How about Senna and Lucian's soul first, talks about completion's sake but doesn't include them.

This was amazing! I would absolutely love if you did the same for Senna and swain, I was thinking about that while watching this. I'm a senna main now but used to main thresh and always adored the potential of every champion with stacking passives!

@@Flavourius A topic I've always wanted to cover, but they're a bit unique of a soul to be included on this one. They get their own dedicated video for sure.

@@CryoBeat Neat :D Then do some numbercrunch definitely on Swain next because Senna is cringe.

Think the math for Senna is 35g per soul, but not super clear because the lifesteal and range portions are a little item dependent.

hol up

10% is the op

“Ed…ward… big brother…”

@@unsemplicetriangoloHELL NAH💀💀💀💀💀

​@@unsemplicetriangolotoo dark, bro

thats one ADC's auto attack. YOure supposed to support not DPS

@@karole7345 Do you think that support thresh will go rabadon/void staff? Cryo played ap thresh mid, as a burst mage, not support. Though damage is still useful on support, as adcs lack damage early game, they are late game champions after all.

actual reason i play AP Rakan Support (and mid)@@jhinthevirjhin9339

@@karole7345 his base kit does that already no items will increase his stun time so getting a bit of extra dmg can work if the enemies are squishies

Thanks for the tip, I always think about Yasuo's R ignoring total armor.

Thts unfair because thresh doesnt have any base gain armor and relys on souls from my understanding.

@@Cherry-pu4mx it's a give and take. you get bonus armor synergies and can affect your armor growth with gameplay. other people can also utilize this

Yeah, do you remember the Season, where Last Whisper penetrated just Bonus Armor. Making any Tank even more tanky, except Thresh?. I hated that so much. I think they just forgot Thresh, when they made this choice back then.

@@AlryFireBlade lol yas ult penetrates bonus armor. So feel tht pain still when up against a yas.

Senna, is somewhat like thresh, as she doesnt get ad per lvl,so she still gets weaker if she doesnt collect souls

@@psychokuca302 yeah but senna gets attack range and crit chance and senna already starts the game with very high attack range which just makes her kiting game even stronger plus marginally more damage from crit which is the real benefit.

@@Shadow-bk1im Her crit dmg as far as i remember is nerfed, and yes,she has a good range,but,she also hsa a wind up on her aa,which,when you try to kite, is really,and i mean really, limits your kiting, even with slow on q. Does she get strong,at what she supposed to do when has enough souls? Yes. Does tresh get strong,at what he supposed to do? Yes.

@@psychokuca302 I make the comparison because less AD per lvl means you deal marginally less damage. Less armor though, you become fragile to the point you can't properly fulfill your role, in Thresh's example. In ane case, you make a good point. a Senna without proper stacks is as good as useless. I think a better illustration would be a bell curve. Senna fluctuates more between the extremes of useless or busted, while Thresh is tamer, living mostly in the middle ground, and unable to reach Senna's peaks.

@@patrickbastos1267 This is a good point about their differences. And this difference comes from their role and their abilities. Even if they are both sups,thresh still will be useful with his lockdown,and as a sup, his stacks doesn’t provide *that* much value, as for senna, even if she is a sub, she is a damage dealing sup, where every stack,maybe less valuable in gold(now,I actually got curious about that,Cryo Senna stacks video pls), but they may be more valuable in overall image, where 20 more or 20 less armor for thresh might be not a big difference,cuz of how armor scaling works in league, but 20 souls for senna makes huge difference, cuz 20 range,20(I believe?) ad and 10 crit is a lot,for a dmg dealer

I have same thing with few other champions. Like cait getting headshots faster in bushes

@@dynias7282 Wait isnt that in her Passiv Description?

​@@holschermarcit is. Tho could be mssed if you've never played her

@@holschermarc i have a thing to not read description of abilities and passives, and trying to understand them in practise

@@dynias7282 Fair point

wrong, gold value for base stats is absolute. although they make a larger difference earlier on in the game because of the % diff in stats you have when compared to late game with full items but the gold value is still the same.

There are like a million other factors to consider here. I think many thresh players would gladly give up a soul for 50g for example, because it allows them to get to their item spikes faster. The worth of each individual piece of gold changes every second depending on what other players are doing, the game state, your items, etc. It's also good to keep in mind that souls have the advantage of being effective immediately. Having 3000g in your inventory in a fight won't do you any good. Granted, that is an extreme example, but the same goes for say 750g which is very common at basiclly any point of the game. It's like a mini Ornn passive in that regard.

PSO and PSO2 will never leave me.

So zero

go to 6:25 this was taken into account

Same 😅

also means there's some p. solid value in dipping into the forbidden idol pool as an otherwise full tank, because the 15% heal and shield power from a redemption turns that cool 250 shield into an even cooler 287 shield, not to mention how it effectively increases the value of all future souls. something worth considering even as a solo lane thresh, as keeping a fed carry or two alive is a valid wincon for every member of the team

I think "addict" is a good word to describe it.

3 souls > 1 his soul

would make more sense to derive its value from a consumable healing item imo

At a glance sure it might feel like that, but the argument is how much gold value a Thresh soul is worth. Thresh may have to jump through an extra hoop, but no soul = no armor so the two are inseperable. The premise is how much a single point into a stat is worth in gold, not how valuable the stat is compared to the rest of the roster.

@@stormsliva while the premise of the video is deriving the value of a thresh soul, that information can only be appreciated in full when put in the scope of a game state. I think its entirely fair to argue that you only start "counting" the gold lead souls give you with respect to armor after you break even with the base armor value of your equivalent on the enemy team. Prior to that point, you are merely making up for the gold value in stats that opponents gain through exp. I think it would be very reasonable to argue that Thresh souls have two different values, one for pre and another for post 100 stacks. You could soften that number up if you were playing in an Auto-Attack Carry position, but you can see what i am getting at.

​@@SephK13 But the video has nothing to do with a gold lead. It's gold efficiency; an agreed upon value with a set definition. Moreso, the video is here to answer the age-old question of what the worth of a soul is in a cute way that ties to a video game mechanic. If anything it would be represented by an estimated equation, not selecting some arbitrary level & number of souls. The contextual value of that armor is so muddied when trying to compare it to his competitors because there are closer to 200 other champions in the game.

He plays ap thresh, not support thresh

Even in an on-hit build, the 100 AP will impact your ability damage so that's a plus, however, you're right that other than that, it does far less damage than most other on-hit effects. Wit's End gives useful magic resist, BOTRK gives anti-tank and lifesteal, Rageblade gives hybrid penetration, etc. Nashor's does provide ability haste and the only reason to take it is to do AP shenanigans. As a last item, defensive stuff will likely be more useful so you can DPS for longer in my opinion, but 50% attack speed on Nashor's isn't bad either.

@@CryoBeat thank you for the answer. I would also like to ask if nashors would be a good item against squishy targets in a gamemode like arena or nexus blitz where you mainly/might only see ADC’s or bruisers(?) like yas/yone. And if getting it over more resistances (hp/armour) is worth it because of the boosted souls.

@@CryoBeat what about kraken, the ap scaling on thresh could be juicy

That's not actually true, the way armor scaling works means that 1 armor always effectively increases your health by 1% against physical damage. A lot of people think it's diminishing returns because the % damage reduction does get smaller, but take into account the fact that % damage reduction is stronger the more you have (going from 0% to 10% is a small change, but 80% to 90% is halving the damage you receive).

​@@geli95us I feel like he might have meant that 2000hp with 250 armour (7000 effective health against AD), you'd be better off buying 2 ruby crystals for 800 gold and increasing your stats to 2300hp and 250 armour (8050 effective HP against AD) instead of buying 40 armour with chain vest with 800 gold to have 2000hp with 290 armour (7800 effective HP against AD). Not to mention the fact that your effective health against magic damage increases with the health increase, not just being more cost effective against AD. Not to mention giant's belt for 900g and 350hp (8225 effective HP against AD), being more gold efficient than ruby crystals. At some point you do get diminishing returns when you keep buying resistances, and neglecting health. 1 point of resistances gives 1% effective health against that damage type. You can think of 250 armour as having 3.5x health against AD. 2000 hp with 500 armour (12k HP vs AD) is the same effective HP against AD as 3000 hp and 300 armour, but 3000 hp makes you 50% tankier against magic damage. With rubies, 2.6g per HP: 2.6k gold for 1000hp, but needing 200 less armour, cloth is 20g per armour, which is 4000 gold for 200 armour. Same effective HP against AD for 1.4k cheaper, and you're 50% tankier against magic damage. There are diminishing returns, as resistances are a "health multiplier", it requires you to have enough health to multiply for it to make sense. It's a balancing act between what damage your enemies can dish out, and how consistently. Similarly, the math changes when you account for healing, as more resistances do not reduce amount healed, as long as it's not % health based (on your champion). Teammate healing you for 500 hp? You're better off with more resistances than HP, as you'd heal 3000 effective HP vs AD with 500 armour, compared to 2000 HP vs AD with 300 armour. It's why your healers should focus on the frontline, unless it is to save your damage dealers. Keeping damage dealers close to 100%+ hp is useless when you allow your frontline to die, who can use your heals with several times the efficiency.

@@sudenluola2241 Yes, but the same thing applies to health, health and resistances are multiplicative, which means that you want to have a specific ratio to get the most value out of them, that doesn't mean that they have "diminishing returns", and no one in their sane mind would say that health has diminishing returns. (Again, this math applies to a lot of things in the game, ad and as for example, they are more effective when bought together, that doesn't mean they have "diminishing returns" either)

@@geli95us huh. thought it was originally like that, but then they added in the % reduction stuff and thought they fiddled with it like ability haste/cooldown %. thanks for the enlightenment friend

@@clreyawesome3527 strictly speaking, ability haste works in the exact same manner. 1 ability haste means you get 1% more casts in the same span of time, and 100 ability haste means you get 100% more casts in the same span of time*. an arrangement you might recognize from how attack speed works, as it's literally the exact same math. really, the change from cooldown reduction to ability haste was a way to make a core stat work like all the rest, changing it from a stat that subtly scaled multiplicatively with itself to one that scales linearly ( *it is technically more complicated than this, since unlike attacks, abilities don't factor their cast time into their cooldowns nor does ability haste have any effect on cast times. so aside from the sole exception of abilities that cast instantly, there's a constant delay between each ability cast that would remain even at 100% cdr. this doesn't really matter much outside of extreme cases, since the vast majority of abilities have a cast time of 0.25s, but it _is_ a fundamental detail worth noting )

Also means thresh can build hp and get his armor from souls. I dont play him preferring nautilus and alistar consistent stuns but makes me wonder if it would be good to pick him up. Most people dont know how to take lanterns anyway

@@ethosterros9430 Most of the time I end up using lanterns to catch distant souls or throw it for the shield mid-combat anyways.

That is true and a bit of an oversight since Thresh did get his health/level buffed back when armor was reworked for everyone (Thresh had 12 armor at one point, then had 16 for a long time his base armor was buffed closer to the 28 it is now when Runes were reworked in Season 8 or so. Since everyone else also got Armor/level buffs iirc, Thresh got health/level buffs instead). That said Health and Armor aren't completely interchangeable, but still would've been a good thing to add for sure, even if the video would get a bit longer.

Maybe, I feel like Senna having an additional way to get them by 2-tapping people lets her get them really fast if she tries, so that would help Thresh a lot of course. That said, the way the RNG works, similar to crit, is that the chance of a soul dropping will increase every time a soul doesn't drop, and vice versa, with every soul that drops, the next death will have a lower chance, balancing it out on average. That was something I remember reading about a lot back in the day, but looking around these days I just see "33% chance to drop souls". I don't think it was changed, but maybe it was.

@@CryoBeat that's an implementation of rng common to a lot of games with frequent proc effects but _especially_ mobas due to their competitive nature, and league is no different. granted, it's easy to miss because league has very few random procs, but it _does_ have a major universal one in critical strikes and, yep, the true chance of your attacking critting is modified based on how many of your previous attacks were crits. thing is, your displayed crit chance is still effectively accurate, as a 25% chance to crit still means that you can expect around 25 crits in a sequence of 100 attacks. this is because the ( properly implemented ) algorithms used for this effect take the desired chance and calculate the derived values so that the average proc rate remains the same, while still reducing the standard deviation - effectively meaning the proc is more often "on schedule" thresh souls are an interesting case, though, as the "schedule" of its procs can be charted in two noticeably different ways. there's the obvious one where, like crit, the chance is modified after every roll to push the chances towards dropping a soul every third minion that dies around thresh, but there's an interesting niggle to that: while you can't reasonably predict how many attacks a champ will pull off by a certain minute mark, the number of minions they should encounter is really simple. it's 6 every half minute ( per lane, but there's an obvious logistical issue with soaking minions from multiple lanes at once ), with an extra siege minion every minute and a half until minute 15 that always drops a soul, so at that minute 15 mark, you can expect a champion to encounter 190 minions, 10 of which are siege. so that's 10 guaranteed souls, plus one for every third minion out of the 180 others for 60 souls, totaling up to an expected average of 70 souls for 4.67 souls per minute prior to siege minions spawning more frequently. well, the actual expected average is a bit lower without really affecting the souls per minute, since you can't exactly expect thresh to catch the minions as they spawn at minute 5 ( albeit that _would_ deal with that aforementioned logistical issue ) either way, this still means you can look at the game timer and go, hey, thresh should really have x souls by now according to this simple formula, and that's a perfect case for implementing that expectation _programmatically._ so it's possible that the chance doesn't directly modulate every time a minion dies around thresh, but instead it compares his current souls ( whether it be souls from minions, from minions and monsters, from random drops, or just his total souls altogether ) to a calculated projection of how many souls he _should_ have by the current game time, and modifies the chance according. or it could use both, since they're not exactly mutually exclusive. if i had to go off my gut and what i know about riot's design ethos, i'd definitely guess that the projected value method is used, as it lets thresh roam, lose lane, and miss outright souls while still "banking" the opportunity to collect the souls lost by not being around minions. that lets him be a _lot_ more consistent than he would be otherwise, and also prevents him from being punished solely for engaging in the very important support job of leaving the lane it also matches up p. well with what i've seen and played of thresh, as it always seems like a _lot_ more waves that drop three or four random souls after making a comeback from a bad early game. 'course, whether that's actually the case is something i figure you have a much better idea of, for obvious reasons. it's something that should be easy to have an intuitive grasp of solely from enough experience, since the standard of two random souls per wave makes it real simple to notice when you're suddenly getting a lot more or less