The kneesovertoesguy never recommended just jumping into the most advanced stages of his exercises though… The exercises he’s recommending “SCALE”. For example, If your knee can’t go over your toe yet using your full body weight then use resistance bands or a higher platform to help alleviate that pressure…. It might take months or even years. But the point is to take it slow, gradually and pain free. Eventually, like all exercises when performed correctly you will begin to see major results in your mobility.

Yea but recently, squat university said it is ok for your knees to pass your toes, he emphasizes ankle mobility a lot which generally puts your knees in front of your toes

I wonder if squat university is coming at it from a weightlifting angle and kneesovertoesguy from a sports/functional movement angle, which could account for the difference...

Right when it comes to what?...squatting? Or how to fix knee pain? And then knee pain in reference to what? Everyday life, squatting, walking, jumping or running? They are both right because they are usually talking knee pain and fixing it when performing different activities.

I watch and use both of their expertise. I’m 55 and feel better than I ever have thanks to these two gentlemen

Aarron from Squat University is actually helping me a lot with his exercises on youtube... just a few days and great improvement with my tendonitis/arthritis recent injury. As the British say: "the proof is in the pudding"...

But Ben Patrick doesn't say to full range squat first. He makes his clients do poliquen steps WITHOUT the slantboard for 10 weeks first. Then it's 10 weeks on poliquin. It sorted my knees out for sure. I like both KZfaq channels but please actually check out his programme before you say he's doing it wrong

Thanks for your take and thoughts in this space. I would encourage you to watch some more on knees over toes. He is not just popular for his great marketing, but for his perfectly scalable movements and results. His exercise movements have range of difficulty from young to old.

I feel like there is context that is missing here.

Ben and ATG don’t recommend knees over toes split squat or ATG squats for knee pain. They recommend short range of motion exercises for that which is similar to what squat university recommends. The specific movement they recommend is a backward sled pull

That is also my clinical experience - I start hip dominant squats and RDLs with my patients most of the time 🙂

Adam, I think you need more info on Ben Patrick in order to say if he is right or wrong. Obviously you are assuming. Sounds like you want him to be wrong? Now I am assuming....lol. Ben's system worked for me. You pretty much have to be your own judge and find out what works for you. And that applies to everything in life.

i often get kneepain when i eat unhealthy. its probably some sort of arthritis. so if you dont know why it hurts, my advise would be: eat only a few real foods (wholefood) that are safe to eat. then when the pain goes away implement suspicious foods step by step. for me the bad foods are mainly wheat and legumes, so i try to avoid these as often as i can.

some people are quad dominant and squat a little more upright with knees more forward some people are more hip glute dominant so they sit back a little more every body has his own best way not 1 way to squat some people get knee pain with alot of forward knee travel so then sit back a little more and some get lowerback pain from sitting back then push your knees more forward to stay more upright ive heard so many elite strenght guys telling different things and all of them squat 500+ pounds with both squat styles for me i always had knee pain and did highbar squats with alot of forward knee travel then i quitted squatting and after a while i wanted to be good at squats so i did the starting strenght squat style with the stronglifts app 5x5 3x a week and starting with only a 20kg barbell within 12 weeks i was squatting 100 kgs for 5 reps with zero knee pain but it felt super awkward first month to hold the bar in the lowbar position etc

sounds like you only watched a couple of kotg videos. don't blame you since he deleted/hidden a lot of his videos and put it behind a paywall. kotg promotes mainly these exercises: nordic curl, atg split squat(which you only progress if you don't encounter knee pain, if you do then you regress) and last exercise is the seated barbell goodmorning. I have watched a shitton of videos from mark rippetoe, squat university and kotg. but I have to admit that until last month I began to do the exercises instead of just watching videos. ill update mb in a month playlist?list=PLzRQn3IVEakIhHTmgR5MWZqhPeFv7c8V6

I don't know why this question is even out there. Squatting by leaning back and using hips is NOT a natural movement...period! NOW when you bring in individual biomechanics and the powerlifting rules for depth in the squat, then this changes. You should do a hip dominant squat if you can break parallel in a powerlifting meet and your individual mechanics favor it. That will allow you to lift the most weight, and put less stress on the knees, BUT a certain amount of deep quad-dominant squats are necessary to fully develop and strengthen the vastus medialis, which will help ensure your patella tracks properly and thus you avoid the problem of chondromalacia. I found this out after 20+ years of knee pain and inflammation.

Great content, we need more discussions like this, creating a community of movement practitioners from all walks of life. This is what I have to say on the recovery matter: -First eliminate factors that can mislead the treatment/progression results such as: -Do you use narrow socks in your wide minimalist shoes?.....Stop that! -Leather layered skin on areas such as under/outer big toe, heel, knees and legs can cause the skin that is our biggest organ to stiffen up preventing a reactive arch. This is common when there is minimal space in the shower area. difficulty standing on one leg while scrubbing. elastanewoolinsufficient The skin should be elastic as the water in the glass when the drop hits surface - When putting on your toe socks, correct toes spacers and minimalist shoes. - Bring your legs together, then sit with an upright tight core? - Rest right leg over the left while seated, Tilt the foot blade at the same time as u spread out the toes? *Importance of the upright tight core is in relation with the psoas muscle, If the psoas is tight it causes uneven tilting resulting in misalignment of the knee joint causing inwards heel that will cause inefficient shock absorption and stress the Achilles * (If you where floating in the air, fully relaxed,. Our foot arch would effortlessly tilt inwards because of the gravitation) This proves that the movement starts from the side of the hip. Giving the forward stepping leg a slightly lift and propel forwards so that the stepping leg align in front of the other leg with the minimum space between the knee caps during the transition. This let your legs stay under your hips, while tilting forward so that u can land on the (outside of the midfoot) when landing the step - (whole midfoot) sends the impact to - (inside toe ball + big toe release the shock absorption) for smooth weight shifting. From this "reactive state" its easier to walk faster, and move the neck to the sides to scoop surrounding without intercepting momentum resulting in more energy saved pr layer of movement added. From reactive state, its easier to cancel the landing of the step serving as a "6th sense" In case of threat such as nail, snake, glass detected. The mentality in the reactive stance is to move from A-B like a man on a mission, Carrying himself in a purposefully way. looking above eyebrows, with chin tucked in. This Walk becomes easier when giving up on trouser belt that cuts off great amount of blood circulation leaving u cold, big ass antenna phones in the pocket stopping fluidity. Its Recommended to use proper suspenders instead, then the arteries who carry o2 rich blood moves flows as it should. Its possible to mount phone case on suspenders mount, even adding additional pockets for your cards and cigarettes' (IMPORTANT NOTE )Regarding understanding our active/reactive mechanic): *Landing on the heel is mostly done when we enter a building/facility, such as home. When we have roof over our head, Our sub conscious know that the ground/floor is even. Risk of stepping on a shrapnel, snake ect has lowered. We feel safer, causing a upright posture, leaving the reactive posture. The distant between kitchen to living room is to short to bother forward tilting because it would only cause inefficiency to cancel the tilt that often. Rather humble & silent then prideful & determined in the mindset of the mover. I hope this puts an end to the heel cushion/ heel elevation debate. U have minimal chance saving yourself from shrapnel in the moment of heel impact. - Do you loosen the laces really good before the instep? if not you can misguide the arch and result in uneven toe brace alignment. I know 5 fingers KSO with the "smart/speed" lacing doesnt loosen up enough, so I had to cut the Velcro loop to make them regular laces again On minimalist boots (vivo gobi high 4) for example, It's important to consider skipping the first (closest to toe side) lace crossover, each lace goes vertical upwards to the next lace hole instead. Tendons, veins, nerves, support muscles for the front arch gets reduced circulation when pressured and causes slow response on the timing of arching in the moment of impact. Also skip the second top to THE TOP lace crossover, this is important when u want to make sure u get good blood flow even if u where sitting (preventing bottleneck). This helps a great amount with the mobility not only for the uneven terrain, but to form the arch in the moment of landing the step. - If you where to tighten up the laces all the way you would not be able to sense timing of the different foot arches, I am suddenly more likely to land with my heel further away from my hips causing imbalance in the weight alignment. The shoe dictates rather than me stepping my natural gait. making the calves work easier by turning shoulders/ hips. Use the assist of the hand arch the moment front step side arm passes the hips (same time hip turning and rotating out the hand wrist so that the person Iam walking towards see my palms. When my left backfoot lift itself to land in front, I will simultaneously show my knuckles instead of palms by rotating the hand wrist, when all 4 knuckles show themselves when crossing right hip. From here I must hinder my hand wrist rotating to far inwards causing my arms swinging like a lateral window viper. I simply raise my index finger, so the rest of my fingers raises and follows along in order causing a momentum shift that helps the right arm to travel forward). The key is to align hand wrist, elbow and shoulder. The thumb should be separated from the other fingers in the same way as the big toe is separated from the other toes to form sloped mountain. This gives stability in the pushup, as well as the squat a minor spread with the fingers will help the arm move the same amount backwards as forward.

I think the deep atg squats can be problematic for si joint pain. I think knees over toes is fine for knees tho. I prefer sissy squats and regular slant board squats because of the angle you’re put in and you’re able to really hit quads and that vmo with a good mind muscle connection. Something I can’t do without because I lack proper mobility or my build idk. Just I don’t think many people have the correct angle/ form usually which is why the knees over toes thing is still so highly debated. You can train knees over toes but only when quad is truly prime mover if you’re feeling it in the joint and it’s in pain you’re doing it wrong. I think we need to focus on what these two camps have in common which is aiming to improve “pain free movement”. Neither recommend picking the scab or working through pain. Body feedback is king. But, the lunge thing torquing on them si joints is still not wise to me. Single leg movements should be used sparingly imo.

Oh, KZfaq. I think Schröeinger’s cat can help us here. Thanks for sharing you expertise as a chiropractor.

Opinions are like ass holes, everyone has one.

I can see how box squat is easy on my knees compare to regular squat. Knee over toes would get me a new pair of knees, which I am not interested.

It seems obvious to me that, if you have knee pain, you should avoid straining your knees and fix the problem first. Being fit enough to do squats both ways repeatedly with 50 lbs plates (for work, not for fun), I find it is best to keep the knees behind the toes, but not too far behind. Don't you adjust your bicycle seat to keep the knees just about over the toes on the down stroke and not in front of them?

Can chiropractors treat plantar fascitis, shin splints and bicep tendonitis?

McGill is my hero!

I’d trust knees over toes he has a more mindful experience your body slowly and how it is meant to be approach. Grounded. His passion came deep from within.

Nice ringing tone!thanks doc you are becoming funnier as you grow . .........!

squat university for the win

Squat University is the best channel on KZfaq.

Uhhh I am gonna side with the guy who can dunk and do the splits pain free….the proof is in the pudding

Knees over toe guy has more research behind him

You can't stop people from calling you... THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF KZfaq, as you say yourself. You just SHOOT IT AGAIN and cut the video for the benefit of the youtube audience. Magic.