Why Do Pros Use Gear Like the RF Venue Diversity Fin Antenna?
Рет қаралды 19,911
Күн бұрынWhy do professional sound mixers use antennae like the RF Venue Diversity Fin Antenna? In this episode, we talk about wireless microphone antenna basics and demonstrate how the Diversity Fin extended the range of the Audio Ltd. A10 wireless system by about 25 meters when recording outdoors in a wide open space.
I purchased all of this equipment myself and no companies or anyone else has paid me to make this video.
If you’d like to learn how to make great dialogue audio for your film and video projects, please have a look at my courses at school.learnlightandsound.com including processing dialogue audio in Adobe Audition and DaVinci Resolve/Fairlight, recording sound, how to use the Zoom F4, F6, F8, and F8n, and how to get the most from the Sound Devices MixPre series of recorders. Our latest course is Sound for Live Streaming with the ATEM Mini.
Support my work creating videos by donating at ko-fi.com/curtisjudd
Gear used or mentioned in this episode. The links below are Amazon.com, B&H Photo, Sweetwater, DVEStore, Perfect Circuit, or other affiliate links. As an affiliate, I earn from qualifying purchases:
- RF Venue Diversity Fin Antenna - B&H geni.us/8Fm3B
- Audio Ltd A10 wireless microphone system - B&H geni.us/Ks5fY
- Shure Twinplex TL48 lavalier microphone - B&H, Sweetwater geni.us/GI3A
- Sennheiser MKH8050 microphone - B&H, Amazon geni.us/mUcDk
- Sound Devices 888 audio field recorder/mixer - B&H, Sweetwater geni.us/zAryW4J
- Panasonic GH5 camera - B&H, Amazon geni.us/InspOl
- Panasonic 12-35mm f/2.8 lens - B&H, Amazon geni.us/gr47
- Canon C200 camera - B&H geni.us/9Zi4m4a
- Canon EF 24-105 f/4L lens - B&H, Amazon geni.us/kZyU7e
Take your films to the next level with music from Musicbed. Sign up for a free account to listen for yourself: geni.us/G7by
Copyright 2021, Curtis Judd
#DiversityFinAntenna #Wireless #Microphone
Index:
00:00 Start
00:16 Summary
00:26 Introduction
00:37 Tip on antenna position
01:00 What is True Diversity?
01:49 Three types of antennae
02:26 Pros often use 2 shark fins
02:32 What is the Diversity Fin?
03:02 How does it work vs. whip antennae?
04:06 Price
04:18 Outdoor test whip antenna
06:30 Outdoor test Diversity Fin antenna
10:37 Please buy my courses
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Can you spot the technical inaccuracy on the thumbnail for this video?
@maciejsamborski8344 2 жыл бұрын
It looks as if fin antenna is transmitting while it should be receiving?
@chakerian 2 жыл бұрын
multiple issues... first of which shows the implied direction coming out (or in) the top of a dipole and back of a sharkfin. Second is the polarity is wrong on the dipole.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
@@chakerian Yes and yes.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
@@maciejsamborski8344 Yes.
@NickLaws 2 жыл бұрын
I bought the same RF Venue Diversity Fin earlier this year and it was worth every penny. You also forgot to mention that you can get some longer coax cables and mount the fin on a stand closer to the talent or around corners. There really aren't a lot of videos about antenna systems on KZfaq. I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing a deeper dive into this from Curtis.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for pointing out the ability to run cables. There are some trade-offs with that, but good idea to cover that in more detail.
@xray111xxx 2 жыл бұрын
Our church must use these. Ours works well. Good to see you Curtis.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for coming by, Vincent.
@RustyTube 2 жыл бұрын
Very interesting and, as usual with you, quite useful. Thanks!
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks RustyTube.
@AnilKumar-zo2eu 9 ай бұрын
Thank you so much sir for your packaged information.
@curtisjudd 9 ай бұрын
👍
@freddiealonsonido 2 жыл бұрын
Currently using MCR54 with the passive Wisycom antennas and got incredible range at the beach. Never had to move my cart in the sand and got all the way to 20+ feet with the boom fully extended at edge of the water at 50mw. Only twice went to 100mw on talent in over a month filming at the same beach, and it was more of a precaution exceeding our usual distance than we had suffered dropouts.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Nice! Thanks for sharing, Freddie!
@maxjoel5753 2 жыл бұрын
Hi Curtis,always a great pleasure listening to your reviews ,I got a good mic as advised by you …now I wish to request if you may do an in-depth review on the sennheiser E WD mic and which capsule fits better for a church set up
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks Max. I haven't used the E-WD system so I don't have any advice at the moment, but I'll surely post a video if I get a chance to use it.
@VTACTechnical 2 жыл бұрын
Superb vid Curtis many thx for sharing this. i can't believe how bad the RF performance is for a UHF product! That should be making it to that farm up on the hill at +17dbm (50mw)! I got to look into that rxr on what it's noise floor is.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
The digital UHF systems don’t generally transmit as far, but also sound really good. At least that’s the case for the A10 in my experience.
@dan_abrusci Ай бұрын
this video is amazing man thanks so much for taking the time to explain everything so well!!! If I had multiple receivers would you recommend getting an antenna splitter? Kind regards
@curtisjudd Ай бұрын
Typically an antenna distribution system is the solution.
@alexeycrockoval3620 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the Great video! Can you please explain how to connect it to multiple receivers. I am using two Shure adx5x receivers. Thank you
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
I use the Sound Devices SL2 slot system which has an in-built antenna distribution. You’ll need something to distribute the two leads like that. I’d contact one of the nearest production sound retailers to help identify options.
@TheJadedFilmMaker 2 жыл бұрын
riveting stuff! 🤟
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
👍
@malmeadows 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks Curtis! I shadowed a sound mixer who used a shark fin and had hardly no dropouts whatsoever
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
👍
@mychanel37 10 ай бұрын
🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩 Thank you very very much that's my big problem
@curtisjudd 9 ай бұрын
👍
@jeremyjones8971 2 жыл бұрын
Love this Video. Thanks for sharing. Hoping you can share some knowledge. I am a mobile DJ looking to strengthen my set up for wedding ceremonies and corporate events. I just made a big upgrade by mounting 4 Shure ULDX mics in a rack with Antenna Distro. Since I dropped some serious $ on this set up I’m looking to maximize my Antenna set up in order to get the most out of the system. My set up is primarily for live PA as I don’t really do much on the recording or production side so I’m looking for everything to sound real clean with a live audience. How does the paddle you featured differ from Shures UA-847. Also is the paddle you featured compatible with all brands of mics on the UHF spectrum. Also I noticed your system only had 1 fin. Anything you willing to share is appreciated.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Hi Jeremy, The Shure you refer to is a log periodic dipole array (LPDA or fin or paddle), but it is only oriented vertically. The difference with the Diversity fin is that it has two outputs - an LPDA oriented vertically and a dipole oriented horizontally. I don't know that one would sound better than the other, but if you have a diversity wireless system, then the Diversity fin is sort of like two antennae in one and with them oriented on different axes to decrease the chances of dropout.
@imakenoise 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for posting this video and showing how this works out in the real world. I do have one question- before you elevated the Dfin the whip antennas were folded up and not extended horizontally. This basically would kill the performance of the Dfin. We never got to see what the Dfin looked like once it was elevated.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
The whips antennae were extended during the actual test, forming a horizontally oriented dipole.
@AzizAlmezzy 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this great video Can it be installed directly on a wisycom mcr54 ? Does it need a different power source? Or is it fed from the same mcr54?
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
It is passive, no need for power.
@ive595 2 жыл бұрын
Great video, this is hi end gear, I understand there is a conversion for the sennheiser G4 system would this work with that conversion?
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
I'm not familiar with the conversion but unless you're using one of the half-rack 500 series receivers, the G4 system is not a true diversity system. But you could probably put the shark fin part of this to work on a converted G4. It just wouldn't get the full benefit of true diversity.
@TheUnMarketingGroup 2 жыл бұрын
These types of comparisons are very challenging and you did a fantastic job - Thank you 🙏. Do you think that there are advantages diversity fin has over two passive shark fin antennas mounted in the vertical orientation, pointed at the transmission source in either of these scenarios. 1) A venue with rf reflective surfaces (walls, ceilings, etc.) and 2) with handheld wireless mics that tend to change position/orientation in use. 3) when using low-power narrow band "linear" transmitters that rely more on reflective surfaces?
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Great questions. I don't know the answers, but I appreciate the questions! All worthy of further testing!
@imakenoise 2 жыл бұрын
@@curtisjudd ... every situation is unique. But I would expect you would see very large advantage using the DFin compared to whips or standard paddles when indoors. This is because the multipath reflections are constantly flipping polarization which doesn't really occur much outdoors. Diversity flies are immune from polarization cross fades that plague other antennas.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
@@imakenoise Thanks, Don!
@filmsalang5870 Жыл бұрын
Good job. If you place the whips at the same height of Fin antenna the result will shock you. Thank you.
@curtisjudd Жыл бұрын
Thanks.
@wickedplastikman Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the tips. I just bought one. Where did you buy that adapter to mount the antenna to a mic stand? And what is that part called? I couldn’t find one.
@curtisjudd Жыл бұрын
It is a mast for antennae and I bought it from Trew Audio or Gotham Sound (been a while but it was one of the two).
@fkmobile1 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the great video. What kind of antenna wires would you recommend? The ones in the video look very thin. I am using this RF Venue antenna with a Shure Axient quad receiver with the Shure antenna cables which are quite thick.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
These are custom made cables from Gotham Sound.
@ELFMEDIA 2 жыл бұрын
For example, I'm using UHD 5G SDI 50 ohm video cables, they work very well, more than 100m outdoor (but with handheld mics, not bodypacks). Every cable brand have datasheet, that describes frequencies, signal attenuation per meters, wave impedance (must be 50 ohm for most wireless microphone systems). You can find radio electronics engineer that can made custom cables for your purposes.
@quantbit7617 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the knowledge and the content. May I please know the sound gears used in studio at the beginig. All the setup for sound.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Hi Quant Bit, I recorded this with the Sennheiser MKH8050 microphone and Sound Devices 888 mixer/recorder. Links are in the description if you'd like the details.
@quantbit7617 2 жыл бұрын
@@curtisjudd thank you Sir.
@YoungBlaze Жыл бұрын
can you use this with like the dji mics and the rode wireless packs? and can you use it with UHF?
@curtisjudd Жыл бұрын
No, only with UHF systems.
@HoundDogMech 2 жыл бұрын
Antenna orientation is paramount ...many an R/C plane has been lost because the Pilot pointed the antena right the plane. Especially when turning Downwind to base. The Farthest the plane gets from the transmitter and the least RF out the tip of the Transmitter antenna.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Good point, thanks for bringing that up!
@avi8r66 2 жыл бұрын
Inverse square law in action. The normal dipole antenna is like a bare light bulb. The fin is like a spotlight.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Indeed!
@fanofnaturefilms486 2 жыл бұрын
Does tweaking the audio gain of the transmitter effects the RF range?
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
The transmitter output power? Yes. Microphone gain? No.
@fanofnaturefilms486 2 жыл бұрын
Hello sir , why the receivers connected to the recorder are taken as line input?
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Hi, this is because the wireless microphone system already amplified the microphone signal. So there is no need to amplify it again at the mixer.
@DaCarnival 2 жыл бұрын
Now I'm curious what people do when they're mixing/recording wireless sound at large venues, football-field size or bigger. Is it just even bigger antennas? A (repeater) network of some sort?
@AndersBibowOlsen 2 жыл бұрын
several antennas, and spaced out :)
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Yes, several spaced out.
@HoundDogMech 2 жыл бұрын
Orintian is prominent with any antena, it all has to do with the way RF propagation. Even more so with freqs like 2.4ghz
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Indeed.
@AllenCavedo 2 жыл бұрын
Why did you have the dipole antennae angled up? They are supposed to be horizontal. I’ve seen the RF Venue antenna many times but never saw that configuration. Maybe I missed something.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
They just fold up for storage or transport. When in use, they should be horizontal to the ground.
@HannesFamira 2 жыл бұрын
Sorry for the newbie question: Can I use this antenna with two pairs of Lectrosonic transponders at the same time? (two lavs with individual senders broadcasting to two independent receivers but just one of these shark fins)
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
With an antenna distribution system, yes, they can both share the diversity fin.
@HannesFamira 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the super quick response, @Curtis Judd. An antenna distribution system, that is an extra box between the antenna and the Lectro receivers?
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
@@HannesFamira Yes.
@HannesFamira 2 жыл бұрын
@@curtisjudd Thanks so much again!!!
@ELFMEDIA 2 жыл бұрын
@@HannesFamira Antenna receives all frequencies, similar to TV antenna on the roof, that can get all channels in RF band it designed for. So, it does not matters how many receivers you connect to antenna. If antenna can receive for example 450-900 MHz, you can use many sets even with different bands. Only problem is frequency management, but it's solvable. P.S. Sorry for my english.
@eddierocha4682 2 жыл бұрын
Hey Curtis. Would this antenna work with my Sony UWP-D11 system and Zoom f8 setup?
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
If the receiver has diversity SMA inputs for the antennae, then yes, should work. 👍
@eddierocha4682 2 жыл бұрын
@@curtisjudd Not too sure what those are. Do you happen to know if they're on the Sony lavs or is that something separate I have to purchase?
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
@@eddierocha4682 oh, those are the ports that the antennae on the receiver attach to.
@AustralianImage 2 жыл бұрын
A very interesting demonstration. I keep reading everywhere that the 2.4GHz wireless systems, such as the Rode Wireless GO I and IIs are rubbish and UHF systems are far superior. Perhaps the UHF system is less prone to interference, but when it comes to distance, they don't seem to be better. Your demonstration certainly appears to indicate that such. Or have I missed something?
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
2.4GHz wireless systems are tricky for different reasons. I didn't get anywhere near the distance with the DEITY Connect system as with the A10 with the whip antennae. So there's some nuance to that discussion.
@AustralianImage 2 жыл бұрын
@@curtisjudd I guess there's always subtleties involved, but I was expecting the UHF system to operate way further than the 2.4GHz systems and not experience dropouts as you did. Early this year I was able to test the Wireless GO II in a vehicle to vehicle situation (both moving) and was surprised that it worked when separated by around 100m+ according to the driver in the vehicle following mine. If we ever get out of lockdown, I'll be doing more rigorous tests to see what it can do.
@sanjacobs6261 2 жыл бұрын
@@AustralianImage The 2.4 GHz systems do have more unstable connections, but they usually compansate by having a massive delay buffer so any data that wasn't recived within the last 2 miliseconds could be received within the next 18 ms after that and it'll play back fine. Compared to something like the A10 system which only has a 2 ms delay, or the Sony system where this is variable and can go down to like 1.5 ms, meaning nearly no margin of error.
@AustralianImage 2 жыл бұрын
@@sanjacobs6261 I guess it's a matter of swings and roundabouts, knowing when, where and what type of a wireless system will work best or allow for a reasonable compromise. When someone relatively new to videography asks what type of wireless system they should get, I find it somewhat annoying that many will instantly bag 2.4GHz systems and only recommend much more expensive UHF systems. Often a balance is never considered.
@sanjacobs6261 2 жыл бұрын
@@AustralianImage If you want cheaper stuff, you still have a bunch of good options from Sennheiser, Sony and even Saramonic if you want, all of which operate with UHF. I don't see a reason to mess around in 2.4 GHz, when it's no more expensive to upgrade out of it.
@newlifeeveryday1821 2 жыл бұрын
I hope you don't mind but I want to ask you a sound question: I would like to record better sound of streams and rivers onto video I take with my Sony A7iii. I probably want or need some kind of stereo setup. Do you have any suggestions on all the products I would need to buy to add on a stereo capability to my Sony A7iii when I am recording streams and rivers and other nature scenes ? I just need a little help on where to start because there seems to be a shortage of material meant to help newbies with this topic. Thank you.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
The Sony cameras have stereo microphone inputs. So perhaps you might start with something like the RODE Stereo VideoMic X?
@newlifeeveryday1821 2 жыл бұрын
@@curtisjudd Thank you for the suggestion. I just watched a video of someone using them and it is a vast improvement to my video.
@newlifeeveryday1821 2 жыл бұрын
@@curtisjudd Well, I spent part of the day researching the RODE Stereo VideoMic X which you suggested. I like that option a lot but would also be grateful for a recommendation on the next step up in sound quality that I can add to videos I take with my Sony A7iii ( I focus on streams, rivers and nature sounds ). Thank you.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
@@newlifeeveryday1821 I would imagine the next step up would be something like a Sound Devices MixPre-6 or a Zoom F6 and an ambisonics microphone like the Sennheiser Ambeo. I haven't done a video on those yet, but hope to in the next several months.
@newlifeeveryday1821 2 жыл бұрын
@@curtisjudd Thank you for responding again. Can you suggest a book or document or KZfaq video for a newbie to learn about adding high quality sound to video from a camera and even how to learn about setting up a Zoom F6 device and required other equipment to record nature sounds without a camera ? I just need to find the right book or document or video to start the learning process. Thank you for your help.
@erniestvmovielocations 9 ай бұрын
does it cut through bodies with salt water, trees, bushes, cars, etc.
@curtisjudd 8 ай бұрын
This is not magical, no. I found the range to be more reliable for slightly longer distances as we covered in the video, but not magically able to cut through any barrier.
@itabs-auckland6547 2 жыл бұрын
This going to sound stupid, but could you us this with the rode wireless go 2s? Would this work?
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
No, wrong frequencies and no way to connect it to the receiver.
@itabs-auckland6547 2 жыл бұрын
@@curtisjudd thank you mate for your reply
@fanofnaturefilms486 2 жыл бұрын
What is uhf and vhf?
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Ultra High Frequency and Very High Frequency. They are just different parts of the electro-magnetic frequency range on which wireless communication takes place.
@fanofnaturefilms486 2 жыл бұрын
@@curtisjudd thank you , and by watching this video , I came into conclusion that if the wireless antenna is kept at a height it gives more transmitting distance, is that right?
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
@@fanofnaturefilms486 Probably yes, but worth testing as well.
@victorhugoaleman5202 Жыл бұрын
can you use that antenna in different brand for example in ears shue?
@curtisjudd Жыл бұрын
Yes, any diversity system where the receiver has two antenna inputs.
@HoundDogMech 2 жыл бұрын
Better off to buy a remote mic system that has a built in aux recorder too.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
That seems to be the trend except in the US where one company holds the patent on that.
@ELFMEDIA 2 жыл бұрын
Good solution. But many years all concerts, live TV shows using same rf systems without problems.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
@@ELFMEDIA In most cases with more than just whip antennae on the receivers.
@michaelscott9266 2 жыл бұрын
Out into the ether 🤔
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
Yep.
@GoldenTree-fy3zj 2 жыл бұрын
Not good with that powered antenna. Not much difference with whips. Good test, thanks.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
This is not a powered antenna. But it is more directional and provides two options for diversity receivers. It is better than the whip antennae.
@sugarcreekcoc Жыл бұрын
Time to add a new caption. Price is $599. 😮💨
@curtisjudd Жыл бұрын
Ok.
@cesarvega5715 Жыл бұрын
like
@curtisjudd Жыл бұрын
👍
@robertsaca3512 2 жыл бұрын
JUST FIGHT TONY ALREADY.
@curtisjudd 2 жыл бұрын
No fighting. I have no issues with Tony to fight about. 🙃
@robertsaca3512 2 жыл бұрын
@@curtisjudd I was only joking :)
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