Nice!

would you ever consider a video on the way that time signatures are used in math rock/mathcore?

Is SHA IN 6/8 or 3/4? Why I can see myself swinging like a pendulum to it or waltzing...

@Aaron Bernards Subterranean Homesick Alien is actually in 12/8 because it has four triplets in each measure. For example in the chorus, the word “uptight” comes in on the eighth beat. “Up” is a quarter note (2 eighths) and “tight” is a dotted-quarter note (3 eighths), so the word is sung over beats 8 to 12. 6/8 time follows a similar formula but the measure is (obviously) half as long, and songs in 6/8 generally have a faster tempo than songs in 12/8. Generally speaking, but not always.

@@russellszabadosaka5-pindin849 12/8 and 6/8 are largely interchangeable (as mentioned in this video). But I do think that the best choice of meter for Subterranean Homesick is 6/8, and you will find most transcriptions use 6/8.

Good analogy!

Por que no los dos?

If it's both at once, is it swaltzbuckling?

I agree! 6/8 always makes me think of pirates, maybe because of the song The Captain by Biffy Clyro

@@timmccarthy872 je suis études français maintenant. Je ne comprends le msg. Je suis très mauvais à français 😂😂😆😆🤣😅😅. Que tu dis dans ton message

Yes, that really helped me a lot as well.

Yep, right there.

I fourth that! I wish to god my sense of rhythm was as developed as my understanding of melody and harmony. Not to say I'm some kind of hamonic/melodic expert, but I at least *get* it. The rhythm thing's a real deficit with me, which has held me back for almost two decades. But that little mental comparison made me understand the concept instantly and I got all ten of his little training examples right. I say that not to brag, because it wasn't my doing, it was Mr. David's. I always enjoy these videos, but this was an eye opener.

Whether I want rock my finger to the bar or tap my finger to the bar

Same

🤣😂🤣

I have played in my high school marching band for 3 years and I think the reason we use different time signatures is sometimes different time signatures help to stay in time. Sometimes you might have a quarter note and a eighth note tied together so when the conductor is in 6/8 we can tell when to switch to the next note easier when he makes one swing instead of in 3/4 where we would have to wait a swing and a half. 6/8 would tell us exactly when we have to start the next note and it makes it easier.

All I understand is when the tempo is slow it is 6/8 and when its fast it is 3/4 hahaha correct me if im wrong

​@@jeremypielago9383it's mainly the way you count beats. In 3/4 you count the beats as 1 2 3, and in 6/8 you count 123 123.

​@@jeremypielago9383 well: a 3/4 time signature is counted as 3 x 2 crotchets, each "accent" or "strong beat" falling only on beat 1 and then fading out.... while 6/8 has an "accent" or "strong beat" on both the 1st and second beat (first set of three quavers, then the second set of three quavers). This wouldn't work with a 3/4 time signature.

Although 3/8 time is apparently the correct time signature for waltz... The real question is "what's the difference between 3/4 and 3/8?"...

swing the walts

I chose 3/4 for my piece, even noticed another piece that sounds kind of like mine is written in 3/4, it seemed to work, though it doesn't look right, I was wondering if it was 6/8, haven't seen this video yet, but this will be interesting. Hmm there seems to be 6 1/8 notes, though the way I structured the piece, it doesn't sound like a waltz, it sounds much more detailed and complex, I use a lot of 1/32, 1/16, dotted 1/8, 1/8, and triplets in my piece, hmm, I I guess I could figure this out by a metronome or a simple drum sample to see, though most of my work is so complex.

@@emily-clairedonaghue3133 the second number

@@emily-clairedonaghue3133What song have you seen scored in 3/8?

As a drummer, I came here to say this. Listen for where your drummer is putting downbeats and backbeats.

Yep!

The drums maybe, but the bassline most assuredly in pop, rock and other radio music, and not at all in classical, or symphonic (generally). A competent bassplayer will, by the feel he gives it (what beats he stresses) outline the groove for the drummer, who may choose the same pocket, or play inside or outside, depending...

Oh yeah you think so

Yeah. For me, on 3/4 vs. 6/8, if a drummer is emphasizing the one, the three and the five, (ONE-two-THREE-four-FIVE-six), it's more waltz (3/4) feel, whereas if the emphasis is on the one and the four, (ONE-two-three-FOUR-five six), it's more "oldie" (6/8) (e.g., Elvis, "Can't Help Falling In Love.")

same for me with My Favorite Things, and also Delila. But as told in the video, a quick 3/4 can sound as a 6/8, so I guess that's why

Agreed. My Favorite Things is often used as a 6/8 waltz for ice dancing competitions.

Agree about "My Favorite Things". For me it might be because I have listened a lot to John Coltrane's Favorite Things, which is definitely in 6/8.

@@AreGulbrandsen Interesting, I've always thought of the John Coltrane version as 3/4 primarily because it's slower than the Sound of Music version, which clearly sounds 6/8 to me.

The biggest giveaway for 3/4 and 6/8 is that there is a middle note in the pulse of the BPM for 3/4. A lot of the examples provided aren't great as many of the 3/4 songs didn't have any middle note (eighth note) in the pulse except for Binky by Snarky Puppy. I'd also argue that My Favorite Things is definitely 6/8.

Thank you!

Well, triplets are actually a different thing. In terms of the feel, 6/8 feels like 2/4 with 8th note triplets. Or 9/8 could also be written as 3/4 with triplets. Technically however, 6/8 is 6 beats, not 2. The 6 beats are divided into 2 pulses. Compositionally, it's much simpler to notate in 6/8 rather than to write constant triplet or sextuplet notation in 2/4. 6/8 or 9/8 are also less flexible than 2/4 or 3/4 in terms of rhythmic interpretation and feel. Although I guess that's more of a standard practice thing than a technical difference.

I was always taught to feel 6/8 in two. And that’s a great way to distinguish it by ear, bc 3/4 is often very hard to feel in 2

Depends, I sometimes think of it as three groups of 2 Idk if that’s accurate tho lmao

When I learned about fractions as a child, I wondered why there were two different time signatures because reducing the fraction 6/8 to lowest terms gives you the fraction 3/4. Eventually I realized the difference.

If it feels like an Irish song when strummed on a guitar, it is 6/8

More like of course there's a Radiohead song in this video and it's focused on quite substantially

Yeah those two

@@kjl3080 oh hi i watch ur vids

and Radiohead

@@GoviaM nice

Thank you!!!

That’s one way,however what is most important is where the kick drum falls, because where the “one” is more important than the backbeat which is usually on the 2nd beat.Some Waltzes the snare is on the one, and some are not.... Metallica “One” is an example of 3/4 where the snare is not on the one.(during the verses).

​@@isaiahneilguitaristofficia549 I'd say if there _is_ a snare backbeat, then it's 6/8 (or 12/8). Classic waltz beat to me is kick-snare-snare, and I would say it doesn't have a backbeat at all. Also, do you happen to have some examples of waltzes with (non-brush) snare on 1? Funkier genres may push or omit the kick on the 1, though I actually can't think of an example in 6/8... (Also, I love _One,_ but Lars Ulrich is known to do weird things - which sometimes works amazing, sometimes not so much... :D)

Well what if the drummer just plays in 16th notes in 3/4? Sounds exactly the same is 8ths in 6/8.

@@von_freiesleben64 because this mode of simple/compound analysis is bullshit and muddled by 150 years of modern jazz music and the thousands of genres spawned therein. Seriously, using 17th century analysis in modern era is occasionally as useless and prescriptive as it gets.

@@BradsGonnaPlay ok so in reality there is no fucking difference and this video was pointless?

Soldier’s Poem by Muse, Cantique de Jean Racine by Fauré, Norman Fucking Rockwell by Lana Del Rey, Oh! Darling, by The Beatles, to name a few :)

Not piano, but it's in 6/8 and has an arpeggio on clean guitar. Listen to Hollow by Pantera.

I’m guessing this is probably where it came from but Hallelujah by Leonard Cohen

@@singerofsongs468 dude soldiers poem was literally the first song that came into my head and I'm not even a big muse fan

@@Kat-nd5fq Man of culture.

Wow!

I’ve always found heartbeat of all things to be in 6/8 “Lub dub . Lub dub .”

West Side Story’s “America” alternates between the two so it’s a great illustration 6/8: *I* like to *be* in A- 4/3: *me-ri-ca*

Now, I totally learned the difference between the 2 time signatures upon reading your comment.

@@williamreid6255 well my heart beat is in 1/2

ah i understand now, thats so simple way to explain it, so, a 3/4 is 3 beats while 6/8 are only 2 beats in he exact same time, well their names are very misleading

Exactly, the relationship between all parts of the music can determine the time signature at that point in the music.

Good for you. I'm just as confused as ever.

Fr, my past band director used to just say “6 beats per measure 8th note gets the beat”; that literally made things even more confusing for me cuz I was trying to put simple time into compound (which I had no idea existed until this video)

@@PurpleHat__Real that's exactly what he said, like on 0:39 (ur director). he just didn't explain it.

@@trevorcorso473 the clearest explanation I had was years ago from my drum teacher. I no longer recall his exact words but my understanding at the time was as follows: The time signature isn’t a ‘fraction’ (this misunderstanding is the only reason 3/4 & 6/8 have been probably compared in this video). The top number is the only one that really matters in terms of the music and describes the beats in the bar, or what you count. The bottom number is what symbol is used for 1 beat. In theory it could be an ‘x’ or a picture of a banana, it doesn’t really make a difference to what’s played, only how you write it. 3/4 would sound the same as 3/8 you just use 1/8 note symbols for each beat. So why does 6/8 have two beats!? Well, in my view it should be referred to as 2/4 time, two beats to a bar. But from experience/familiarity musicians would know that 6/8 music has a ‘triplet feel’. Rather than counting for two bars: 1 2 1 2. Or 1 + 2 + 1 + 2 +. You count 1 & a 2 & a 1 & a 2 & a. So really the 6/8 is just half a bar of 4/4 time and played as triplets (12/8 is a full 4/4 bar played as triplets: 1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4 & a). A drummer for 6/8 time would typically play bass drum on 1 and the snare drum on 2 (or 4 if you’re counting to 6), but 3 times on the high hat for each of the two beats to give it the triplet feel. “boom tsh tsh bap tsh tsh” I’ve possibly confused things! but I tried 😀

@@ianmccarthy894 "possibly confused" ? thanks for rying

hi jay

AYYYY JAY FOREMAN

I hear both as 6/8. Although it’s certainly clearer on the full band version thanks to the placement of the snare drum 😃😃

@@DavidBennettPiano i am inclined to agree, although i have yet to post a video on music, but its coming...also "Perfect Day", i've always heard as 12/8.

What is this, a crossover episode?

beach boys + 6/8 time signature is best

My favorite time signature? 6/9. Nice. I'll see myself out, just let me get my coat, where did I hang it. Oh wait, I'm still wearing it...

6/8 = EPIC!!

Yes! Irish music! If it feels like a jig I think 6/8. I had trouble with 9/8 until I realized it was just another way of doing 3/4. As in ' Jesu joy of Man's Desiring

Yep! Being a trad player, I didn't know what 9/8 was called in a jazz context. But even though a jazz waltz and a slip jig are both in 9/8, the jazz waltz rhythm wouldn't work on a slip jig, or at minimum it would get you thrown out of a session, especially if you are on bodhran. ;)

Oh yeah! The only examples I’ve run across are Bach’ classic _Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring_ and _The Night We Met_ by Lord Huron (although the time signature does change a lot to fit the beat, if that makes sense)

@@mwdiers ironic that although 9/8 known as jazz waltz, it’s largely only written as such in Classical music - plenty of it in Bach and other Baroque composers ;-)

6/8 is duple time. 9/8 is triple time. 12/8 is a quadruple time.

Thank you! That is great to hear! 😀

If you can waltz to it it’s most likely in 3/4. If you can sway it’s more likely to 6/8

But this video looks like lie and fiction. So me too want to know really difference.

Listening to _Dig a Pony_ for the first time (cool song!), I'd say it's clearly 6/8 with swung 16ths (with halved bars of 3/8 thrown in). The intro also fits 3/4 with swung 8ths, but that doesn't work with the drum backbeat that starts with the verse. (A recurring snare on the 1 of every second 3/4 bar doesn't really make sense. - cf. the _Fallin'_ example 8:00)

I was linstening Dig a Pony all this week and I think that time signature give a lot of "groove" to the song, its amazing

@@nibblrrr7124 I would disagree. I think the argument can be made for either but it feels way more 3/4 to me and if I was writing a sheet for it it would make more sense to me to write it in 3.

To me it sounds like 3/4 divided into triplets

​@@rileymerino6340 Huh. I generally prefer writing swung 8ths over 16ths. But once the verse starts, at least the drummer would be confused by playing the snare on the 1 of every second bar. Also, I'd want to make the weird number of beats clear in the form of time signature changes, instead of notating everything in 3.

Thanks! I’m glad it worked!

Or, like in 7 Rings, it could’ve been in 2/4 using triplets (and yeah Ik 7 Rings is in 4/4 aka common time)

My thoughts exactly, I guessed them all right except these two, but I would say, like he mentions, that you can consider both time signatures for these songs (fast 3/4 or slow 6/8)

Yes! Delilah was the one I got "wrong." It was the alternating bass that made the pair of 3/4 measures sound like a single 6/8 measure at that speed. It also seemed to have kind of a "jig" 6/8 feel. Though, I admit it would be easier to waltz to Delilah than jig to it. :)

I think it's a lot more subjective than this video presents it. For example a couple of the examples he had as 3/4 had something that could have been interpreted as two strong beats for each triplet group as you said. Even Dylan's "Times They are a Changin'" has a different strum at the beginning of each set of three. But since all three strums are roughly the same in terms of how loud they are, it makes sense to point to 3/4. When I teach this as part of basic theory my goal is to get students to think about accents, emphasis and strong vs weak beats, but I also point to how subjective this can be when the difference between strong and weak beats is subtle.

That’s inhumane

😂

He could have used Billy Joel for 3/4 and Journey for 6/8 instead of the Beatles and Radiohead... Or the Eagles except The Eagles would just block the video, so never mind.😂

But I come here for Beatles. :´(

@@lakrids-pibe a good amount of the places i go are for the Beatles.

😃

Same

Same here, I couldn't really tell any difference before watching, and I got most time signatures correct. I wish I could recognise intervals with the same ease.

@@DavidBennettPiano ty for being such a good teacher

DBP is great at this kind of thing!

Thank you! I will do!

I agree! Especially clarifying that 6/8 can often feel like 2 beats. That helped a lot.

Good analogy! 😁

Same. I just count whichever way feels most intuitive

Thank you. I was reading the comments and thought about about the back beat in so many of the great soul ballads that are in 12/8 or 6/8. Back Beat be a great thing for David to explain.

Totally. I can feel it in Meshuggah's The Demon's Name is Surveillance, which I believe is in 12/8. Great stuff!

You’d be feeling a polyrhythm of the 8th subdivision against the 3/8 per pulse subdivision - which is cool to use 😎

Thanks! That means a lot 😃😃😃

I've always feel something different in that rhythm but idk why I thought that folklore music was all in 4/4, stupid me I guess

Interesting! Would you be able to provide a link to a KZfaq video example? Edit: Or just names of popular songs in this genre are fine, then I can search for them.

@@halflanding1900 lemme check if I find good examples.

If thats what i think it is its called “emiola”, right? Mexican music has that a lot, too. You can hear it in sones, marichi and huapangos

@@albertojurado575 its “hemiola”, but yes! if 6/8 and 3/4 are played at the same time, its a vertical hemiola or 3:2 polyrhythm.

Thank you 😃😃

Thanks! I’m glad it helped 😃😃

Thank you!

I'm actually planning that topic! Good suggestion!

@@DavidBennettPiano And could you also add 2/2 to that one? I'd also like you to touch upon a wider variety of genres for this if you can, e.g. marches, reggae, samba, polka, bluegrass. I never had trouble with 3/4 vs 6/8, but 2/4 and 2/2 confuse me, especially since a lot of those songs get transcribed into 4/4 anyway.

Cut time is quite misunderstood. If you see a common time symbol with a line through it it essentially means 2/2 not 4/4. It's just where the emphasis lies.

@@marktyler3381 Oh I know about cut time I said 2/4. Since 2/4 and 4/4 have essentially the same emphasis.

@@ooogamerxooo792 Sure, I agree - but I wonder if cut time and 2/4 have more in common.

Any punches thrown?

@@kevinskogg2179 one pencil was launched at me. It hit me in the face

@@honeybee1256 OK, that counts.

Same in my choir class lol. My chorus teacher was extremely adamant towards my friend who was insisting that they were the same thing. I mean, I can't really blame the teacher.

It’s a common point of confusion! I’m glad the video was helpful 😃😃

Afro beat should be understood as polyrhythmic.

Not familiar so much with afro cuban rhythms, but I learn and play quite a lot of west african traditional rhythms. Some of them can be particulary tricky when trying to be put in western rhythmical theory and notation. They are sometimes played with heavy "push pull" feeling. Meaning, when played the triplets are squized towards the straight eight note phrazing, the oposite goes with eight and sixteen notes which can be heavily pulled or swung so they almost sound like triplets... While majority of their rhythms fit in general 4/4 or 12/8 time signature, some of them are so much "push pulled" that it is hard to decide which of this two time signatures they would actually fit in when being writen...🤯

So happy other drummers have this problem too :)