2015 wotc: llanowar elves is too strong for standard. 2019 wotc: here's every ug ramp spell we can think of.

This was a really fun cast. Have Crim on again sometime please, you guys have a great back and forth.

15 lands per turn, play cards for free, it flies, tramples and walks your dog.... Me:

I think it's pretty telling that watching games of Old School Magic, with the Power 9 running around but only Serra Angels, Sengir Vampires, and Shivan Dragons as creatures, feels a lot more balanced and enjoyable than watching games of Standard where someone makes 40 Scute Swarms and Genesis Ultimatium'd twice by turn five.

Free spells and fast mana being bad things is a lesson they could have learned a hundred times by now.

how weird must it have been when Crim found his old English teacher became a big youtuber

One problem is that so much of standard is 'immediately answer or die' . Opponent plays Omnath, escapes Uro, Elder Garg, Terror of Peaks, etc... you better kill it immediately or lose. That works as far as gameplay, but it means that players get frustrated as historically you could actually 'come back' from behind. There is no coming back when behind in today's standard.

Damn. I knew Crim since grade school. Glad to have him here!

lol. “Are you still doing the teaching thing?” Prof: “no, are you still a student?”

I remember on MTGA I was so pissed off by everyone playing the same decks on ranked so I put together a deck with literally just counter spells and removal so whoever I matched up against would just spend the whole game not being able to play anything or having creatures die as soon as they etb. Games usually ended by someone conceding or being milled out. I too hate myself.

Cards don't need to be powerful to be fun. Become more creative, not more liberal with power level.

“Why does standard suck?” Short answer: Uro. Long answer: as MaRo and other designers have stated they wanted to be more experimental but to compensate they would be more liberal with the banlist. The problem is that they put too many experimental cards out at one time. If they put out 1 of these cards out at a time then it would be fine, but they got too excited and put 4-5 in each set and if you ban all of them then there aren’t any payoffs in the format

The problem with the whole giving wildcards to mitigate the impact of bans is when you have a powerful card you build around you're probably also crafting other rare/mythics that support that card. So then a ban comes, they give you four wildcards, and then you're left with eight or twelve rare/mythics that you've crafted that are now useless to you. Of course it's much worse in paper, won't even get into that, but they are seemingly giving themselves more rope to make over powered cards because they suppose they can limit the negatives of bans on Arena and I don't think that's really true.

Standard being a trainwreck is one thing, but when the broken cards they keep printing massively shake up Modern with every new set, that's where the fun stops for me. How many decks have died for Hogaak's, Oko's, Urza's and Uro's sins?

"Magic cards have lot of text on them" YGO player pulling out "Endymion the Mighty Master of Magic": oh my sweet summer child.

Wizards, if you're reading this, we desperately need a way to interact with TRIGGERED abilities!! Give us a pithing needle, but for triggered abilities. Power should come with contingency. If you want an overwhelmingly powerful card, there needs to be a deck building constraint. Build Standard for standard, but know how every card is going to affect eternal formats and consider their health.

Prof walks in with his fancy teacher suit Crim: “Hold my beer”

I think the fall of Standard can be attributed, partially, to the end of the 3 block set. Its no surprise the Khans was the last high point for standard, seeing as that was the last time we had standard fetchlands and the cohesion in design with multiple connected blocks. If RnD was allowed to design with that year's "meta" in mind, and go for a curved escalation that the 3 block pattern would allow, not every set would have to be "the best set ever" and build on its prior sets roots

I dont understand when people say the power level of Ixalan was boring. People were ramping out Carnage Tyrants and Ghaltas on turn 5 and 6, Rekindling Phoenix was absurdly powerful and dificult to answer, they banned Rampaging Ferocidon! Azcanta was absurdly good in control decks and played to the last day of rotation. GRN standard was good because of Ixalan and Dominaria, and because on Arena we didnt have Kaladesh and Amonkhet, which were significantly more powerful sets. I do agree that M21 is a great set, the most fun set since GRN. But id rather have a meta somewhere between Ixalan and M21 then between even M21 and ZNR.

Looking back longingly for fetches in standard makes me think you forget how they made so many 4 color goodstuffs, which made many decks play similar rares and mythics so, in combination with the PRICE OF FETCHES, doubled the price of playing a good standard deck! RTR-THS, for someone who was in college, was so much better.

I liked standard when I first started playing, but all of my friends just play Commander and now that Pioneer is a thing I just don’t see the point in playing standard anymore.

It's simple: Standard can't handle cards with EDH level scaling. And it's glorious.

Wow. As a Yugioh Player this hurts way too much, since this us basically happening for like 10-15 years in YGO. WITHOUT rotation of course and the powercreep is insane. For all of you that maybe played YGO in the past, just check out "Red Eyes Dark Dragoon"

I started right after core 19. At that time I remember playing against Nexus of fate and not playing magic. This is where, to me, the decline began, but I was bright eyed and I didn't have the history of magic pre Amonkhet and those sets. When rotation hit, I found that I could still build some fun decks like dragons, zombies, jank, and take it to an FNM or sunday event and had fun. Even if I didn't win, I played against a variety of decks. Fast forward to Ravnica and War. I haven't been able to really build a deck that I want to play for fun because I get matched up with decks that are just competitive because they are 70% of the meta. Casual events don't need to be overly competitive. But now, even on arena, I find that if i want to try stuff, I am stuck having to either play a top tier deck or play against them every game. I guess, for a relatively new magic player, I am sad. I love cracking packs, building fun decks with friends, but standard is just not fun anymore. EDH has been a good format, but I also like being competetive for prizes and stuff like that. But the format is not fun, I don't want to invest in a deck I don't enjoy, but also I don't want to invest in a card that may be banned next week. I miss cracking packs, the thrill of pulling stuff for a deck that I could build and take to a tournament or store event. I am just losing the desire to buy packs. ZNR gave me hope, I didn't even buy core 21. It seems that things won't change though. All in all, this was an awesome podcast! I love your info but the dynamic here is so good! Keep doing these!!!

And then the Omnath, Four-colored Nation attacked

I believe that the reason that standard keeps failing, its because they keep printing overpowered cards that eventually will get banned because they get played in +50% of the games, so if you have a non-tier1 idea for a standard deck, probably will get stomped by a tier1 deck, so they are not as many options as other formats have. 39:38 that's not actually true, because MTGArena/Hearthstone/LoR can do the patch and fix the issue, but if we go back, just check when WOTC decided to change Companion ENTIRELY and even with cards that have Companion described on the reminder text, and now those players have to actually go to gatherer and look that "Companion" doesn't do what it says on the card, but what it says on the website.

Standard gradually becomes Yu-Gi-Oh

Prof: "by the way crim, make sure you are dressed for the occasion" Crim: "OK, what do you suggest?" Prof: "dress the way *YOU* think is cool but you know you wouldn't dress like it in an actual interview" Crim: "got it, I have just the suit for this!"

God what an open. That was incredible.

One could even posit that “companion” was banned, although not directly. The best word would be nerf I suppose, but regardless it’s a reflection of the health of standard and the relationship between printed cards in concept and their impact on standard as a format.

This was truly helpful. The one thing that won't age well is the Zendikar talk. For those that don't know, 4c Omnath players have started cutting Uro from their decks because they don't feel they need it anymore (CGB is a specific example). Congratulations Wizards, you created a standard that Out-Powered Uro.

It's just so insane to me that only a year and a half ago the Pro Tour Allegiance had 6 different decks in the top 8. The most played deck of the tournament (Sultai Explore) didn't even make the top 8 and the 2nd most played (Nexus) only had 1. Polar opposite nowadays. The deck that's 60% of the field tend to have at least 6 or so in the top 8.

It really sounds like yugiohs issues invaded magic

Me: Well, with rotation behind us, hopefully standard can finally return to normal... Standard: *Scute *Scute *Scute *Scute *Scute *Scute *Scute *Scute *Scute *Scute *Scute *Scute *Scute *Scute *Scute Me: Scoop.

43 minutes and not a single mention of Lurrus or Yorion, and that whole mess. Funny.

>Magic cards have a lot of text Me, a former YGO player: Oh, you sweet summer child.

i dont even play magic, i just watch this for the professor.

My favorite standard was INN-RTR. Was perfect imo. Tons of viable decks in all archtypes of good powerlevels

It was the fact that I started playing during Khans that I fell in love with the game. Hooo my god I miss those times. As somebody who enjoys every color of the color pie because of the multitude of unique strategies, I loved that time and want to recapture it SO badly

The pumpkin suit and Beetlejuice tie is quite the outfit.

The thing is they've messed up standard so much that it will take years to fix. They would need like 5 powered down sets in a row to slowly fix it. Too fast and the sets don't sell like Kamigawa , too slow and the problem doesn't go away fast enough. I worry that we've gone too far and each set is going to power up just to sell packs.

The Asian Avenger has returned!! And standard does suck

I'm a jank homebrewer, and Standard for the longest time has been hostile to brewing. In GoR Standard I made a 5 colour dragon deck, and it worked. I was able to pull spots at FNMs, and win-a-box nights. Now if you don't play a meta deck you pretty much lose at matching.

Prof went the entire vid without commenting on Crim’s outfit. Now that’s professionalism.

They print stupid cards, they get stupid standard 🤷‍♂️

Really loved the chemistry between former pupil and teacher. Felt very real. Also, I wanna cosplay as David S. Pumpkin as well lol

I love how Wizards tried to print an answer to ramp in "Confounding Conundrum", but every time it's been played against my Omnath deck it was just a ton of free triggers.

The irony of this stuff being discussed with 4c omnath on the horizon is palpable

"You love Teferi Time Raveler?" "Get Out" XD

"How's standard lately?" "It sucks."

Remember when Shivan Dragon and Serra Angel were exciting? Man... that was a fun time.

When the prof talks about how the game gets stalled out, I think that's true of a lot of standard, but also a specific problem with the Omnath deck in particular. When Omnath stars firing off, there's still probably a 15- to 25% chance (depending on the deck) that the other player could win! But you are going to have to sit through a couple of 15min turns to get to that point of finding out, and that isn't fun at all.

"It sucks" ... queue intro music... legit made my day.

I quit standard and arena just 2-3 weeks after Eldraine, now I can't get in even if i wanted to, because I have to spend another 500 to make more than 1 deck.

That banned list graphic was wild. Just JTMS and SFM in ten years vs…everything.

I literally searched for one of your videos on this subject last night, what great timing!

I remember watching Modern Jund getting beaten to shit by a UG Standard deck. Pretty much sums up the problem with Standard.

WAIT A SECOND, THAT'S A DAVID S. PUMPKINS COSTUME!

"Get the hell out" = priceless. This was a thoughtful and thought-provoking episode. Thank you.

Even if the topic of a video isn't one I'm interested in, I always gotta click to see if there's a skit. Love it!

I watched a video of yours from a few years back on the benefits of Double Sleaving and it said how these days even Standard decks are double sleaved because some are nearly $100 now. Flash forward about five years and YIKES.

The big thing about trying to chase Hearthstone is it will probably end up a lot like everyone who tried to be "the WOW Killer." That is, as dead as all the card games who tried to copy paper Magic.

I think part of the problem is the shift in focus to digital, which almost always causes the game involved to be changed to be more "flashy" and "fun to watch" in order to use streamers as a free advertising service.

Listening to this conversation was so fun! Thank you Prof & Crim!!

I refuse to play a rotating format when cards cost as much as they do.

Zo-zu... Zo-zu punishes ramp. Zo-zu is the punisher. Zo-zu is the way

I know this is late, but I'm excited to have Crim here! I'd love to see Tomer , Seth, or Richard too if you all ever get the chance. I would also love to get some cube members of the cube community on your podcasts. The cast of Solely Singleton or Cultic Cube would be excellent! Thanks for always making excellent content and being a good steward of this community!

*Crim talking about the text on Nicol Bolas in arena* Yu-Gi-Oh players & Endymion: allow us to introduce ourselves

Khans of tarkir was an amazing time to be playing standard

It's Crim! I love him so much!

Great work! Entertaining while being thought-provoking. And a bit of heart warmth. :)

Love these Untitled podcast vids! Thanks for having The Asian Avenger! Love his content and energy!!

Standard still sucks after rotation. Omnath is broken. All the cards that let you cheat mana are broken. Planeswalkers are fun suckers. I thought I was playing a one versus one game, but my opponent has 3 planeswalkers. So now it’s a one versus four. And I have to beat the planewalkers before my real opponent because they have win cons as their bottom ability. After Khans is when I stopped playing paper Magic. That time was so fun! I played Dimir dragon control.

Reintroduce islandwalk etc, then introduce color themed settle the wreckage/anti walk card

Crim: you have these cards that do everything... Omnath: *lurks in the background*

Great episode!!! If only Crim knew what is waiting for him in Zendikar.

The problem with standard is it's been an onion of misery. Each ban just revealed another problem deck that was oppressive as the deck before it. The other issue is some of the bans just danced around the problem cards. There is simply too much degenerate cards being suppressed by more degenerate cards.

Why is Krim dressed as David S. Pumpkins?

It's so cool to see the Shannara books on your shelf. I have been a fan of his since the early 80's. (Yes, I know I'm old...but new to magic)

Come for the content and stay for the great bits that you always do. Love it all

That’s really the sum of it: Grindy games where you can see your loss coming from a mile away and you’re just hoping to heart of the cards some garbage answer to a loop you can’t stop. 28:20 was too true. Anything on the board now is a game ender. I never feel like I have enough kill spells just to stay afloat

As someone who started playing right after Eldraine released, I...agree with what's being said. There are too many spells that let you cast big spells for super cheap or nothing at all. I admit, I like ramping, I'm settling in nicely as a Green mage, but I agree that ramp needs a downside, in that ramp spells and mana dorks should be terrible draws late in the game. And...as a result, landfall was a mistake to print at this point. Uro just got banned, but then reviving a mechanic that rewards ramp at any stage of the game is just...idiotic. Also part of why Field of the Dead was a bad card. Ramp should not be its own reward, especially in a format that ramps so readily. And Standard has...yeah, sucked the whole time I've played. Teferi, Time Raveler shutting off counter magic meant counter control was dead, and its been slow to return because unless you start countering early, ramp can just outvalue you by having more mana and a bunch of crazy ETB effects. Ramp being so efficient meant that only hyper-efficient aggro could be viable, so only one aggro deck was played with much prevalence for a long time, and it got boring to play against. You were either ramping, or trying to go under the ramp (because there is no going over the current ramp). Every deck had to be efficient enough to compete with ramp, which meant only small selection of decks saw play. I also think Arena's increasing prevalence during the outbreak, along with its wildcard system, means that netdecking has become quite prolific, which again diminishes the variety in Standard. The fact that rare cards are legitimately rare in casual paper magic is important. I mean, for crying out loud, we got a 4 mana enchantment in Ikoria that gives every spell* delve, and that wasn't even worth playing. The heck.

Great episode. I don't even play Magic anymore, but I really enjoyed your breakdown of it. Crim was a great guest.

I really like the chemistry between these two, I love vince and prof together but then always agreeing on everything can get old, but these two disagree on enough while not being too much

Hey Wizards, a way to fix standard: stop making cards that draw, ramp, gain life, AND make a creature threat simultaneously for 4 or less mana. Just choose two of those things at a time and we're good.

I remember being sad when I pulled two Lutri's from my Ikoria box. Especially since I'm exclusively an EDH player.

I recall from the late 90s loads of magazine adds for other card games that would generally be themed like "zero banned cards". Of course, many of those games had errata to keep up with. But it did allow them to alter their flagship cards without fear of it being a dead pull in a pack. Decipher and AEG were notorious for this.

Really hit the nail on the head with this one. Ramp without opportunity cost throws off MtG's resource mechanics.

I've started playing recently after a 10 year break, and honestly I have a really rough time playing standard. I don't want to play the meta Uro/adventure (and inevitable Omnath) decks so I try to play what I like, (mono white/boros/urzhov) and I put a lot of money into making these (basic) decks and I just get absolutely thrashed and it's just really deflating especially due to the fact that this game's barrier to entry is so high :/

Asian Avenger is killing the David S. Pumpkins Look

Great episode! I agree with most of this. Especially that everything has to be answered right away and even that is almost never enough. As usual when magic sucks, answers/reactive cards are too weak compared to threats/proactive cards. But one thing I want to say is: I personally hated later khans standard of 4.5 colour good stuff piles. I like colour to matter in the magic I play.

great video prof, shame on the algorithm for only reccomending it to me now. also the bit at 41:27 was brilliant. i only started playing a year and a half ago and one of the first cards i packed was a finale of devastation and i had utterly now idea how it worked, even my friends who had been playing for a few months longer than me hadn't a clue

I'm listening to him be so excited for Zendikar Rising, it's almost a sad irony compared to where ZNR Standard _actually_ is.

Here’s an interesting exercise : go read through early articles on Rosewater’s “Making Magic” column (dates back to 2002). It’s interesting how conscientious even he was of design’s ability to break the game if they got a little too far out with their ideas. I think some irony in all of this too, is that since they’ll never reprint fetchlands into standard, so much of power push feels like an attempt to compensate for their absence. Great work as always!

I love how Crim just talks about mana doubling when we are already at mana tripling!

Mirrodin the set i started with is one of my all time favorites. Plenty of artifacts, free spells but had the balance for it. Affinity was amazing

This guy is cool, should have him on more

Prof: You loved Teferi Time Raveler??? Crim: I loved it so much at the beginni- Prof: GET OUT. 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

Hi! My favorite set is Shadows Over Innistrad. It was the set that got me into mtg and I remember how much fun I had building terrible decks out of my favorite cards from it.

I remember back when Return to Return to Innistrad happened, I could just play a Midrange Eldrazi pile because the cards were pushed, but not unbeatable when cast. However, Gideon Ally of Zendikar was a nightmare