Spoiler Warning for the novel Saturnine - Angron is the only one of the traitors to realise that the defenders of the Eternity wall space port have been sent there to die, they do not have the forces to defend it. Perty, Horus, Fulgrim, none of them recognise it but Angron still has enough honour to offer the defends a chance to surrender, to spare the lives that Dorn has thrown away. Very underrated moment by him.

I don't think that even a lore master like Rho can pull this one off...

Angron has the saddest story. Most deserving of his vengeance, justice, and Retribution. But not the greatest. 😞

If he had been found before the nails were implanted, Angron MIGHT have been one of the greatest primarchs.

Man, I wish GW would at least throw us an alternate history novella where we got Calmgron instead.

Honestly he did 100% get the shittiest deal outta all the primarchs lost his aura, lost his only family and the emperor literally just had to sent what like 30-40 custodies to help his army and bam loyal angron would still have the nails but fuck would be a way better turn out

"Successfully led" is an interesting way of saying his legion wanted to conect to him and took the abuse like a son trying to make it work with his alocholic physically abusive father

I think the best you can argue about Angron is that it wasn't his fault.

This is going to be difficult to defend

Angron saves Lorgar from being stomped by a titan Lorgar "saves" Angron from his own mortality much like how the Emperor "saved" him To quote an old movie "You didn't save my life you ruined my death" Angron doesn't even have the freedom to die on his own terms like Curze or Sanguinius yet never gave in like Mortarion

As much credit as I have to give Adnett for writing Papa Smurf in a way that actually made him interesting to me Aaron Dembski-Bowden did an even better job making a character who was previously just a murder machine into something genuinely sympathetic.

Can't wait for Wolf Lord Rho to cover the reason why the Lost Primarchs are the greatest. Primarch [Redacted] of the [Redacted] legions is the greatest Primarch due to his actions on [Readacted] where he and his legions [Redacted list of feats and timeline], thus cementing him as the greatest.

Don’t forget, he also was the only Primarch to see the Emperor for the tyrant slaver he was from day one.

Hey Mr Rho, thanks for being my driving material for years, love your channel, and the content is always amazing.

Angrons Perfect Son speech to Guilliman always makes you wonder what he would've been without the mutilation of the nails "What would you know of struggle, Perfect Son? Hnh? When have you fought against the mutilation of your mind? When have you had to do anything more than tally compliances and polish your armour?’ ‘Childish,’ Guilliman sighed, gesturing to the burning, dying city. ‘Does it really come down to this? So pitiably childish.’ ‘Childish? The people of your world named you Great One. The people of mine called me Slave.’ Angron stepped closer, chainswords revving harder. ‘Which one of us landed on a paradise of civilisation to be raised by a foster father, Roboute? Which one was given armies to lead after training in the halls of the Macraggian high-riders? Which one of us inherited a strong, cultured kingdom?’ Angron sprayed bloody spit as he frothed the words. ‘And which one of us had to rise up against a kingdom with nothing but a horde of starving slaves? Which one of us was a child enslaved on a world of monsters, with his brain cut up by carving knives?’ The two primarchs met again. Guilliman’s powered gauntlets should have easily deflected Angron’s chainswords, but the World Eater’s strength drove his brother back step by step. Chain-teeth sprayed from the weapons as eagerly as the saliva from Angron’s lipless slit of a mouth. ‘Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom that enslaves you, no matter that their armies overshadow yours by ten thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour.’ Guilliman parried, forced back further by the storm of Angron’s blows. He finally landed a glancing blow, his fist pounding across Angron’s breastplate. The chain of Desh’elika skulls shattered, bone shards scattering across the dirt. ‘You’re still a slave, Angron. Enslaved by your past, blind to the future. Too hateful to learn. Too spiteful to prosper.’"

I love how Big E literally had a party with Leman Russ. Drinking, fighting, eating, spear throwing. And yet he couldn't be bothered to help out Angron with his gladiators.

These pitches will only get harder and harder to sell moving forward!

"Is there truly a Primarch who has overcome as much as Angron?" Yes. Vulkan. He has overcome death itself. Like, 497 times. "Is there a Primarch who has had the odds so stacked against him, and yet still lived?" I'm not certain that I would define what Angron now has/is as 'living'.

Angron is the primarch I sympathize with the most. While they were weapons and tools to be used, he was the one treated the most like a thing. Magnus got screwed over the quickest, but Angron got screwed over the hardest.

Vulkan stands out as arguably the greatest primarch in Warhammer 40k, embodying the best qualities of humanity in a grimdark universe. His unparalleled compassion for common people sets him apart in a galaxy of indifference and cruelty. As a perpetual, Vulkan's immortality makes him an enduring beacon of hope. His mastery of craftmanship has produced some of the most powerful artifacts in the Imperium, while his physical strength rivals even Angron or Leman Russ. Yet it's Vulkan's leadership that truly shines - inspiring unwavering loyalty through example rather than fear or manipulation. Unlike many of his brothers, Vulkan never lost sight of why they fight. He's a strategic genius who values civilian lives, proving that empathy and military prowess aren't mutually exclusive. His moral compass remained true even as others fell to chaos or tyranny. In a setting where even demigods can be corrupted, Vulkan's incorruptible nature and dedication to humanity's protection make him a paragon of what a primarch should be. He's not just a great warrior or leader, but a great person - and that's what sets him above the rest.

im convinced angron was supposed to be magnus' backup in case magnus fell to chaos.

The Emperor spends time with Vulkan, Guilliman, and Lion but not with poor Angron. He doesn't even allow the War Hounds to help him because of his vision. Yet he explains to Rah that seeing the future doesn't mean it will happen.

Excellent perspective. Angron has been my favourite Primarch since I started following 40k for pretty much the same reasons you listed here. He did a lot of things pre-nails (and even some post-nails) that would suggest he was intended to be a caring individual. Like when he refused to kill his father figure, or even when he was first entered in the pits and killed who he had to as quickly and painlessly as possible. Especially since every other primarch trait has at least 2 counterparts, it's odd that only Vulcan is seen as truly caring. It also tracks why Big E just let him loose when he found him. He figured his programming would override the trauma he went through but Big E probably didn't know the extent the nails went to.

I think angron never truelly was allowed to show is true self the way the other did. I think angrin was completely justified in his turn to chaos and betray the emperor

These are so awesome, thanks.

The really want to hear your arguments for Mortarion and Corvus Corax. Tough days ahead😂

00:48 Yes! Sanguinius, the black rage, staying calm and cool when his bros were already acting Namekian before the heresy. Being an awesome guy when there's were other awesome guys around him, Favored by the Emperor even though he had the best qualities.

Im glad there isnt much time travel, but if there was, young Angron deserves rescue.

I would argue that if Angron had been able to become what he was meant to be (a healer or at least a paladin like figure similar to Sanguineous but focused on compassion) the heresy may not have happened. All of them represent an aspect of the emperor and given that he was the only one truly broken he was likely the missing piece that would have held it all together. Be it to provide arguments that may have swayed Horus or being the compassion that reminded the Primarchs of what they were fighting for. Vulcan’s only fault is his seeming inability to show the same compassion to xenos as he does humanity. I feel like Angron was meant to be the one more open to such. Any one of them missing would likely cause the downfall it just happened to be Angron. The one most likely to get them to connect with each other and see past there differences due to his empathic abilities.

I needed a good laugh. Thank you bro😂

What poor judgement from the Emperor to have taken Angron from his rebellion and war brothers instead of helping him. It would of been nothing for him to help his son at that moment and by doing so would of made Angron his most loyal son probably.

Great video. Didn't think you be able to make this good a argument for him.

"Father?" "Is it over?"

I feel that angron was originally meant to be the emperor's successor. Having the most humanity and care. And when the emperor realised what he had become, he lost hope with him and just sent him off to do what he could

Yeah the lore really needs to be updated here. Okay so Angron didn´t conquer his homeworld and was close to being slaughtered by the high riders. However the Emperor and his custodes where in orbit. Same with the War hounds. So why not just teleport them down and help Angron?

I imagine the Emperor was prepared to purge the whole legion if Angron didn’t stop slaughtering them

Baby Angron must’ve been quick!

The bastard of bastards, holding onto to the only form of honor he could. Defiance.

Russ was told to go soft on Angron, and easily led him into a trap that would have resulted in Angron being gunned down like a dog by average marines, not even a true warrior's death. Russ was able to exploit Angron's temper to a real victory, regardless of his feint to lure Angron in [did Russ not tell someone himself that Angron's weakness was his anger?] Even Lorgar told Angron it was the most decisive victory he had seen but Angron was too stupid to realise it. If Russ had wanted, the World Eaters would have ended that day, but pity stayed his hand. That, and he wasn't there on orders, more of a big brother to his smackie younger sibling. Although I agree, that Angron has a lot to over come and his fall is more of a tragedy than that of Magnus [he got what he deserved. daddy said don't and he did]

Haven't pressed play yet but you must of had a hell of a time trying to get this one done.

The problem is that he didn't overcome his obstacles. He was dragged down by them. Ultimately losing his humanity and becoming a deamon.

'' My Primarch, My liege, lord and father. First on the field of battle, and last to depart it. My mind has long shattered, and all I wanted and earned has long fallen to dust. The eightfold path has seen to that. Ever the infernal buzzing of the nails take my proudest moments along side him from me. But I allways reserve abit of those proud moments when I thread the same red sands as he does and I hear the howl of Samni'arius, or the roar of his chainaxe like gorefather of long lost millenia. So that in moments of inaction and rare clarity I hear the roars of victory, I see him spread his wings and raise his sword. I am not of Nuceria, none of us are. We all know the stories, we all know the deepest scar he bears. He should not be here. His bones should calmly lay at rest alongside some of the finest fighters to have graced the red sands, warriors worthy of laying beside him in honourable death, having earned the end they all wished for, on their terms. I would not begrudge him that. If half the stories about Asti, Larbadon, Onameus that we did find in records are true I would have been proud to have been a war hound and know that they fought to the last in defence of eachother. I fought with him from the moment of his rediscovery, I fought with him on Armageddon against the Grey Knights and was given the honour of a rare Nucerian salute when I presented the broken swords, hammers and spears I took from the Grey Knights corpses and dragged them into the warp. He let me live, my offering enough of a tribute to the lessons he taught us before he became the red angel. I remember those days. I remember the beauty and majesty of my Primarch, before Lorgar enslaved him to Khorne. The Emperor abandoned Angron to fate, leading him down the path some would call heresy and it is a crime my Primarch by my count cannot be acused of. To rise up against the uncaring and those who would abuse you, wether they sit high above you on Nuceria or on a golden throne on Terra is not heresy, that is courage. The Father once abandoned the son. But this son will not abandon his father. Because I remember what I saw when the nails did not have hold over him. I remember the stories he shared of little Asti with his daggers, Derjura riding his shriekspear, of Larbadon, and Onameus. The proud glitter in his eyes and the utter certainty of how he dreamed of being the last one standing, all his Nucerian allies lying dead beside him, all of them having died free. Those proud mortral gladiators had his back. And though he now will never have mine, I will allways have his, so hopefuly that when the light bleeds from my eyes, that my Primarch lays my bones to rest alongside those brothers and sisters on Nuceria, to be worthy of their titanic presence, so he hopefuly will one day remember who he was, that he remembers me, not as a son he did not want, but one he deserved. Because I remember. I remember, Angron '' *Malva Tanur, World Eaters Legion - Legionnes Astartes 2nd assault company M41, personal audiolog*

That was every bit the hard sell I thought it would be. I really wanna see what happens when you get to Konrad and Lorgar 😂

Angron is truly one of my favorite primarchs he was never loyal to the emperor to begin with.

I am a HUGE Angron fan! Greatest of all? Hmmm, yeah, maybe!

❤️🔴 Which alternate Heresy Angron is better? In the sense is it better Angron who is healed from the butcher's nails or Angron who never had the butcher's nails (example Blood Angels)? He who looks like a barbarian gladiator but is actually a rock of discipline and valor worthy for the World Eaters (and the Emperor)? (The Crimson Slaughter certainly doesn't need butcher's nails to create an ocean of blood) With his warriors, then finally with his sons, Angron manages to liberate the world of Nuceria and become its ruler. It would be clearer to say that: Angron is saved and raised by the village of the city of Desh'ea and then sells himself as a gladiator planning its conquest and liberation, neither he nor Oenomaus receive the butcher's nails but they are still forced to fight with Angron who gives an honorable death to his dear mentor, then (recruiting more villagers and soldiers over time) in the last battle the Emperor decides to send the World Eaters to defend Angron and his gladiators (recognizing potential new forces for his XII Legion) and subsequently, with all medical science, heal the heads of the surviving men. A good example is Vladus Barca himself (practically the loyalist version of Angron). And the World Eaters choose to repaint parts of themselves red to honor the title (and above all the sacrifice) of their father: the Lord of the Red Sands. Precisely as an example the Blood Angels, since the World Eaters of Angron do not suffer from the butcher's nails they still suffer from a kind of mental torment, the Blood Voice, which forces the most affected to shed enormous blood in order to gain some respite (of course the Librarians, using the Primarch's empathic psychic power, try their best to heal everyone). Angron also lived alongside ferocious predators, the wild Wolves of Nuceria (hard-skinned beasts), before being taken by the people of the village. And just like the Iron Hands with the Bulls of Medusa, the Dark Angels with the Lions of Caliban and the Space Wolves with the Wolves of Fenris, the World Eaters learn to build a bond with the creatures of their home planet. Another good possibility is this! Oenomaus had already freed Desh'ea and ruled House Thal'kyr, then after hearing about the boy named Angron, raised first by wolves and then by villagers, he decides to recruit him among his gladiators, seeing him as their hope. Angron thus grows well becoming a just adult, in a reborn city with a large army of strong warriors, successfully leading his valiant soldiers (and many others thanks to his empathic psychic power), with the title Lord of the Red Sands, against the tyrants (witnessing the tragic but honorable death of his father figure in the last battle), ultimately becoming the Gladiator King, powerful ruler of all Nuceria. Some time after the planet's pacification Angron meets the Emperor, this time voluntarily embracing his place as son, Primarch and father of the XII Legion of War Wolves (World Eaters), officially making Nuceria their homeworld. Or maybe even this: all the cities of Nuceria are already free and governed by several Gladiator Kings (the bloody slavery just a bad memory), who over time see the rise of the wolf Angron Thal'kyr as a sign of a worthy ruler (and future worthy Primarch)! (A soul like that of Sanguinius)

People always lookover The Butcher's Nails on why Angron is behind other Primarchs'. The guy was possibly the 3rd or 4th physically strongest one amongst his brothers as well his martial prowess in combat as well as his leadership. He trained every gladiator to overthrow or break The Nucerian Highriders prestigious military. If he had not gotten The Butcher's Nails, them it is possibly the Horus Heresy would not have happened.

By what was just said in this video. Him wanting to show empathy to others but everytime he got close to doing somet that would grant him peace it was ripped away and then replaced with more pain and suffering. What would you expect of of yourself if that happened to you

Has April 1st come around again already?

The Emperor’s favorite Clown.

Angron can compete for the title of "most tragic" Primarch and would in my top three, but yes, I am one of those people who can't just consider him the "greatest". He hasn't overcome his difficulties, he struggled, he won some of them - and then succumbed. He is one Primarch for which there is hard to see redemption, and whose death would be a mercy. But as a demon, he is denied even that.

Angron is like that medium child. Literally everyone but Lorgar can hit just as hard and strong. I hate how the Traitors got that marvel issue of "it the bad guy? Do we need to really flesh them out that well?" And if they do it like gets sandblasted later on. Like Morty, could of been interesting he actually held strong and let his second in command be the Avatar so the Plague Marines would have to be more careful... but nah he like lost it even more then Angron.

5:15 IIRC Malcador says that when Angron was found, all his allies were dead, partially by his own hands. Angron is a particularly unreliable narrator. I could imagine Big E was also upset about his custodes. While he was unconscious, The Emperor found he wouldn't be able to remove the nails. It replaced majority of his brain matter IIRC. Neoth is not known for his compassion, but his broken general still got a legion to work with.

Hersey he can't be greatest if there is one that is greatest is sanguineius

There are going to be some serious mental gymnastics in this video lol

Angron is essentially a defective Primarch due to the Butcher’s Nails.

Well, it was a tough rank. Fair play ;)

You got jokes today 😂😂😂

He’s my favorite primarch so he’s the greatest by pure bias alone

Bro was buddies with sanguinious that gives him bonus points in my book

One of these days Rho will have to realize Russ just went to Ghenna to get his ass kicked and nothing else, it however shall take more time clearly lmao

A sentence utter by no one ever, with the exception of thirsty youtubers that clearly are chaos cultist

Well, knowing that he is in pain all the time, like always, and when they put you as a slave like a chuld, i don't thin any other Primarch would do any better.All of them would end up like him.He is my favorite, and i belive that in future he would be way better and more relevant.There is so many things you can do with him, it is insane.Maybe just maybe, the only who could do better there is Konrad.

Of all the primarchs, Angron was indeed the most shafted by the Emperor.

Aside from sanguinius, russ, lion, and horus i don't think and primarch could 1 vs 1 angron without cheating like perturabo hitting him with artillery or a hypothetical fight with vulcan where he could come back from death.

I'm as pro-XII legion as it gets, but man....this is gonna be a tough sell.

Imagine getting outsmarted by Russ Greatest bum more like

This one is gonna be a reach, but thanks for the video!

wasn't Angron one of the last to be found? I think at this point the Emperor knew he was on a timer. and once he saw the butchers nails and how Angron was raised The Emperor realized it would take too much time and effort to rehabilitate him, and even then it wouldn't have brought him back to 100%. So the Emperor decided angron would just have to be a blunt weapon of destruction. just a nuke that you fire at your enemies. Which is also why he abducted Angron and immediately handed him over to his legion with no training. He knew no matter what that Angron was always gonna be angry and unreasonable, so no point in trying. All The Emperor Required of Angron was what he was already good at, killing.

Someone finally agree

I disagree majorly with your point here, Rho. Angron never 'overcame' his past. He was a victim to it. He survived it, but the overcame is too generous as he completely let's it control everything he ever did. Basically my point is what Guillerman said in his fight with Angron, he is a slave to his past and never overcame it. Honestly, Angron is the only Primarch, based on current lore, I can completely understand why he turned traitor. Not that it justifies it, mind you, but at least understandable.

That claim no one could beat angron in a fight seems suspect. I don't imagine a frothing berserker is beating either of the 2 with future sight

I never really liked the part of Angron's backstory where the Emperor just steals him from the planet and then teleports him to his legion. It just didn't make any sense.

You did a fantastic job at defending the lamest primarch, well done sir!

Did Wolf Lord Rho start making comedy videos

This video is heresy

Best Primarch at destroying his own sons ! Close second Pert and Magnus.

He’s not

Greatest? Nah. Most tragic? absolutely !

I have so many questions 😅

Angron should have been the disappeared like the other two primarchs that nobody knows anything about.

I think a angry man who literally has everyone say "murder" but would of done so in Honor would be nice.. but Angron is just the worst, if he wasnt a Primarch i think Big E would of just put him out of misery.

It's been a while since I've felt this clickbaited 🤣

Interesting argument. I disagree, unfortunately. Simply because he did end up allowing himself to be enslaved by the Emperor. He was one of the few Primarchs who understood that the Emperor was a monster, but unlike Corax, Angron was never told WHY the Emperor was a monster. (I'm firm in the belief that if the Emperor had not told Corax about the Warp, Corax would have rebelled against the Emperor as well.) He almost escaped. He almost went free. But in the end, he was brought back and he kept on slaughtering billions on the orders of a Monster. Regardless of what hardships he went through, the fact he submitted to the Emperor and knowingly did evil in his name of the Emperor (in Angron's view, at least) is more than enough to negate any argument about him being the "greatest". Could he have been the greatest? Possibly. I believe he would have been in the top 3 Primarchs had he not been mutilated. Quite likely he would have been the right hand of Horus during the Heresy (without being told about the Warp, Angron was always going to rebel), complimenting Perturabo as the Left Hand. He would have been able to rally far, FAR more Astartes to the cause of the Traitors, and likely would have been betrayed by Horus when it became clear that Angron was becoming a threat to him. Which... Angron would not have seen coming, and would keep him from being the "Greatest" Primarch. (and this would happen likely once Angron was forced to accept that Horus was being corrupted by Chaos - and would lead to Angron still becoming the Champion of Khorne, though embodying far more of the "honourable" aspects of Khorne than current Angron embodies. Short way to do it: Angron comes to Lorgar to find a way to "free" Horus from his chains, Lorgar devises a way to get Angron onto a world with significant chaos influence, and essentially tells Angron and his World Eaters that the world must be cleansed in Blood taken from honourable combat - and being an Angron fan, I'd have it be so honourable and so bloody that Khorne himself comes, Angron challenges him for the soul of Horus... and Angron loses, being forced to serve Khorne. I don't see a way that Angron stays loyal to the Emperor (unless he gets the same talk that Corvus got), and if he's Traitor, he's going to become the Champion of Khorne. It's just a matter of "how".)

He is the greatest tragedy amongst the primarch no doubt about that

Good luck

One great thing about him is that he was never actually turned, he never really joined the Emperor, he only fought in the crusade so he could find something that could kill him so he could join his brothers and sisters. He wasn't first corrupted like the other traitor Primarchs. They were manipulated, most times due to their ego, but Angron just did what he had been made to do by the nails.

Vulkan is hands-down the greatest primarch. Change my mind.

How can someone be the greatest if they can't control there anger...more over how can you be the greatest when you a psycho and cannot think strait you can be set strait but cannot continue strait in any form or fashion...no sir greatest I think not maybe most insane worst to be worst life ever but greatest. Greatest what greatest pain and confusion?

I love you Rho, but the best primarch is NO DOUBT, Lorgar

This is a hard sell lol

I'm going to say no, by a long shot. Insanely violent, forces his own troops to be insanely violent, turned traitor, self-pitying, only being a Primarchs gave him any ability to function normally long enough to avoid killing his own allies.

🤣🤣🤣🤣 that's a good one.

No. The is Lion, but if where being honest, it Sanguinius.

Jaghatai is....

That's a unique take, it makes a lot of sense.

Angron could have been the greatest Primarch, but wasn't. 0:10 video.

I felt sorry for angron but then i realised he's a stroppy teen with daddy issues.

so id argue angron is the greatest man outta the primarchs alotta stay children untill the heresy some even after as a man he is great as a primarch idk he kinda did the bar minimum so not the greatest primarch but he was a great man when he was one

Angron and konrad both had pretty shit deals