bluntly but with sincerity, "my intentions with dating you is to marry you" -- it would be a bit much (we barely know eachother after all), but the SINCERITY of being that direct/blunt about what he ultimately wants (to be in a committed relationship/marriage, eventually kids/family, etc), is incredibly attractive/sexy. Even if you make the statement more vague, "Im dating bc I want to get married & start a family" -- that's sexy/attractive bc it takes the guesswork out of things. It (hopefully) removes the bullsh¡tting that's so prevalent in modern dating. You can take it even further, for example, a man who DOESN'T want a committed relationship (but does want sexual access), if hes honest/transparent about it. Most women would respect that. She can then choose to walk away, stay knowing the situation, stay (foolishly thinking) she can change his mind or be in the same boat as far as not wanting a relationship, but wanting more sexual experiences. To quote a movie [Kate & Leopold]: "Women respond to sincerity."

Extreme ownership, ambition and emotional control are hallmarks of a mature adult human. Many people spend years "taking advantage of their youth" instead of building themselves into competent animals that can think and do for themselves. They aren't becoming emotionally independent and they're amassing an impressive collection of unhealthy coping mechanisms like promiscuity, over work, over spending, drugs, toxic friendships and chemically stimulating internet experiences. The problems our society is experiencing have little to do with gender and a lot to do with our obsession with immaturity and ego. But you CAN have fun as an adult, it's ok to grow up. I like that sprinkle of autism reference 👽

Love the conversation. Nice work, Chris. Woman here. I had about zero success making the first move. It was rare (I'm married now) that I would approach someone who was not already showing interest in me. I didn't feel so terrible being rejected because I knew it was a long shot and you could say I did it for experimental purposes only. The rumors are true: Men prefer to make the first move. AND, women are in charge of letting them know when they want to be moved on. I tried to stick with the ones where the attraction was already mutual; then: let them think it's all their idea, let him talk you into going out with him, let him "win." Smile, laugh together. Done.

“Only when you have lost everything you’re free to do anything”

As a women who isn’t seen as very attractive(*very* tall and overweight)…. Rejection sucks. I am 20 and I have asked out 3 different guys(who I thought were interested) but was rejected each time. I have never been asked out. And no one really has sympathy for you because you’re a woman and you’re supposed to have all this male attention(I *actually* have no men in my dms). It’s hella lonely.

My mother was a working professional (geologist) and she has expressed to us that she regretted not spending more time with my brother and I when we were young.

Always fascinating and enlightening conversations, promoting further discussions in social circles. Keep 'em coming, Chris.

"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"

As a female I think the pain of rejection lingers longer, my male coworker describes getting rejected all the time but I think they learn it earlier and it becomes more familiar and not so spirit shattering, meanwhile if a woman goes outside of the norm and gets rejected, it personally affected me for months. I’ve learned it is a woman’s job to show a hint of interest but then should be up to the man to pursue which would be his natural instinct I think if they were healthy and their hormones were balanced in today’s society.

Men don't want to play the romance game, because the consequences of divorce are too high for him and future children. Change the divorce laws, get rid of no fault divorce, or population collapse is inevitable.

Here's a thought. Woman will clearly show if they are interested in a guy even if social norms dictate he makes the first move. If he can read these obvious signs and approaches her, he won't get rejected at least at first. After that it's about vibe and compatibility which is complex and multi tiered. Perhaps some guys are not happy when they understand that the woman who are actually interested in them are less attractive than they were expecting, ignore them, and continue to get rejected by woman out of their league. Some will actually get a woman they think is out of their league but realize soon after they carry a lot of esteem and mental health issues and it doesn't work out. Maybe the self esteem movement made people think they have way more available choices than they actually do, and evolutionary biology will continue to burst their bubbles.

I hope Vincent continues to write more, I think his writing and coming on the podcast are extremely beneficial to people and I don't know what he's referencing when he says he can do more

This dude is crazy smart. Loved this episode.

my own dad would come home, lift the lid of the cooking pot, check out what my mom was cooking, and if he wasn't a fan of that dish (mind you, it was standard food, nothing outlandish or disgusting), he would leave and go eat a sandwich somewhere💀 Mind you he never brought food home or took us out to eat. Nor was he interested in contacting with his kids. He also didn't work for 15yrs before retiring. He laid at home, watched TV, slept the whole day, and let my mom go work 30hrs/week, do the groceries, cook, clean, wash his clothes, and bring out the trash. I have thus zero respect for the "old school values" and I would never ever settle with a man who demanded of me to do all the housework. I'm honestly surprised my mom didn't divorce him, cause he was also very moody and they had fought every single days for years and years. Our only safeguard from poverty was the state's monthly financial support, which is why I'll forever be grateful to the anonymous taxpaying masses for saving mine and my sister's otherwise messed up childhood.

Such a risky topic but discussed carefully and thoughtfully. This was an absolutely incredible discussion.

I think what is truly needed is education of the other sex and how to be in a relationship. Our perceptions are so horribly subverted by Disney, porn, the huge percentage of failed marriages we see and so much aggravation and suffering is either the partner not meeting your expectations or frustration at not knowing how to act yourself. The socially gifted can usually pick it up with a bit of experience but the less socially gifted or even those on the spectrum are going to have a worse time of it, especially if there's no example of a successful relationship in the home.

The reason men stop committing crime at 25* is they mature and grow up. Good men achieve more in the same time period, testosterone enhances fuels who you are, not cause it.

I think rejection is painful in the moment but afterwards I’m usually relieved because I no longer have to ponder whether or not the man is interested in me. I see rejection as a necessary part of the journey to finding a meaningful relationship.

I like how Chris is actually asking tough questions and for further elaboration into the data or concepts vs simply bashing one gender or the other. Men and women need each other. And even as women make more, in large urban cities, one salary is simply not enough anymore unless you're in the top 5%. Top 10% is middle class for many of the US coastal cities.

Fundamentally, the issue we have today comes down to Socialisation. Women are now being socialised to become masculine and men are being socialised to become feminine. If you can reverse that then you might see a return to equilibrium.

I have been overwhelmingly been asked out more often than I have done the asking, but I have experienced rejection, starting as a teenager where the guys I liked, rarely liked me back. But with the right perspective, you realize there is value in being rejected, because as I discovered, I had to self analyze how to become the kind of woman that would get less often rejected. That is how you uncover and develop skills, traits and characteristics that are more ‘marketable/ desirable’ and which courtship approaches are more effective. My male role model, my grandpa, gave excellent advice. One of the more memorable things he said was: “Men are only as good as the women in their lives expect them to be.” It is absolutely true in my experience. I’ve also determined that “Men like a woman worthy of the chase, but they don’t want to be outgunned or outmanned when they catch you”. This is why high value women who are more than just beautiful are a threat to men, and why they therefore tend to just chase beauty. Beauty is not a threat to them, while a better sense of humor, greater social influence, higher education and income, broader range of skills, and extreme proficiency at nearly anything… are all threats to a man’s ego. Which is why men say they want a smart woman, but the asterisk the follows is: just not smarter than them. And this is really why just being a height/ weight proportionate female who isn’t obviously crazy or mean, and takes care of her appearance even a little, likely has lots of dating prospects. Until she demonstrates that she’s smarter, more ambitious, more aggressive or any number of “mores” than the man, at which point although she has a stronger gravitational pull for life success around her, the man will ultimately see her as a liability in his own life. Ambitious, confident men may be able to handle more ambitious and confident women, but they still often choose those with less because they like the sharper contrast in qualities, and want less competition with their home life so they can focus that on the workplace. In a society where women are not stripped of their power to make men feel more powerful, and all categories of people are more determined to not “settle” with their inflated sense of social value, whether it’s accurate or not, more people will choose to be single. My grandpa also said: “Men should always be the pursuers because they don’t value women who chase them.” And I have found that to be nearly always accurate. Women go where men can find her and then makes herself available for being approached. The male’s ego then stays intact when he is successful in getting any kind of commitment from her, be it exchanging info, a date, or more. Women must then go “fishing” with lures for attention in the dating scene, while men who actually want to participate in dating, mating and procreating, are actively “hunting”. As a woman going “hunting” for a man, I have found that can be exciting, fun, and rewarding, but only temporarily. No long term relationship of mine has ever come from my asking out or pursing a man. And I can’t think of any marriages or long term successful relationships that have either. Maybe the man overcoming rejection and finally finding the right women by being the right man, IS the only natural selection process. You don’t see female birds or lions or dolphins, that are monogamous wooing the males. Men might be flattered by a woman asking them out, but how often do they make her a wife and the mother of their children? How innate is the urge for men to be the successful hunter, and for a valuable woman to be the prize? Maybe any alternative to this narrative is fighting biology.

So much interesting stuff to dive into here. I've listened to a few of your videos now, and I really like how neutral they are. A lot of videos discussing these topics have a hard time not dipping into fundamentally blaming one of the sexes, so it's nice to see a more sober attitude.

I'll be 33 this summer, and I think I'm officially opting out on relationships. I'll die single.

More podcasts like this, please! Fascinating, fascinating stuff. We need to keep this conversation going.

One thing that isn’t talked about a lot is understanding the concept of attraction beyond initial attraction. Many men make mistakes throughout the courtship process that they may not realize contributes to higher amounts of rejection vs those that have learned from those “attraction mistakes.” Attraction and understanding emotional connection holds higher sway over resources or status with women that are initially interested in that man.

always a pleasure to listen to these interviews

Hi there, thank you for a wonderful podcast! Those are really important topics, and I’m glad that someone is finally opening up a discussion about this! As you’ve asked a POV on rejections from a fellow female, here’s what I’ve experienced dealing with rejection: Growing up in Russia, and in a family where the conservative gender dynamics are highly promoted (girls need to be submissive and feminine, while guys need to be proactive, decisive and masculine), I am very comfortable with men asking me out rather me initiating stuff. If anything, my flirting is always indirect, and mostly looks like ‘testing the waters’, and making small insignificant moves, that might trigger some action from a guy’s side. There’s been some situations where I tried making the first move, and ngl it made me highly HIGHLY anxious. And some of times - I’ve been rejected after putting myself out there. And oh gosh it hurt like a motherfucker, mostly because I felt that I already made an extra effort and step that I shouldn’t be taking, and portrayed myself as ‘desperate’ and ‘unwanted’ already. So yeah, Vincent’s idea about female POV was quite accurate, I would maybe just add that having to make the first move for me, and being rejected after making the first move really adds to the feeling of inadequacy, so I usually make my move by tilting the guys towards making the move on me:) and I really wish it was easier, and I could just make a move and feel comfortable with myself, even after a rejection. But, I still think that on average, a woman, who’s very proactive in dating is more frequently off-outing than not, due to ‘proactivity’ being more of a masculine feature, rather than feminine. But it’s just my opinion, and based on my experience.

One of the most intellectual RP discussions I've ever seen. Great video!

Pain of rejection is brutal for us! Men always say they want to be approached and asked out by women... they just never seem to say "Yes." I don't ask anymore.

Thank you and congrats on the 500.000, Chris!

A lot of this still pushes the "the guys are losers, the girls are fine" notion that is just untrue. OnlyFans shows how many pathetic men are out there but it's funny when Vincent who is a data guy doesn't go into the numbers of the Pareto principle and a massive amount of women only choose the ultra high level guy, hence the complaint of women having ludicrous standards. A lot of men are ledt out in the cold through no fault of their own but at the mercy of increasingly social demands of what's considered an attractive male.

This was an outstanding analysis, thank you both!

If you go to a polygamous society, you need to ensure there are a lot of wars, so you can refocus the attention of unattached males, and severely reduce their numbers.

Hi Chris! I'm really enjoying your content. ♥️ Thank you!