Why Do Starship's Heat Tiles Keep Falling Off?

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Ellie in Space

Ellie in Space

2 ай бұрын

Post by Dr. Scott Walter describing why the Starship heat tiles may be falling off:
We learned a lot from examining the half dozen intact tiles that Nick was able to retrieve.
TL;DR: the attachment process is likely flawed, and not the tiles themselves. Here is why.
Nick recovered many fully intact tiles on the beach within days of the launch. He also found some shattered tiles, but those tiles had be run over by cars or trodden by horses on the beach. So it is not clear whether the tiles broke apart on the orbiter during launch, or later after impacting the water or when washed ashore.
Each tile is affixed to the orbiter with three fastener pins. These pins are welded to the orbiter skin, and not likely to easily break off. The suspicion has always been that where the pins affix to the tiles is the weak point. When under load either the tiles fracture, or the anchors rip out, as if in drywall.
But that does not seem to be the case. The image of the back of the intact tile shows the anchors neatly in place with no signs of damage.
Because the tiles were discovered so soon and so close to the launch site, they were likely shook loose from the vibrations of launch, or soon after from aerodynamic loading. If they were fragile, then they should have shattered, or the anchors torn loose. Apparently, they did not. Even after impacting the water (yes they are light, so likely floated down at low velocity), and being roiled in the surf.
If the fastener pins dislodged from the skin, then one would expect to see them still attached to the tiles. They are not. Plus if loading is enough to rip the pin welds off the orbiter, the tiles should have shown damage or the anchors failed ahead of that. Only intensive vibrations could account for that possibility. Not aerodynamic loads.
Mostly likely, where the fasteners clip onto the tiles is unclipping. Why is a mystery. We all know a clip fastener is nearly impossible to remove, and special tools and tricks are needed to unclip. And that's if a clip is even designed to unclip. These clips are likely design to be one-way. They go on, but you can't unclip them.
Could there be some strange vibrational mode that allows the clips to dislodge? Maybe. We know bolts untighten when under vibration, and is the reason for loctite. Still this usually requires a lot of time. To happen seconds or minutes after launch is indicative of an unknown failure mode. Or the clip heads of the fasteners are failing or snapping off.
The other likelihood, is the tiles were not properly snapped on. With 18,000 tiles packed tightly together, it may be difficult to verify proper installation of every tile. It could just be a quality assurance issue. It's really hard to see back there.
Another remote possibility, is that stacking, destacking, tanking and detanking, and thermal expansion are the culprits that start to wiggle the tiles loose prior to launch. Given the multiple attachment points, all the pins would need to cooperate in the process. If one is stubborn it should require the tile to fail, rather than simply slip its bonds.
Unfortunately, we do not yet know how the tiles will perform under the stresses of re-entry. I am confident from thermal management that they will do fine. But they can't do fine if they don't remain attached. We need to see if they are too fragile to survive re-entry loading. But if they can, then the problem may only be the fastener design. If so these tiles remains a viable solution in the near term for Starship until better alternatives are explored.
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Пікірлер: 200
@rays2506
@rays2506 2 ай бұрын
The reddish-orange stuff is silicone adhesive, not epoxy. The tile itself is composed of silicon dioxide (quartz, glass) fibers about 2 microns in diameter. A human hair is 70 microns in diameter. Those quartz fibers are chopped up in an industrial size Waring blender with distilled water, mixed with a ceramic adhesive, and cast into the desired shape of the tile (greenware). The top of the tile is coated with a black glass powder and then the tile is baked in a 2500F furnace until the ceramic adhesive is cured and the black glass glaze forms on the top (hot) side of the tile. The diameter of the quartz fiber is selected to match the peak of the blackbody radiation spectrum at the highest operating temperature for the tile (2400F for the Shuttle, and 2600F for Starship). The tiles used on the Shuttle are called LI-900 (Lockheed Insulation-900) and has a density of 9 pounds per cubic foot (144 kg/cubic meter). The density of quartz is 2650 kg/cubic meter. So, the LI-900 tile is 144/2650 = 0.0543 (5.43%) of the density of quartz, that is, the tile is 1-0.0543 = 0.946 (94.6%) empty space. So, the interior of the tile is a complex, random matrix of thin quartz fibers that backscatter the thermal radiation inside the tile about 500 times more efficiently that those high purity quartz fibers absorb that thermal radiation. That high-efficiency backscattering process (Mie scattering) the secret of the tile's very excellent thermal insulation properties. The Shuttle tiles were adhesively bonded to the aluminum hull of the Orbiter using aerospace-quality silicone adhesive. Those Shuttle tiles performed exactly as designed on 133 out of 135 entry, descent and landings (EDLs) of the Space Shuttle Orbiter. The other two Shuttle launches were the last launches of Challenger (Jan 1986) and Columbia (Feb 2003). The tiles were not involved in those two disasters. Side note: My lab spent two years (1969-70) developing and testing dozens of ceramic materials and manufacturing processes for the Shuttle tiles during the conceptual design period of that project.
@MicrobiusBlue
@MicrobiusBlue 2 ай бұрын
Nick will eventually have enough to attempt his own re-entry 🔥
@lukeamato423
@lukeamato423 Ай бұрын
With how they keep falling off I wouldn't attempt it.... Columbia only took 1
@jimtussing
@jimtussing 2 ай бұрын
Thanks Ellie! Your guest Scott Walter is terrific. Really appreciated the history lesson on reentry heat management!
@pebmets
@pebmets 2 ай бұрын
The issue with shuttle tiles was the orbiter was on the side of the stack, not the top. It was constantly getting hit by foam coming off the ET. The issue was more tile damage vs coming off as mentioned. Columbia had a debit hit on the leading edge on the wing, not because a tile fell off. If you look closely there are is a spot in each tile where they would inject a chemical, similar to scotchguard, into them so they would not absorb water to add weight.
@ross077
@ross077 2 ай бұрын
This discussion is great citizen science. It allows us to conclude that Starship heat tile design appears to be sound and that SpaceX may just need to improve the reliability of the installation process.
@just_archan
@just_archan 2 ай бұрын
SpaceX have/had test rings on site with much more denser pattern of clips, and there are photos with steel "mockups" attached. They were much smaller than current gen. So could be that next bath of starship will sport smaller tiles. I think also that is very likely that "mockups" will be actually attached to new gen tiles with some kind of adhesive or other Methode.
@LTV_inc
@LTV_inc 2 ай бұрын
Bullshit
@just_archan
@just_archan 2 ай бұрын
@@LTV_inc that what I wrote? Check NasaSpaceFlight. It was few weeks ago, don't remember exactly. I think also LabPadre, WAI, and Marcus House reported that.
@Jayenwoods
@Jayenwoods 2 ай бұрын
This has to be the most technical video I've seen from you Ellie, great work! There's nothing wrong with your other videos, they certainly provide an aspect to this stuff that the other channels don't, but it's great to see you grow and become more versatile in this space also 😃 Naturally great guests as well 😉
@zx1100a1
@zx1100a1 2 ай бұрын
Yay... good times Ellie. I watched the unedited version.
@knowledgeisgood9645
@knowledgeisgood9645 2 ай бұрын
Of the 18 000 tiles on a ship there are a few percent that are glued. Those are on curved areas like the nose and the flaps. They are also in parts were they are unable to weld the studs used for most tiles. Those sections are where 3, 4 and 5 ring sections are welded together. The welding is not precise enough to be sure that studs welded to one section are at the correct distance from studs on the opposite one. So, they are forced to glue those last. The thermal blankets are only under tiles using studs, not the ones they glue. Those are glued to the steel. They tested each tile with suction cups on S28 before it launched. That is why they did not lose as many tiles on that ship. They will be even more careful with S29 I am sure. I think losing a small number of tiles is fine. Losing batches of them would be bad. I hope they find a way to avoid using glue as much as possible. It is unreliable. But welding studs after welding sections is not trivial, but I think it could be done. Maybe even welding all sections together THEN welding all the studs (using robots of course). Or, improving the precision by which sections are welded together to make using studs practical. Also improvements in the design of studs and of the holes in the tiles might improve the system. But those will have to wait for the next versions of ships.
@olebloom1641
@olebloom1641 2 ай бұрын
Great guests and good info on the Space Shuttle heat tiles. Good possible explanations from Dr. Walter on why and how these tiles are falling off.
@colormaker5070
@colormaker5070 2 ай бұрын
Im sure once they finalize the tile design mounting tiles will be an automated process where they can also detect the click for the 3 point connection during installation. Maybe even stager the pin height of the 3 pins so it’s a click, click, click process. This was the best video so far on the tiles i’ve seen and the deep dive into the process. Thank you.
@BlazerRox
@BlazerRox 2 ай бұрын
As usual Ellies eyes are as mesmerizing as her awesome coverage of these topics :)
@connecticutaggie
@connecticutaggie 2 ай бұрын
Thanks Ellie, it was great learning more about the tiles and actually getting to see some. As an engineer I am super surprised SpaceX did not want to see the tiles. If the fasteners do attach to the tiles, I would think there would be tells (scratches) that would indicate how the pin detached and if they are glue attached, I would think the glue texture would give some indications of why the adhesion failed. Maybe the fact that they don't want to see them tells you something - that they already know why they are detaching. It is also interesting that they want time and location. Maybe what they want to know is when they fell off.
@pebmets
@pebmets 2 ай бұрын
Discovery, Atlantis, and Endeavour switched to thermal blankets for the top part of the orbiters instead of tiles to reduce weight. Columbia and Challenger had tiles in that area making them heavier than the other 3.
@jimtussing
@jimtussing 2 ай бұрын
They’re so light that winds probably play a huge role in gathering them.
@lordinquis8r679
@lordinquis8r679 2 ай бұрын
Thanks, Ellie! Loving your reporting.
@vinnylamoureux1187
@vinnylamoureux1187 2 ай бұрын
Yes. You go girl. The extra time you spend doing research and cultivating relationships with guys like Dr.Scott Walter is very well spent. After the research, you do a great job of spreading the knowledge. Don't give up. Don't dump your husband !!!!
@pshattuck1
@pshattuck1 2 ай бұрын
Great looking job with your eye makeup, Ellie!
@markhatch1267
@markhatch1267 2 ай бұрын
Having some direct experience with the phenomenon of vibrations and harmonics in light aircraft, air frame, and engine structures, I can understand how it will take a few iterations of real flight tests to understand the difference between calculated loads on the attachment points of the heat tiles, and the actual loads in flight, with all the vibrations and structural loads traversing across the skin of the ship in waves during flight. Also, there may still be some tweaks that need to be made to the manufactured attachment parts to get them to have the correct retaining force in actual practice. It looks like some kind of a spring clip that snaps into place when the tile is installed. It may very well take a few tries to get it just right.
@3ducs
@3ducs 2 ай бұрын
The problem I see with that is that the tiles are so light and weak, any spring clip incorporated in the tile would break the tile on installation. I surmise that a flexible glue, perhaps a high temperature silicone, is used to secure the tile on the pins.
@markhatch1267
@markhatch1267 2 ай бұрын
Did you not see the metal inserts in the tile Ellie & the young gentleman showed to us? There are 3 metal inserts each with a rectangular hole to receive the end of the support post.@@3ducs
@Ralpad1
@Ralpad1 2 ай бұрын
Great and knowledgeable report Ellie 👍
@irasthewarrior
@irasthewarrior 2 ай бұрын
Thank you for all the work you're doing.
@karlkarlsson9126
@karlkarlsson9126 2 ай бұрын
Love this coverage. I was a newb towards the tiles, now I understand a lot more.
@jbarvideo12
@jbarvideo12 2 ай бұрын
Thanks Ellie and Dr Scott Walter and the 3rd beach surveiller for your fascinating interview!
@tsamuel6224
@tsamuel6224 Ай бұрын
My vote is clip failure. Could be the tile has a ridge the clip grabs and one or the other has the wrong shape. Or needs a silicone rubber vibration damper. Also, you look great in that pink print dress. More of that dress and more pink please. Love.
@goulartaf66
@goulartaf66 2 ай бұрын
By the way, happy birthday, Ellie!
@guyosburn8858
@guyosburn8858 2 ай бұрын
Great Report! Lots of interesting information. Keep up the good work!
@techiheed1845
@techiheed1845 2 ай бұрын
Deep dive on the tiles. Very informative.
@JoeEvansTheSpineWizard
@JoeEvansTheSpineWizard 2 ай бұрын
The tiles need to snap in loosely to account for the pin's footing expanding during heat and cold cycles. Once they get re-entry heat soaked, they firm up and remain attached during the hottest part of the re-entry trajectory. Many are detaching during the wild vibrations experienced during launch. Vibration testing can work this out.
@joehinson
@joehinson 2 ай бұрын
Thank you for what you do. Keep up the great work
@DominicCast007
@DominicCast007 2 ай бұрын
Happy Birthday Day Ellie!! My mom's birthday too she would have been 81 🌹❤
@EdwardRLyons
@EdwardRLyons 2 ай бұрын
Some points about the heat shield: 1. Originally, Starship was not supposed to need one. 2. This is not a simple heat shield. It might not have the complexity of tile shapes that the Space Shuttle did, but Starship still has *many* different shapes and thicknesses. This increases production and installation costs. 3. SpaceX is learning the same lessons that NASA did with the Space Shuttle TPS: the tiles are *not* very robust; they *will* be damaged during launch, requiring replacement -- which requires maintenance -- which drives up costs -- and means rapid reuse is not possible; tiles that fall off *will* result in heat damage to the Starship structure, requiring repair and maintenance -- and possible destruction during reentry. (The Soviet Buran shuttle on its one and only flight also had tiles missing during reentry. This caused so much damage and warping to the vehicle structure that it was unlikely ever to have flown a second time, even if the Soviet shuttle programme had not collapsed.)
@taliaperkins1389
@taliaperkins1389 2 ай бұрын
19:47 No tile failed spontaneously or at all in the case of the Columbia disaster. It was a carbon-carbon leading edge broken by a chunk of tank insulation coated with ice which lead to the loss. Considering many Starship tiles would be "liberated" upon a vehicle disintegrating from either the FTS actuating or aerothermodynamic break up -- which one way or another has happened to every launched vehicle so far -- finding many on the beach does not indicate a general attachment problem exists. Only when a controlled reentry is undertaken and "holes" occur in the vehicle from EDL erosion would such be demonstrated.
@BRG9121
@BRG9121 2 ай бұрын
Much needed information! I think it's the fasteners as well.
@allanrose3661
@allanrose3661 2 ай бұрын
The tiles on the Space Shuttle mainly suffered from debris that came off the external tank and solid rocket boosters during launch. Tiles seldom just fell off and Nasa said about 100 had to be repaired or replaced after each mission. One mission had over 700 damaged tiles though.
@isaacplaysbass8568
@isaacplaysbass8568 2 ай бұрын
Thank you Ellie et al.
@flackanator1
@flackanator1 2 ай бұрын
Good show, thank you
@wesleyashley99
@wesleyashley99 2 ай бұрын
If they enter the exhaust plume on the way down they would get cooked pretty good. I saw some launch footage where a brite object was flying out from where the plume was blowing out after hitting the ground.
@angusmacgyver1390
@angusmacgyver1390 2 ай бұрын
It is possible that your friend Nick may have tiles from across all 3 launches, and those serials might help Space X identify which Starship and placement location on the Starship it was from. The large amount of debris found recently may be a combination from all 3 launches, (think like the plastic ocean patch floating around the ocean) more of the launch debris being washed on shore from the recent storms shortly after the last launch, more in line with DR Scott Walter's suggestion was addressing to the amount of debris out there and the close spacing of the finds so short after the recent launch
@robertmorris8786
@robertmorris8786 Ай бұрын
The issue with the tiles falling off. Is a result of smooth attachment pins instead of ribbed locking pins. Tiles being attached are pushed on to the pins for attachment to starship. But under maximum harmonic vibration through the pins the attachment clips in the tiles will stay open and have a tendency of sliding off smooth pins due to air pressure and vibrations. They're real easy solutions
@garyleonard8495
@garyleonard8495 2 ай бұрын
Thanks Ellie and yes I did enjoy this video very much 😊
@garybensman1358
@garybensman1358 2 ай бұрын
Happy birthday 🎉 Ellie! And may I say, "very, very Nice Presentation!"
@kensmith8832
@kensmith8832 2 ай бұрын
In drag racing, the exhaust pipes are fastened together with fasteners. Those fasteners are difficult to keep them from falling off as the temperature swings and moisture will destroy any spring washer and thread locker. There is a special screw and retainer that has to be used on the turbochargers. The headache is trying to apply a fastener in an area you can't easily access with tools. You want to use a snap on method, but the launch vibrations are enough to shake all the tile off. I would think about finding ways to heat the tiles to keep them from reaching temps below zero. Seems like a launch blanket might help protect the tiles during launch, if you don't shoot the birds.
@3ducs
@3ducs 2 ай бұрын
The tiles are very light and weak, very brittle. They are applied directly to the stainless steel skin of the vehicles and get chilled to probably well below 100 degrees below zero F. There is shrinkage of the ships' skins, the intense vibrations, the heating of the tiles on re-entry while the ships are still super chilled internally. The problems are huge but SpaceX has the best minds on the case.
@kensmith8832
@kensmith8832 2 ай бұрын
@@3ducs LOL! Methane boiling point is -259.6 degrees F, which means the tiles see temps much colder than you think. This is why NASA used insulation on the Shuttle main tank. SpaceX may have a bunch of people on the team, but not the best minds. Either get your facts right or go back to school. The cold causes the tiles to break, so insulating the tanks with 15" of foam would cause the tiles to be warmed. Maybe I need to simplify this to 5th grade science?
@3ducs
@3ducs 2 ай бұрын
@@kensmith8832 I knew it was colder than what I wrote, should've done the research. Makes the problems that much more difficult to address. Is this too big a reach? Is it solvable? Tune in for the next exciting episode!
@kensmith8832
@kensmith8832 2 ай бұрын
@@3ducs Quoting the 1960s Batman isn't going to gain you any brownie points! I remember the first moon walk, yeah, I am that old.
@3ducs
@3ducs 2 ай бұрын
@@kensmith8832 Huh? I worked on the lunar lander project early in my Federal career. I was with the Army Map Service, I carved 1-2,000 scale lunar lander training 3-D landing sites for their simulations. Yeah, I am that old.... The astronauts trained on maps I carved, but I'm happy you remember their walks.
@Spatial_Computer
@Spatial_Computer 2 ай бұрын
Usually during inspection of parts going through manufacturing an X would indicate a checked part or a bad part or problem area to focus on. In construction it is used for indicating what section of the material to remove.
@happysalesguy
@happysalesguy Ай бұрын
Fascinating!
@rocroc
@rocroc Ай бұрын
The reason the heat tiles are hexagonal in shape is so that the plasma generated over the craft does not flow in a straight line. The shape of the tile prevents the concentration of high temperatures.
@johnlynch5007
@johnlynch5007 2 ай бұрын
Thanks Elie
@David-he6uj
@David-he6uj 2 ай бұрын
As anyone who's strapped a load down in a pickup truck knows, you gotta slap it and say "that ain't going anywhere"
@wthharrison7233
@wthharrison7233 2 ай бұрын
Thank you.
@joakimlindblom8256
@joakimlindblom8256 2 ай бұрын
Nice discussion! A couple of comments: the analogy of heating on re-entry being like the heat from friction when rubbing your hands together isn't quite accurate -- most of the heating is actually from compression heating from hypersonic shock of the air in front of the surface, with the resulting heat then getting transferred to the surface of the vehicle. Also at 23:12 it mentioned that 90% of the heat is "reflected" from the black tile surface into space, which is not correct -- rather, the black surface when heated radiates the heat back into space via mostly infrared photons through the so called "black body" radiation mechanism (if you wanted to reflect photons you would instead make the surface white, or even better, reflectively shiny like mirror).
@AKUSUXs
@AKUSUXs Ай бұрын
This is cool. I actually have a piece of the shuttle heat tiles.
@zagabog
@zagabog 2 ай бұрын
Has there been any recovery of the underlying felt pads? Perhaps having fallen into the sea they absorb water and fall to the bottom.
@georgejenkins8063
@georgejenkins8063 2 ай бұрын
If the pins are the why not design a new pin ?? Seems simple to me...??!! Thanks Ellie !! Great show... As always... !!
@ohiopat8517
@ohiopat8517 2 ай бұрын
Can't wait for my IFT 3 shirt to get here!!!
@schrodingerscat1863
@schrodingerscat1863 Ай бұрын
Each launch so far has lost significantly less tiles so the improvements implemented so far are a big improvement though still not quite there.
@Asterra2
@Asterra2 2 ай бұрын
I used to be able to hand-wavingly say that it's because they still use glue on some of the tiles, as the glued areas are where 90% of the fallen tiles come from. But IFT3 didn't seem to have this problem, so maybe they figured out something important.
@thomassee6183
@thomassee6183 2 ай бұрын
I've had the question of why these tiles aren't interlocking. They would benefit from the strength of adhesion from neighboring tiles to hold in place. I understand there are other factors involved in the overall decision as to how they are mounted but I would think even a small plate adhered to the bottom of a tile or a lip manufactured into a tile that catches under an adjacent tile would help with overall strength and stability
@MadmaxMusic93
@MadmaxMusic93 2 ай бұрын
Nice job Ellie 🥰😘😘
@roger7341
@roger7341 2 ай бұрын
The Starship is not a solid cylinder but a flexible tube with multiple vibrational modes. Under heavy loading, first from 33 blasting rocket engines, and then from six additional blasting rocket engines, various of these modes may be excited, causing the surface under the attached tiles to rapidly deform. The vibrational accelerations and forces may be high enough to loosen some of the tiles and cause some to fall off. I'm sure that each successive test will provide more data to help the engineers identify and correct the problems.
@waterlife.1905
@waterlife.1905 2 ай бұрын
Harmonics and standing waves on the skin of Starship from the launch at a fixed point on the pad and then the waves evolve some during the ascent due to changing distance to the ground and the reflections of.
@myyklmax
@myyklmax 2 ай бұрын
Some reasons why the Starship Hear Tile fall off; * The tiles are made of a very light substance - Silica (glass), the absorbs heat quickly and radiates is quickly while still remain touchable. * The tile are mounted onto the Starship on mounting pins that should lock onto claps set into the back of the tiles. * Because the tiles are light, they are susceptible to engine vibration and high winds dislodging them (both issues prevalent during testing and launches). * It is uncertain is there is a heat resistant adhesive that can help glue the tile to the Starship fuselage and control flaps.
@garybensman1358
@garybensman1358 2 ай бұрын
Are you seeing any of the attachment pens broken off and in the holes of the tiles?
@ChrisBullock1978
@ChrisBullock1978 2 ай бұрын
one last question what type of power souce would be needed to create a magnetic shield that goes to the side of starship. Just wondering if we can overcome heat
@michaelpartsch1296
@michaelpartsch1296 Ай бұрын
I would wrap a foil around the Starship preventing tiles from fallen apart. While reentering the foil would melt and all tiles are still at their place.
@johnhinkey5336
@johnhinkey5336 2 ай бұрын
I believe the shuttle black tiles don't "reflect" the heat, they efficiently radiate the heat that has been convected to their surface by the high speed air.
@STxFisherman
@STxFisherman 2 ай бұрын
Cool video. I'm curious about how brittle the shields are. Do you think that the heat shield would break into a few pieces if you dropped it on the floor?
@andyalder7910
@andyalder7910 2 ай бұрын
Dropped my 2"x3" bit onto concrete it didn't damage it, was probably at terminal velocity because they're so light. A lot of the tiles on the beach were run over by trucks and that did break them.
@soal159
@soal159 2 ай бұрын
They could use hooks to fasten the tiles on Starship. the vibrations wouldn't jostle the tiles off unlike adhesive which could break complete off during ignition, assent, pressure and force.
@williamgrimberg2510
@williamgrimberg2510 2 ай бұрын
Do they use any heat shielding on the reusable protective second stage covers that Space X recovers from the other rockets . These recoverable covers might make a good test bed for different tile designs even if they aren’t necessarily meant for these covers .
@blengi
@blengi 2 ай бұрын
why can't they have some tilebots that replace lost tiles in orbit which shimmy along the tile interstitials or some such?
@thechessman21able
@thechessman21able 2 ай бұрын
Seems like they need a better way to attach the tiles
@yorinov2001
@yorinov2001 2 ай бұрын
the shuttle tiles were attached to the airframe, starship tiles are attached directly to the fuel tanks ... heat, cold, expansion, contraction, flexing...
@chrisofnottingham
@chrisofnottingham 2 ай бұрын
I know there are tiles that come off at launch now but for reentry the basic problem is we don't have a 17,000 mph wind tunnel to test them in.
@Oblivionsurveyor
@Oblivionsurveyor 2 ай бұрын
I believe the problem is that they are trying to form the tiles to fit the ship instead of forming the surface of the ship to form to the tiles. There is NO reason the metal surface where the tiles are mounted has to be a smooth surface. There are shapes they can use that won't break the tile with expansion and contraction. I believe once they realize mounting them to a flat surface with pins is not the answer i think they will change the design. For example where the metal pins are, if the pin locations also had a rounded recess and the tile will also have a rounded protrusion to fit in that recess where the pin mounts are. The round shape will allow the tiles to still expand and contract as needed and give it extra structural integrity.
@freetodive
@freetodive Ай бұрын
From my tiles, I see pulling damage from the clip. Maybe good idea to use the bonding glue as well
@johnchapman5153
@johnchapman5153 2 ай бұрын
Isn’t the white handwritten text on the black side actually saying, “OK” with an underline? I understand that was added to tiles after successful insitu testing. I think I heard that in a NASASpaceflight video.
@GBCobber
@GBCobber 2 ай бұрын
Develop and incorporate steel velcro washers around the pins. A simple straight wire with barbs rather than hooks and for the base you could incorporate fine wire into the felt layer for the barbs to latch onto, assuming that felt layer is also held down by a one way washer on the pins. Hell, just let me at it. I'll fix it.
@gracerodgers8952
@gracerodgers8952 2 ай бұрын
Expansion anchors? Anyway good work, Eliana happiest birthday 🎉🎂❤
@dalehensley7830
@dalehensley7830 2 ай бұрын
I have been trying to make a point for months now. I wish I could actually talk to someone that matters. Those tiles are going through so much before launch. Stack and destack so many times travel up and down the road they are being jostled all over the place for weeks. I was surprised not to see them falling off more often until launch 3, during reentry they were falling from everywhere. They need to make the tile placement last thing. Once tests are done and the ship is ready for launch then place the tiles before final stack.
@stratolestele7611
@stratolestele7611 2 ай бұрын
No need to baby them on the ground. They have to be robust enough to handle much more than being moved around at Starbase.
@dalehensley7830
@dalehensley7830 2 ай бұрын
@stratolestele7611 oh I agree they don't need to be babied at all. But the adhesive technics they are using are not structurally sound to handle all the up and down and travel and then with stand the vibrations of engine tests and such. Then to top it off go through liftoff. So no I don't mean baby the things, but give the system it's optimal chance. Not see how well they travel on Earth.
@nedflanders3769
@nedflanders3769 2 ай бұрын
Ellie, were the pink tiles in the background just coincidence or planned? 😅
@michaelfink64
@michaelfink64 2 ай бұрын
650°K is only 710°F. That would be well short of what is needed to be protected against during re-erntry.
@zarl5238
@zarl5238 2 ай бұрын
Thank u Ellie for another informative video. Now here r a couple of 'dumb?' questions-Has SpaceX experimented with making a blanket to fit over large areas of the Starship- Or dipping the Starship into some kind of tile bath??
@Ravenought69
@Ravenought69 2 ай бұрын
Subscriber watch: Happy to see your subscriptions go up again. Cant wait to see 100000. Hope you throw a party than Ellie.
@wugalar
@wugalar 2 ай бұрын
Yeah, but why do the heat tiles keep coming off? It's probably the attachment method but we're talking about spacex engineers who would have no trouble designing a no-fail method for fixing two objects together, so what's the problem yeah? Obviously there is something problematic with attaching a necessarily delicate part to the ship. The tiles need to move to handle thermal deviation and can't be too close to each other or they breach each other but also not have too large a gap to let in heat. It seems a catch 22 problem. No one can figure out a way to fix a brittle tile (from the outside) that creates a heat seal and at the same time accommodate shift and vibration etc. They are attached with steel pins, so why do the heat tiles keep coming off Dr Scott Walter? How would you do it? If there was a way you could attach these things and know for sure they wouldn't, couldn't ever come off ie the ship more likely to RUD than losing its heat seal that would be very nice thank you very much
@Lion_McLionhead
@Lion_McLionhead 2 ай бұрын
Predicting these go to magnetically actuated latches.
@Kelnx
@Kelnx 2 ай бұрын
It would have been difficult with the shuttle, but the Starship is cylindrical, so why don't they simply put a wrap around it to keep the tiles on during launch? The wrap can burn off quickly on reentry since it's expendable but might prevent any tiles from flying off before reentry. During reentry the tiles would stay on simply due to the force of the air pushing against them. Shouldn't add much mass to do this I wouldn't think and I don't think the momentary flash of fire when the wrap burns away is going to damage anything.
@ScooterMcGee-iy1pu
@ScooterMcGee-iy1pu 2 ай бұрын
Super Glue and baking soda - saw it on KZfaq.
@ghost307
@ghost307 2 ай бұрын
SpaceX not demanding the tiles be returned is a very good move. If people know that giving information to SpaceX would lead to confiscation of their souvenir, they would lose a potentially valuable source of information.
@richhagenchicago
@richhagenchicago 2 ай бұрын
I tend to mark things when they pass each stage of inspection.
@stevepirie8130
@stevepirie8130 2 ай бұрын
On shuttle they were glued to a membrane so any flexing of the ship the energy didn’t go to the tiles. Being aluminium it was critical not to lose tiles whereas starship is steel and less so.
@sagecoach
@sagecoach 2 ай бұрын
SpaceX looked at micro-holes all over the stainless steel sweating fuel to cool the heat and perhaps produce a plasma shield effect. There are large areas that are empty space and not fuel tanks, a problem even if did work.
@brilliant-handle
@brilliant-handle 2 ай бұрын
Tiles are probably fitting too tightly. Any flex from vibration or thermal cycling would cause them impinge on eachother and break free of their pins. They need a felt in between the tiles as well as behind
@andyalder7910
@andyalder7910 2 ай бұрын
There's an expansion gap in between them.
@georgejackson4105
@georgejackson4105 2 ай бұрын
Couldn't you create some kind of surface mounted tile locking mechanism, based off some kind of kid's toy, such as Lego, or something similar, to enable the tiles to remain locked in place?
@joelhageman1903
@joelhageman1903 2 ай бұрын
Contiguous flexibility has got to be it. I keep thinking flexible sheets would be best. But once a corner came loose in that kind of flow, the whole thing would go, leaving a considerable exposed area. So they'd have to be smaller. Some sort of aerodynamic design, airfoil effect, that hugs the hull at higher speeds like F1 racecar down force? How about growing a complex fiber mesh, carpet, like a fleece jacket, that maintains a protective separating air layer but also expands and contracts? Single fibers wouldn't take the whole layer off. Reed bends. Trees fall. That's where you need your superconducting graphite threads, off the shelf purchase at Home Depot. I know what: how about treated steel that doesn't melt? Very nifty stuff. Alchemy would be good.
@johnhogan6588
@johnhogan6588 2 ай бұрын
Happy birthday
@blackbirdpie217
@blackbirdpie217 2 ай бұрын
The heat of reentry is not due to friction with the air. It is generated by hyper velocity compression. This is the same phenomenon that ignites the fuel in a diesel engine. At hyper velocity the air cannot be displaced fast enoug and ends up being compressed along the frontal area.
@Laszlo34
@Laszlo34 Ай бұрын
I was around for the shuttle and its heat tile woes. Man, what a frustrating problem! Decades later SpaceX still struggling to find a complete solution. It's tough because any additional mechanism you add to hold them more firmly is likely to require additional parts (cost), materials (weight), and complexity (failures). If I had some brilliant idea, I'd be happy to share it with them. But what do I know? I just do the soffwarez.
@lyfandeth
@lyfandeth 2 ай бұрын
Most cities and counties have "lost property" laws. If the value exceeds a set amount, you need to leave it with the police for a year, in case the owner claims it. There may also be aviation laws regarding lost parts or materials lost or ejected, which then toll pollution laws. Lots to look into if SpaceX doesn't formally tell them to keep it.
@Tinman_56
@Tinman_56 2 ай бұрын
Heat tiles are cool 😎. Heat tiles are hot! 🔥 Two different sentences with the exact same meaning !😊
@michaelfink64
@michaelfink64 2 ай бұрын
I think the writing on the black side of the tiles is "ok" rather than "09". You see this written on the tiles after they have been checked and deemed ok.
@Sailor376also
@Sailor376also 2 ай бұрын
In the footage, re-entry over the Indian Ocean I saw one of the tiles fall off Check the video carefully.
@michaelhess4825
@michaelhess4825 2 ай бұрын
I don't see the IFT3 shirt in the store!
@KaiseruSoze
@KaiseruSoze 2 ай бұрын
they need to do an x-ray with a vision system (doesn't even need to be AI) that compares every attachment point against a good picture. The image difference will point out where the failures are.
@Private-GtngxNMBKvYzXyPq
@Private-GtngxNMBKvYzXyPq 2 ай бұрын
If I had to hazard a guess, I’d look first at what happens if the clips are chilled to very low temperatures due to the temperature in the tanks, but the tiles remain at near ambient temperature due to low thermal conductivity. That might result in a condition where some clips can loosen. Just my completely uninformed speculation.
@Rorschach1024
@Rorschach1024 2 ай бұрын
I expect the issue is ice formation between the tiles and the tank walls.
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