Who really pays the most taxes? | Phil Magness | Just Asking Questions, Ep. 23

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Күн бұрын

Economist and author Phil Magness debunks a recent 'New York Times' piece and shoddy academic work about the rich and their taxes.
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How much do billionaires really pay in taxes?
"Today, the superrich control a greater share of America's wealth than during the Gilded Age of Carnegies and Rockefellers," said Gabriel Zucman in a recent New York Times opinion piece entitled, "It's Time to Tax the Billionaires."
Zucman is an economist at the Paris School of Economics and the University of California, Berkeley, and a frequent collaborator with superstar economist Thomas Piketty, author of the extremely influential book on wealth inequality, Capital in the Twenty-First Century.
But today's guest, Phil Magness-an economic historian, author, and the David J. Theroux Chair in Political Economy at the Independent Institute-says the work of Piketty and his circle of inequality-obsessed colleagues is deeply flawed and sometimes outright deceptive. He points out that billionaires do pay taxes…a lot of taxes. And the inequality literature is riddled with errors and bad statistics.
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Just Asking Questions: Billionaires and Taxes
01:38 Unpacking the Misleading Tax Rate Graphs
06:38 The Political Motivations Behind Misleading Tax Narratives
15:39 Analyzing the Impact of Tax Credits on Lower-Income Earners
22:32 The Real Tax Burden: A Closer Look at Wealthy Americans' Contributions
27:05 Countering Piketty's Inequality Data With Accurate Accounting
34:58 The Practical Problems With a Wealth Tax
40:04 Piketty's Inequality Narrative and Its Flaws
48:50 Global Financial Transparency and Taxation Proposals
54:40 The Moral and Economic Case Against High Taxation
57:48 Listener Q&A: Defending the Show's Title

Пікірлер: 88

@user-hl8tq8uw2b 20 күн бұрын

I 100% agree with financial transparency. Let's start with State, Local and Federal government spending! After all, all the levels of government don't come any where near the fiduciary accountability legally required of companies today.

@mwwhited 20 күн бұрын

Warren just wants more money to spend at a government level with no regard for the economy. If the “billionaires” were required to pay uncapitalized gains on wealth the markets would liquify. The vast majority of the wealth at the top end is unrealized gain in market value. If they were forced to close positions to pay taxes on those “gain” the total capitalization of those businesses would drop dramatically. The only thing holding up share price is the “HODL” positions. Warren has also made it clear she has no interest in reducing spending. She just wants more money to transfer and spend.

@MadShenans 20 күн бұрын

Phil is a boss. A true hero

@THATMOFODIRT 19 күн бұрын

“I have never understood why it is ‘greed’ to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.” -Thomas Sowell

@andybrice2711 19 күн бұрын

I think it's a question of how much you "earned" that money, and how much the success of a business was dependent on decades of public investment in civil infrastructure. Defence, roads, a power grid, an educated populace, a police and justice system protecting your intellectual and physical property. Would Jeff Bezos have been able to build Amazon in Somalia? I doubt it. When someone becomes rich, I think it's reasonable to argue that a large part of their success is due to the infrastructure around them. And they deserve to pay a fair amount towards that infrastructure. We can of course debate what's a fair rate. But I think most people would agree it's at least a tax which is not regressive.

@THATMOFODIRT 18 күн бұрын

@@andybrice2711 Was the wealth stolen or was it the result of mutual transactions using the same public investment, resources, populace available to all? Lets use you for example: Are there people who are not as wealthy as you? Have you stolen your wealth or have you earned it? Regardless of your answer, Our board of wealth management declares that you have an excess beyond Our limits therefore We are going to redistribute it accordingly.

@ryanyoung3343 18 күн бұрын

How much you earned that money is solely dependent on if people buy your product or service. Nothing else. If no one buys, you go out of business. If a little people buy often you can make a little bit of money. If whole countries buy from you then you clearly have a product that people determine is more valuable then the money they have. Every sale you bring in has tax with it, every paycheck you write has tax paid. Every dollar of income you earn has tax with it. The systems companies use are paid for in every step on the buying process. It does not matter if you are rich or poor.

@pratikmohapatra9836 18 күн бұрын

@@ryanyoung3343 its never that "black or white"....even if Thomas Sowell might think it is

@ElGeecho 17 күн бұрын

@@andybrice2711 , this sounds reasonable, but I worry it is a Field and Fortress argument. You might support a minimalist state, but lots of people who emphasis the rich paying their fair share support far more extensive programs of taxation and control of the economy. I don't think, "what about roads?" is a good argument in support of those more extensive taxation regimes.

@matthewk87 16 күн бұрын

@3:20 - The first thing I notice is that they are comparing dissimilar things. On one hand they are using the bottom half of income earners. On the other hand, instead of using the top 400 income earners, instead they are looking at assets held. This is very deceptive, but it a common tactic we see, conflating wealth and income as if the two are the same.

@yont8566 20 күн бұрын

Great convo on a nuanced subject. Thanks, really enjoyed listening!

@kreynolds1123 20 күн бұрын

Income tax, corporate tax, payroll tax. They are a facad. Production taxes can only be paid because there is profit from a sale. And as such, the cost is always passed onto a consumer. Don't believe me? Explain why corporations pay more interest on corporate bonds on equally risked tax free municipal bonds? Yes explain to me why corporations pay higher rates to pay the bond holders taxes? And stocks complete with bonds on yield/risk bases so corporations need to also indirectly pay the cost of taxes through higher rates to its investors. Lastly ill ask, If companies are paying the cost of their investor's taxes, who is paying the companies to pay these cost? All taxe cost are embedded in in the cost consumers pay, indirectly as embedded production tax, or expressly as a consumption tax. Taxing produces muddies the lens through which we vew taxation, and lets politicians pull the wool tricking them into thinking someone else is paying the cost of government. And worse yet, production taxes embedding their cost into production chases jobs out of the country.

@randallkelley3600 20 күн бұрын

No, no ,no, corporate money is magic and we can tax it as much as we want without any negative consequences.

@kreynolds1123 20 күн бұрын

@@randallkelley3600 😒 its sad that so many are trained to think like that without applying any common sense.

@kylewatson5133 19 күн бұрын

Taxation is morally bankrupt. Milton was polite and just called it bad means - but it truly is financial rape, and rape is rape.

@michaellowe3665 20 күн бұрын

Liz puffing the vape on video is just the ultimate don't give a fuck look.

@jeran881 14 күн бұрын

So everything is fine. Nothing to see here. Keep the course and we will all be rich soon.

@stevenw5013 18 күн бұрын

Love Phil

@Mr.Witness 14 күн бұрын

Puffing a 50 mg vape is insane , no one should ever use anything above 3 mg nictoine

@karthikboyareddygari568 11 күн бұрын

Excellent interview, looking forward to sending this to progressive/socialist friends when they bring up Piketty

@michaellowe3665 20 күн бұрын

Make the capital gains rate the same as the income tax rate. Then, give every taxpayer a single deduction for themselves and each dependent. Everyone's taxes would be immediately easy to calculate. It would unburden low income people and eliminate the cost of compliance. Every year, congress could just argue about the rate and amount of the deduction. They then get no other manipulation tools.

@andybrice2711 19 күн бұрын

But then how would I selectively audit my political opponents as punishment?

@michaellowe3665 19 күн бұрын

@@andybrice2711 entrapment.

@ryanyoung3343 18 күн бұрын

Capital gains is not income. They should not be taxed the same. Income is a risk free investment of time. Capital gains is a risky investment of the money you made form your income. You are not garenteed to make any money from investments.

@michaellowe3665 18 күн бұрын

@ryanyoung3343 The difference in the rates is what wealthy people use to manipulate their income. They call their income capital gains to reduce their tax burden. People who own or run companies have this advantage while everyone who works for them is stuck at a higher income rate. You can't possibly claim that all capital gains carry the same risk. Investments vary greatly in risk, yet there is only one capital gains rate. Some jobs have an extremely high risk of injury or death, too. The people who take those jobs aren't taxed differently because they have higher risk. It's all income, and sitting on you ass income shouldn't get a special tax break over actual labor.

@taylorhickman84 14 күн бұрын

"the tax burden on lower income earners is more in the neighborhood of 11 to 12 percent" as a former "low income" person who used the EITC I can tell you that is nonsense.

@suppertime-qj1nt Күн бұрын

FICA alone is a 15.3% tax on your first dollar.

@__________5737 20 күн бұрын

No one pays more taxes than high incoming W2 earners (doctors for instance). It is not a debate. Capital gains should be tiered. Simple. Closed the numerous loop holes (not simple).

@michaellowe3665 20 күн бұрын

A flat tax with a deduction per person would meet all the inequality adjustment goals and make the cost of compliance much lower. The capital gains and regular tax rate should be the same, so people who own corporations don't have the benefit of being able to put their income in a different column to avoid taxes.

@chriflu 18 күн бұрын

@@michaellowe3665 This is exactly what I have been thinking for decades would be the best solution: A flat tax of x% (where x would need to be quite high, but hear me out) combined with a tax credit that is calculated as y% of the total tax income of the state the previous year divided by the number of recipients (children would count half and their parents/legal guardians would get that portion of the tax credit as vouchers that could be redeemed only for education, children's healthcare etc.). Note that for people who earn less than the resulting tax credit, this would also work as a UBI of sorts, however, a UBI that kind of self-regulates depending on economic conditions. At the same time, I would abolish the welfare state, completely privatize education and healthcare, abolish all government subsidies, hand-outs and the like etc., and make basic health and disability insurance mandatory, but private.

@ElGeecho 17 күн бұрын

@@michaellowe3665 , capital gains tax rates are a deliberate choice to encourage long term investments. Lots of countries tax long term capital gains at lower rates and some don't tax them at all. I think New Zealand for example has a 0% long term capital gain rate. It's definitely not just putting your income in a different "column", it's taking it in a different form with different implications for the economy. There's room to disagree with this approach to taxing long term capital gains, but I think it should be discussed on those terms. I do not believe it is accurate or honest to portray capital gains taxes as though they are "loopholes" and the left is far too prone to this.

@michaellowe3665 17 күн бұрын

@@ElGeecho I'm not really suggesting rasing capital gains tax. I'm suggesting that we lower income tax to match. That too would encourage investment. More people would invest themselves in a job if the government took less of their income and they had less opportunity to live off of what others pay in taxes.

@LibertarianJRT 20 күн бұрын

I have enjoyed this conversation. Keep up the good work.

@EricSmith9000 18 күн бұрын

Unfortunately, I don't think we can assume good intent.

@weibullguy 16 күн бұрын

I get that Libertarians tend to be am unprofessional bunch, but maybe try not smoking during the interview. It;s not a good look and speaks volumes about the quality of leadership at Reason.

@davidhealdjr.513 20 күн бұрын

If these "tax the rich" folks were consistent, they'd demand we all be taxed to the point where we make no more than $395 a year.

@allgodsmyth7318 20 күн бұрын

Phil says taxes are probably too high. I disagree. The government should tax the bleep out of each and every one of us to pay for the spending they are doing. If that's 100%, so be it. Only then, when Americans realize that they are better stewards of their own money than the government, will we have a shot of enough voters electing politicians who actually reduce government spending.

@MadShenans 20 күн бұрын

Atlas Shrugged vibes

@randallkelley3600 20 күн бұрын

The before and after graphs reminds me of the surface temperature data set pre vs post adjustments.

@samstevens7172 20 күн бұрын

What person doesn’t know the common pronunciation of “Carnegie “? As in Carnegie Hall?

@beltsandedman 19 күн бұрын

I've heard both pronunciations, I think it's a to-mayto, to-mahto situation.

@RadDadisRad 21 күн бұрын

Most wealthy people keep their wealth in businesses or in a trust and not in their name. All the money they earn is through a business so not on a personal level. Spending is then done through the business so it’s considered business expenses. Any good financial advisor can explain all this. Problem is you can’t do this from the “employee” level of a company as far as I’m aware.

@mac.swanson 20 күн бұрын

You can actually. You just set up an LLC and have your employer make your paychecks out to the LLC. Then you "pay" yourself from your LLC which is considered a business expense, and therefore a write-off. Disclaimer: I am not a financial advisor and am not giving out financial advice lol

@ryanyoung3343 18 күн бұрын

This depends on a lot of things. But what you just described is considered misrepresentation of expenses, and to some degree tax evasion. A business can not just write off a persons earned wages. Even an LLC.

@athanatic 20 күн бұрын

"Just Asking Question" sounds like Tucker... "Just Getting Answers" would be more encouraging to ever watch this...

@jayl271322 20 күн бұрын

They’re planning to change it to “Just Missed the Point”.

@macgp44 16 күн бұрын

FINALLY someone comes to the defense of our heroes, the beleaguered billionaires! Thank you reason tv.

@donaldsikorski8907 20 күн бұрын

Your corporations who record record profits pay little or no tax thats even equivalent to what they should pay. Then on top of that they take government welfare as a subsidies. Theu also take advantage of low consistent interest rates to buy back their own stock and satisfy their own shareholders. Then they pay fat cats that sit on the board of directors who do nothing millions of dollars and golden when they bail out. Existing tax law needs to b enforced or changed to levels thst are fair compared to whst a avg American worket pays. The obscenely already wealthy already benefits from trillion dollar tax breaks and hide any income in stocks and companies who show no actual income that can b taxed as regular income bc of laws that lobbyists write for the rich . Those things need to b changed but we are talking about the ruling class and corporate greed fuels the illusion on the dumbed down American public. Same thing happens when they promote their philanthropy but in every case donations to charity are a write off and benefits only them. Wtf?

@ExPwner 20 күн бұрын

Wrong. The “record profits” idiocy has been refuted over and over again. And no one should pay any taxes but they factually do pay taxes. Go peddle your leftist nonsense elsewhere

@DisposableSupervillainHenchman 20 күн бұрын

@donald You’re leaving a logical comment on a ReasonTV video. So naturally you’re gonna get attacked by libertarian wankers who love blowing the ultra wealthy. They think the elites have been suffering. 🙄

@LibertarianJRT 20 күн бұрын

He who funds a thing, controls a thing. Since the wealthy fund government, they set the government to work in their favor. The problem is not the wealthy, it is the government that uses the wealthy.

@DisposableSupervillainHenchman 20 күн бұрын

@@LibertarianJRT You’re a dope if you think the ultra wealthy don’t own the government. Truly imbecilic.

@donaldsikorski8907 20 күн бұрын

@LibertarianJRT u got that totally backwards. They fund government and the same donor and ruling class control the things they own. Bc of citizens united people can buy and fund their next president

@billhunt533 20 күн бұрын

It would be great if you "just asked questions" of Gabriel Zucman and Thomas Piketty, and gave them the chance to defend both their work and Magness's criticism thereof. Is the idea that the NYT piece ACTUALLYS features shoddy work the opinion of Reason or just Magness? Perhaps a debate allowing both sides a chance to argue their points and refute their criticisms would be a more balanced way of addressing this topic? Maybe less vaping next time as well.

@riahynanevamynd7698 20 күн бұрын

You were doing great with your comment, good questions , until the vaping bit. Not only is it irrelevent to the conversation it is rude and unnecessary. She can vape if she likes. All the old rules regarding etiquette/decorum are fading away. Times are changing, as they always do.. New things are on the way... don't sweat the small stuff

@billhunt533 20 күн бұрын

@@riahynanevamynd7698 I don't think it's rude, but it does come off as a bit unprofessional.

@taylorhickman84 14 күн бұрын

@@riahynanevamynd7698 the vaping was not a good look, how is it rude to suggest not doing it?

@SK-hj8ss 14 күн бұрын

Stop interrupting and stop talking over your guests! I want them to complete their thoughts and I want to hear want they have to say! You guys whipsaw them all over the place. JFC.

@mjl.9-19 20 күн бұрын

People know ... I've not had to pay taxes ever, as a "poor" Boomer. I can see it, but not without an emotional brain bubble that says Trump pays NO tax. The psy-op works.

@massimo.modica 20 күн бұрын

No one can say that they deserve to be a billionaire.

@jayl271322 20 күн бұрын

Why not?

@ryanyoung3343 18 күн бұрын

Okay bot. Care to explain why someone like Jeff B. Can not say they earned their billions? Or bill gates?

@chrisocony 18 күн бұрын

Our government is not that bad. The IRS is not that bad. In fact, they are pretty fucking good, and quite on a leash. Good boy! The US has the strongest economy, the strongest military, and the strongest culture in the world. With no government, there is no way that would have happened. Yet with Libertarians, you would think we were living with a boot on our neck.

@ryanyoung3343 18 күн бұрын

Or let people keep the money they earned, the government did not wake up every morning to do my job. So why should they have a piece of the pie before I ever spend it?

@chrisocony 17 күн бұрын

@@ryanyoung3343 Go move to Somalia or Haiti and not worry about the government taxing you.