A hell of a game of tag lol

I read an old 4chan that said if Curze is Batman the Lion is Bane because he shattered Curzes spine in their last fight.

The lion is the bomb 💣 for the first 😎

What is it with primarchs and back breaking maneuvers?

@@GrumbleGrimbus works though

Lion*

Obi-wan was the master of defensive lightsaber combat, it’s why he was always coming out on top against aggressive duelists like Maul, Greivous, and Anakin, but would lose to a patient and lethal duelist like Count Dooku. He wasn’t a generalist, he specialized in the direct counter to everyone else’s specialty.

Yeah, that way is called plot armor

@@11jerans Obi-Wan actually lost several fights to Grievous and Maul during the Clone Wars.

@@11jerans The adoption of Qui Gon's style when (finally, finally) killing off Maul says different!

well he was dealing with some anger issue's

So he did what he should do? I would expect a Primarch to be able to slaughter plague marines and daemon engines, even before the Custodians do. He is supposed to be bigger faster and better than Custodies. I would expect this out of every single one of them.

@@Ronfost89 True

​@@Ronfost89 to be fair, daemon engines are a hard fight in general.

@@TheBloodGamePL going from one fight to another and still putting up a strong fight is worth something

@@TheBloodGamePL disagree

@@TheBloodGamePL he was not beating the living shit out of g men, gmen was able to block his attacks but was severely getting pushed back by the ferocity of the assault, although angron would have died due to whatever the hell the butchers nails were doing, and so lorgar basically made angron a demon.

beating up lorgar isn't much of an achievement considering Corax was eviscerating him while exhausted and with only a single blade usable.

Angron didn’t ascend until after the fight. Lorgar wasn’t powered up yet. So long as you know.

These are daemon ones though if he can hold out against them what could he do to tgeir base line

Read unremembered empire, this isn't the case at all, he's to noble and is very much in the End doesn't justify the means. The reason he nearly comes to blows with the lion us because the lion does follow the ends justify the means

And Regarding Guilliman v Lorgar. During the fight Lorgar was focused on Angron's ascension ritual. Not only that, but Lorgar saved Guilliman's life by completely stopping Angron's movement with a thought.

@@AlexanderForsman Wasn't there also prophecy or vision that if Lorgar would fight Guilliman on Calth he would kill him, but he would not succeed in creating ruinstorm?

@@jkgf4671 It went something like: "If you go to calth, you will kill guilliman and get the respect of your brothers, but you will lose the war "

@@AlexanderForsman , yeah but he failed at both so clearly the " prophecy" was complete bullshit.

@@AlexanderForsman , lorgar started the ritual when Ingram showed up up to that point he was fighting Guilliman and one-on-one and losing. Even bolstered by chaos he was still losing.

I remember this quote. As awesome as it is I have to take it with a grain of salt. Thiel is biased in his father’s favor because he is his son. I think almost any Astartes from any legion would consider their Primarch to be one of the best fighters amongst their brothers. But who knows, even the weakest primarch is a god of war

@@wanabeguitarguy Although it is stated by one of his sons, I think the nature of the claim is actually very important. This line is written from the viewpoint of his son and even then he specifies that at about a fourth/third of the primarchs do have the upper hand. This implies knowledge of the other primarchs. A claim that Guilliman always has a reasonable(not guaranteed) chance of victory outside of the few who make him the underdog of the fight. giving cause to believe his actual heresy era self is quite an adversary. ((i think the current era guilliman fights were written unduly in that they demanded he have plot armor and were to show off other key players in the story.))

Guilliman ripped apart galvorbak (not sure of the spelling) marines when he boarded lorgar's ship.. He's hiding what he can really do at times.. I doubt we've seen everything he can do as a fighter.. The thing about that feat is that HE CHARGED HEADLONG WITHOUT ANY STRATEGY.. He led from the front, basically straight up channeled russ into his rampage..

Off the top of my head primarchs that would def beat him in a duel pre-heresy: Leman The lion Hawk boy Horus Ferrus Vulkan Fulgrim Conrad Khan Corax Magnus (if using his powers) The ones who would probably win: Angron Perty Morty Rogal

@@thecakewuzalie I totally buy that. I think Guilliman definitely has a chance at beating many of his brothers in a fight, I just don’t think he is among the better fighters personally. Not that he is a slouch in any way

Yeah, he gives it to Corax 8 in 10 times. But that's just going to be their starting odds. Each and every fight they have, the odds will swing more and more in Guillimans favour.

Anyone who fights learns from their mistakes. I imagine Corax is no different.

@@MrSpartanspud Yeah. But no one seems to learn from it as well as Guilliman does.

Rho does seem to frequently give the Ultramarines a disservice, because it’s trendy to do so. Honestly, superior strategy aside, the Ultramarines are likely one of the better legions all around. Probably 5th or 6th

Curze killed him multiple times head on, check out the book Vulcan Lives

@@georgesoha4725 yeah, but crucially, he could never break Vulkan. Still, curze did some nasty shit

bah 40K lore is mostly just fan service.

@@georgesoha4725 Vulkan literally told Curze he always suppressed his strength when fighting his brothers, particularly when it came to curze because he was the most fragile weakest of them all. He then grabbed curze like a child and beat the crap outta him without any armor.

@@Internetbutthurt Then why are you watching 40k lore videos?

I would say you can say the same about the White Scars and the Khan

I have nothing against the guy. It was the propaganda fellation by our Spiritual Liege Matt Ward that made me dislike Rowboat Girlyman and his Smurfs. Anything, the Oncoming Storm and Guilliman doing his best to keep the Imperium together have done much to restore him as a likeable character.

@@lockiet7227 You could. However the Khan was not impressed with the vision of the imperium. Technologies yes. Bureaucracy no. His vision would be freer movement,not industrial fiefdoms. The Khan's vision was loyalty to the people. Gulliman had a sense of duty, people with purpose and well treated. Both had a similar view from opposite poles. Protect your people, give them leadership and vision.

Similar to the comments about the Khan, you can also say the same about Dorn. Guilliman and Dorn are the two that had interplanetary/interstellar empires before they were found. Both of them know how to build and protect civilizations.

He fought fulgrim only to delay him, so he could win the battle. He didn’t count on fulgrim being a 10 meter daemon snake with 4 hands and 17 tits…

True and at the same time what does Guilliman do best. Lead an army. No one is going to out smart the twins when they work together and they would have been hard pressed in a fight if both were coming at you.

Except they really aren't shown fighting together and fighting isn't their thing, they try and win wars without firing a single round. that's the reason Alpharius or Omegon noped the fuck out when faced with Russ, everyone knows how that ends and thats not how they wage war.

@@FoxHound-ut1hu they are shown fighting together actually, and they say that they actually relished it for once because all the times fighting without the other always felt like one hand was tied behind their backs.

@@FoxHound-ut1hu in the Alpharius Primarch novel we see Alpharius definitively state that for his whole life if fighting alone he felt something was missing, and when Omrgon fought beside him he started that they clearly where meant to be one fighter

@@josephzark6232+ This makes me strangely sad. That the Twins so rarely got to feel whole in all their life and then one of them gets killed so it can never happen again...

Mine you out of all the primarchs guilliman and horus are the only ones we don't know what their secret powers are. Everyone either been hinted at or flat out shown, but not guilliman, his power still hidden.

@@Fourtytwo4242 I thought that it was pretty well established that Horus has "charisma" and Roboute has "logistics" as their respective superpowers? It may not be as flashy as Corax turning invisible but both are absolutely OP in anything bigger than a 1v1.

Same could be said for Leman, correct?

@@wanderhillen2435 I get what you mean but Sanguinius was also incredibly charismatic to the point of being on par with Horus but he was also a flying angel man with op powers. Dorn and Perty were also pretty great at logistics but Dorn is a primarch level blank and Perty could understand completely any machine he looked at and had a special connection to the eye of terror. So while Guilliman and Horus may be the definitive best at logistics and charisma there are other primarchs who are at least comparable in those fields but also have some super special powers.

@@mcnuggets2825 bingo, yeah they are masters but really that more so how they were raised and trained, Guilliman is the man he is because of his parents, not because of his powers. He is still be question mark, he could have anything.

Dorn killed omegon not alpharius, they swapped places.

@@ryanshiver9044 that’s what they wanted you to think but really it was alpharius

Alpharius or Omegon... No guarantee Dorn even killed a Primarch. Even when they give us various "evidence" to back it up. There are no certainties with the Alpha Legion except that there are no certainties.

@@davidring681 I am alpharius.

A clean death.

I agree, the Lion is one of only 2 G man looked up too, the other being Horus. Also after UE and Ruinstorm they become much closer so the Lion coming back, being possibly the top general of the primarchs, would give G man the ability to focus on fixing the broken government of the Imperium while the Lion would focus on murderdestroying Xenos and traitors

I mostly just think it's spelled "Roboute". Otherwise I agree it would be pretty awesome if the Lion would be the next loyalist primarch to return.

@@bobakrabii6220 I thought he respected Sanguinius as well? Though maybe in a different way to Horus and The Lion.

I think it’s impressive that you managed to misspell his first and last name the same way throughout that entire wall of text.

While I agree the Lion needs to return for Guilliman’s sake, I think the Lion is closer to Russ by far. Recall the scene on Terra after the Heresy ended, and Lion stabbed Russ through the chest with his sword, eliminating the bad blood between them, ironically. Lion’s history with Guilliman is far more nuanced, though not really dislike. Lion actually went to Macragge with the idea that he was going to find Guilliman and the Ultramarines flirting with treachery. Lion even intended to raze Macragge until Sanguinius showed up and talked down the situation. That’s precisely why the Lion has to be the one returning. He suspected Guilliman during the GC of wanting to split off Ultramar as his own empire. And now that Guilliman is in the arguably best position to make this a reality, he is being tested in his loyalty. The Lion would be not just a great help to Guilliman, but to serve as a reminder to keep Guilliman on the straight and narrow.

Hahahahahaha Bobby G. This is my new favorite thing.

I agree, trying to suss out if he would beat brother X or brother Y in a fight is missing the point. It's like a boxer claiming he could take the epic level wizard in a fistfight. Of course he can, but the wizard would turn him into a frog before the match ever started. Guilliman wins the war before a single battle is ever fought, through superior training and logistics.

@@wanderhillen2435 Except against the Lion, who is every bit his superior when it comes to tactics and warfighting, and one of the few Guilliman looks up to. The First would likely rout the Ultrasmurfs in campaign.

Read/listen Angel Exterminatus, Perturabo ANNIHILATED Fulgrim with his bare hands. An amazing book.

@@tsvetanpanov191 Also kicks the shit out of Angron in Slaves to Darkness.

@@TheAtomicSpoon ye, ye, ye man I know, Rho even mentioned it but he was a bit dismissive, instead of give Perturabo the credit he OWNS like a fkn boss! ;D

@@TheAtomicSpoon you have to remember the books are almost pure fan service, however if Angron has a soft spot for any of his brothers its Perturabo given, despite the 'lore' that came later re World Eaters and Word Bearers, World Eaters and Iron Warriors were the original battle brothers combo

@@TheAtomicSpoon+ He defeats Angron with a lot of help and some very heavy context. He freely admits himself he wouldn't stand a chance in a "fair" 1v1 battle.

Guilliman low-key abolished the Codex Astartes seeing it as outdated

I think you are right. Also in 40k I think he is stronger than ever....He feels like he is the imperiums only hope. When everyone is counting on you people tend to hit a little hard and last a bit longer than they should.

I want Super Saiyan Guilliman too lmao

True, look what the emperor has done with a sister of battle. Now imagine that us Primarch warp fuckery

@@Ashtor1337 What did he do?

@@aniketbiswas7660+ Turned her into a Living Saint (read: Daemon Prince/ss of the Emperor).

That's what I said

Alpharius lives!

what can i say, he is the student of malcador, the all head of the inquisition

What about Fulgrim or Mortarian? Angron too

All deamon powered or he had already fought another primarch.

The lion would win against everyone. Itd be close with Sanguinius but the lion would win.

Dorn bodies most of his brothers in a straight fight. He’s got that khabib “I’m not fucking around” vibe

@@proudsaiyanprince2651 agreed. Outside of Sang, Lion and Horus those brothers could best him… than there's Jag, Pert, Fulgrim, Rus and I will include Kurze who would be around the same level as Dorn. I'm not including Vulcan or Magnus for obvious reasons.

On one vs one you say or in War ?

@@victorb300 pretty sure he means 1 v 1

@@victorb300 strategy and discipline is cool and all until them red boys start calling you Horus.

I don't see Guilliman EVER being able to beat Curze or Corax. I also don't see him being able to win against Fulgrim, unless Fulgrim would not even care to try to fight him, like he did with Dorn.

@@jkgf4671 correct me if I'm wrong but didn't russ beat horus in a one on one and then hesitated to kill him wouldn't that mean he could beat guliman as well or was horus not fully powered up then

And he messed up an armoured Fulgrim face with his toy warhound and choked him on the wall like a punk. In his tunic, pure muscle and fierce will, like Ferrus.

Wait isn't russ in some way more immune to psychic powers? He's also kinda immune to chaos, no?

You should read the Burning of Prospero again... Russes howl literaly kills weak psykers.

Magnus has telekinetic powers strong enough to lift people into orbit, unless that somehow doesn't work on brother primarchs he should be able to do that to anyone dumb enough to face him in anything resembling melee. The only way to kill someone like that is through ambush (good luck against a future-seeing mind reader), from sufficient distance with exterminatus or if you are some sort of uber-level blank. Maybe Russ has bullshit hax with his howl but it seems more like plot armor than anything else. A primarch tier warrior is just not as powerful as a primarch tier wizard.

Russ was built to kill his brothers if that was needed, i think he is uniquely able to resist Magnus's schtick.

During the Siege of Terra, Magnus psychically lifted a Capitol Imperialis tank explicitly stated to weigh 67,000 tonnes, and threw it like a football (while also freezing it in time so it wouldn't explode until it hit the wall). I don't care how much "resistance" Russ has to psychic powers, Magnus should have crushed him like a beer can.

I think realistically you could only consider the top tier combatant primarchs in that scenario: The Lion, Russ, Fulgrim, Sanguinius, Horus, Jaghatai, and Curze, with an honourable mention to Magnus due to the deus ex machina nature of psyker powers. Even then, two against one would be a stretch (nigh on impossible) for any of them

@@Erika_Redmark Dorn isn't top Tier and did a number on one of the brothers. I think Russ, Sanguinius, Corax (who you missed) out of the loyalists would shred the brothers. Of the non-loyalists, Fulgrim, fully-powered Angron, and Mortarion would all beat the brothers. If we're talking about a fully-powered horus / his twin Abaddon - think that would be an easy win as well.

Fair points.. But remember that a roman formation while emphasizing team work, it also requires each individual to be strong fighters in order to fully fight effectively with their fellow soldiers.. So I'd think that guilliman would be at least a little concerned if he didn't measure up to his brothers in terms of fighting prowess..

@@lavatun , only if he was fighting in formation with them. His doctrine of war would never include that cuz the idea of having to fight side by side with one of his brothers in formation is ludicrous you've clearly done something wrong if that were to occur.

Size scaling in 40k is definitely weird.

The gauntlets of ultramar's inner mechanisms shift around to fit the hands of the wielder I think.. Kinda like the infinity gauntlet that tony stark made when the hulk puts it on.. It was the size of a normal human hand at first but then resized itself to be able to fit on hulk's hand..

I think there's no need , the list goes (in universe ofc) 1- Horus 2- Dorn 3- Guilliman Even Horus admitted that Guilliman might be better than him in the art of war , but in terms of victories only Dorn comes close to him.

@@user-mh2lw4om8h even there i think you cant count out the angle that easy. Hes a figure that would spawn unlimited soldiers with kriegmans moral just because they know they are fighting for him. My ranking there would be 1. Horus 2. Sanguinius 3. Guilliman 4. Dorn Even Horus said that Sanguinius would be the better Warmaster so he has to be atleast 2de on that list. With 1 and 2, 3 and 4 be very close and a gap between 2 and 3.

Perturabo needs a mention here if we're counting Dorn as well. They are practically 2 sides of the same coin. Having said that, Guilliman would be pretty much top tier as a strategist in complete co yeast to his position as a raw fighter).

@@user-mh2lw4om8h You're forgetting the greatest general of all the Primarchs: Lion El'Jonson. He amassed victories more quickly than the Lunar Wolves, had better imperial compliance than the lunar wolves, and likely would have been Warmaster if it was simply a measure of strategic ability. The only reason The First fell out of the lead in campaigns, and The Lion out of favor for warmaster, is because they were dispatched to face enemies no other Legion was capable of defeating, the Rangdan, and got mauled considerably for their complete victory. Alpharius appeared before The Lion and pleaded with him to let the Alpha Legion carry on the war against the Rangdan and spare his legion to ensure he became Warmaster over Horus.

1. Roboute Guilliman 2. Rowboat Gorillaman 3. Girlyman 4. Papa Smurf 5. Horus/Lion 6. Dorn/Perturabo 7. most other primarchs 8. Lorgar 50. Angron This isn't even a contest. Dude conquered 500 worlds without the unlimited ressources of the Imperium behind him or gene-enhanced, loyal to death sons/space marines around. Or even generally favourable equipment as the warmaster position and/or a secret arsenal of doomsday weapons would grant.

I feel it too. Dorn killed an imposter. So did Guilliman.

Jesus parallel

To be fair both fights against fulgrim were stacked against him. The first time it was a sucker punch and the second time fulgrim was enhanced by chaos. So I don’t think using those fights is fair to ferrus

Guilliman couldn't beat Ferrus. It was Fulgrim's style that beat him, not mere swordsmanship.

I would like to think that guilliman would be at least half way up the rank list on a one and one fight with one of his brothers

Mortarion literally defeated Gman with his poison breath and then his warp fuckkery!! This guy is a fuckking tool, no doubt about that.

I don't think he "forgets" valuable combat skills like that. Same tactics that work vs Russ might not be all aplicable vs the Lion, but if he learn to fight on par with Russ he will be able to best most opponents.

@@maciekwilkosz6377 Hence why I said "necessarily". Experience is experience after all.

Vulkan is hands down the strongest physically.. Ferrus is a very close second.. Don't forget that vulkan once tossed a tank (a baneblade if I'm not mistaken)

And sheer amout of firepower Perty brings to the fight would also matter Because he doesn't need to get close to best his brother he just needs to see him

@@skaut_games7644 exactly everyone's forgetting what everyone's strong points are one-on-one duels or one thing but I do believe it was Gilliman who said he would never call out Perterabo because Perterabo would just Nuke him.

Ranking them is stupid as fuck almost all primarch fights end with stupid errors or intervetions for the plot and not all primarchs have fight enought of their brothers

@@Ashtor1337 Gulliman challeneges Perty to the duel. Perty loads his Davy Crockett gun. Gulliman: What do you have there brother ? Perty: A smoothie

Magnus was not at his Full strength. Who was the Emperor without his Psychic might? Magnus is a top tier Primarch unhindered. He's is sharded now as a Daemon Primarch. Roboute now carries the Emperor's presence with him.

Roboute already wiped the floor with Magnus's ass AFTER his demonic ascension!!

Also, the idea that Guilliman killed Alpharius is super suspect. Besides it would just be boring, why kill Alpharius when he could be a returning character who is more interesting.

Guilliman killed an imposter. He said it was too easy. Dorn may have killed Omegon's agent and not Omegon.

I agree!

Nope... sorry only the spear of the custodes.. no armor

The lion is way to high on that list as is Curze. Logar, yes he's a bitch, would still stomp the floor with the twins. The twins were smaller and weaker then Thier brother. It's stated by one of them in the horse heresy novels when they stand before Horace and realize how much smaller they are.

@@Ashtor1337 I disagree. Lorgar has repeatedly shown himself to be the weakest and least combat effective of all the Primarchs. Alpharius at the very least matched Dorn at th beginning of their battle. Compared to Lorgar, who has been handling defeated/beaten down by many of the Primarchs. As for Curze and the Lion, I truly believe they are the best combatants under our loveable angel boy. The Lion has been called and shown to be one of the most skilled swordsmen in 40k. Managing to outmanuveur and ultimately best Konrad's future sight. Only the Khan rivals the Lion in the Combat speed. For Curze, my reasoning here is he has been shown to not only be one of the most ferocious fighters amoung his brothers, with both Roboute and Sanguinius speaking of the danger he poses in close combat. His future sight gives him an enormous advantage in combat. Now, yes he has been defeated by both the Lion and Vulkan, but the former is as previously stated a freaking sword saint and the latter caught him by surprise and Konrad was nearly completely broken mentally at this point. I believe it essentially comes down to this, in single combat without chaos empowerment. Can the Lion/Konrad defeat everyone below them. And my Answer is yes.

Your list sucks. No idea why Sanguinius is number 1. He is greatly overrated. And Magnus? He is the most powerful Primarch in absolute terms and Angron was a gladiator and warrior his whole life.

lists don't work, it's balance

Yes Lord Inquisitor that Heretic over there 😂

The sword does permakill demons

Wasn't it stated that Angron was the only other Primarch who could beat Sanguinius aside from MAYBE Horus?? He certainly defeated Russ even if his army was outmaneuvered and he ended up in a kill zone. Even then, his World Eaters took more skulls than the Wolves did and Russ didn't argue when Angron claimed that even if he died, his legion would go on to kill the rest of Russ' legion. . I agree with your list for the most part though I'm curious about your reasoning for having Curze so high (rather than around Corax level), Ferrus where he is, Angron anywhere near as low as he is, and Guilliman higher than anyone aside from Alpharius and Lorgar. Even Dorn seems a little low and if we're being realistic, I'm not sure there's any reason why Magnus should be on top given the scale of his powers. Being second to only the Emperor in power and being more than capable of sitting on the Golden Throne indefinitely - despite the effort of doing so for more than a few hours turned Malcador to dust - seem a like something that would elevate Magnus to the top of the list simply by using his powers to overwhelm any of his brothers.

​@@justinanderson2460 Obviously my 40k lore isn't as complete as I'd like, so especially in regards to Ferrus I really struggle to know the scope of where his strength should be. As for everyone else you talked about I think they're all really hard to place, especially Magnus. Russ to me seems like he sort of allows himself to be beaten against Angron, the Lion and even Horus to some degree. But I think it's equal parts that compared to him being unable to discard his emotions and be this cold blooded executioner. So is his full potential as high as I've put him? I don't know. I think I'm too biased against Angron, as I feel he would just "slip up" against too many primarchs, despite his ridiculous combat prowess. And with Curze I think his foresight is just too OP on top of him being a top tier fighter primarch. If I remember correctly he is 1:1 with the Lion -but would have killed him if he wasn't stabbed through his back/collarbone. And the Lion is my highest rated primarch when it comes to fighting without having the plot-armor that Sanguinius and Horus have(with Sanguinius being presented as the best fighter, Horus the best of the best, and them both having to die where they're written to die). So that makes Curze as dangerous as I've put him by process of elimination. Though I could just as likely place him below Russ and above Fulgrim. I also think that, yes -Guilliman is a statecrafter and strategist rather than a fighter, but because he is so brainy it bleeds into his fighting and makes him better than most people give him credit for. When he isn't borderline suicidal like in the current lore he should be able to outsmart opponents that are magnitudes better than him, and therefor out""skill"" them even in 1v1 combat. Magnus has the biggest "scope" of powers, period. But I don't think he is that great at applying those powers to combat, or at least not in regard to 1v1-ing other primarchs. There are also Primarchs like Russ, Dorn and the Lion who have bullshit anti-warp powers, so that would drive him down the list. But he IS hard to place, because theoretically he should be able to do major psyker BS unless the battle isn't initiated completely against him. Though I also think he is so prideful that he could be baited into melee against his brothers. Lastly I agree with Dorn being a bit low. But I feel like Perterado, Mortarion, Guilliman, Alpharius and Dorne are all "battlefield commanders + something else" rather than being primarily fighter primarchs. Drone and Alpharius can function as independent actors, but I don't think they're necessarily made to hammer primarch level foes without the encounter being engineered by them.

@@PigeonCrash + Ferrus is, I do agree, hard to place. He's not quite the the list Fulgrim is but he's almost as strong as Vulcan physically. Over all we just don't have nearly enough to go on compared to most of his brothers. . Russ didn't lose to the Lion at all. He stopped fighting and then got sucker punched. Besides, neither were out for blood so that's far from definitive. Horus vs Leman is also kinda hard because Horus was empowered (at least to some degree) by Chaos but Russ was wielding a specifically Anti-Chaos weapon. That said, he did have Horus essentially beat but his emotions get the better of him and it allowed Horus to turn the tables at the end and escape. . I have to disagree with Angron though. Russ allowing himself to lose is a possibility I suppose but considering that Angron left snapped his sword, beat him into he ground and left Russ crawling away, spitting up his own blood, I can't imagine Russ, with the pride he has, taking such a vicious beating - especially in front of his sons - just to try and prove a point. He was, after all tasked by the Emperor to bring Angron to heel but Russ deemed this something he could not accomplish and ended up leaving instead. I'm actually interested about what you mean by "slip up" and where you get the idea. When you consider his history as a gladiator (where "slipping up usually means your death) and his own rage combined with the Butcher's Nails driving him to fly comic almost every time, I personally can't see him exactly making mistakes. . The foresight thing really is a big bonus and it's hard to fight against. The Lion did it but he's arguably the best swordsman of the lot when we're talking overall skill. Horus is yes, the best of me best in practically everything but gets edged out in specializations Sanguinius is almost as skilled as the Lion but has his inner ferocity AND a clearer, more pure version of Konrad'a pre-cognition on top of that. Plus... y'know... flight. I appreciate your reasonable logic in the placing of Curze though. I personally do oscillate between having him essentially where you have him and then down at Corax level but even then, Corax fluctuates for me as well so it's kinda up in the air for me. This is why I like getting other people's views and thoughts on it. . I see what you mean with Guilliman and I do agree to an extent however, I think it's more of a "gets better against a foe each time he loses". Think of the simulation where Corax actually defeats Guilliman in a strategic battle the fist time they try it, bit then never wins again. Similarly, I think Guilliman has the benefit of improving more and more each time against a specific foe but at the same time, I do think that this would only stretch so far - particularly in raw combat where he is one of the lesser skilled and gifted innately. He definitely gets roo much crap in my opinion however, I still see most of the other Primarch's also having their own advantages which help balance out Guilliman's tactical prowess - particularly in a one on one combat where his strategies are far more limited than in larger scale engagements. . I know I already mentioned this, but Malcador was able to body and even outright intimidate even the Primarchs with his powers and Magnus is a tier against above Malcador. The Sigilite literally his a planet in the Warp woth his powers and thendragged it out again later. The guy was ridiculous. I do agree with some of your sentiment about Magnus being baited into melee and his pride and so on however, I'm more in the camp of it basically being for plot that Magnus wouldn't just turn most of his brothers into a peanut butter sandwich on contact if he so chose to. I get that Russ has anti-psyker properties which is part of the reason he won against Magnusin canon - combined with the Sisters of Silence and the fact he got a lucky shot in that hit Magnus in his psyker Eye (I mean Russ literally lashed out blindly after being smacked himself and his happened to hit Magnus where he was weakest) and despite all this, he still nearly died. Corn is so reasonable that the Warp literally recoiled from his presence so there's that. Bit what anti-psyker abilities does the Lion have?? And even with this stuff, There's no reason Magnus couldn't just grow himself to the size of a Titan again and step on them. He's even slowed/stopped time before. It's a little hard to see how he doesn't defeat practically anyone without some degree of plot set against him . I think Dorn was always a commander+ type until more recent lore that had him as a master swordsman up that with the best of them. Then again, he IS hard to place above a lot of others as well. I've never really seen mortarion as the commander type in the same way I see Perturabo, Dorn, Guilliman and Alpharius, I'm curious why you see him that way. I don't personally have a completely ironed out list myself, I'm still working on it and need to reread the Horus Heresy books but I do enjoy collecting knowledge and opinions (and the reasoning behind them) from others to add to my own.

@@justinanderson2460 The Lion and Russ were both out for blood after Russ tackled the lion. Its stated as much that both are bloodied in multiple places. However with before it turns into a brawl The Lion defeats him soundly, and the book makes a point that the Lion viewed it as an honor duel because he never followed through with his killing blow when he disarmed Russ. There is no canonical statement of nobody being able to defeat Sanguinius, and if you had to pick a single primarch to win a fight 1v1 against any other The Lion is likely your best bet. Malcador outright states amongst his brothers he's the apex predator, and his brothers are unnerved by him. Guilliman states outright he knows he's overshadowed by The Lion. Horus is so afraid of him he sends the Dark Angels to the opposite side of the galaxy because he knows they'd whoop his band of traitors probably by themselves. The Lion is also the perfect counter to Curze and Sangy's precognition. Canonically The Lion is such an instinctually perfect fighter he's capable of thwarting Curze's precog. Curze see's the next blow, moves to block it, The Lion instinctually recognizes it and changes the attack. Curze could see the future and was caught completely unawares when The Lion stabs him.

@@djii7837+ To be fair, I haven't read the Lion's and Russ's brawl since just after it came out so I'd have to go re-read it again. . Concerning Sanguinius, read again friend. I said that it was stated that only Angron and possibly Horus would be able to take down Sanguinius. I believe it was Corax who said this but o could be mistaken there. . A lot of what you said is also likely, but not concrete. Malcador's statement IS a very high commendation because the Sigilite is not known for his boasting or favouritism - which likely means he's right. Guilliman does feel overshadowed by the Lion yeah, but it's less unnerved or afraid and more like he feels his big brother is like the golden child who he is in the shadow of - which, at least compared to most of his brother except maybe Horus and Sanguinius, is kinda true of El'Johnson. However, Horus being afraid is up for debate. It's arguably more likely that he knew the Lion's affinity for military command, his strategic genius and the overall power of his Legion (From size to prowess) was something that could really mess with his plans. . I remember Curze having his pre-cog fooled by the Lion and yes, that give a him a very good edge against his brothers who have it. The Lion is definitely up there among the top fighters of his brothers and is undoubtedly the best duelist among them. However, I struggle to see him overcoming all of them as some have advantages that he can't as easily counter along with comparable skill. Moreover, not every battle is a duel and we've seen that be an issue for him in the past (for example, Curze managing to defeat him once he forced the fight to become a brawl - despite the Lion getting Konrad with a surprise stab to the gut before the fight even started).

Conrad Kurze puts Corax as a better version of himself. There is a quote from Kurze that says he hunted the night but Corax owns it. Coming from Kurze, who is top tier himself, that is something.

Higher, Corax is the man. The Emperor couldn't even glamour him and had a straight and honest relationship. That is strength in my opinion. He also looked like BigE, there could be unlocked elements in Corax. He's a loyalist daemon warp crow nowadays in the eye lol.

The Minotaur Chapter wipes the floor with Ultramarines. The Mechanicus never forgot/erased their favorite Primarch Perturabo from the records.

Well because they are all Alpharius lol

Are you saying you're alpharius?..

Lol absolutely not, if I'm a "fanboy" (or girl in my case) of anyone it's the Khan. With Russ being a close second.

No, Fulgrim thought he was one of the best. Much like his son's time and time again he has had to cheat to win. It's true he was definitely in the top 20 in the Galaxy in dueling, vs another primarch fighting a war is another story.