You need to start talking to a wider range of atheists, or any at all. You seem to either not have personal experiences with atheists or you cherry pick the views that fit your narrative. Most atheists that I have been are not mad at god, they are upset because they feel like they've wasted their time following a thing they no longer believe exists.

meh, let god support you.

wow so your really starting to go down the full on dishonest apoligist route... thats sad since once upon a time i thought you were a more reasonable guy than that who AT LEAST wanted to hear ACTUAL atheist positions and actually was willing to engage in disscusion. i guess resorting to making a video tantamount to a bitch slap so you can than say that we are all just irrationally angry and there is no real reason we dont believe your claim your god exists is the best you got these days huh? welp if you have any actual points, i would be more than willing to actually disscus them even if i know your not going to care to listen anymore just so i can show your own followers more of your dishonesty and simply offer an actual dissenting opinion to them different from yours that maybe could be a seed of doubt that can lead them to actually bother to look into their own faith and reasons they hold their belief and perhaps see the same way i did after years trying to hold onto my belief that at the route of everything that held up my belief was literally nothing. they hopefully can come to see that the only thing proping up religions is faith in the truest sense of the word being belief without and or in spite of evidence to the contrary and realise that is nowhere near good enough to support belief in something that if true, would be monmumentally big and at bare minimum, may concinvce them to stop things like tithing and giving you and your ilk more of their own money.

Pah! Sauron! Hail Magneto!

All atheists are mad at Sauron? Am I the only Atheist that was rooting against the evil half-man who stole poor Gollum's ring?

@@bladerunner3314 I'm mad that most people say "Mag-NEE-toe". Shouldn't it be "Mag-neh-toe"? I mean, you don't pick up metal objects with a magneet, using the forces of magneetism, do you?

@@PopePhred Who honestly cares?

@@bladerunner3314 people that use magnets, I imagine. Or magneets.

Amen.

That's an opinion, not a rebuttal.

​@@smokyquartz5817The most humourous statements are those that mimic without knowing what it is that they are mimicking.

@@thecloudtherapistOh, was I not supposed to give my opinion in the comment section? And how does one rebut a false psychoanalysis of an entire category of people? I could point to all the polling data that consistently shows that the least religious countries are the happiest and most peaceful on average. Or all the polling data of deconverts on why they left Christianity, which directly contradicts this guy’s cringey claims. I could reference Hassan’s BITE model, that explains in detail how authoritarian indoctrination teaches the in-group members to demonize outsiders using false narratives, exactly as we saw in this video. Literally every objective, observable fact that can be pointed to in reality goes against the claims in this video. But theists base their beliefs on emotional neediness, not reality, so I wouldn’t expect any of this data to be impactful. (As WLC said, he will ignore any evidence that goes against his inner religious feelings.) So I didn’t initially mention it. I don’t mind explaining, though.

@@weirdwilliam8500👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Allow my experience to add to the pile. I did a lot worse when I didn’t hold myself accountable to any universal moral authority as an atheist in my teens, then I did as a Catholic convert. I left my faith as a young teen out of a very similar resentment that Brian describes in his video. I only came back to the faith years later.

lol, i've always been atheist and what religists will never understand is god plays absolutely no part in my life at all, in fact i've known my ex wife for thirty years and only found out she is atheist too a month ago - atheists do not care about gods, i have had exactly four conversations IRL about god - none of which was prompted by me - since i left school in 1970. anyone who imagines atheists spend all day chanting "there is no god there is no god" has no idea what an atheist is. most "i used to be atheist and i was like this" either have no clue that they were really theist all along or just outright liars, and given what christians are like i'd go for liars most of the time. christians are odious and dishonest.

@@AndrewTheMandrew531 Holding yourself accountable? That's exactly the opposite of what christians are doing. You claim that this shadowy figure you call Jesus took on all your sins for you. Cool, so you're shirking responsibility. I am absolutely fine with being judged on my actions and don't need substitutionary atonement. I reject your Jesus BECAUSE I hold myself accountable (and because he isn't real). Christianity is for charlatans and scoundrels.

@@AndrewTheMandrew531 So explain why the Bible permits such things as slavery.

@@AuraHero I have an answer, but I’m not spending an hour trying to doctor it to fit KZfaq so it doesn’t remove my comment. Are there Christian apologists in your community who know their faith? I recommend that you speak with them. Or are you somewhere in the world where the only engagement you have with Christians is online?

So... you're fine with Voldemort, then?

@@pineapplepenumbra Voldemort is muh boy!!

@@james-russellgause4735 Ugh! You Death Eaters really get my goat (and probably sacrifice the poor thing).

lol weird flex, bro. Three of those countries are literally dying, period, and the fourth one (UK) is only not dying because its slowly becoming an Islamic Caliphate. Well done!

There you go being all logical in a room full of people hearing voices and cosplaying god is real. Bravo for the optimism.

Praying for you

@@chrisrose6873 Why ? If your god is all knowing , then there's no need to pray for me , because your god would already know .

@@righty-o3585 Worse than that. His god supposedly created you having perfect foreknowledge of everything you will do. So he knew you'd end up an atheist even before he created the universe. And this chum here thinks he can change that by talking to himself for a bit.

​@@righty-o3585That's not quite how prayer works. You need to incorporate Molinism (the concept of Middle Knowledge).

How can that be, when the likes of Dawkins are publicly documented as saying they won't worship God, even if he proved his existence to them. Dawkins was once asked what would you say to God when you die. He said he'd ask why was God so hidden? Is that not at least one piece of evidence for the notion put forward in this video?

@@thecloudtherapist no, you see when someone presents a hypothetical premise you are going off of the premise being true. So until someone can convince him that god is real he still wont believe in him meaning that there is no entity for him to be mad at. Like if Voldemort was real I would hate him, but he is not so I'm indifferent. The biggest issue is that if someone is truly "mad at god" then they can't be an atheist because they believe there is a god to be mad at.

@@thecloudtherapist Because the christian god is a vile narcist that uses threats to make the weak comply and demands worship without any reason ! IF you could provide ACTUAL EVIDENCE tho neither of us would be an atheist Its like asking you to worship Stalin

@@thecloudtherapist "Is that not at least one piece of evidence" No.

​@thecloudtherapist So you think all atheist are angry at God because Dawkins answered a hypothetical question with the reasonable response... I would ask God who claims to want a personal relationship with me, why then have you hidden yourself from me?

What kind of argument is this supposed to be? Wishful thinking?

If there is a God, he/she/it doesn't seem to care about any living organisms pain and suffering or contracting any life threatening diseases or conditions. So, until humans can find a cure for cancer, cancer will continue to be a health problem.

jesus healed a leper. humans cured leprosy. even when (imaginary) god is helping he is crap and humans can make a better job of it. tell me, i can see that volcanoes might in the long run help us to build character, but do we need tsunamis and tornadoes too, and okay smallpox might teach us lessons about life, but do we need measles and chicken pox and rubella and mumps and typhoid too? and i've never broken a bone or been hospitalised, the worst that's happened to me is bruising - am i missing out on character building. there is no god, nature is doing it's thing.

They would but that's to be expected in an amoral world (like the one we seem to live in).

You believe that nothing equals somebody where is the faith and where is the evidence there?…, creation needs a creator that is evident. I just don’t have enough faith to believe that we came from nothing

​@@DazeWilly I like how you confidently claim I uphold beliefs I know for a fact I do not uphold. "creation needs a creator" If by "creation" you mean the universe, then you're just question-begging.

Perfect

Many such cases

Wow! I'd ask him if that includes muslims? In Canada politicians etc bend over backwards to venerate Islam for some bizarre reason.

Including, presumably, himself, as a person with very strong and obvious thoughts on religious matters.

So, is that "atheist science professor" real, or just imaginary? I mean, that's a common meme in Christian movies, but it seems silly to me. I never knew what any of my college professors thought about religion, except for those who wore a small cross as jewelry, at least. Why would I? It certainly never came up in class. Again, why would it? And in _science_ class? Why would a science professor mention religion _at all_ in science class? It's completely off-topic. And if it were in a public school (in America, at least; I don't know about other countries), why wouldn't he get fired for that? (If it was in a Christian school, he wouldn't even have been _hired._ Christian colleges often make their employees sign 'letters of faith' assuring college administration that they believe exactly whatever silly thing the administrators do.) Maybe it's true; maybe not. Maybe you've just been watching too many Christian movies? I have reason to be skeptical, certainly.

@@Bill_Garthright cringè You have no reason to even be hear. No reason. No reason to have read the story in the first place.

Still waiting on your defense...

Each of those people will have to answer for their sins before their Creator one day. Lies/false religions/heretic sects wreak havoc on humans. I understand the frustration... Because some people lie doesn't mean everyone are liars. Because some religions or sects are false doesn't mean there isn't a true religion. It takes a lot to come to terms with the people who hurt you, but if you can forgive them and move on it'd make you happier and holier, and perhaps you would have an easier time navigating these big questions. God bless.

I can understand that. It was different for me. I was raised Christian. I didn't know a single other person who _wasn't_ a Christian all the time I grew up. But I don't remember ever believing it, myself. So I didn't have that wrenching change of losing any religious beliefs. That must have been difficult. Back when I was a kid, I thought it was kind of silly, but harmless. No one seemed to take it very seriously, except for an hour on Sundays. No one _acted_ like they believed it. And they all apparently believed it only because they'd been taught to believe it as children by parents who'd also been taught to believe it as children. That seemed like a poor reason to me. (Even as a kid, I knew that there were other religions, past and present, that people believed for the same reason my friends and family believed in this one.) I'm still angry sometimes, of course. I'm angry at priests who rape children and the church which covered it up, moving pedophile priests to new, unsuspecting parishes where they could find fresh victims. I'm angry at the evil things religious people are still doing in the name of their god. I'm angry that faith-based thinking is destroying my country and my world. But to pretend that means I'm angry at "God" is just silly. I don't believe that gods are even _real._ How could I be angry at imaginary beings?

@@Bill_Garthright Priests are no more likely to engage in sexual misconduct that normal people, and far less than teachers or other positions of authority. "evil things in the name of god" is a pointless distinction, since people are just as liable to commit evil acts for non-religious reasons. Are you angry at communism? Or feminism? I doubt it. You have a very poorly developed methodology based on fallacious reasoning. You need to fix that before you even begin to have a rational discussion about God or religion.

@@Burt1038 _"Priests are no more likely to engage in sexual misconduct that normal people"_ I'm a normal person, but I don't rape kids. I wouldn't cover up child rape, either - or _any_ rape. But OK, you can claim that priests are no better than anyone else. I don't know why the Catholic Church would give them positions of authority, then. I don't know why the Catholic Church would teach _children_ that priests are special, that priests should be listened to and obeyed. That seems foolish, doesn't it? But fine, if your god makes you no better than anyone else - and a lot worse than most - fine. *But the Catholic Church covered up the rape of children, while helping rapists find other children to rape.* _That's_ one of my big problems with the church. Not the only one - far from it. There are other problems, too, of course. But that's really a big one, don't you think? It's hard for me to understand why the Catholic Church still _exists_ after that. If _child rape_ isn't enough to get Catholics to switch to a slightly different version of the same basic superstition, what _would_ be? The leaders of the church demonstrated very clearly that they cared not at all for the children of their parishioners, but _everything_ for the reputation of their own organization, _everything_ for their own status and authority. And how long has this been going on? How long have priests been raping children with no accountability? Well, for decades, certainly, but very likely for _centuries._ But hey, no problem for Catholics, huh? _"people are just as liable to commit evil acts for non-religious reasons."_ To quote Steven Weinberg: "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." Now, I _don't_ entirely agree with that. Non-religious ideology can also get good people to do evil things. But religion is special, because religion claims that they're doing evil for their _god._ That's quite an excuse, don't you agree? No non-religious ideology can have an excuse like that! How can finite evil even _matter,_ compared to eternity, right? Of course, none of that matters in this particular discussion, because I don't support _non-religious_ people who do evil, either. I don't support _non-religious_ people who rape children. And I would not support a _secular_ group which covered up child rape, moving rapists around so they could stay hidden and continue raping children, _either._ OK, so your religion is no better than anything else? Fine. But I don't support _any_ organization which facilitates child rape. And I don't know why anyone _would._ _"You have a very poorly developed methodology based on fallacious reasoning."_ And you seem to be desperately trying to defend child rapists and an organization which has supported those rapists for decades, if not centuries. I don't know why. _"You need to fix that before you even begin to have a rational discussion about God or religion."_ No, I don't. I can - and _will_ - maintain my dislike of child rape. If you don't like it, tough! And as I say, that's only one example among many. It's a very _noteworthy_ example, which is why it's always worth mentioning when talking about the Catholic Church in particular (not that Protestant organizations haven't also had the same problem, of course). And the church's reliance on sexually-repressed celibates likely doesn't help matters any! But that has little to do with gods or religion _in general._ Not every religious organization is as bad as the Catholic Church, and I don't claim otherwise. But they're all faith-based, not evidence-based, and faith-based thinking is destroying my country and my world. Again, not every religion is part of that. Again, Christians can't even agree with _other Christians_ about much of anything, let alone with the other faith-based people in the world, even when they're all supposedly following the same magic book supposedly provided to them by the same supposedly all-knowing deity! And I do _not_ argue otherwise. None of this has anything to do with my atheism. I'm an atheist because I've seen no good evidence that _any_ god is actually real, rather than just imaginary. That's all. That's all it's about. Show me good evidence that a god is real, and I'll change my mind. I certainly don't hate all religious people - hardly any, in fact - and I don't hate most religious groups. Heck, I've been surrounded by Christians all my life. I was _raised_ Christian. I'm not an atheist because I hate anyone. I'm an atheist because I see no good evidence that _any_ god is real, rather than just imaginary. And I oppose faith-based thinking because I care about the truth. Evidence is how we distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking, while there is nothing - literally *nothing* - so crazy, so harmful, or so wrong that it _can't_ be defended by an appeal to faith. I used to think that religion was kind of silly, but harmless. Unfortunately, even the _best_ examples of religion don't seem to be harmless, because faith-based thinking is the fundamental problem with all of them. And faith-based thinking is destroying my country and my world. But even _that_ is not why I'm an atheist. After all, I was still an atheist back when I thought that religion was harmless. Do you have *one piece of good evidence, specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself,* that your god is real, rather than just imaginary? No? Well, _that's_ why I don't believe in gods.

there is no god, stop wasting your time being agnostic, get a hobby forget about god. i've always been atheist, i never needed a god for anything, never think about god outside of youtube. god is a waste of folks lives

Well then Christianity is for you! The angry god jehovah killed his son only once! As long as you keep doing what Brian’s religion tells you to do, he won’t burn you in hell forever and ever, what a deal!

yes, religists require pity, they are just scared of god.

Note: They're also all bad.

It's all about memorizing responses.

So why did he assert it and walk away?

@@AndrewTheMandrew531 _"So why did he assert it and walk away?"_ Why listen to nonsensical answers you have heard a million times before?

@@AndrewTheMandrew531 "So why did he assert it and walk away?" Because he knows that all he would hear is idiotic and offensive bollocks, because that's all these street conmen ever come out with.

Right: wokism, BLM, Slava Ukraine - new cults monthly destroying youth

​@@dottorb7054and the reasons those activisms are considered bad is that they seem religious in behaviour. Kinda funny 😂

Yeah this guys one of the worst. Mike winger, deflate, red pen. They just oooze insincerity from every pore of their being.

Damn those Unicorns they keep eating my garden flowers, what else could it be..

At least fairies, dragons, and unicorns dont give kids bone cancer.

​@@rightpaand they don't allow rape every single minute of the day somewhere on Earth

Hate those fucking dragons

@@rightpa The bone cancer fairies do. And what about the toe stubbing fairies, the ones that distract you and make you stub your toe? The underpant stealing gnomes, the sock stealing goblins, the car wrecking gremlins? The list goes on...

He uses that wording in the title intentionally, and elaborates on it within the video.

The latter requires the abandoning of all reason.

While this is certainly applicable to the Classical Neoplatonic god envisioned by 1st Millenium Christianity. It certainly doesn’t hold for the god described in the Bible who walks among men and speaks to humans directly intervening in worldly affairs. Such a god would be knowable through empirical investigation. I reject the Christians tactical redefinition of their Hypothesis into an ever more abstract and unfalsifiable riddle. When it’s clear as day the god described in the Bible does not exist in our reality.

There is a big difference between Catholic doctrine and protestant doctrine. For example, Catholics pray to saints Mary, while protestant don't. Another difference is the Pope.So no, Catholic mass is nothing like the protestant teaching.

Go watch the first Mass Of The Ages, and you'll have your answer.

Because vice robs us of our gifts.

@@shortstopmotions it's ok, you don't understand the complaint. If someone is saying something that makes absolutely no sense to you, you are likely not in a position to help. No matter how clever you believe the come back might be. And that's ok

they don't, they do in America because of a difference in style, the Mass looks slightly different all over the world.

Merriam-Webster dictionary gives the definition of prejudice as a “preconceived judgment or opinion.” In this case, I think that word hit the nail on the head.

And what about the teachings of said religion are so bad?

But if you don’t believe in an objective sense of morality why should anyone bother listening to what you have to say?

@@harrygarris6921 that's an answer of ignorance

​@@harrygarris6921 If Christianity adheres to objective morality, then why tf are there thousands of denominations of the Religion, hundreds of which are in the US alone? Also, there are 3 churches on my street who can't agree on any moral issue, and they're the same denomination.

@@harrygarris6921 Do you think slavery is good? Because if we go by the Bible, it's clearly something that Yahweh is fine with.

@@GRAHFMETAL claiming that there is objective morality is not the same thing as claiming to perfectly know and perfectly practice it.

I think it's the second best Christian thing on youtube right after Missing the Mark's channel name

I find apologists entertaining, as a curiosity, and I sometimes wonder about the psychological trauma that leads them to do what they do, and I wonder about the violence that religious dogmatists cause all around the world.

I hate Dolores Umbridge

@@konyvnyelv. Yes, I understand. When reading or watching fictional media people do get angry with the bad characters. Also, in some philosophical debates, one may temporarily take the position of supposing some God exist for the sake of the argument. These are the only two reasons I can think of at the moment why an atheist might seem angry at any God.

@@konyvnyelv. that's actually a good illustration of why saying we're angry at god is dumb, i have no more idea who god is than dolores here - how can i be angry at either of them?

@@imusmoedegrasse lol you need to get out more. it's not possible for theists to understand where atheists are coming from, theists spend 24/7 worrying about pleasing god and think atheists do the same, whereas we spend 100% of our time not thinking about god a t all. youtube is the one place i like to troll the talking snake and donkey cult cos it's fun, other than that - who is this god? i have no idea.

@@HarryNicNicholas Well, you see, he's this guy who exists (you know, that thing you do in time and space?) outside time and space. Oh, and while he was doing that, he also made a garden in time and space and walked around in it for some reason.

i vote for satan at every chance, the devil is a much more reasonable person than god. compare the two, god is a despot.

not forget, just don't believe making it meaningless

Christians also forget about Vishu's justice (see how dumb that sounds to you who doesn't believe in Vishnu).

"it's inescapably retributive" Yeah, petty and cruel people invent petty and cruel gods. I'm well reminded of that on a regular basis.

@@WhiteScorpio2yep. Christians literally worship the idea of punishment itself. It’s why the symbol of their religion is a literal torture device. It’s sadomasochistic and morally debased.

_"I find this to be an implicit evidence for the Fall."_ Why isn't it implicit evidence that your god is just imaginary? After all, if Christians are right, "the Fall" must have been God's plan. An omniscient being can't be surprised, so "God" must have known everything that would happen before he even created the universe. And that's a silly kind of plan, isn't it? And an omnipotent being could have made the universe, and everyone in it, differently, if he'd wanted. He could have made each individual one of us differently, if he'd wanted, or he could have created someone else, instead of us. You don't have some _other_ god forcing him to create particular people do you? Besides, your premise is wrong. We _don't_ all have that same intuition. Maybe most Christians do, and you don't know anyone but Christians? Of course, Christians are taught that as _children,_ at a time when they readily believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy,... and God. Other children around the world are taught to believe in _different_ magical beings. And typically, they believe whatever they're told by trusted adults in their life. That's why religion tends to be tribal. Faith-based people tend to believe whatever their people believe, almost always whatever they were taught to believe as children. Personally, I _don't_ feel that anything is "meant to be." I do feel that some things are wrong, because they're cruel or unjust or something else I wouldn't want to suffer through. (Bigotry, for example. Or slavery. Or... cancer in children.) But "meant to be"? No, I don't feel that in the _slightest._ I'm evidence-based, not faith-based. I see absolutely no reason to think that the natural world was "meant to be." The natural world is what _is,_ not what was "meant to be." If all of this was "meant to be," your god is an idiot - and a monster. But it's more likely he's just imaginary, don't you think?

@@Bill_Garthright Surely we can imagine a world where there isn't any death, suffering, sickness, ignorance, lies, injustice, slavery, ugliness, or hatred; something like a world of truth, goodness, and beauty. If we can't exactly imagine it (because it's like imagining heaven), we at least yearn for it and would want that world to exist, yet we don't have it. A strange desire for people to have for something that's impossible to attain (on atheism). And atheists complain all the time about why a good God would create a world with suffering in it, as if they imply it should be better than it is. On that they are correct in a sense, this is my point about how things now are not how they are meant to be, and this is _not God's fault but man's,_ since God gave us Eden and "we" wanted the knowledge of good and evil apart from God. The Gospel is God's rescue operation for his creation. People say that "original sin is the most evident doctrine of Christianity, just open the newspaper." What right do we have to say humans are not meant to be bought and sold as subhuman property if atheism is true? Where are you left if the way things are (in all its brokenness) is just the way things are, and there is no redemption for any of it? At least I'm objecting to the perception that Christians believe the way things are is the way things ARE meant to be. God can foresee and allow evil (privation of good) like the Fall to bring about a greater good, even one we can't see yet. For instance, Adam may have known about God's justice, but unless he fell he would never learn his mercy. God sees the whole story in one perfect moment, but we can't. Perhaps we can think of it like this: if God is like an author writing a story (where the characters are free), would it not have some kind of conflict? Such as the conflict between the free will of creatures and the creator's will? That's what the Fall is, and that's arguably what all sin is at a fundamental level, saying "my will be done, not yours." You can make remarks about religion as though it's only something that's imposed on children who just cling to whatever they were taught. To a degree, yes, the culture informs what a person believes, and reason eventually prevails over false beliefs, but Christians can account for that with things like invincible ignorance. Every culture is aware of transcendentals, even if they go about it in imperfect ways, there remains rays of truth. Also atheists indoctrinate their kids too. Perhaps I can just as easily say you just don't want to think about there being a world where things are "meant to be" because of what that implies (God). Interestingly, I've been thinking about a certain argument from design that observes that created things are on some level arbitrary. As an aspiring product designer myself, I realize that there is no one set way to make something, details could always differ; a pencil sharpener doesn't have to be necessarily angled at 30 degrees. In the same way, does grass have to be green, why not pink? God could have made things differently, but he chose this way for some reason, and this reveals some kind of intent from the fact that things are "this way" and yet don't have to be "this way." Implicit in this argument is the contingency argument, that things that exist in the world can't explain their own existence, so they must appeal to something outside itself to explain it, which can't keep going ad infintum, so there must be a necessary terminator to the chain which fully explains itself, which is God. I'll add that faith and evidence don't have to be opposed to each other. Faith is a trust in revelation; it is what brings you to final assent to a truth, while evidence points you in that direction. Reason brings clarity, faith brings depth. Just imagine how many scientists you are putting your faith in that they're telling you the truth; and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Your last paragraph shows you misunderstood me, I hope this clears it up. Sorry about the length.

@@kreatillion1718 _"Surely we can imagine a world where there isn't any death"_ You know? I don't think that I can. Death is a part of life. As far as I can tell, if there wasn't death, there wouldn't be life - not anything we'd recognize as "life," certainly. Death _allows_ life. But anyway, if I want to imagine things, I'll read a fantasy novel. I'm more concerned with what's actually true. _"And atheists complain all the time about why a good God would create a world with suffering in it, as if they imply it should be better than it is."_ It _should_ be, if a "good God" exists. But that's not a "complaint." It's just an observation. This world really isn't consistent with the idea of a "good God." And the Bible _definitely_ isn't consistent with that! Now, I'm not saying that death wouldn't exist. But there'd be a whole lot less unnecessary suffering. Cancer in children, for example? What kind of "good God" would give cancer to children? Or birth defects? Or parasitic worms which burrow into a child's eye and blind them? I could go on and on. Somewhere in the world, as you read this, a child is choking to death, thanks to the idiotic way we breath and eat from the same opening. If a god designed that, he should be fired. But there's zero evidence that it's anything but natural evolutionary processes which simply _can't_ plan ahead. _"this is my point about how things now are not how they are meant to be, and this is not God's fault but man's, since God gave us Eden"_ Don't be silly. First, you don't really take that Garden of Eden story _seriously,_ do you? Even _Christians_ don't believe that actually happened, most of them. (This is a Catholic channel. Catholics don't believe in a literal Garden of Eden, do they?) But more importantly, modern Christians tell me that their god is omniscient and omnipotent. If that's true, then everything that happened was God's _plan._ If an omniscient, omnipotent creator god exists, then he knew everything that was going to happen before he even created the universe. You can't surprise an omniscient deity. And an _omnipotent_ deity would not be limited on who or what he created. So, if that is true, he created _exactly_ the world he knew he would get. If there's any fault to be had, it is _definitely_ God's. _"What right do we have to say humans are not meant to be bought and sold as subhuman property if atheism is true?"_ Heh, heh. You've have _got_ to be kidding me! The Bible _tells_ you to do that. How in the world can you bring up slavery when the Bible _tells_ you to buy and sell human beings as property??? Have you not even read your own 'holy book'? Check out Leviticus 25:44-46. It lays out precisely America's system of race-based slavery. It even tells you _why_ you should enslave those... other people, instead of your own people (not that it doesn't support enslaving them, too). _"For instance, Adam may have known about God's justice, but unless he fell he would never learn his mercy."_ Wow! Your god is really a complete POS, isn't he? Luckily, there seems to be no good reason to think that he's anything but just imaginary. _"if God is like an author writing a story (where the characters are free), would it not have some kind of conflict?"_ So God is just fiction? Yeah, that makes sense. _"Perhaps I can just as easily say"_ You can say anything you like. But as long as you don't have even *one* piece of good evidence, specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself, backing up your religious beliefs, I'm not going to be able to take it seriously. Evidence is how we distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking. So, as long as you don't have *anything* distinguishable from wishful-thinking, I just can't take your claims seriously. _"God could have made things differently, but he chose this way for some reason"_ *Evidence?* _"there must be a necessary terminator to the chain which fully explains itself, which is God."_ *Evidence?* _"Faith is a trust in revelation"_ Faith - in the religious sense of the word - is belief without evidence or despite the evidence. It can't be trust, based on the evidence, as long as you don't have anything - *anything* - distinguishable from wishful-thinking backing up your religious beliefs. Do you? Just *one* specific example? Just *one* piece of good evidence that your god is real, rather than just imaginary? Of *one* piece of good evidence that _any_ of the magical/supernatural stories in the Bible actually happened? Thanks for the reply!

​@@Bill_Garthright your comment got deleted? After "imagining" I basically agreed that we can't fully imagine that world, so I talked about how we at least yearn for a true, good, and beautiful world. I agree, you agree, God agrees that it should not be the case that a child should become blind from a parasite. The thing is God doesn't actively send the parasite, he allows it. For what purpose I may never know. This is a product of a corrupted world where God's good presence is "blocked" in a sense, and is again an evidence for how this is not how things are meant to be. In the place where God is fully present, heaven, no such thing would exist. You will note that Jesus healed the sick, not made them sick. I think it is good to make peace with death, but I also think it's not "meant to be." People mourn when loved ones die, and for good reason, death isn't good. I would say it's a product of the Fall, in one sense it humbles us; and it's why "the last enemy to be destroyed is death." It's also why we profess a resurrection; as we are now, immortality would be bad, we would be stuck in an decaying world as things lose their temporal meaning, but after being made righteous, eternal life in the beatific vision is what we were made for. Catholics don't necessarily believe in a literal accounting of Genesis and we recognize the use of figurative language, yet we would say it does pertain to history in some sense. Early Genesis is not meant to be a rigorous historical account, it's more legendary. One theory is that God guided evolution up to proto-humans, then God ensouled a pair with rational souls (the first parents), and there was some kind of rebellion, and these fallen-soul humans populated the human community; perhaps these events line up with the neolithic revolution or the advent of cities in Mesopotamia where we see a marked change in rational human nature. So you would hold God responsible for what his creatures freely chose to do? Simply because he foresaw it? Perhaps you would have a point if he "did nothing" about it, like maliciously allowing bad to happen, but you really can't say that conclusively, since you don't know the whole story, how do you know there isn't a greater good being worked on? We do know that God did come to solve the problem in the person of Jesus, taking the brokenness of the world on himself, dying, and rising to redeem the world. It's a very mysterious thing, God's omnipotence and omniscience takes into account man's free actions; while we are writing the story so to speak, he beholds the whole story in one moment. It goes to show God's power in that even those things he doesn't "own" like evil he can use toward his own end. Slavery is an interesting topic. Historically, slavery has been a fact of human nature, and to a degree the master/servant archetype still exists today in employers and employees. We can actually credit Christianity for modern sentiments against slavery based on the fundamental principle of the dignity of all people. For a period of time in early Christendom, slavery had actually been eradicated. Arguably, even the OT practice was tame by comparison to the world around them. The thing is, historically, sometimes, taking someone into your service (and treating them well) is among the dignified things to do, even though slavery is objectively an evil thing (as in there wouldn't be slavery in heaven), since these people are often indebted and can't survive on their own, or they're prisoners of war serving reparation for the damage done where the alternatives are killing them or letting them go to foster revenge. It's similar to killing in self defense, the death in itself is not a good thing and ideally should be avoided, but sometimes you need to kill the assailant to preserve something good. As for what's in the Bible, you'll notice that the problematic passages are mostly Levitical, very early in salvation history, which applies to something called progressive revelation; basically God is gradually teaching his people over time how we ought to live given how hard out hearts can be, and we can see how the teaching has "changed" when we read Philemon and other parts of the NT. Treat those we serve with humble obedience and treat those who serve us with justice and dignity. But of course all you did was deflect onto me, you haven't answered the issue of slavery from the perspective of atheism. Only atheists can turn mercy into a bad thing You're missing the point about the story-conflict analogy. It's what we call a theodicy, vindicating the goodness of God in the face of apparent evil. In terms of empirical evidence, the best I could point to is going to be surrounding the historical person of Jesus. And then perhaps we could talk about saints and miracles. But in terms of proving God, surely you've heard it a million times but the realm of science and "evidence" and the realm of God are categorically different things. You're gonna have to think more meta to get at what God is, like philosophy, because he's not one more thing among many "in the universe" that can be observed and peer reviewed. Rather think of it this way: science itself is impossible if the universe isn't intelligible. This intelligibility we perceive is not expected given atheism, but it is expected given theism. This is why more mathematicians are theistic than biologists. The right question is "why does anything exist" not "why does this thing exist." Anyway, I am not against reason and evidence; the whole project of science owes a lot to Christianity. Just to substantiate that quickly, think about how pagans believe gods reside in the world while Christians believe God is outside his creation; this means we can subject the universe to tests to understand it, which would be taboo given paganism. Atheists hate it when Christians impose that they believe there is no god, "no it's a lack of belief in a god." Same way, it's not fair for you to impose what we mean by faith. In a sense, faith doesn't involve reason, however, it isn't therefore opposed to reason. If God genuinely prophesied something, what could be more reasonable than trusting it since it comes from a trustworthy source? Abraham had faith that his son Isaac would not die when God tested him because God had already promised a multitude of descendants through him. In one sense, Abraham didn't have evidence an angel would stop him, yet he knew God to be trustworthy. Faith goes beyond reason, but is not opposed to it. Catholics are just as against superstition as you would be.

@@kreatillion1718 _"your comment got deleted?"_ No, I still see it here. But KZfaq does a lot of screwy things lately. If you can't see a comment, you might try sorting the comments by "Recent," rather than by "Top Comments." Admittedly, that makes it a pain to find anything. Here, I'll copy-and-past my previous comment below (then start a new reply to you, separately): @kreatillion1718 _"Surely we can imagine a world where there isn't any death"_ You know? I don't think that I can. Death is a part of life. As far as I can tell, if there wasn't death, there wouldn't be life - not anything we'd recognize as "life," certainly. Death _allows_ life. But anyway, if I want to imagine things, I'll read a fantasy novel. I'm more concerned with what's actually true. _"And atheists complain all the time about why a good God would create a world with suffering in it, as if they imply it should be better than it is."_ It _should_ be, if a "good God" exists. But that's not a "complaint." It's just an observation. This world really isn't consistent with the idea of a "good God." And the Bible _definitely_ isn't consistent with that! Now, I'm not saying that death wouldn't exist. But there'd be a whole lot less unnecessary suffering. Cancer in children, for example? What kind of "good God" would give cancer to children? Or birth defects? Or parasitic worms which burrow into a child's eye and blind them? I could go on and on. Somewhere in the world, as you read this, a child is choking to death, thanks to the idiotic way we breath and eat from the same opening. If a god designed that, he should be fired. But there's zero evidence that it's anything but natural evolutionary processes which simply _can't_ plan ahead. _"this is my point about how things now are not how they are meant to be, and this is not God's fault but man's, since God gave us Eden"_ Don't be silly. First, you don't really take that Garden of Eden story _seriously,_ do you? Even _Christians_ don't believe that actually happened, most of them. (This is a Catholic channel. Catholics don't believe in a literal Garden of Eden, do they?) But more importantly, modern Christians tell me that their god is omniscient and omnipotent. If that's true, then everything that happened was God's _plan._ If an omniscient, omnipotent creator god exists, then he knew everything that was going to happen before he even created the universe. You can't surprise an omniscient deity. And an _omnipotent_ deity would not be limited on who or what he created. So, if that is true, he created _exactly_ the world he knew he would get. If there's any fault to be had, it is _definitely_ God's. _"What right do we have to say humans are not meant to be bought and sold as subhuman property if atheism is true?"_ Heh, heh. You've have _got_ to be kidding me! The Bible _tells_ you to do that. How in the world can you bring up slavery when the Bible _tells_ you to buy and sell human beings as property??? Have you not even read your own 'holy book'? Check out Leviticus 25:44-46. It lays out precisely America's system of race-based slavery. It even tells you _why_ you should enslave those... other people, instead of your own people (not that it doesn't support enslaving them, too). _"For instance, Adam may have known about God's justice, but unless he fell he would never learn his mercy."_ Wow! Your god is really a complete POS, isn't he? Luckily, there seems to be no good reason to think that he's anything but just imaginary. _"if God is like an author writing a story (where the characters are free), would it not have some kind of conflict?"_ So God is just fiction? Yeah, that makes sense. _"Perhaps I can just as easily say"_ You can say anything you like. But as long as you don't have even *one* piece of good evidence, specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself, backing up your religious beliefs, I'm not going to be able to take it seriously. Evidence is how we distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking. So, as long as you don't have *anything* distinguishable from wishful-thinking, I just can't take your claims seriously. _"God could have made things differently, but he chose this way for some reason"_ *Evidence?* _"there must be a necessary terminator to the chain which fully explains itself, which is God."_ *Evidence?* _"Faith is a trust in revelation"_ Faith - in the religious sense of the word - is belief without evidence or despite the evidence. It can't be trust, based on the evidence, as long as you don't have anything - *anything* - distinguishable from wishful-thinking backing up your religious beliefs. Do you? Just *one* specific example? Just *one* piece of good evidence that your god is real, rather than just imaginary? Of *one* piece of good evidence that _any_ of the magical/supernatural stories in the Bible actually happened? Thanks for the reply!

i find it odd that this "personal god" ain't really passing on important information, not how to solve hunger, god doesn't mind children starving to death, i mean he doesn't tell anyone which denomination is the right one. either that or he's telling them ALL they are right?

​@@HarryNicNicholas ah yes, the classic "problem of evil", which we do not have a definite answer. The only thing we know is that through God's infinite wisdom and goodness, He allowed some evil and brokenness to happen (including hunger, not that He's the cause of them), because "he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it" (Cathecism of the Catholic Church 311). How exactly? We are not entirely sure, and it's none of our business to ask God what He should instead do. What matters is, God has assigned humans to take care of each other, it's up to us to either sit on our couch and blame God, or do the best we can to feed each other, to give them clothes/money, to comfort them in sadness, etc. Also, we know that Catholicism is the truth, because Jesus who had raised from the dead, entrusted His command to the early church. People can disagree with this, but that does not mean there is no one true faith (or denomination).

@@JustARandomBrotherInChri-zg6ku And I know Catholicism isn't the truth, because the biblical Jesus couldn't exist (Adam and Eve didn't exist, therefore no original sin, therefore no sin and no need for a messiah... so Jesus could not be the messiah). People can disagree, but that doesn't make their delusional versions of reality true. This is fun.

Two words: "camera pants."

@@Diviance If you are sincerely looking for truth, I would like to invite you to present the evidence that Jesus (or original sin) does not exist. If you are just messing around, then I'll end the discussion here. Peace.

Wow. Thats some good poisoning the well there, but I'll take your obvious bait. I'm angry because the church I grew up in is the largest criminal organization in the world. Between harboring child rapists, laundering money and profiting off the desperate, I think I have good cause to be angry.

Atheist dogma?🤡

that's because you come across as an arrogant know-it-all who claims the creator is a good friend while having nothing to back up the claim a creator exits, you're just really annoying little twerps who have little or no self awareness, you piss people off and you think it's great that you do. all you have is hot air and you think you're fantastic.

People tend to be snarky when a guy that support the biggest pedo organization on the planet act like there's some value to it

Your personal biases make you come across as immature and prejudiced. Also, exceptionally lacking in critical thinking.

Utter nonsense. We can explain why people do "evil things". We can explain why 20 years ago 230.000 people died in a massive tsunami. It is you who can't account for that. Your tri-omni god is incompatible with reality. And no "muh free will" doesn't affect tsunamis. Sorry to say.

No we hold the believers responsible for the things they do in the name of an imaginary being. also, we can play your game and say IF a god exsists, why......That is a far cry from holding a god responsible

Most atheists are angry about the belief in and claims about that god and the influence on society, so also in them. Why do we need to hear over and over again we are immoral, (tool of/possesed by) Satan, have to repent, only like to sin etc.? Satan is part of your religion, not our life. Keep your god, Satan and judging to yourselves.

Im glad someone gets it, however it does seem like being "mad at god" is often presented when the reality is that the people are mad at the institution itself.

There is no demonstrated evidence for a god or gods other than your feelings. I'm no more mad at your god than you are mad a Allah for splitting the moon.

@@pottingsoil You seem to have a lot of anger. I'll keep you in my prayers.

@@El-Harto brother, I am helping the least amongst me. By telling you that you're a moron and that you should work on that, I'm helping you. This is how I get into the kingdom of heaven. I have been praying that my fellow Christian no longer post stupid shit online. So far, my prayers are unanswered. May god judge your equal soul but lesser mind with grace and justice.

@@Demoniodg I will not hear perceived wisdom from blasphemous individuals. I have found all the help that I need in our lord, savior, and fulfiller of prophecies ---> Joshua. Matthew 2:23

​@@pottingsoilyour prayers are more likely to be answered if you conform your will to that of Christ

@@marvalice3455 It is. You would know if you were Christ and not a sinful piece of clay. Matthew 25:31-46

They believe that life is pointless, and that death is eternal, and the sun will eventually destroy everything. They are miserable And want everyone else to be just as miserable.

@@firenze6478 Don't you think that is just as emotional an accusation as the atheists you're talking about would make?

I'm not! Nor are the vast majority I know, so not all then. Can't say the same for most theists I know. I do feel sorry for them.

@stultusvenator3233 I'm pretty sure most leftists are athiests and that most are angry with the Church for having some sort of hand at overturning Roe v Wade and having a strong set of principles to fall back on. I argued with an angry old man who claimed religion caused all the ills of humanity and I pointed out that athiests in the 20th century debunked THAT notion hard. Apparently humans don't need religion to be complete shitbags, which renders the athiests' argument in that regard moot.

I'd say they still behave as if they're religions - its just this time they're godless neo-religions

Well, first off, he is supposing God, the Catholic God, actually exist. Second, he is supposing he knows what this Catholic God expects humans to do.

Precisely! And I'll add in the way of clarification, arguments are not evidence.

it's all because of pessimistic and existentialist philosophies. From Schopenhauer through Nietzsche to Sartre they all go on and on about the meaninglessness of existence and the suffering that is being born. Atheists love to flock to these death ideologies and wallow in their self pity and despair.

I think a lot of theists just make up whatever they _want_ to be true.

No. I dont think there's a god that exists to impose itself, but I'm really sure that the church I grew up in exists, and I'm really sure that they try to impose on others. That is what i oppose, and especially when it's as rotten and corrupt as it is.

the problem is theists are dishonest and insecure and for people who claim they have the maker of the universe on their side, a creator who is invincible, they sure are pissing their pants over atheists - people who for the most part spend 99% of their time NOT caring about god, cos there is no god to fret over. religists are ignorant people - ignorant of how my mind works at least.

Also known as just plain Lying for Jesus.

If you are asking the question does God exist your presupposing things that exist only if God exists such as logic and the moral obligation to know the truth. If there is no god then the question itself can’t even be asked. It’s a meaningless noise.

_"He is the very ground of existence itself."_ *Evidence?* That's a pretty bold claim. I don't even know what it's supposed to _mean._ And do you have *anything* distinguishable from wishful-thinking backing it up? Just *one* piece of good evidence, specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself? Because claims are easy. That's why _every_ religion makes claims. It's just so _easy_ to make claims. Heck, even my three-year-old neighbor can make claims. It's not hard. _"our failure and laziness is why atheism is on the rise"_ OK, well, now is a perfect time to turn that around, don't you think? What does "God" mean to you? And do you have one piece of good evidence that "God" is real, rather than just imaginary? Just *one?* Why is *one* too much to ask?

​@@Bill_Garthright "God is the ground of existence" is an axiomatic definition, not a claim. If you believe existence has any grounding, which it must for us to even contemplate the issue, then we should be able to agree on that. Forgive me, but this sort of semantic pushback is tiresome and typically made in bad faith, so I will not continue the discussion if we cannot concede on that basic point.

@@FlashTrance _""God is the ground of existence" is an axiomatic definition, not a claim."_ Oh, no, it's a claim. You can't _define_ your god into existence. You made a claim about "God." Can you back it up with anything distinguishable from wishful-thinking or can't you? Now you're trying to claim, with nothing backing it up, that your claim is axiomatic. But I don't agree with that. Not even a little bit. I don't even know what you _mean_ by "the ground of existence," let alone why I should automatically accept, with no evidence whatsoever, that it's your god. And is that all you mean by "God"? That seems bizarre if you're actually a Christian. I don't know that, of course. Maybe you're some weird kind of deist? But this _is_ a Christian channel. So, I suspect that you're just trying to get out of demonstrating even *one* piece of good evidence that your god actually exists. You'll just claim it's axiomatic, huh? And I'm supposed to _believe_ your claim? Why? _"If you believe existence has any grounding"_ Why would I believe that? I don't even know what that's supposed to _mean._ _"this sort of semantic pushback is tiresome"_ Because you don't have anything backing it up? Well, don't make the claim, then. As I say, "the ground of existence" means absolutely _nothing_ to me. It's just word-salad. And _now_ you claim that it's unquestionable? Heh, heh. Well, if I didn't have anything but word-salad backing up _my_ beliefs, I might make the same claim. (Well, no, I wouldn't. Because I care about the truth. And if I didn't have anything but word-salad backing up my beliefs, I wouldn't believe them.) _"I will not continue the discussion if we cannot concede on that basic point."_ So, I have to agree with you about something I don't even _understand_ or else you'll run away? Heh, heh. And you were wondering why your own "failures" and your own "laziness" were increasing the numbers of atheists? Really? This is a pretty good example of why, don't you think? Talk or not, that's up to you. But I'm not going to agree with word-salad I don't even _understand._ Then again, if you can't *make your case,* then you're not likely going to be worth my time, anyway, huh? So I won't be heartbroken if it turns out you have nothing else.

​@@Bill_Garthright I would humbly recommend thinking about what "ground of existence" means. Consider for yourself what sustains and maintains order and logic in the universe. Then consider whether or not that thing, whatever you determine it to be, is dependent on anything else. If it is, then what is it dependent on? Keep following that line of thinking to the end and you should have found something you believe is not dependent on anything else, but upon which everything else depends. The Church Fathers and I call that God, but to call it anything at all, you first need to look for it. I spent years as an agnostic studying philosophy and religion and contemplating these things. I've replied to you because you're putting time into your comments, and that indicates to me you have some legitimate interest in the matter. If so, KZfaq comments are not the starting point. You need to consider what "ground of existence" means to you. If all this is word salad and you have no interest in it, atheism is your answer. If atheism satisfies you, you need not inquire further. Not all atheists are atheists because they refuse to think; those are the ones I was referring to in my initial comment.

Um,... huh? How did that make you stop doubting? I don't see a connection there.

@@Bill_Garthright yeah lol, none of the necessitates nor justified the needless suffering lol

Thanks for this. As a survivor of childhood cancer, I can’t imagine what my parents endured. Great connection with what Our Lady felt with her son, our Lord.

Well Jesus predicted his resurrection 3 times so she should have been consoled by that. Little kids that die unbaptised according to your religion wind up in limbo which is better than hell I guess, good thing your unchanging church quit sending them straight to hell like they used to teach.

Why would more unnecessary suffering justify unnecessary suffering?

'Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again.' - Karl Marx

Is that projection i see? or maybe somebodies daddy loved him too much. its ok he cant hurt you anymore

Wow. How many atheists have you actually spoken with? I guessing less than 2.

Therefore sky daddy real. And earth is the center of the universe? 😂

Doesn't sound like you deserve this friend.

Because God is made up. Why do you think He isn't experienced by you and I the way the Genesis patriarchs experienced him??

I can be convinced of something simply with convincing evidence.

@@imusmoedegrasse That's the TLDR, yes. Convincing evidence _doesn't_ necessarily make the explanation you derived from that evidence true, though, and that's what my longer comment was trying to lay out. You can be convinced and wrong. You can be convinced but not justified.

@@RustyWalker There are no absolutes. Yes, even when you think you have knowledge (a justified true belief) about something you can still be wrong. I hold very few beliefs.

@@imusmoedegrasse Who mentioned absolutes? I don't hold to epistemic certainty but I do have unjustified beliefs. Rather than saying "I don't believe it," because I actually do, I recognise the problem and remind myself to watch out for information that might falsify it. People sometimes say you can't choose your beliefs, and I think it is generally true although there are cases where people seek out one-sided evidence that persuaded them in one direction even if the opposite is a better case, or worse, a justified case.

@@RustyWalker I believe I exist. I believe the sun will rise and set each day. I believe these things, because I can verify/justify them through observation. I don't believe I hold any unjustified beliefs. I subscribe to the idea that you can't choose your beliefs. Beliefs are derived from prior causes, internal and external pressures that are beyond a persons control. Even people who seek out one-sided evidence.

Nothing as usual.

My response to that question is simple. Demonstrate Christianity is true first and then we can discuss if i'd become a Christian.

@@fishdude9102 Why would I spend my time giving you the truth if you're a person that doesn't care about listening to or adhering to the truth?

@@Nick-ij5nt Well, until you can actually demonstrate you have "the truth"......it's just your opinion without evidence.

@@fishdude9102 I'll give you the truth once you can demonstrate how atheism can give you objective truth claims or why objective truth claims should be adhered to under an atheist paradigm.

@@Nick-ij5nt deflect, deflect, deflect... don't wasting my time with yet another theist, who makes claims and then refuses to back them up. *Claims made WITHOUT evidence can be dismissed without evidence*

I didn't argue that. I said if you don't believe there is anything outside of the universe, how can you complain about the universe, since that's all there is. You have nothing else to compare it to. Be careful to accuse people of moral failings, like laziness. It could be that you are the one who hasn't grasped what is being communicated.

@@BrianHoldsworth I don't believe there is anything outside of the universe. I don't complain about nature. I don't believe there is any natural evil. Nature does what nature does. Anyone who complains about it is spitting into the wind.