"Threaten me again and I'll have you thrown into the sea." - Tyrion "You might be disappointed by the results. Storms come and go, the big fish eat the little fish... and I keep on paddling." - Varys

Given that Varys regarded him as a foe he enjoyed rather than feared, I'd put the Spider ahead. Especially given how few times Varys was caught off-guard by something compared to the times Petyr was 🤔

Lol, I know I'm bringing up the forbidden season, but I recall a small moment between Varys and Tyrion. "What does that scroll say?" "It's a sealed, confidential letter to [Jon Snow]." "So... what does it say?" "....nothing good."

Varys honestly feels omniscient sometimes in the books. I was so confused how he knew the letter Tyrion gave to Pycelle when he was trying to find out who was Cersi's informant.

Varys also has the huge disadvantage of being the official spymaster. He is called the spider, and people know to be cautious around him. I don't think anyone really knows how expansive little fingers ring is. They know he is a cunning business man and knows things. But I imagine not being a known spy helps more than it limits him. You giving up something when getting help from the master of coin seems a lot less risky than getting something from the master of spies.

Petyr is more of an extremely skilled manipulator and liar who have people close to him who can help him achieve his goals, where Varys is more of an actual spy with an entire spy network across Westeros and Essos. I’d say in this situation Varys is a better spy

I think we have to give it to varys just off the fact that he's working with a plan and has to keep dealing with random occurrences that speed up slow down or even stop his plans. meanwhile little finger doesn't have a plan he just does whatever he wants with the goal of using the chaos to his benefit. for example because littlefinger doesn't;t care about anything he can just leave anywhere in chaos without caring, meanwhile varys is shackled to kingslanding even when he's being hunted as a traitor because he needs to be there for his plans to succeed. in short littlefinger is plating with all the agency and freedom meanwhile varys has to deal with everything with in a time constraint and he's still surfing on Littlefinger.

Not sure how you put a question mark over the security. The very fact that Littlefinger’s spies can all be flipped makes him lose that round badly

Remember your "Kingdom under Littlefinger" vid? What if he and Varys found a compromise and joined forces? How formidable would their combined spy network be?

You guys never miss! Can’t believe Varys just kills all of his little birds when they grow older. As if cutting their tongues out wasn’t cruel enough.

I have a feeling that this two are actually secret allies in the books

Littlefinger is impressive to even rival Varys, given that he's ostensibly minister of coin, having arrived on the King's Landing scene decades after Varys did and thus has had far less time to cultivate his powerbase. All that being said...there's a reason Varys is the standard to which all spymasters must ultimately be measured against.

Why didn't Tywin Lannister try to raise Joffrey himself if he was so important to tywins plan? And frankly, Rob Starks entire rebellion could have been avoided if Tywin just said sorry and sent the stark girls home. I know it's Tywin and he'd never do that. But man, for someone who is so smart, Tywin Sucks at diplomacy.

Maybe a sequel in honor of HotD with Larys Strong VS the White Worm

Varys looks like Charlie Brown and that automatically means he wins by pity

I think the real difference between the two and why I'd also agree Littlefinger is the better spy is explained in the "chaos is a ladder" scene. While Varys is ruthless and will do some pretty despicable things to achieve his goals, he still has SOME moral scruples that he adheres to. His goals are, largely, good-natured, and he plays a patient game to make sure he's dotting his Is and crossing his Ts and not doing anything to truly make things worse. Littlefinger, on the other hand, is a complete sociopath that will literally delve the world into a Yugoslav style civil war if it meant getting a promotion. Theres no limit to what he's willing to do, and his MO of creating chaos to advance his personal position makes him much more unpredictable.

I just wunna say i love this channel! Im a major GOT nerd and have watched MANY a GOT videos(seriously its probably in the 100's by now..) and your channel is definitely one of my favourites!

Best fighter Jon snow vs joaha mormont pls...

In the show Littlefinger exposes Ros as a double agent working for Varys (and lets Joffrey use her as target practice). This might show Varys’s limitations when dealing with non child spies and/or show that Littlefinger has decent security in his spy ring if he detected a double agent.

You Should do Ned Stark vs Tywin Lannister next, comparing Ideology, Strategy, Politics, Family and the Loyalty they inspire

It's most important to look at how they both met their ends. Varys sloppily tried to turn Dany's inner circle against her and towards Jon. Only to be betrayed by his friend, Tyrion. While Petyr was outmaneuvered by Sansa, who he spent 8 seasons grooming as his protege/bride. It's definitely Petyr. Based on the show, at least. Varys taking out Kevan Lannister in the books is probably the most boss moment in ADWD.

Can you imagine if these two tentatively teamed up and shared resources! They would be feared.

What if Ned declined to leave a ND he send Robb to take his place as the hand of the king

14:29 wait, who's to say Varys kills off his little birds when they reach maturity? there's no reason they cant still surve a purpose - say, raise new little birds. Besides, their loyalty is already as guaranteed as could be

Finished My exams today needed this great video as always

Littlefinger is definitely agile and nimble in the books. He tosses the famed dagger end over end catching it, and deftly avoids a bowl of porridge thrown by sweetrobin.

Personally Little finger has rapidly become my favorite character. He’s not a good man but he’s by far the most entertaining for me to read/watch and I’m always interested in seeing what he’s scheming. Varys is certainly a spider, the master of whisperers; everyone knows what he is before they even see him, they know who they are dealing with without even knowing him. Petyr on the other hand is the devil, people trust him, they give him everything on the promises spoken by a forked tongue. I’m my opinion I’m far more terrified of Petyr, he’ll have you calling him friend before you even feel the dagger in your back.

An excellent point-counterpoint discussion. There are a few points I'd like to make that would have turned this back to Varys's advantage, despite improving Littlefinger's performance. Spycraft: This would still be an advantage for Varys, but Littlefinger is no slouch either. After his humiliating defeat to Brandon Stark, Littlefinger dedicated himself to knifework instead. In Book 1, Eddard notices Littlefinger is constantly twirling that dagger with a mastery that would be truly deadly. However, it only succeeded because of Littlefinger's single identity as the man who is only too happy to serve. It let him get so close he put the knife to Eddard's throat (Sorry, Ned). Varys, retains his big advantage because he can disguise himself so well. Even a Lord Regent wouldn't be safe, catching a crossbow bolt from a common serving man who turned out to be Varys in disguise (Sorry, Kevan). 1 Point to Varys. Intel & Spy Quality: I would disagree on the outcome of this round, but only because fans of the books and show assume ALL of Varys's spies are children. It seems we've all forgotten that Illyrio Mopatis and Ser Jorah Mormont were also parts of Varys's spy network. Those little birds across the Narrow Sea would need handlers to maintain their codependency/loyalty. Handlers would be older and more astute at interpreting the intel they're given, sending it back to Varys. However, even if someone discovered Varys used children, they'd just be more likely to overlook the handlers and other assets like Ser Jorah. Meanwhile, Littlefinger's spies are varied but capable of disloyalty and always willing to serve new masters if the pay is better (RIP Ros). 1 Point to Varys Network Security: This would still be a tie because Varys relied on a sickening codependency in his little bird while Littlefinger was capable of giving compromised or disloyal assets Early Retirement (like a Bladerunner). 1 point to Varys, 1 point to Littlefinger. Political Influence: Littlefinger does sweep this round based on the show and current place in the books. He had his fingers on the scales of Westeros's entire economy, he had brokered the Lannister-Tyrell Alliance, and then brought the Vale into his influence. Big point to Littlefinger, based on the current placement of the show. HOWEVER, this is discounting all the little details that indicate there may be another Aegon (a FAegon, if you will) who may have landed in the Stormlands as part of Varys's scheme to put a Targaryen (or Blackfyre) on the Iron Throne all along. 1 point to Littlefinger (possible point to Varys) So the score is Littlefinger: 2 and Varys: 3 (possibly 4) The outcome of their respective spy networks opposing one another is far from certain. Despite his disadvantage, Littlefinger could still pull out a win by relying heavily on his vast economic resources while Varys would be dependent on what is effectively a grass-roots movement-version of a spy network.

My interpretation of Varys, is that he sees himself as a means to an end, and while he may have misgivings sometimes (like killing Kevyn), he never lets them take priority over the bigger picture. Great vid btw 👍

Awesome 👏 can’t remember if i asked for this one but exited anyway

I think it's hard to compare their spy networks since they serve a completely different purpose. Varys' birds have a lot bigger reach and will provide him with information all over the place. It is serving Varys but Varys ultimately uses them as information for someone else, to make that other person with power never be surprised and never be on the back foot, ready to exploit weakness. He himself doesn't wield political power but Aegon does. And I think in large parts due to Varys and his little birds he will take King's Landing from Cersei in TWoW. Varys is also very much playing the long game, waiting for Aegon to come of age. Littlefingers spies on the other hand only serve Littlefinger and themselves. They are by nature also selfish and ambitious just like Littlefinger himself and might burn him at any moment. They are however more powerful and proactive. But they also only work where Littlefinger wants them to. If a threat emerges from a point Littlefinger doesn't expect he's very much on the back foot. For example, Aegon's conquest of King's Landing might fuck over his plans outside of the vale significantly cause that's a hard one to see coming. Littlefinger is an opportunist through and through to the point where he will also create his own opportunities for himself but I think his constantly play with fire will eventually get him burned. Varys is playing the far safer game

13:00 OH MY GOOOOD!!! LMAO "Before ring ring became scroll scroll..." Jesus Christ. 14:50 You're a glutton for punishment. You KNOW I wasn't gonna let that one slide.

Little finger caused many wars and deaths, Varys wrote a few letters and got burned at the stake, little finger was killed by Arya, but he made so many effective moves first

Of course, we all know Mace the Ace is the real mastermind behind it all

At 16:47 you wasted a GOLDEN opportunity to show a clip of Tyrion at his trial in Season 4 over that delivery of "I wish". "I wish I was the monster you think I am!" But that's just me nitpicking. As always, great video, and I fully agree with your case and argument, you nailed it and convinced me. You guys rock.

Great video again guys ! Liam i hope you stopped the little birds from spying on you who knows who sent them? Stay vigilant!

If I was a king or hand I’m taking Varys as my spy master strictly bc I don’t want Littlefinger trying to stab me in the back every two seconds

Keep in mind that Varys has been playing the game of thrones longer than little finger so he has more experience. Though spy wise Varys is an internet hacker who has no problem spending a whole year stealing your identity. While little finger could easily fit as a spy in a James Bond movie.

I feel saying Varys only has is little birds isn't fair. We know he had Jorah spying on Danny for him. I feel that is enough to say he most likely has other spys who aren't little boys out there than just Jorah

I’d say Varys he has them all over the world of game of thrones and a lot of them are very influential. Little finger has his eyes set on the 7 kingdoms and everything going on there which is more of a hindrance in this match up. Also can you do a match up of if there was a free for all of all the houses who would come out of the destruction.

Lil finger literally set all plots in motions. He got my vote

And I have another question on Tywin. He only cares about benefiting the Lannister name right? So.... Why not instead of marrying Cersei to Robert Baratheon. Marry her to the Tyrells and fuse the families together, or marry to the starks? I know Tywin tried in show but I mean.... Do it when Cersei is young and hasn't committed twincest yet. If the Tyrells and Lannisters were one house that would be a very great prize for house Lannister.

What if Jon snow was raised by Ashara dayne in Dorne (as payment for Ned having killed her brother)

As one of the people looking forward to this video I'm happy with the results and breakdown of what makes a good spy master, I hate how they ended both characters in the TV show and hope to get the books to correct that, totally agree with the choice of best player of the game of thrones too since doing anything results in death most of the time a wait for everyone else to die strategy does start to look appealing, now you just need to make videos explaining who else is on your small council.

What if the white walkers attacked during Roberts rebellion

Also, who are you going to suspect more? The royal copper counter, or the guy whose job is to collect information

Varys has a king landing in the stormlands, feel like he played the game better.

The editor knows ball

You appear to believe Varis has no other spys than his little birds , Varis assign all data to his birds to keep to others secret but jonas is not a boy or mute so there are known examples.

Sick

I haven't read the books...but have learned a lot of lore here on YT. I don't see how Varys isnt the obvious answer. I believe you guys "out-thought" yourselves and came to the controversial decision...rather than the one right in front of you 😅

I'm curious who you think would win between Jaime Lannister and Robert Baratheon. I think it could be a good match

What if Dynarius Targaryen simply married joffrey or tommen and took her dragons with her?

Varys vs Tywin who's the better planner?

20 good men💀

Cat said it early on Petyr is smart but not wise

Bloodraven negs both of them

Do you think the last category could go to Varys when his goal is realized? If the invasion is successful Varys will be the only one of them to put a king on the throne. Also Varys has survived and thrived in four separate political factions (Mad King, Bobby B, Lannisters, and the Targaryen Reboot)

Ned stark vs Tywin who is better at securing family future. Starks and Lannisters are rivals.

I think anyone can be good at this with the right knowledge I mean Tyrion sets up his own in a few months

HOW does this chjannel only have 18k subscribers

I think house Baelish comes from beyond the wall, not bravos.. this has nothing to do with the video just sending it into the ether

Also why doesnt Tywin punish Cersei? Since Cersei screws up Tywins plans more often then anyone. She's even worse then Joffrey!

Littlefingers spies as you said they are GROWN and have the inclination of “providing false truths” if it is in their best interest, so I’d still give Varys the edge

Where’s the Ned Starrk video?

I think while little finger is the better player of the game, with the manipulation and ambition and cunning. Varys has to be the better spymaster, his network seems larger and more dependable. Littlefinger’s spies work for him for the money and out of fear, which often means they are more likely to fold and turn on him if they get a better offer (like with Ros when Varys recruits her)

Varys. Period. It is not even debatable. Both are geniouses but Varyses motives are far less cold and less personal. Littlefinger is ruled by ego, desire, frustration, malice, revenge and ambition. Varys is simply following... a long term plan. He is castrated, and lived trough far worse than Littlefinger, it is not far fetched to believe he would sacrifice himself for his goals and his friend Illyrio. Also, littlefinger is quicker to underestimate his enemies, pawns and allies alike. It will be his downfall in the books as well.

Honestly to be fair Varys had a lot more time to play then little finger. If little finger had the same amount of time as Varys I'm pretty sure Varys would have everything he wants by now

Varys..he's the wildcard...

I got it! Whos the worst spy master?

What if Brann was evil

I need a better how the Lanisters could win or how the Targaryans could have won.

What if Varys found out about Jon being Raegars son when Ned got him from the tower of joy

Littlefinger is better at literally everything. Only a casual would think otherwise

"was"

Varys is the dark horse of GOT. Varys all the way.

Second rate at least

yooo

Tywin V. Olenna for who is the better head of Household

To be honest, I would reverse the results of this video and the "Best Player" video. Littlefinger is the lesser Spymaster, whilst being the better player of the game. I will also note I have a massive bias against Littlefinger as one of the most detestable people in the books/show (Yes Ramsey and the Mountain are worse but I detest Littlefinger). Any character who will deliberately ruin the nation for their own enrichment is a monster and he is probably responsible for as many deaths as anyone else in the whole AOIAF setting. I do hate him. (For the record the only character I despise more irrationally is Renly "never did anything right in his life" Baratheon). Still I hope I make sense. Amongst other things, one of the main differences between the 2 is that they are NOT playing the same game. Littlefinger is playing the game of "advancing my interests at all costs and the devil take the hindmost" approach. He sets up his resources in order to do this and so focuses on getting in with the nobles and utterly f******** up the finances of the realm to enrich himself. He is trying to accrue personal power and that is what he gains. I also think you overrate the access his brothels give him as they are for the most part a pretty passive sort of information gathering too. If the right people don't show up then he cannot get access to them that way. His merchants are a more active source of data but unless they are actively seeking things for him then they are also just another passive means of passing information on. Varys is scheming to a) keep the situation at a nice even boil whilst he gets Aegon into position, and b) gather information from a wide variety of sources in order to act when the moment is right. He is not trying to get power for himself and so he doesn't and this means he will not make enemies in the same way that Littlefinger does once he starts to gain power. He is trying to quietly get his enemies to screw themselves over whilst setting himself up to avoid suspicion. And his main spy network is perfectly set up to do that. I would also add that his little birds need not be a passive a network as you imply they would be. He sends them on missions to do key tasks for him, the assassination of Kevan Lannister being a prime example. And that one is pulled off even after he is out of the city. He is more than capable of sending them off to look into key players when he wants. He does not, it must be said, have quite the same immediate access to the highborn as Littlefinger but he has enough to be going on there and to make things happen when he needs to. Both are indeed good at both, and on their best days each can outwit the other, but I give the win to Varys and look forward to the day he personally leads Sansa to throwing Littlefinger through the moon door....... a man can dream right?

Don't worry Liam, I know you're not mad. But your plan do the kid isn't a good one. Parents tend to complain

Bran would win between little finger and varys.

Little finger is rich

Varis wins

Thom is better at everything except reading the narration. Love you Thom (u smarmy argument winning and only slightly less brilliant sounding git)

If this included season 8 neither would win…

Larys Feet-network is better than these guys

LF, the entire counsel wants him back including Jaime. No one liked Varys. Edit: Not surprising a YT nerd content creator wouldn’t think highly of social approval of their higher ups in someone’s ability to get their plans done.

I really think that Cersei should have been the mad queen and Not Dany. I also think that Dany should have won the game of thrones and in Tyrions final meeting, i think it should have been revealed that Tyrions birth wasn't what really killed the mom but the entire time Cersei just told everyone that was what killed her cause she blamed him.. and then Tyrion finally ends her like in the prophecy.

Varys.

Lf=typical manipulative politician Varys=cia director