Hard to swallow pills

The lovable scrunkus himself

Pls nerf scrimblo bimblo

I think Scrimblo Bimblo for the Scrungtendo 48 SUCKS

Found myself replaying that bit like 5 times, and the first comment I see talks about it. I love it

Who's Potemkin?

@@bofi1280 a grappler from the guilty gear series.

@@dragonfire634 Thanks.

@@bofi1280 This big guy: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/nuCUYLelqJqsn3U.html

Being hard = being weak sure buddy

What a garbage ass game that was. Thank God for Ultimate.

I know, Bowser in both 4 and Ultimate is also kind of a stasised, meta-proof consistent pick, because he has really good defensive burst options, and always has a resting chance of just killing someone in a couple interactions, even if he's getting his spiky ass handed to him. Less in Ultimate, Bowser with Rage in 4 was silly. In Ultimate, he couples that with a pretty neat rushdown/grappler(esque) hybrid thing. Ultimate Bowser is FAST, and surprisingly difficult to zone out.

Bayonetta could kill either in one interaction lol. Cloud struggled more, but even then it was a winning matchup simply because he could just not interact.

@@Thorognahbayo's side and upb both ignored the weight value of the character they hit, so superheavies objectively faired better into bayo combos than a character like jiggs.

Smash isn't a fighting game

I'm with you on that one. Damage numbers are more easily adjusted, getting a character's options right on the first run of implementation often determines where they'll end up tier-wise.

Balancing based on life is always a terrible idea. See: Phoenix, Akuma, Seth, Vergil etc etc

yeah you're right but Grapplers sometimes makes extreme damage but the problem is that they have to get close to you and they are slow and hard to play

Yup. And when they do get in, they often have the hardest to execute moves (360 motions/buffering anyone?). Way too much work for too little payoff. Meanwhile most rushdown/pixie characters can do more damage with simple BNB combos and its widely considered fine gameplay. Zoners also get hurt because they are given low health, slow moves, and limited options for the benefits of range (which is fine but often a bit over tuned). I am also a bit dubious about the claims of a high-tiered grappler being inherently unfun. I'm not sure why fighting a grappler is inherently more frustrating than any number of rushdown characters who can 50/50/vortex you at will. Characters like Broly, Potemkin, Clark etc... show you can have fun and effective grapplers that don't destroy popularity/the meta all that much. I think your premise about the overvaluing of single hits and HP bars hits close to the real reason. Its a fighting game 'truism' that people have repeated forever that just really isn't true (outside of a rare few like Potemkin who actually hits like a truck).

They also tend to focus on mistakes of the opponent, if they are really good then it’s extremely hard to get anything going

In Tekken 1 he had a +90 something on block mid poke for some reason but aside from that he's definitely never been top tier

I have very limited tekken experience, so bear with me: I'm assuming wavedashing and kbds are your preferred way of moving. Do characters have different dash startups/distances/qualities and does that translate to character categories? asked differently, is king less mobile than other - specifically non-grappler - characters?

Tekken also doesn't really have projectiles, they still have zoners in a way with some attacks having big hitboxes but in general grapplers are better in Tekken just cause they don't have to deal with projectiles as much. Then even in 7 which added a lot of projectile characters you can still use the z axis to sidestep them much easier than in a 2D fighter

@@ddublu If I remember correctly KBD’s are universal except on characters that have a back sway like Paul or Bryan (they can still KBD but it’s harder). Wave Dashing is exclusive to characters that have special steps like the Mishimas and Bruce. I don’t think King can Wave Dash, but he has other mobility tools like this neat little spin jump. As for dash startup, I actually have no idea.

@@GodOfOrphans Yeah, the only characters that had projectiles throughout the series were the Devil characters. At high level though, even those lasers were useless because of side stepping, like you said, and cause slow startup.

I think a lot of the reason zoners are a little poorer now is because devs remember how strong they used to be in games like SF2. Like, Balrog has several re-dizzy combos in Champion Edition, but he ranks at the very bottom in most tier lists for the game because it is so easy for most characters to keep him from ever getting close enough to unleash his fury. Just updating his Turn Punch to allow it to go through projectiles in Hyper Fighting made a lot of difference in how usable he was against zoners. Still considered low-tier, though, even in HF.

@@gargervon8697 Yeah way weaker fireballs now compared to say SF2 World Warrior

"how could you have forgotten Jupiter from Sailor Moon S?" The forbidden game

When grapplers are done right they are my favorite archetype bar none. I love the feeling of out thinking my opponent or commiting to a risky move and having it pay off. when you're losing your losing pretty badly but winning makes it worth it. As someone who does actually fight and do some martial arts I wish more game would make grappling accurate to how it is irl. Grapplers aren't big slow heavy guys. They're big fast heavy guys. Grappling is fast not slow.

@@azechase6597 exactly, and instead of ridiculous damage there could be a trade off for unique movement options and better oki. I love ramon for this in KOF but he is still bottom tier somehow...

Figuring out how to do well with a grappler is incredibly rewarding, for sure. I almost always have a secret-best character and they're almost always grapplers where I've figured out something degenerate. You have to keep them in your pocket most of the time lest you anger your friends though...

Just like in real MMA everyone hates grapplers lol

@@azechase6597 There are a few "fast" grapplers that focus on using grabs for resets rather than pure damage (Android 16 and Kouma from Melty come to mind)

Indeed, it's all about the game and the mechanics, and the characters will get stronger accordingly.

He said all of that though. He mentioned that Nether Realm games typically have stronger zoners, and he specifically mentioned the Injustice series. His point is that in most games zoners aren't great. We can look at the zoner characters in SF2 (pick your favorite version) and they're very strong. Then 3 came out and they became irrelevant due to the parry mechanic. MVC has only had one decent zoner in their entire lineup and that's Megaman from MVC2. But that was more cheese (jump backwards and spam heavy punch) than anything else. Even in MKX, the two best (and frankly only viable) characters were a zoner and a rush down. Even in a Nether Realm game where they like to have strong zoners, the other broken character is rush down. Even the exceptions have broken rush down characters. TLDR; other than a few outliers, zoners have become weak, grapplers have almost always been weak, and rush down is the strongest. That's the new normal for fighting games.

@@fumoffu_l Not only you didn't add anything new, but you only gave wrong information. In MKX, all types of the 4 types of archetypes (Zoning, Rushdown, Balanced and Grapplers) are viable, it's just that Rushdown is the most accessible one, but all 4 of them had at least some chars with Variations for that archetypes that were viable. Also in MVC games there were other strong Zoners besides Megaman, there were Magneto (outside of MVC2), Morrigan (MVC3), Sentinel, Dr. Doom and more. Having Zoning chars not strong is only in the last few years. Yes there are more and more games that purposefully make Rushdown chars the strongest, but it's only really in recent years that this trend is going on, and just like you said SF3 had way back in the late 90's. At the end of the day, it's all about the game and the mechanics, and the characters will get stronger accordingly.

@@RoyArkon I mean I wouldn’t count doom , magneto and sentinel good for their zoning. With doom and sentinel they have amazing assist games. Doom also has great air play and sentinel has a bunch of armor . Magneto will just bash you from the air. They have good zoning but its not what makes them top tier.

@@egekazkayas8968 Magneto and Doom are both well-rounded characters, they both can play Zoning and Rushdown (again, aside from MVC2 as in this game Magneto is indeed not a Zoner) and Sentinel is 100% Zoner, pretty much his entire moveset are projectiles that cover the screen from so many different angles.

You’d love playing as Ness in smash ultimate 👉🔥

Everything is fast in Vampire Savior (well, besides Victor and Anakaris) but I really feel like Fish is a trap character mixed with a rush down (possibly the first "trap" archetype ever?)... his dash is good and he has a lot of offensive tools. It's just that he shines when he gets the opponent in a corner and starts throwing out bubbles to trap them. He's the closest thing to a zoner in this game and really interesting.

R mika is amazing too

@@theworldlywarrior Mika used to be very good yes. But she ate a LOT of nerfs. And she's not that good anymore unfortunately.

@@TheOxiongarden oof, i left at the right time then. She had a great mixture of pokes and grapples.

Some guy started one called archetype archive but it’s not that good imo.

Well all modern games unless made by neverrealm.

He picked frieza, worst example imo , bcs dbzfighters are almost FULL of rushdowns , I think zoners are pretty strong , also because this archetype is famous with being salt-inducing , people can't deal with them when they're not skilled enough 💀

@@yurin4402 "Why're you so bad at video games?"

What does "in a vacuum" even mean in this context? It sounds like you're saying "if you take away everything that isn't a zoner, then zoner is the strongest"

@@fumoffu_l “in a vacuum” referred to game mechanics. I thought that was made clear based on the rest of my comment.

I agree

Season 1 R.Mika would like a word with you

What would be your favourite brawler?

I think this is also called "footsies" archetype as well. Rekka characters usually fit here as well.

@@hoodedstreetmonk352 third strike alex. I know he was low tier, but his move set, aesthetics, and mind game were the most fun I've ever had with a fighter. Psyching out your opponent by swapping between weak, fast grapples and really strong 3 hit strings always made him feel so much more violent than the rest of the cast.

Sounds like Maxima

3S Alex?

That's why they're good in KOF. They are just like everything else but don't block

I think Adult Gohan is a better example of a "level up" character from FighterZ than Gogeta 4 is.

I’m pretty sure they’re called “Snowball” characters as opposed to “level up”

@@rah8693 I was about to come here and say that as well.

Amy from soul calibur is a perfect level up character

I see the same argument for '2D characters' in Tekken 7...

I agree. Besides, holding down back while the opponent's pixie goes crazy on you isn't fun either.

@@GM_Lemmy 100% this weird fgc philosophy that there is one specific honest and fun way to play the game, wether it be rushdown or neutral based shoto (it really just depends on the game) is kind of annoying. It's honestly just majority consensus, people just don't like losing, which makes sense, but that's an individual battle and not one indicative of game design. The majority of a playerbase gravitates towards shoto and rushdown characters, and because of that, their interpretation of what is and isn't fun eventually becomes the accepted one. But in reality, the grappler is having just as little fun when they're holding down back all game, and the zoner isn't enjoying your full screen burst options whenever they try to get their fireball pressure going. People who complain are going to complain, there just happens to be a larger sample size of complainers in the playerbases for more standard archetypes.

@@jackredfield5993 I have to say I have more fun being zoner out as a rushdown character than rushed down as a zoner. I find space control more interesting part of the game than mix ups. Mix ups and combos get glorified as the most important part of fighting games but we are all different

The problem is that "playing around them" basically means playing like a zoner - don't let them get close to you so they can't threaten you with their grab. Which, unless you're playing a zoner already, might not be a play style you enjoy. In which case, makes sense that fighting them would be something you don't enjoy doing, regardless of their power level competitively, no?

Puppet Fighters are weird in meta, as small changes can make them either very strong or very weak. Zappa was not as powerfull in AC untill later revisions added stuff like the sword that he can pressure with fullscreen (including an overhead) and the dog. Zato in Xrd SIGN started out very strong, but by the end of Xrd Rev 2 (the final revision for Xrd), Zato was almost near the bottom, beat by Potemkin. I think what was changed among other stuff was how his drill attack, Invite Hell, worked. DEB went into more detail on her video on Arcsys balance. Allthough, from my research, they're more often really good.

Zoning is puppet. Puppet is zoning.

@@thefrankiepalmeri you’re telling me Zato is a zoner?

puppet is more like 'playstyle' rather than 'archetype'. for example, dhalsim/axl is a zoner with long limbs. launcher is a zoner with projectiles. zato is a zoner with his puppets. whenever the character is able to put pressure while maintaining distance, they are what we call zoners.

@@mohdnazri7126 just wanted to mention that all puppet characters arent zoners, Devo in Jojo Hftf for example is only made more vulnerable when his puppet is out but if you can get your puppet behind the enemy your combos triple in damage output

If it makes you feel better, most of the high level pro Pot players just don't even bother competing in big tournaments because he also has some of the worst matchups in strive lol. Hell even other Pot mains like myself don't like the Pot mirror

@@AstralTaurus I love the Pot mirror for being absolute chaos. I don't think the better Pot wins with any consistency unless the gap is enormous but damn if it ain't always an absolutely silly spectacle. That said, you're dead-on about high level play, and while he was generally in a okay spot for most of season 1 (only Goldlewis proved functionally insurmountable), season 2 seems to have only made Pot even worse while making some of his worst MUs *worse for him.* He now has a bit most silliness in areas he was already doing okay, but Goldlewis got massive buffs for example while Potemkin lost his only reversal (even if it was a pretty bad one), all while they pushed Potemkin even further in terms of execution demands. I was out here throwing karas all over the place already, but now they want me to 236236S, hold for no more than 11 frames, RC, and then 632146K~P just for a half decent reversal to get out of pressure? Is it hilarious when you do it perfectly? Absolutely. Does it put the fear of god in your opponent when you just facetank through their oki and grab them for a Buster instead? Absolutely. Is it also literally 16 inputs in less than a quarter of a second and if you mess up your super timing you die, if you RC too early, you die and it takes your meter, you RC too late and it takes your meter and you fire into the sky at best resetting to neutral but maybe just dying instead, or you mess up your kara or the buster input and you randomly Megafist (50/50 on dying) or whiff the Buster and then definitely die? *Yep.* I feel like giving complex characters complex inputs is fair (Zato) since you just have the logistical issue of cramming all those things onto the controller, but I'm guessing a huge problem with grapplers in most games is just that they, for some reason, often have extremely taxing and unintuitive inputs. Tager in BB for example has 720 inputs on his regular grabs, part of his basic gameplan, and you can either roll those in to your play and do them more or less at will or you aren't allowed to play Tager, to say nothing of having to often understand underlying buffer mechanics so you can work around the limitations (buffering it while landing from a jump, etc) to do these things in the first place which is often extremely unintuitive. To say nothing of his 1080 input Astral Heat. There are a lot of weird old, misguided, design decisions that have stuck with us for way too long.

@@TheVenerableMrKrieg god 360s/720s still scare me so much and i've been playing potemkin for a few years now and can honestly say just mastering the potbuster input took so much time (i'm also stupit).

@@AstralTaurus Good thing potbuster isnt a 360 eh? :)

@@paatwo those were 2 semi related thoughts put awkwardly together i already told you i was stupit ;-; -i find 360s hard -i still mess up the potbuster input on occasssion despite practicing it for a few years -inb4 "git gud"

You described Scorpion, Kung Lao, Johnny Cage and Fujin in MK11

I think Claw from Super Turbo is where this started. Everyone talks about the wall dives (which are busted, don't get me wrong) but to have a character with a fast walk speed and the 2nd longest normals in the game is a DEADLY combo. I honestly think if his wall dive was removed completely he would still be a top tier character. There are some matchups he might not want to go into the air much against, and in those his speed and range makes him amazing at footsies (let alone most of what he can do is safe on block).

I wouldnt really call her a footsie archetype, she's more or less rush down and a mix of a grappler.

I have never heard of a “footsie” archetype lol. I do get what you mean tho, Vanguard in DNF Duel dominates mid screen with his giant normals. Not quite a zoner but definitely not rushdown either.

Sounds like a Karin main’s reasoning

Thats a zoner.... a zoner is someone who wants to keep you in a specific range...full screen zoners are called keep aways.

@@stolensentience facts lol

Do you play on controller or arcade stick? I always like asking what older players use to play fighting games and why

What games do you jam on?

@@markmessi9020 Normally I play with a controller but I found a pre owed Xbox fight stick today for the series. Now I can learn with fighting games on Xbox and arcade. I am very excited for this late stage journey.

@@pleaseshutup7053 the Capcom fighting collection especially darkstalkers got me back playing hard again. I’ve always played fighting games but dropped out quickly. The collection has me installing everything I own again. The other would be Muktiverse and I picked up Melty Blood Type Lyle lumina on a recent sale but I’m still learning that one. Thanks everyone! It’s cool for the hobby to be fun again.

@@djmajesticeclectic I assume this will be more than a hobby for you and I can expect to see you at Evo?

You're more or less describing a traditional zoner. However, some zoners can be played aggressively. Some characters have some zoning tools, but then combine with mixup or rush down options like Ramlethal from GG Strive.

@@Mykulveli traditional zoner tend to pressure you from distance, poking you away which means they have to INITIATE. turtle characters want you to attack them first and REACT to your moves. one example that i can think of is, if you can imagine guile (probably the OG turtle) squatting all the time charging while waiting for you, thats a turtle character.

A pretty under rated example of a turtle is UI Goku from DBFZ. Everyone knows he is good but no one says why. Its because he has all the defensive gimicks that no other character has. He can walk thorugh ki blasts. He can hop through beam attacks. He can insta teleport behind you if you time it with a normal. He can even insta counter specials with a parry. In a game where every character could be considered a rush down nightmare, its refreshing to see this kind of change up in design.

Like Elena from sf4? She was a menace lol

Unorthodox, and surprisingly extremely great comparison

Aren’t all megaman bosses zoners?

@Ben Thompson Not within the context I provided, but I get what you’re saying.

Totally Love the Megaman Analogy. It's how I learned to play fighting games as well (atleast the arcade mode) I treated them as boss fights in Megaman. I got the idea when I realized Magma Dragoon is a Shoto

Dragon Ball FIghterZ has fast grapplers like Android 16 and Broly because everyone in that game is just speedy as hell but it’s compensated by grabs not doing the same amount of damage proportionally in slower fighters like Street Fighter.

I hope you mean DBS Broly.

Likely the devs want to avoid looping grabs and creating a mixup vortex.

@@leithaziz2716 I was about to put that, but then I remembered that’s just rushdown characters, so why is it an issue for grapplers?

@@GohTheGreat There are usually mechanics to make mixups less effective, even if they can still be looped. FD in Guilty Gear pushes the opponent way and mixup attacks usually scale a lot, so they don't do too much damage (unless it's MVC). With Grapplers, they sometimes just make grabs do as much damage as a combo, but give no Oki to make things less "intoxicating".

@@leithaziz2716 right, and in a lot of fighting games a command grab throw loop is a true 50-50 if they don't have an invicible reversal, much more potent than your typical combo reset

@@jackredfield5993 typically there's a few frames if grab invul or, in blazblue's case, they just let u tech the command grab if they do it on blockstun (or a few frames after) and the window for it is way bigger. This probably doesnt apply to old games tho

😂 you ain't lying. Can't stand this no chip kill shit. So many characters would've been badass in SFV if only chip kill for specials were there.

called it 😔

Even grappler players hate grapplers. And themselves usually.

Almost like they break the core systems of the game or something

@@stolensentience depends on the game but in general it's kinda the opposite. Grapplers seem scary at low levels till you play against solid intermediate+ players who know the proper OS to get out of throw set ups. Unless you're talking about DBFZ Broly

@@AstralTaurus I just mean how you aren’t allowed to play up close whatsoever. You just play keep away because all the up close interactions mean nothing. And don’t get me started on the teleporting into their arms nonsense.

@@stolensentience that's not really "game breaking". Actually most grapplers have pretty slow normals and lack defensive options like reversals so it's not so bad. And they kinda need big grab ranges otherwise the grab becomes kinda useless

Dhalsim, Poison, Menat? SFV has a lot of strong zoners. That's a game in the past 20 years.

happy chaos in GGST is an example of a modern top-tier zoner

@@IntermissionVA Yeaahh Zonners are better even if you compare them with grapplers with mobility like Rainbow Mika, Laura in SFV and Clark in KOF

Cetrion?

@@nnnp634 NRS games are bad they dont count

Sorry this comment just makes me laugh, calling grappling in FGs “less fantasy and more realistic” is funny when you got most grapplers like zangief and potemkin throwing you like a ragdoll 500m in the air flipping 7 times and shit, makes no sense comparing it to real life fighting 💀

For new games at least yes

From my experience not necessarily, you can make do with a simple combo, as long as you can perform a basic b&b combo, that can carry you through a match. Not knowing some of those other things could potentially actually hold you back more. Depending on the game of course