"Many Magic the Gathering players ask the question" has the same impact as "Hey Vsauce, Michael here!" when I hear it.

I don't like that an argument about whether or not something is too strong begins with "Players don't play them because they're too strong".

Pretty sure Worldfire is banned because there is a precident for banning cards that make game actions pointless. Scharazhad, Worldfire, etc. Those cards say "Ignore the whole game that just happened" and that's not fun.

"A lot of people will put Vorinclex or Iona into their decks not realizing..." No. Nobody puts these cards into their decks without realizing their impact on play, they put them in specifically for that impact. Ditto for every other part of the Praetor cycle. Interact, play through it, or otherwise learn to dodge it. You want a powerful card? Look at Solemnity, a card that can drive multiple engines concurrently, and breaking it only slows most of those engines down until they can otherwise recover. Also, cascade is a cast trigger... You don't need to resolve the Apex Devastator for maximum effect, you just need to cast it with sufficient deck-ordering manipulation, and by "sufficient" I really mean "any."

Sounds like the perspectives from two strictly different playgroups: Some groups think Chulane is completely busted, the group I'm in think the exact opposite - that Chulane is hard to win with. Charlotte first says Recurring Nightmare looks fair until you watch someone who knows how to play it, while the Professor can't remark that anyone he's played with would want the card if it were unbanned. The difference here is not just skill or card evaluation, but also the needs of the playgroup. Cards aren't overpowered, you just have a misaligned playgroup.

I feel like Smothering Tithe wouldn’t be so prevalent if it’s mana cost was 1WWW.

There’s just an imbalance of what is and isn’t able to be discussed under rule 0. A lot more people are ready and able to say “ NO MLD”. Meanwhile no one likes talking about Telling the Simic and green players to stop playing their Land matter decks. Its lead to the majority of players dead set believing that commander is nothing but ramp and card draw and no one wants to take responsibility for it because no one wants to be “THAT” guy.

I'm amused by how they spend little time on actually powerful cards, and instead focus on un-fun effects. Don't get me wrong, that's a real conversation that's worth having, but it isn't the same as asking what is too powerful. If you want to talk about powerful alt win cons, talk about Thassa's Oracle not Coalition Victory. This feels like a conversation that got off track and didn't address the original question, instead re-treading already well-worn ground.

+1 for the textless guild signets !

"They printed a Merfolk that was actually good." What I'd give to hear Alex Borteh to respond to that...

Sorry but, white needs about 10 more cards that are Smothering Tithe levels of powerful to catch up to the other non-red colors.

"There's only one or two colors that can interact with Recurring Nightmare." Pithing Needle would like a word.

Complaining about Smothering Tithe when green gets a huge boost out of every set.

Rhystic Study is way more busted than Smothering Tithe...lets get that out there

Run. More. Interaction. People just go value value value and then whine when a better player (who put removal in their deck) kills their thing.

Professor, this discussion is very necessary and here are my thoughts about it. Thank you for the opportunity =) - Chulane in competitive is on a low tier power level, but saying it's poorly designed is questionable. It just aims at advantages and hits it, not being a threat by itself like Korvold (that's why only the later apeared in competition in Standard). - "What is overpowered" / "What should be banned" as different things is an attitude towards the banlist that gives a free way to unbalance, and unbalance hurts competition. That's a Game Design standpoint. - Shaming a 8-mana stax piece like Vorinclex over so many others is contradictory to the mana-efficient definition of overpowered. It's a creature (fragile to 1-mana interaction like Path to Exile), and a threat appropriate to it's cost. If anyone gets to cast a 8-mana spell it should be rewarded on this level and the rest of the table gets the responsibility to interact with it. - The same thing goes for Iona. In comparison it's effect gives away ramp to a stax shutdown of one color, but even more inefficient because of it's even higher mana cost and triple specific mana, and being in the color with the least access to ramp, rituals and card advantage. And if you are a monocolored player playing in this power level, yes, you should pack you deck for artifact-based removal. - Are you serious putting Smothering Tithe, one of the only few tools White have, ahead of Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora, Hullbreacher (see a color here?), Carpet of Flowers and even Dockside Extortionist? Opposition Agent is not on the "advantage" side, but here you have just some more mana efficient things with a more powerful effect than it in colors more powerful. - Sol Ring more powerful than Moxes? Do you know how many combos out there only exist because of casting 0-mana cost stuff? - "The RC didn't considered Timetwister too strong at that time", that's why any banlist should be designed by Game Designers. Not judges (being one myself), not pro players. - Recurring Nightmare yes, should be unbanned because it can be very telegraphed to anyone to see the combo you're about to do because it requires a lot of pieces and tutors (some special, to put the creature in the graveyard) to function. Both departments of "cheating creatures into play" and "recurring reanimator effects" have more efficient and powerful ways to do it. - Yes, Leovold and Prophet of Kruphix are overpowered, hands down. Seedborn Muse is strong in competitive level, but the argument "one piece" is what defines it at "not too". - Worldfire agreed, is way not overpowered and a combo per se to win the game. In a world where you can win with Thassa's Oracle and Demonic Consultation arguing that Coalition Victory and Biorhythm "are overpowered because they win on the spot" is ignoring both its pieces required and mana cost. - "No partners on the level of Tymna and Thrasios", well, this one is uncertain but I feel there are candidates to that very level. - Jeweled Lotus: you casuals were terrified of a turn 1 Braids? (note: we from competitive were not) Now not just turn 1 Urza is trivial, but wait and see the amount of turn 1-3 wins the format will face in an overdrive of fast combo strategies. And no, it's not a mana rock but a ritual in a artifact shape. - Hullbreacher fine?!? That's exactly why I argue to WotC to take control over the banlist of the format. At least the Game Design team correct their mistakes after they make them, not leaving competitive abandoned to a state as if it didn't exist. Again, I'm happy the community is making more and more dialogue about all this. It's just sad that the feeling is that what is heard is somewhat selective (with written statements that it intentionaly devalues the cEDH experience, nonetheless the banlist is for everyone).

Smothering Tithe is too strong!!! But Hullbreacher is fine, because it's a Merfolk, right Prof? *wheezes*

People don’t like playing interaction hurt me. :(

"Oh sorry guys I didn't know Iona was going to shut your decks down I just thought it looked cool"

Demonic consultation in casual is too Powerful. Thassa’s Oracle in CEDH is too strong and underworld breach is just fucking busted lol

I must contest, I believe you MUST run at least 10% of your nonland cards should be removal in someway. Whether it's a creature with an ETB effect or just straight removal spell like STP or Path.

I asked my playgroup would they rather me reanimate jin gitaxis or vorenclex and they voted for jin. I personally think jin is a stronger Praetor in locking out a game. You have a turn to remove him or you are top decking for outs. Vorenclex will slow you down until he is removed but does let you use your hand to find solutions.

My only issue with jeweled lotus is what its doing to the price of draft boxes and collector boxes. The set went from "normal pricing" to "whoa thats too much". So much so, my LGS went and priced the boxes above current market prices. Sigh

No, I put Vorinclex and Iona into my decks for just the reasons that she said most people don't think of. I didn't care they they were big creatures, they had a lot of control power. But I would love to play with Worldfire for the kick and giggles. Full art talismans would be awesome.

Hi prof! I think that is a BIG mistake to say that solring is more powerful than a mox. The 0 cost is the difference. If moxes were legal, you can have 2+ colored mana for free. That's the real deal with moxes.

I could not disagree with the other guest more... if you build your deck around cards like wildfire 9 mana is nothing. you can also cheat the cost. for them to say that muse should not be banned is funny.

Smothering tithe over Rhystic study? interesting

Have been wondering how the rules committee keeps dropping the ball lately. After listening to an opinion of the Commander Advisory Group I now know why.

Silly professor, I'm back to point out that Hullbreacher is now many, many real world dollars!

I started playing MtG with Eldraine. Picked up Chulane to add cards to for my first commander deck to play with my friends since I really loved my mono-Green pioneer deck. Having no idea how to even begin competently build a deck, my Chulane deck became a borderline mini-Jhoira esque perpetual motion machine with no input from me. I lost as my friends were able to put my fledgling deck down with their years old, far more competently designed decks, but it kind of speaks to the power of the card a new player could take 10 cards out, slot in 50 more randomly, and create an engine that surges them ahead that drastically.

I feel the cards that are too powerful for the format are the ones that warp the game around them. As a cEDH player flash was essentially that. Basically everyone's real commander was flash and we were all playing flash tribal it seemed to simply get it out and win.

If Apex devestator is enough for Brian not to have fun, I guess his playgroups never play blue or black cards ?

I take issue with discussing overpowered cards when both of the participants seem to exclusively play battlecruiser commander from what they're saying.

Winter/static/torpor/smokestacks/thorn of amethyst/lodestone golem/trinisphere/sphere of resistance/tangle wire. Love those! I get taken out first, and it gives me more time do do other stuff while others play:-) hahahahahahaha

I've been putting more and more single target interaction and less board wipes, and been happy with the results - more interesting decision-making. less resets means games end quicker which allows you to get more reps in

I'd rather an 'I win' button over sitting around for six hours watching niv-mizzet storm off or green vomit all over the board again

The End was just on point

If you ask 100 Magic: The Gathering Players you will get at least 164 different answers/ opinions... 😅

Love all the long form podcast content. Makes the work day go by much easier

Vorinclex is the kind of card that I own but would never put into my commander deck because I dont want my opponents to feel miserable. The same way that I never used Iona when she wasent banned despite the fact that I own 3 copies. I dont power down my deck enough that I hate losing because of it, but I think about the fun I want everyone to have while playing. Having fun is way more important then winning.

Kettukarkki represents! Much love from finland to Charlotte and the prof

The reason Hullbreacher is broken is because his axe is upside down.

The argument that because duel lands and timetwister are expensive that price isn't a metric for banning is not very reflective of the history behind those numbers. half of the revised duels were under 100$ just a few years ago, and timetwister had been the cheapest power for a long time. Gaea's cradle is less than a quarter of the price of the cheapest moxen too. I feel like people talk about the price point of cards as if they are all the same but there is a real discrepancy there.

I feel like Golos deserves an honorable mention here, that guy get's out of hand very quickly if left unchecked.

I think Library of Alexandria and Sundering Titan are potentially worth of an un-ban, yes I know ST can be abused but when not in an abuse case its not that strong of a card by itself.

This video seemed to constantly be referring to some generic ideal of casual EDH, that in my experience does not exist. Even discounting cEDH completely, I find gameplay at power level 7 tables to be vastly different than at power level 5 tables. And trying to generalize about both of those in the same breathe seems ineffective at best and misguided at worst. For me the spirit of the format will always be the joy of being able to create and cultivate many different kinds of experiences at many different power levels. And I find it disconcerting that many of the "too powerful" cards discussed here are cards that my friends and I often enjoy playing with at what we would term no greater than tuned or optimized casual. I just couldn't connect with or relate to whatever meta is being referenced in this video as a baseline.

I really wish I could play Coalition Victory in my Sisay, Weatherlight Captain deck, for flavor reasons.

Smothering Tithe, Rhystic Study, Dockside Extorsinist, Hollbreacher, Opposition Agent, all the free if you control your commander cards.

I agree with most points brought up here. I am in a cedh playgroup and though it is the understanding that you need interaction and most games end on turn 3 or 4. It stinks that the usual culprit for most wins is a thassa's oracle with demonic consultation or a tainted pact. This is because it is incredibly hard to interact with and being that it is only 3 or 4 mana to pull off makes it worse.

I agree with their sentiments on CMR. I actually really like the set as a whole. Most of the Commanders seem like really interesting build arounds, and a lot of them are unique (Then there's the simic precon commander and the Boros commanders)

"Smothering Tithe" is definitely an overpowered card, but it gets an exception because it helps out White.

I don't know, the last time someone played Vorinclex at my group we ended up having a Vorinclex party cause 2 other players made copies of it.

I wish white had a Smothering Tithe that was a copy of Rhystic Study- 3 CMC, 1 mana trigger on draws

There is a single card that is the perfect example of too powerful for commander: Leovold. Too much adventage, unfun experience for opponents, extremely efficient, best color combo.

I appreciate the caveats for Smothering Tithe. I love it because white is my favorite color to play, but I also only play janky casual decks with more flavor than power. And almost no tutors. So I don't feel bad about including it.

Depends on the meta and what your play group consents to in terms of power level. Like everything commander discuss with your local playgroup and also if you want to go more powerful than those set limits, you can online with many different online discord groups. If you fail to communicate and you are upset about the power level without raising concerns or discussing it for you then it's on you.

Commander has changed so much over the last few years here, thanks to things being pushed towards efficiency and new power being printed so fast. I would love it if they would ban fast mana, counter spells that cost less than 3 (provided they can hit any spell), and a good chunk of generic value commanders. That said, the RC would never do that because it would upset too many people and they try their best to do nothing whenever possible.

I think the power level conversation could be 3 things. 1 intent; are we looking for a intense powerful game or a slow burn. 2. The general number grade people use now. 3 a average cmc number. I think knowing everyone is close to the same cmc communicates weather we want big splashy or efficient and op

35:50 I didn't know I needed textless borderless signets until now and now I need need it. That said, A Kaladesh+Ravnica crossover for each signet? Ooooooooh baby.

Professor; I typically watch your videos in a way that constrains leaving long meaningful comments, but today I find myself in front of a different screen. I want to offer a sincere thanks for what you do. Your MtG content is my favorite on all of the interwebs. My five-year-old daughter knows you (she thinks you’re boring, but that’s only cause you’re not Princess Poppy). Anyway. You do great videos, keep doing them. -Will

How do people feel about villainous wealth? I love it. Casting a big one can end essentially end the game, and is a very fun way to do so, because you get to try new win conditions. but I having it played against you feels devastating. Apex devastater reminds of villainess wealth, but not as strong. Prof said it's not to powerful but is villainous wealth?

Once again it shows how a ban list based on subjective criteria is bad.

If it beats me it’s too powerful.

I know exactly why I'm using Vorinclex. I have lost faith in the committee.

"That's more of a flavor fail" The justification was so amazing haha.

The way Charlotte defines how a card can be too powerful for Commander has me thinking: Why haven't the RC banned Thoracle? It's objectively more efficient than labman AND jace, not to mention cheaper, and is extremely hard to interact with. Even if your Thoracle gets countered, you didn't lose much because it only costs UU. and on top of that, most decks can't interact with it after it's off the stack. EDIT: A couple of responses seem to not get that "Dies to removal" isn't an argument. This card just doesn't get blown out by the most popular removal of the format(kill spells) and requires that you dedicate space in your deck to specifically either A) counter the ETB trigger, or B) run enough free spells and interaction to prevent your opponent from winning turns 1/2. People also seem to forget that tutors are extremely efficient and manabases are some of the strongest ever in this format. It is very much possible to have the combo by turn 2-3.

I enjoy that there's at least 2 Ponka po's in this video.

Wizard's philosophy in designing cards for Commander seems to be comparable to what they do to Vintage and Legacy: make everything so broken that it's ultimately balanced. Unfortunately, that sets everyone up for a wallet arms race.

I agree that Worldfire isn't too strong for commander, but I also don't think that's why it's banned. I think Worldfire is banned because it essentially reads "A random player wins the game". It sets everyone to 1 and removes all permanents and hands. Nothing that happened in the entire game before matters anymore and it's only about who draws the last point of damage first. I understand why it's banned, especially in commander, because playing for like, an hour, just to then have nothing that happened the entire game before matter at all could feel extremely frustrating.

Reprint every 2 mana rock in every commander product, in stages if you must. Same for fetches. Same for tutors. have then constantly reprint every x years. ally signets one year, enemy next, etc. etc. etc.

I had to come dig this one up. It wasn't in the playlist for Untitled! I thought I was going crazy when I was on #21 and the actual number in the playlist was #20.

Your work for more representation is incredible !!!! Thank you Prof!

There's definitely a part of me that wishes I could play Recurring Nightmare in Commander, but I also recognize that it absolutely is too absurdly powerful to be in the format. I just have to accept that Cube is the answer.

Outside of cedh, 0 band lists is needed

Note on the You Win cards. they have made the point before that they don't like spells that win you the game on resolution but don't mind ones that require you to wait till a specific point. So no to :Coalition Victory/Biorhythm/Worldfire but yes to Revel in Riches/Mortal Combat/Epic Struggle because you wait an entire go around the table till your next upkeep. Darksteel Reactor is an odd duck as the upkeep trigger is conceptually the cause of the win but with things like proliferate, I have never seen it shake out that way.

I think the thing with Sol Ring and moxen is, you can only run 1 Sol Ring. You can run 5 moxen. Also WotC probably doesn't want to reprint Moxen but they can stomach Sol Ring.

Professor! We need a cubeamajigs and dragon shield cube shell comparison. I rely on your wisdom for which MTG items to purchase and I’m looking for a new reusable pack for my cube

Chulane on his own is not too overpowering. Put Tatyova with him and they become a powerhouse. Add in Horizon Chimera and you have a life gain and card draw machine. Turn it into a Merfolk Swarm type of deck and you will have a mean deck. Under the right circumstances, Jeweled Lotus can be busted. It should have been printed as a Legendary Artifact, but such an oversight is what breaks it. Play Prototype Portal imprinting the Jeweled Lotus onto it and you can pump out a Jeweled Lotus every turn. This is very useful when you have a commander who is constantly targeted for removal. Anyway you can duplicate the Jeweled Lotus will break it for the late game.

I played with Worldfire for awhile in my Jhoira of the Ghitu deck... it's definitely not fun for other players. There's so many ways to get it in your hand and return it to your hand, cheat it into play. The game becomes everybody scrambling to counter a single "I win" spell every turn. Then your deck becomes "Worldfirephobia" even long after removing the card you wanted to test out. :^)

I'm pretty Sure Winter Orb is Fun!!! ✌️😅

Prof please add this to the UmtgP playlist!

I was in the meta during the Elder Dragon Highland days. It was fun for a decade. But I've moved onto cEDH because I don't want to hold back any more. I am a Spike, not a Johnny. I'll play how I want with the group that wins turn 2-4 or stax's the game out willingly. You play how you want

I love the seperation between casual commander and cedh. Like chulane is not even close to the top of whats possible in magic but in a casual setting its very overwhelming and powerfull.

"People don't like to pack a lot of interaction." I'm sorry, what? If that's true I think that's more indicative of a lot of players who are relatively new to MTG are playing EDH. Not playing a lot of removal is sort of a hallmark of a new player. You often just want to play cool creatures or artifacts or whatever, but it's a part of growth to learn that you need to be able to deal with your opponents' cool stuff as well. I have very distinct memories from my early days in Magic where I learned how good "destroy target creature" can be. Then my friend played OG Avacyn and I thought that was OP as hell until I learned about exile and sacrifice effects. I loved playing battlecruiser creature decks until I got wrecked by every wrath or Grave Pact and learned I need to have things that protect those creatures. If a player is just stubborn and refuses to play any interaction because they think it's anti-fun, then they just need to accept the fact that they're probably going to lose a lot more often than they should and the only reason they won't be having as much fun is entirely of their own making.

About the moxes ban: I suppose sol ring is not banned and moxes are because independently about the number of colors of your deck you can only run one copy of it, with moxes it is different. If you have a 3/4/5 colors deck you suddenly have more than one copy of the same powerful card just because you are running more colors than other players. Multi color decks would be automatically more powerful than mono color decks

Door to Nothingness eliminates one player a turn later. Something like Coalition Victory eliminates any number of players immediately. I don't see how you can really compare those to each other.

While I think there is a number of bans that could "fix" EDH, that number would be excessively large and probably need constant updating due to the acceleration of power-creep (which is now more of a jog). My personal headcanon is that eventually, like modern, we will have "modern EDH" which will be legal from some set (say Dominaria) forward... if historic brawl ever becomes a thing, that might overtake popularity due to 1. Planeswalker commanders 2. historic being more price accessible for paper play than many EDH staples.

I gave a Like even though I dont agree with anything said in this episode.

They need to make "ramp" mana more than fast mana. Make a mox that enters the battlefield tapped. Then it's not fast mana, it's just ramp. Make a 2 mana artifact that taps for 2 but comes into play tapped (and maybe has some other restrictions of some kind). As long as it's ramp and not immediately leading into more plays on that player's turn I think it's fine. That's the type of ramp that I like playing against in my casual games.

Better then smoothering tithe, you mean smoothering burgeoning study.

My commander deck is 10% to 20% removal XD

I'm kinda sick of people always calling out Chulane and Korvold as these overly powerful cards that no matter how you build it they are so strong. Both of those decks I own I'd say are like a 6-7 power level. There are ways of building them to not combo out and just have fun. I think this mindset of having to build the most power version of the deck is really the issue.

In mentioning that a card may be too powerful if it locks a player out of the game while also supporting tempo games and seeming to dislike excessive acceleration...what are your thoughts about game turn-around in general. I enjoy playing competitive EDH typically because the games are much shorter giving an opportunity to play another round and potentially allowing another player to win/perform their game winning combo. It really sucks when a player is locked out from a game because they bit the dust early on and then the game proceeds to drag on without them.

Never understood the Vorinclex hate. Unless youre really lucky and get to entomb & reanimate him early its gonna be turn 6-8 before you can resolve him. If your opponents dont have removal to respond to him within one rotation at this point youre gonna likely have enough mana to win when you untap. He is just a splashy wincon.

Imagine recurring nightmare and uro combo in a yarok deck

Adding powerful cards to the format is ultimately a non-issue, in my opinion. As long as a pod's decks are relatively balanced to one another, games will be fun. Notes on particular cards: Vorinclex - unlikely to accelerate the player's mana the turn it hits because of its high cost, but is painful for the person removing it because it punishes their manabase. Solution is for the removal player to make it clear to the table that they're doing them a huge favour. Smothering Tithe - my issue with this is that it's too splashable. It's a very good effect that white needs, but only requiring one white mana to cast it means it can just be included in every deck with white. Making it 1WWW or even WWWW would ensure it only gets played in mono white or very white-heavy decks. Iona - this just comes down to discussing with your pod when choosing what decks to use. Basically, as long as this isn't in a pod with a mono-colour player, it's completely fine.

Something that always bugs me in commander is why sol ring is not banned. It is a card that is so powerful that the only reasons that it is ever not run in a deck are budget or intentionally making a weak deck. A card that every deck runs seems to me to be the exact definition of a card that should be banned.

Lol this just reminds me of eye of the storm and mind's desire combo.

Always enjoy the zinger at the end of these episodes.

I tweeted at you about this exact subject Happy to see the video