When defending yourself in a telephonebooth against a swarm of angry bees a spear is not optimal.

The collar on the jacket really brings together the whole "Biker Nosferatu" look

Me: *enjoying Matt talking about when spears are not optimal* The Comments: *Matt's leather jacket*

He looks like a vampire.

As interesting as this topic is, I couldn't help but notice how well that jacket suits you

That leather jacket says “I know Mad Max is set in 2021”.

I really like his authentic, leather armor... have seen that many times in films; though I am surprised that he bought one with a zipper as that seems anachronistic... ;-)

There is a posture in Jacob de Gheyn's Pike & Shot manual of 1610 called "Trail Your Pike", (which you can go to after you've "Cheeked" the pike (drawing it backwards behind you until your hands reach the cheeks/langets), where you grab the head of the pike and press it to your (right) hip; it's used when your pike block is marching through "broken country". Of course, the problem is now you're dragging 16 feet of ash behind you with 79 other pikemen, so your intervals are quite spread out (but since when is it so necessary to have your formation in "close" spacing while in the middle of a thicket....), it implies the posture is useful for travel and just movement of troops, it is not intended to be used 'in combat'.... Great points (no pun) about why it's not really a great idea to push your spear/polearm troops through a forest/woods, and, thanks for mentioning the difference between a "managed" forest and a "wild" forest, I think we Moderns sometimes forget this, we're so used to reading about the "epic battles" fought on well-mowed and maintained farmer's fields....

1:45 SG: There was almost a... Me: An arms race? SG: ...a developmental contest Me: ...that took me to interesting places...

This made me remember the old Lidybeige video about forests in medieval and ancient times. And would you know, it popped up in the suggestions! Recommend watching that!

The difference between forests types here really isn't managed/unmanaged. It's a matter of how long it's gone since the last "disturbance" (any event that takes away a bunch of the canopy, such as an especially bad fire or rare storm, a timber harvest, an especially bad wave of tree disease or insects, or people girdling a bunch of the bigger trees). Soon after a disturbance is when the ground cover is the densest and most annoying. Even without trying to take a spear with you, you can often find yourself crawling or climbing under or over obstacles instead of walking, and even then you still snag your clothes on twigs & thorns from all directions and collect a bunch of small cuts. (When I was a professional forester, one of my first jobs was collecting research data in sites with different recent management histories for comparison. The several-year-old clearcut sites were the "youngest" sites on my list, and the worst.) The ones that have gone the longest since a disturbance are the easiest to walk through, and the easiest to bring other large objects through. Each new disturbance restarts the clock on the "succession" process. Succession is land's development from bare to thoroughly canopied forest over several decades, if it isn't disturbed again along the way. If it does experience another disturbance, the succession clock resets & restarts. Because disturbances can happen naturally or by human actions, both managed and unmanaged forests can be of any age on the succession clock.

Living in a remote region of Canada and having spent an extensive amount of time in densely forested areas I can't even imagine trying to go through those with a pole weapon.

"when spears are NOT the best old weapons" *spends the first 3 minutes explaining why they ARE the best old weapons*

My experience in Canada is that most old growth wild woods have a relatively narrow band (20 meters at most) of heavy brush near the edge where sunlight can reach and support smaller bushes and younger trees. Once you get into the full canopy forest there might not even be grass let alone brush and there can be gaps of several meters with nothing but tree roots and moss because the larger trees are keeping any light from reaching the ground. In areas were old growth isn't possible, mainly the prairie provinces and in the tundra areas of the Canadian Shield, where the conditions are too dry or the soil too thin over the bedrock to support the root systems for large trees you can get tangles that would make a European hedge row look sparse by comparison and can run for several kilometers. I'd be interested in hearing what people with experience with the proverbial triple canopy forest in more tropical areas have to say on the subject.

Matt's out here looking like my Cyberpunk 2077 character with that jacket

"Woods" is a very broad term. As I've seen others in the comments mention this can vary from wide open high quality timber woods to almost impenetrable coppiced woodlots. I think while your point is valid and valuable we must be careful to assess each "woods" individually :)

It is worth pointing out Matt that likely even more woodland would have been managed in the medieval period since the woods were extensions of the farmland. At least in some areas.

To quote Daffy Duck; "it's a quarter staff... actually it is a buck and a quarter staff, but I am not telling him that"

Stephen: "Your choice of weapon, sir. Pistol? Or sword?" Hugh: "Um... I suppose I'll pick the sword." Stephen: "Very well, then I shall get the pistol."

I really appreciate the way Matt presents these topics: even-handed, well-referenced, interesting, easy-to-understand.

I too find it troublesome to penetrate tight spaces with a longer weapon.

Interesting fact is that important emphasis on archery in Classical and Hellenistic Crete. Kretan archers were deployed for wars over mediterranean as mercenaries. Plato in his accounts mentiones mounted archers which we do not see on depictions except those few in scythian armour.

I want to point out that the undergrowth would be much thinner since the locals would use it for grazing goats, sheep and pigs, something that really isn't happening in the modern forest. Not contradicting anything being said here, just adding on.

"George, there's that weird man with the stick in the woods again."

"Developmental contest" between cavalry and spears eh? Maybe even a "race of arms" or something?

I'm really trying to recall and search for depictions or images of our natives´s spears here in Brasil and it seems almost none of them could be called the long tipe. Except some of the southern ones from our pampas, or "savannas". It matches with your discution, since the tupi-guarani and other great groups lived in tropical and equatorial forests. Altough it could be also due to the focus on individual valour in the tribal warfare here, since usually longer spears are more effective in greater disciplined formations. Nonethless is an interesting topic to think about here. A hug from Brasil!

4:45 "Welcome to the Jungle" blares through the speakers

I thought this was going to be a flame war with Lindybeige Lloyd "Spears are better then swords."

In the leather jacket you just need some shades on and you could be the English Terminator. A spear wielding Terminator. "The Eastonator." Travelling back in time to save medieval manuscripts throughout europe from another terminator that was sent by Skynet to destroy them. Thus, saving and preserving context of medieval weapon use for future generations to come.

there is usually an "ideal" barrel length for any firearm where the ballistics of the cartridge are sufficient to have the desired effect without inconveniencing the end user. before I got into firearms, I used to think that a longer barrel was always better, but now that I own some I tend to gravitate towards shorter barrels. this seems to be the case for specialised troops across the world's militaries as well, where special forces' carbines have gotten shorter in the past ~20 years.

Try walking with your hand on the stabby end and dragging the pole behind you. You'd have a much better chance of moving your polearm through the woods effectively. Fighting with one in the woods? Not if you could help it.

I remember reading that a big reason why the Roman military started going for big shield, throwing weapons, and swords for their infantry was because the hills in Italy made the spear formations fall apart and they stopped going for a Greek style phalanx because of how many of their enemies took advantage of it. Granted there are other arguments for it, but there was a really famous battle between Rome and the Seleucid Empire where a similar thing happened. The spear formations of the Seleucid's took so long to organize that Roman soldiers just slipped through the gaps in the Seleucid formation and tore them apart. As I recall, the battle took place on mountain ridge or something like that.

I believe that Lindybeige made a podcast about medieval woods saying the opposite - in middle ages it was like a farm and it was well kept and now it is wild and chaotic

A note on woods and spears: in my experience (primarily the American midwest and the Rocky Mountains), mature unmanaged forests are ofter relatively open, whereas the scrubby recent growth that you see on abandoned pastures and fields contain the densest most restrictive woodlands. In other areas, such as on the Olympic Peninsula, you do see dense, hard to move through old growth.

I’m pleased so many comments are about the jacket, gotta let our boy know he’s lookin fresh

Short thrusting spears like the African Assagai are something that you need to consider also.

Liked and shared. Three of the guys I shared this with run a sword school in Pittsburgh. They have open minds about weapons, however, and work out with several.

Always interesting to hear the pros and cons of a weapon as presented by your good self, Matt, your even-handed and thoughtful analysis is much appreciated.

I add that poles move branches and tell everybody where you are.

Thank you for going one step further. As amateur and professional historians, we encounter the "spears are/were better weapons than swords" argument quite often, as it isn't common knowledge in the public. Thank you for respecting your audience and cutting the argument as an intro.

Thank you for this video. I am developing a medieval themed video game, with an emphasis on realism, but I was having difficulty with spears and polearms being too OP. This gives me a good angle to offset their strengths!

+2:49 Mr. Easton addresses the title's question... Nice point about (anti) boarding pikes, on board ships! And about forest terrain too. Thank you for the video.

The humble spear stands aside as the flashy sword gets photographed and takes the credit, for the spear need not to go sleep remembering his fame and fortune. No, the spear sleeps soundly know that even though it may only be remembered today by so few, it was cherished by so many in days gone by. It doesnt mind who gets labeled as the hero of old, for it know who the real hero was.

When you're riding your bike playing knights, you end up arse over tit. Been there done that when I was 11 lol.

One kind of combat I would love to hear more about is ship-to-ship combat in the migration or viking era setting. The sagas have a lot of references to them happening and some skaldic verses of things that happen in them. Spears used in the same way as (anti-) boarding pikes is interesting, but also that we see many mentions of the sword and shield.

Matt you are the best teacher I’ve ever had. You’re channel is the bomb! Greetings from South Carolina!

Just to clarify, Boarding Pikes were not Pike Length. They were spear length, or about 8' (2.5m) Long.

Very good video. It actually reminds me of the Battle of Waterloo, where Wellington lined up his army in front of a forest. Bonaparte believed he was making a mistake since it was a traditional tactical error as armies and units even in that period usually couldn't move through wooded areas without losing cohesion. But Wellington had seen that forest a year before and noted that it was a cultivated forest with space between the trees. Cultivated forests even 200 years ago were that rare for a General to make mental notes of it.

In our US Civil War history class my excellent teacher (a military officer) said that the Eastern coastal forests were basically a rain forest in Spring & Summer. He said that hatchets & Bowie knives were often carried by troops as a back up weapon. And that many volunteer units purchased/obtained revolvers and the shorter Henry rifle.

voldemort vloging in the woods, testing his wand.

I always watch your napoleonic sword videos but these are the ones I love. Thank you.

+scholagladiatoria *I concur on matching the arm to the tactical ground.* Musasi promoted the sword as an all-round arm, as it was usable in all but the tightest spaces and more manoeuverable than polearms. The staff was a common tool for hauling loads that could double as a blunt-force weapon, but indoor spaces constrained the staff even worse than forests.

Playing Conan Exiles to swing sword arouns like in the movie- end up using spears, javelins and pikes as they are just massively advantageus. That game does polearms right, damn, that reach!

When shorter weapons & spears intersect, I always think about the *iklwa.* This being Zulu short spear, introduced by Shaka (possibly invented by him as well). Its adoption was part of a major shift in Zulu battle strategy, using the traditional assegai for throwing at distant enemies then switching to the iklwa and a shield for close quarters combat.

Thanks, this video gave me some ideas for a table game

Matt: A lot of you will have gone walking in the woods Martin O'Donnell: On occasion

As soon as you popped up in the forest I flashed back to the 80's. I was working at the original Renaissance Faire in California, back when it was about Living History instead of Fantasy. I was in the "household of Hugh O'Neil", and for a while I played a man-at-arms, which meant that in parades I either carried a spear in the van or a flag at point. I was at the Northern site, which was basically a forest of California live oak, manzanita, and California laurel with a bunch of paths, sometimes wide, through it. Those tree branches reach waaay out from the trunk. As we marched, those of us with pole-arms were constantly bringing them down to clear under the branches. And whenever we did that we had to grab the point with one hand "for the safety of the audience." Can't go walking along with a spear tip at eye-level right next to a customer without controlling it, don'cha know.

As a canadian traveling to Europe for the first time and walking "in the forest", I was shocked at how clean they were. LotR "forest" fight scenes were one of the first times I noticed this difference in movies. It is very different from old forests. Longbows and polearms would be a pain to carry, but really even walking is and you really shouldn't fear cavalry charges.

I like the "debunking myself" series! Keep it up! :D

A point about the way woods looked. I recently watched a Lindybeige video, yes I know he can be a bit off on some things but he made good points here, where he talked about the way medieval forests looked. And they would look a bit different to what you are describing there epically around towns and villages. Those forests would be managed a bit more. They would need to go into them to get wood for cooking and heating and they probably would clear not only paths for their carts but a lot of the undergrowth to make it easier to move the wood. This would be epically true where they where coppicing or pollarding. Not to mention the different foodstuffs they would be getting from the forests.

there are 3 weapons that were used around the world for extensive periods, missle weapons, spears and anything combined with a shield

When I was in the army, we were commanded to attack a fenced area and approach it from super dense woodland, it was pain in the butt to just carry an AK around there, not to mention assault vest getting aswell stuck in all kinds of brances and stuff, i could imagine carrying a pike and armor...

He spoke ill of the spear. HERESY!

I used to spend a lot of time up in northern Alberta and the big boreal forests and muskeg up there. You're right, a completely wild forest is a heck of a beast to traverse.

There are a few times spears were avoided: 1. Officers: Renaissance officers rarely bothered with polearms, because they weren't supposed to fight in formation, and moving through a formation with a two-handed weapon could cause problems. Some wouldn't even have a weapon in hand at all, using something like a baton instead, but they would always have a sword, at least. I suspect this was true even long before this point, but this is where we get plates as proof. 2. Mounted infantry: this was more common before the High middle ages, but many mounted soldiers actually fought on foot, acting as a mobile reserve or flank. Being less numerous as a matter of fact, they needed to be able to remount quickly, and could easily fumble if using a big weapon in this capacity (or perhaps simply had no room for one, using bows or javalins instead,) so usually opted for a sword for melee instead.

Interesting. I once (!) tried battle reenactment with a pole arms unit, and the first thing I learned is that group cohesion is probably the most important thing the unit has to maintain. One guy falls out of line by 1 step, and the whole unit is toast in seconds. So, I see that not working in a forest, swordsmen that you normally would easily hold at bay will wipe the floor with you in no time. Yup. It also emphasizes how brilliant Henry´s battle plan at Agincourt really was, where he placed the archers at the sides close to the woods and had dismounted men at arms secure the foret edge. So he presumably knew.

I had the same idea like some others in the comments great jacket. Hope you have a great day gladiatorial

This relates well with my most recent fixation: The trench gun. A shot gun is a relatively short long-gun. even with the M9 bayonet attached, doesn't exceed 45". My daily exercise, as of late, alternates between bayonet drills - which you video helped with, by the way - and an escrima drill that I adapted to the messer. Part of the point of the exercise is what weapons have utility in a confined space like the apartment that I live in.

I grew up with lots of woods nearby my house, and I loved to go walking in them. I always carried a staff of some sort. Certain times of year, spiders would make webs EVERYWHERE. I would hold my staff straight in front of me and twirl it in a circular motion (in a basic 3D cone) to knock down any spiderwebs in the way. It worked, and I never felt like I was encumbered by it.

Hey Matt, great video as always! I have a historical example, although I would still hesitate to state that the pole weapon was at a disadvantage in this example. The Battle of Cynoscephalae (197 BC) fought between Roman legions led by Flaminius and Macedonian phalanges led by Philip V was a victory for the legion over the phalanx. I would say that the Macedonians lost for several reasons, though: not having the phalanges fully formed up before the legions attacked, having to deal with elephants, not having a Companion Cavalry, not having men in reserve, etc. The terrain of this battle wasn't wooded, but grassy hills, if I remember correctly.

Thank you for remembering the Welsh! If I remember correctly, Giraldus Cambrensis talks about the lightly-armed Irish fortifying the edges of forests by pleaching the foliage, to defend against the Normans.

Ah... 3:55... I finally understand the picture used on the cover of UK SUBS’ first album, after 41 years. Thanks a lot.

As an American with Welsh ancestry, as well as those crazy Norwegians, I see this information as a, "how don't you know this stuff", this is your history. Be proud of it. Thank you for the post, very much enjoyed it, makes me happy the young ones are keeping it going.

Great video. Thank you.

It also depends on the specific polearm. Something like a poleaxe, polehammer, or a short spear like an iklwa, would work in more confined spaces than a longer polearm like a pike, longer spear, bill, or halberd.

Location Location! Woods and Jungles also use small bows and weapons, blowpipes and hides and traps. In the open, besides the usual ones, we see thing like the Bolos (Las tres Marias) of Argentina, trips and other devices to disable horse and thus rider. Ropes or Lariets have been first reported in the army of Xerses as important skills. Like bows in the hands of a skilled roper mounted or not, can take out a knight beyond spear distance. Note that mounted horsemen in the east used bows in the initial attack.

Interesting that you talk about modern woods being managed woodfarms. I believe it was Lindybeige who said it was the opposite: unmanaged forests were very rare in the past, due to the high demand for both fuel and construction material. I know that most of the forests near me are very dense (unmanaged) as soon as you stray off the path.

I don't know an example from history, however I noticed while Larping, that woods really tend to disorganize you. We have been in really dense forest at several occasions, and we almost never where able to uphold any kind of formation. 2 people fighting back to back is the best we got.

I fully agree that long weapons are more difficult to use in woodlands, though there would be times when fighting with long weapons in a forest would not be as much of a hindrance as one might think because of there being far less undergrowth in some woodlands in the past compared to modern times. In woodlands with a high density of wildlife or if they were close to farmland where farmers would let their livestock loose in the forest to feed on the undergrowth, forests would be far easier to navigate through. I remember touring through the historic Gettysburg battleground where there were several locations where the battle took place in woodlands, and while today there is so much undergrowth in those woodlands that you can hardly walk off of the trail, but when the battle of Gettysburg took place there was almost no undergrowth because livestock were constantly let loose in the woodlands to eat everything they could reach, so the soldiers fighting there had enough space to make bayonet charges though the woods

Fascinating. I never considered this, but this information can create a lot of realism, especially in roleplaying games with story-heavy rulesets like Dungeon World.

I am only familiar with forests in the Eastern US. Most forests, which may be 80 to 120 years old, are relatively open ground. But there is a very beautiful scourge in some places, called the rhododendron thicket. These shrubs may grow 15 feet high and have branches as thick as a man's forearm. I saw a female bear tear through such a place as if it were tissue paper. But if a man gets in it, he may have trouble getting out. In one instance, I did get in. It took about 3 hours to travel half a mile and twice, my "pole arm" (a 5 foot rake handle converted to walking stick) got stuck in the branches and struck me in the throat. It appeared the only way to get out alive that day would be to climb the sandstone mountain on my left, so I could walk down the open terrain on its ridge. This was another adventure. The slope was about 80 degrees, so I was scrambling up on my belly. The forest service had recently done a controlled burn in the area, so everything that I took hold of crumbled in my hand. When I finally got to the top, I knelt and gave thanks to God and supposed I was the first human since Hernando DeSoto to see this spot! Of course this was not true. A brief look around revealed rubbish from the 1960s. So yes, the point of this video is very well taken. A long stick in a thick tangle is a troublesome thing.

Just another quick history tidbit in regards to WW1 trenches and why they had that zigzag form. You are right about the shrapnel however another important factor was that it obstructed the point of aim for enemies if they were to overrun the trenches

When the Massachusetts Bay Company set off to settle its colony, they chartered a company of pikemen to protect the colony. I am pretty sure the original charter is still in Boston. When they got to their destination, they realized that full pikes weren't going to do them ANY good fighting in the woods against the native population, so they cut their weapons down to half-pikes to adapt to the local terrain and potential foes. Similarly, British officers in the American Revolution discarded their Spontoons by about 1777 in favor of fuzees (lighter and shorter versions of the standard Short Model Brown Bess) in order to operate more easily in the North American woodlands (among countless other kit changes by the army in North America).

Spearmen and cavalry both have it rough in the woods. They have it even rougher if they actually have to fight each other in the woods. Good luck.

That reminded me about military sapper shovels. Maybe sometimes make a video about effective improvised weapons throughout history? As for a battle, the one that immediately comes to mind, of course, is the battle at Teutoburg forest. But Romans haven't been using long spears, so maybe that's not what you were asking for. Anyways - thanks, Matt, for the great content!

I think there is some unkept wood next to my apartment. There are vines that grow in the area which try to turn everything into a bramble. There was one battle in the 1812 war where cannons were completely ineffective because the woods were so thick.

Thanks, Matt. This is very interesting militarily but (of course there's a but) having run the Palaeoquest project (finished-sorry) I can assure you a spear, slightly taller than the user, is absolutely essential when moving through natural woods - particularly on dark nights. Testing depths of mud/water, vaulting holes/ditches etc., deflecting branches, crossing rivers and so many other activities are simplified, made safer, or even made possible. This was never a problem, but defence (crouching - rear foot on the spear's end) against ambush predators is almost instant.

Thanks Matt @scholagladiatoria. The underappreciation of polearms is very prominen in traditional roleplaying games, and in computer games. It would be interesting to hear some thoughts on why that might be justifiable. I personally think (being generous) that your typical "adventurer", or action archeologist carries a sword because while they do a lot of fighting, they also do a ton of travelling, climbing, caving and so forth. It might be great to have a halberd when you need to face a wyvern or a troll, but carrying that thing around all day every day is usually a non-starter.

Before the battle of Beneventum Pirrus of Epirus and part of his Phalanx lost their way while trying to flank the romans through a forested hill, and were subsequently defeated by the romans. Who knows! Maybe part of their misfortune was due to the problem of moving their long pikes through the woods, during the night. Good point Matt

Great topic!

This topic reminded me of a scene from the Last of the Mohicans. A division of musketmen firing a salvo into the forest, the natives waiting for their shot, then rushing at them with axe and knife even though they all had muskets of their own. As I watched that scene I kept thinking: "Why would you use open field tactics in a forested area? It's clearly an ambush so don't spend your ammo needlessly if it takes time to reload!" How deep could you expect a salvo of bullets to go before they are absorbed by the trees and shrubbery? Can you expect bullets to bounce off and keep going or would they immediately bury into wood?

The Macedonian pike (sarissa) was carried in two halves, then united for battle. The two shafts were about nine feet long. Its sharp, leaf-shaped iron blade was about 20 inches long and the bronze butt spike shorter. A long dory, the hoplite spear, would have been about the same length as one of the two sarissa halves, but many were only two meters.

I literally live in the woods. Can confirm: There are many areas where you cannot traverse without getting into heavy foliage, and even having a carbine rifle can get obnoxious. I can't imagine trying to get through there quietly with a spear, let alone actually have to fight with one.

"Allot of you you who have been walking in the woods, have actually been walking in a managed wood farm" I always take for granted the forests out here in the United States. Out here in Rural Michigan we have seemingly endless miles of wild woods. Allot of it isn't older than 100 years since there was massive deforestation in the late 1800s but most of it is unmanaged natural forest.

As someone who lives in a tropical rainforested area I can say that navigating through it with a halberd/poleaxe/billhook would be a f@cking nightmare.

Absolutely correct about long weapons in the woods. I hunt grouse in N. America, and they live in 5 to 15 year old aspen trees. Those trees grow like hair on a dog. Everyone wants a long barreled shotgun (30 inches or so) for upland bird hunting, but I want a barrel under 24 inches. There have been many, many times when a bird gets up and it's simply impossible to point the shotgun at the bird because you're trying to push too many trees over. There are times walking through the young trees where you have to hold the shotgun almost vertically in front of yourself just to get it through! The usual strategy is to simply avoid walking through the woods and stick purely to the trails running through it.

I work as a field technician in an archaeology firm. Getting my 3ft spade through the woods is a pain in the ass sometimes (especially during summer), I can see why pikemen usually kept their pikes on carts.

You mention the use of boarding pikes on ships. In the truly excellent and well-researched “Ramage” novels by Dudley Pope, in describing boarding actions, the author talks about the crews of Royal Navy ships being allocated cutlasses, tomahawks and half-pikes in setting out their battle stations. Half-length pikes would perhaps be better in a close quarters melee, as boarders fought hand-to-hand with the crew of the boarded ship. This would be even more the case in the event that the defending crew were caught below decks, or retreated there. By the way, I really like your collaboration with the inimitable Tod.

"Sometimes a big pole is a hindrance in the bush." This channel isn't just the ultimate destination for the minutiae of historical weapons, it's also the premier channel for sophomoric double-entendre.

In Swedish history the period of the rebbelion against the Kalmar Union (late 15th early 16th century) the woods played a big part of the warfare since the Swedes mainly relied on pesant-solders who had a hard time compete with the Danish hierd German mercinaries in the open field. So what they usually did was to lure the Danish into areas where the polearms where less effective and forced the fighting to be less "organised". Theres some battles from this period that starts as a danish victory but ends horribly just because they chased the swedish pesant-soldiers into the wood where they were able to turn the tide.