Give it few more years, NHS will cease to exist.

That’s exactly what they ARE doing with physician associates though?

@@umeriqbal8269 thanks to the British public! Turkeys voting for Christmas

@@jibjub2121 As an immigrant myself i can tell you one thing, UK leadership has sold out this beautiful nation.

@@jibjub2121Tories love PA, that speaks volumes itself

They are noctors

Dude,nobody involved in medicine or PA profession thinks they are doing a doctors job so the comparison is invalid, they can see more straightforward cases with regular supervision.

@scarred10 mate, I'm in the know. The GMC is very concerned about PAs. It's a recipe for disaster and so-called supervision is already showing signs of being patchy. Train more actual doctors and nurses, fund the NHS properly, not sticking plaster solutions destined for chaos

@rnanerd6505 So i suppose you're fully opposed to nursing associates then.. or assistant radiographic practitioners? Were you even aware that those roles existed? .. i doubt it. im also certain that you are not aware that plenty of existing qualified healthcare professionals INCLUDING nurses train as PA's in the hope of clinical progression and bring those skills with them. You sound clueless!

@@scarred10 1. The concern is that as the NHS is collapsing they *will* be asked to do more of the things that doctors do, and 2. If they need so much supervision, does that not ring alarm bells? Would he you have your airliner piloted by a pilot associate with only 2 years’ training with the captain supervising or would you not prefer to train more captains? But more fundamentally: who’s to say what’s a “routine case”? The point is that a GP, with years and years of training, can spot the non routine from the routine, do you think a PA with two years of “training” is able to do that?

@@JP-tb3tq I sound clueless? I refer you to GPC England. A nursing associate etc is a totally different thing. Inform yourself about the real concerns of doctors, and of patients. Also, what are your credentials? Since you question mine…

If you compare how many 'mistakes' PAs have made leading to death of a patient compared to doctors you will be very surprised

They are supposed to be working under the supervision of doctors, whether that is what happens I don’t know, maybe they are putting too much pressure on Physician Associates.

Junior doctors have also been WORKING as a doctor for anywhere between 1 and 20 years !!

Theyre not "messing about " for 2 years, but what they study and DO as a job can never compare to a doctor, so why are they seeing patients in GP surgeries and other parts of the hospital ? Its total nonsense. Being a GP is hard enough as a doctor, having to synthesise huge bundles of information from any medical speciality in 10 mins without immediate access to bloods or imaging is very difficult, they dont always know the answer......now imaging doing that when you arent evern a doctor

and ur point? @@psps2034

of course they are - they hardly do clinical sciences in the 2 years - its most like a 2 year apprenticeship in the hospital - they get used to the admin side of things that junior doctors do such as requesting blood tests and scans and chasing results but they are not ready to make clinical judgements@@psps2034

@joeblog-yw9tn. Our old family doctor ( who was there when I was born) would have been horrified. He and his sort were brilliant at diagnosis ,with 5 minutes conversation. Talk about efficiency! Now they look at their smart phone and hand over a prescription. Job done ! It’s a travesty of a great tradition.

not having a driving license has nothing to do with how safe your driving is

Physician associates are qualified. They undertake an intensive 2-yr post graduate degree and attain (traditionally) a PG-cert or (more recently) an Msc. All physician associates must also be listed on a mandated register to practice, pay professional registration fees and maintain a continuous log of clinical development. Other than currently lacking the legal grounding that full regulation provides -legal regulation will start as of dec '24 - in every other sense PAs are regulated. As employed members of the NHS they are also held to the same standards of professional conduct that every other HCP must adhere to.

@@mikedonnarumma5337 can’t get a driving job without one though ! you have the unqualified doctor if you want but don’t force me to have to follow your dangerous example

@@joeblog-yw9tn your scraping the bottom of the barrel now joe, chucking in any thing ,plus fabrication for a win,

@ObsidianKnigh. It’s not a short term solution. It will inevitably become “normal”. The government finds it cheaper to import foreign doctors than to educate our own. Why would there be a shortage ? Truth is, education is being cut back severely on purpose - 2 reasons. 1) to make vote-winning tax-cuts. 2). An educated electorate isn’t so easy to manipulate.

Some PA’s work and keep on training for years and THEN lecture others on specialised knowledge they have, even some trainee doctors sit in on these lectures. There is too much generalising going on here. Most PA’s work in hospitals alongside doctors, in such places as A@E so they are working with doctors not instead of doctors.

@@cynthiamorris1874 What do you mean by trainee doctors? Medical students or doctors? The knowledge the PAs acrue is by virtue of having worked on the same ward/in the same dept for a long time. That still doesnt compare to the generalist knowledge of a doctor ,whether or not the doctor specialises in something or not. Yes, the PAs work in A&E which I odnt understand cos how can they possibly have the same body of knowledge as a doctor to see undifferentiated patients? They havnt worked as a doctor prior to their job, so they will never be able to pick up on subtle features in the history the way that a doctor can.

@@psps2034 I have NEVER advocated that PA’s are on par with doctors. I have NEVER said they have the same medical knowledge as doctors. Of course PA’s can work in A&E, just as nurses work in A&E. It’s a shame that they earn a little more than junior doctors for a short time, it seems for many on this thread that that is what it’s all about.

@@cynthiamorris1874 Nurses dont do the job of a doctor. PAs are , however, doing the same role of a doctor where they are seeing patients and treating them. You have acknowledged that doctors havse more knowledge than a PA. Therefore, with this in mind, how can you with an honest heart advocate PAs to see patients hand in hand alongside doctors knowing the care a patient received by a doctor will be better due to the greater knowledgebase?

@@psps2034 I have no idea really what you are talking about, PA’s are qualified to do the job they are trained for and that is working under the supervision of a junior doctor or a GP. You are aware that you can be seen by a Nurse Practitioner in a surgery or health centre, the same rules apply, there. If it is deemed a doctor is needed then that will be the course of action taken.

Doctors from overseas with 3 years training are now being employed in this country.

You are half right. Cost is coming before patient safety. What you need to understand is that more doctors would be better, but we actually have an abundance, but many do not want to work in primary care and many also do not want to work in the NHS. General practices are not NHS, they are private entities, contracted by the NHS to provide primary community care. What you’ll find is that the GP contract that was agreed to some years ago heavily favoured GPs in the fact they do not have to work unsocial hours. No evenings, no nights, no weekends. Many GPs do of course, but not as part of their core hours, this is done as overtime with very very lucrative financial reward. Doctors working in primary and urgent care have the system over barrel and basically dictate the rules. The status quo at the moment is, pay us more or we will go elsewhere (another country). So they get paid more. Some have demanded £140ph to work weekend shifts last minute, because they know if they offer to work last minute they can their way more often than not… because services like 111 need the clinician when they are routinely short staffed. Do you know how this is being tackled?? Upskilling the existing workforce of nurses and allied health professionals - who might I add can be just as competent. Hey may not complete a 5 year medical course off the mark, but they typically do a 3 year BSc and go on to work many years with continued on the job learning, CPD and up skulking, before they get to a position in which they ‘take the job of a GP/doctor’

@@cynthiamorris1874those Doctors still have a medical degree and have had to pass a registration exam (PLAB, now will be called the UKMLA) that assesses their competencies to make sure they are operating at a similar level to other doctors graduating from UK medical schools. They are still an order of magnitude above PA’s in competency.

@@premojha979 A three year course is not the same as a 6 year course though. The only PA’s I know have done a 3 year course in either something like diagnostic or therapeutic radiology, or nursing, BSC (Hons), leading to a MSc (Hons), then leading to UK Faculty of Physician Associate National Examination. I have never heard of anyone with a degree in languages becoming a PA, unless they did a medical/science undergraduate degree as well. However that may well be true, and I would not be happy with it. However I think people are now making statements that are not true. A terrible mistake was made, but don’t forget many doctors have also made mistakes.

What do you mean????

The people up toward the top of the pile never have to worry about how things work...that's what minimum wagers are for

They are too far left because they allow anyone in. And too right wing because they are all for deregulation. Just call itwhat it is. They are unfit.

Doubt

@@jibjub2121We doubt you

So a demi chef...

@@maielego1354 just call them that. Demi doctors.

But that's misleading. Theyre not doctors, they support the senior doctor.

​@@maielego1354 Of course it is misleading. The whole thing is misleading, just call it what they are: "Cheaper than qualified people" Poundland Healthcare.

@@HTOP1982 But they are qualified, as PAs, which is why they're called Physician Associates. What's your point?

Not one PA would do that. Why are you so insecure to think that they would do that?

@@mizlopi Unfortunately, many instances where this has happened, actively misleading patients. Starts from the very beginning, with PA students introducing themselves as "medical students.

Not quite, but it might be an indicator yes. Obviously there are loads of meds GPs can prescribe that are available over the counter, so it's no different in cost or time for the patient to just buy it themselves.

Any evidence of this?

@@gareth6326 This is KZfaq, so no evidence for any of these worthless opinions, naturally

@@jibjub2121please look at the competition ratios for GP training. There is a 2 for 1 competition ratio. So there is currently thousands of doctors who would love to be a GP but there is no training posts for that. Blame the government

@@jibjub2121Are you “part of the medical team”?

​@@gareth6326 search competition ratio of GP and you will find thousands of Drs applied for this post but only a few will be appointed because it is cheaper to hire a PA!! To see a Dr in the future you will soon have to pay. The government is hiring cheap professionals to substitute Drs.

We also have to consider differences in health concerns between different regions/countries. Some doctors may have a lot of experience which is not relevant here.

@@bigbarry8343 That's why foreign doctors have to take the 2 step PLAB exam that tests theoretical and practical knowledge before they join the system. So, foreign doctors do learn medicine relevant to the current scenario in the UK on top of what they already know.

But no one has defined specifically what PAs should be doing to say they are 'useful as PAs'. The NHS has become a wild west where some PAs are just filling in forms and helping with administrative tasks on the wards and others are performing C-sections with no supervision. As with many things in the NHS, safety concerns are being swept under the rug and staff members careers are being threatened if they whistle blow.

@@justadude8369 again utter made up nonsense. Where is the evidence that PAs are performing unsupervised sections? Other than in your crazy little mind?

Unfortunately this logic doesn’t stack up, because physician associates don’t possess any skills that a doctor doesn’t have, yet lack most of the knowledge gained in a rigorous medical training programme

@@lewisplayssaxophone tell me what you know of the pa course?

@@jibjub2121 Its inferior to a medical degree in every way. And yet PAs are paid more than doctors. Every pound spent on PAs is a gross waste of taxpayer money which could be used to recruit more doctors, nurses, pharamacists, physios, paramedics, OTs, radiographers etc all of whom are established professionals who work synergistically with doctors. A doctor could not do the work of a nurse, physio,OT etc because they are different discliplines. PA is not a discipline and the role could be performed (at a higher level) by an actual doctor.

@drakeybryter. Let’s face it. We are now a Third World country. And when did it start ? Who has been in charge all this time.? You all know perfectly well.

Not really

I mean, this actually goes to show how Ill informed the public are…. Paramedics have been working in general practice surgeries for several years. Some practices have more than others, and yes, it does make sense… do you know the curriculum of a paramedics training, what their remit and scope of practice is? Do some research and come back with a more informed argument, where you may or may not then agree with your sentiments. Certainly, more doctors would be great. But would you rather a GP or a paramedic turn up to your house when you are in a healthcare emergency? Who do you think GPs call? 😅

Robbing Peter to pay Paul

@@therona23823yeah the standard of debate on this is absolutely dreadful. Many of the public have no idea how the healthcare system actually works. They’ll moan about the state of the nhs, then vote Tory and complain about any attempts to remedy the situation. Maybe the British public will get the healthcare they deserve, and with their criticism and the current state of the nhs, maybe they’re getting what they’re deserve after all. My advice to doctors, PAs, ACPs? Leave this country as it’s only going to get worse. Go to a country that appreciates you.

I read this at the same time as he said it 😂😂😂😂

Nicely done

Your beloved labour helped destroy the NHS in Scotland via dodgy PPI schemes yet starmer still takes to the media to attack the Scottish NHS. Dishonourable man, not to be trusted. What nation are you loyal to and why?

@elliot mate why do you think anyone anti tory is pro Labour?

@@dl4731 I wouldn’t waste your time mate. He’s an utter vacuum of personality.

@@dl4731 cause he has shown elsewhere he will defend labour to the end of earth

@@dl4731 Do you stop buying cars because you can’t afford an Audi ? You need one , so you get the best available.

Not just. Three years basic training, five years clinical experience and most have additional, specialist qualifications. Even then, they don't diagnose and treat.

@@PaulK-ve1pu I don’t trust any of these made-up qualifications. Invented yesterday as a cover up.

Broad brush and anecdotal evidence. How can you brand thousands of people the same after working with half a dozen? I thought as a clinician you were meant to have a basic understanding of statistics and inferring from incomplete data? Bit of a concern actually

@@jibjub2121 i’ve worked with and trained over a hundred PAs and the ‘training course’ is not fit to have some come out the other end to diagnose without supervision. My data comes from the LMC feedback that I am a part of. As for anecdotal evidence i’ll wait for someone to do the published science. As for the salary you can see the evidence on nationally published pay scales.

Pretty disgraceful, going after and leading attacks on a profession they know doesn’t have a union and can’t fight back. They wouldn’t dare do this to nurses. It’s disgusting. Many people became PAs to help, and they’re just getting slandered and insulted. What happened to clap for carers?

@@jibjub2121PAs undermine and bully Doctors (whilst pretending they are Doctors to Patients)

@@jibjub2121Junior Doctors can’t fight back against PAs bullying them

@@Robertsmith001 the doctors unions are bullying them!! Are you mad

@@Robertsmith001 not to mention the doctors unions are bullying PAs because they know they don't have a union and can't fight back, that's the definition of bullying. Also, stop liking your own comments its cringe

@ageeordieboy. No need for all that malarkey ! Let’s just get back to what we had 20 years ago. And let’s face it : today’s “masters” aren’t worth a carrot. Same as in the US.

what absolute nonsense. Don’t compare yourself to a doctor who has done an actual medical degree just because you did a “Masters” 😂

@@ilikeeverybody7581 I have many skills and competencies absolutely equal to a doctor. 4 year degree, 7 years post qualification experience and an intensive 2 year advanced practical medical qualification. You then go on to be mentored and supervised. I can hold my own against many a doctor. I’ve solved cases that doctor colleagues haven’t. Unless you yourself work in this field….you know jack about it.

@@ilikeeverybody7581 my knowledge, training, experience and skills are comparable to a doctor. I prove it every day of my working life. End of story. Unless you work in this area, you are the one talking nonsense.

@@ilikeeverybody7581 We are following the US in this. Here, having an MA, really meant something once. But the crafty government have been handing them out like sweets - cutting the cost of intensive study. They aren’t maintaining the value of the qualification. They are undermining it. Shame on them.

@misstgirl. The GP is irreplaceable. His specialism is diagnosis - the basis of absolutely everything. He has vast experience, and he can see connections that even the patient isn’t aware of - in quite a short time. No PA or nurse can give that guarantee. Lose the GP and you will drag things out - and endanger the patient. Checking on a smart phone is criminal by comparison.

I had a suspected heart attack, after 8 hours in A and E the Cardiologist asked me what I thought was wrong! At that point I walked out…

Nasty vindictive organisation.

PAs bully other doctors though

@@Robertsmith001 proof? Nonsensical slander

@@jibjub2121Loads of proof, you just ignore it

​@@jibjub2121You won't get it. Because it doesn't exist. But you'll see plenty of PAs spiraling close to the edge.

That's the sort of government you have that doesn't care in the least about that

Why don't you look after your own granny?

You said Brits would wipe their bums after Brexit. Not so. Hence the boat people.

Be grateful. Such long hours and hard work at £5-6 an hour. Is your GP, dentist, optician, pharmacist etc white, or people of colour?

@@andrewcarson5850 Probably because they have to work to bring up a family.

Exactly why we shouldn’t have them.

@@ZoeSummers1701A I think the quality of healthcare in the States is high, if you can afford it. If PA’s had the correct education they would be an asset. Many of them do have the correct qualifications.

@@cynthiamorris1874You don’t know what you are talking about, American doctors/PA are completely different

In USA they are called Physician Assistants NOT Associates which is very deceitful

@@cynthiamorris1874 American doctoring is a racket. Just talk to ordinary Americans. Your contracts force you to pay for tests and things you don’t need.

You don’t understand, they are double checking the dose/ frequency of the treatment (not googling it)

drug formularies and guidelines are found online, it would be dangerous to try and remember all of these things

@@Robertsmith001 That’s the rose-coloured view.

This is total nonsense.

So much 'nonsense' that it triggered your reply😂, If it wasn't true the medical schools wouldnt all have quotas for accepting people from poor backgrounds. Thats not my nonsense opinion, its fact@@gareth6326

@@gareth6326 4 doctors opinions no doubt 🤣

@@bregan7450 Fool

@bregan. I don’t quite understand your point. Fifty years ago we had a brilliant and wise family doctor. He came from a working class family in the poorest part of Glasgow. He was a cultured man - and courteous. So perhaps that’s what we are really talking about. Lack of the sensitivity and social intelligence that were very much the standard of those far-off days. Standards have dropped across the board.

To become a GP you'll need to complete: a degree recognised by the General Medical Council which takes 5 years. a foundation course of general training which takes 2 years. general practice specialist training which takes 3 years.

True..but the way my GP(,s) have treated me(e.g.not referred me to specialists /consultants)the past 3 years...I cannot excuse sadly.=they never got to the bottom of my problem.They did here in Spain,albeit via private treatment,which isn't cheap,but didn't need a GP "blocking' my path. Obviously the NHS is in deep trouble....everyone knows that,here in Spain they know that as 3 doctors alone say they used to work for the NHS,and know the decline in service and customer diligence.

​@@chrissofpv3017so because YOUR experience with YOUR GP wasn't great all GPs are the same. Give over

@@chrissofpv3017Sound like a problem between you and your GP.

@@johnharding7318 DEFINITELY John!.. hopefully things will sort themselves out this year.🙏

I look forward to your next visit to A&E

So called Dr. Sebi, if alive, should be allowed to give medical advice and treat medical cases?

@@BradleyPitts666 The point is that if we had enough doctors in this country and paid them so they wouldn't go abroad, we wouldn't need this stop gap, second rate stuff.

​@@PaulK-ve1pu Exactly. Well said👍

Apparently overseas ‘doctors’ with three years training, are now working in the UK.

An egomaniac!