I guess the best way to describe this in artistic terms is that I'm playing with the saturation, and also the warmth/coolness of the final colour. On the German tanks, the red is providing warmth to the yellow. In the case of 1930s USN aircraft, I've seen people use a bluish purple. This will give some coolness to the yellow so that the yellow is more cohesive with the rest of the cool-colour finish on the aircraft. So when people are Pre-Shading with black and white before painting the final colour, they are making contrast that will affect the shade (darkness) of the final colour. I am effectively doing the same but with the saturation or hue, rather than the shade. Maybe "Pre-Saturating" should be what I call this. Now of course the key is the final colour on top has to be very slightly transparent for these effects to show through. Building up the colour in a series of thin coats gives you the control to let these previous effects show through subtly.

@@Panzermeister36 Thanks for such a detailed reply! I'll do some experiments and see what I can learn.

easiest way to explain it is coping the way the tank was painted in real life.... red is corrosion proof coat for bare steel that acts as a primer for the base colour .... everything else is weathering after the base colour. there is no technical model term fad name as its just coping the process that heavy machinery used forever its just a painting process

Thank you very much Markus!

correct - as i grew up with this "red rust" seal paint (every metallic object in the outside except copper aluminium and stainless teel) i rejected the grey one (usually used for zinc) for a while ... next to its "rust-cover-delaying" it has 3 main features - 1. by its thickness and pasty-ness - and fast drying 5-15 min 10-25° - it closes edges - bolt-screw-gaps & egalizes weld seams 2. it buffers the different temperature strains of the metal and the "paint" - 3. its a very strong "bonding agent" - which grips into/onto the metal and protects it if the paint is lost/damaged

But why does it look better? 2 coats always looks better.

I think that’s the difference between the stages of how serious people are about their modeling projects. I’m color blind af so I can’t see a LOT of colors so I never could really see the difference! 😂

In that case, you deserve much credit for your work young man. I myself suffer from a condition known as stereo blindness, which in basic terms diminishes my ability to triangulate what I see. This is somewhat of a ball ache for me, especially where detail painting is concerned. I have however developed a workaround to my problem. Keep up your great work. 👍

Das sum yt ppl shiet

No shit... Because the real ones are primed red, then color on top.

Cheers Clayton! Feel free to steal 😁

Thank you for sharing your input! I agree completely.

It's good for free shadowing on Warhammer 40k figures when using a few of the "quick and dirty" techniques such as Slap Chop.

Welcome aboard! Thank you so much for supporting me.

Cheers Dan. Yes, I have a few painting tutorials coming soon on the projects in this video.

I absolutely am. And it's decreased my productivity 😁 but I enjoy it so that's what matters most!

Glad it was helpful! Cheers

I have a couple of panzer grey subjects to do soon, so I will give the blue underpainting a shot on one of them!

It definitely adds some pop to the vehicle!

Glad you enjoyed it!

I did get some of this recently! Will test it soon.

Thank you very much! I have some tutorials coming in the new year on the vehicles I showed in the video.

@@Panzermeister36 Great!

Thanks again!

I am going to try actual metallic chipping effects on an upcoming project (softskin vehicle). It's hard to find a metallic paint that doesn't seem to have large pigments/flakes that seems out-of-scale, but there's got to be a good option out there.

Thanks Chris! I will be experimenting more in the future with other colours.

That is a good point. It is important to keep each coat as thin as possible.

Odd logic, more detail would be easier to lose under multiple coats of paint, would it not? Less detailed kits have less to lose and larger shapes that stand up better to thick paint. What you said made no sense at all, with all due respect.

Thanks for watching!

Thank you; have a great Christmas as well!

Thank you! As far as I know, the red oxide is correct for early-war vehicles as well.

I'm going to try other primers to see if I can get more interesting results. Blue, green, purple...

Absolutely, and it would surely get an easy 100,000 views!

Let me know how it goes!

@@Panzermeister36 will do.

I have not been able to get any MRP paints but hopefully some day they are available in Canada.

Yes George, that would be a good reason to try the red base under grey. But when it comes to yellow, you have the two benefits: accuracy and adding warmth. With the grey, you don't want the added warmth aspect, so in that case black could be preferable. You can still paint selected red on the rear faces of wheels etc. Everything is a trade-off I guess! Lots to experiment with 😁

I have not tried that exact colour but I shall give it a test to compare!

During the war German armour was always in the red primer. Later in the war (late '44 onwards) a grey zinc phosphate primer was used on armour plates, but it's not clear if it was left that way. It's more likely that this grey primer was used to coat the armour plates when they were individually finished, and then after everything was welded together, the whole vehicle was re-primed in red oxide.

The correct colour would be RAL8012 Rotbraun (red brown). Though if you want a lighter tone I would suggest RAL3016 Korallenrot (coral red).

Yes absolutely, lacquers are more durable paints than acrylics in my experience.

I got some of that recently that I will try soon!

Unfortunately this is misinformation spread mainly by model paint companies. German armour was only deployed in the base yellow with camouflage applied by units between February 1943 and August 1944. Starting in August 1944, all vehicles had the three colour camouflages painted in the factory in standardized schemes. This was done so that the vehicles would be camouflaged during transportation to the units; the Allies had air superiority over German by this point. There is also no evidence that the red primer was ever used as part of the camouflage. Even the last 6 King Tigers and the last batch of Panthers which rolled out of the factory in April 1945 directly into combat were photographed still painted in the elaborate factory-applied camouflage patterns. Basically, the German military acceptance department would have not accepted vehicles not fully completed and the manufacturers would not have been paid otherwise. War is business, so the factories assembling tanks were under pressure to still complete everything to the requirements in order to be paid by the government, even in the last weeks of the war.

That should work out!

I would personally say yes, though I have seen heated discussions online going both ways! It's confirmed that the rear faces of the wheels were often red, so the underside of the hull being red would also make sense. I have not seen a photo that proves this though.

@@Panzermeister36 It does make sense, especially towards the end of the war when supplies were lacking. Plus, to paint the underside you would have to flip the hull, crawl under it or lift it up. Thanks!

I wish I had been able to show the grey-primed vehicle in the video for direct comparison, but I've moved 3 times since I finished it so I don't have it on hand anymore unfortunately...

It's still sitting around but I'm not super happy with how the winter camouflage looks. May repaint it. Not sure...

Thank you for the information. I never really noticed any red rust and the places that you showed in photos or books. I have some old models (70-80's) that someday I would like to restore to better condition. Back then, I didn't know about primers. I may just redo/remove the paint scheme on them and repaint them. Mostly German WW2. Thinking that when I repaint and decal a couple of Americans and British vehicles that I might try to do some dioramas with them. Left modeling for hex and counter n Area control war games though I have a bunch of 6mm GHQ WW2 east front micro armour from last century. lots unpainted but I hope to get to them in 2024. Two years ago fell into the sphere of miniatures. Mostly in 25-30mm. Mostly Fantasy, medieval humans, very few figures with guns. Learning about primers finally. Got a Brumbar waiting to be built. Everything I've painted has been by brush. I want to get a paint sprayer so I can try and do right by the Brumbar. Got some 1:100 Soviet tanks to build. (9). Bought a bunch of Tiger's n Sherman's preassembled n painted from Noble Knight. Tigers are tired of just shooting Shermans...lol Subbed👍

More to come!

I'm not a big believer in that, since when we view or photograph the model, we do so up-close at a similar distance from how you would in real life. So, the concept of painting it lighter to account for scale i.e. distance doesn't make sense to me....at least for that reason. On the other hand, weathering with washes and matte varnishes can contribute to darkening the finish, so I often paint the model a little bit lighter to start. This way, weathering darkens it back to where I want in the end.

I think it's representative of a real-world phenomenon. The further something is away from you, the lighter, more desaturated it will look and the less contrast it will have. It's just an atmospheric effect, that's why mountains covered in green trees can look greyish blue off on the distant horizon just to give you an extreme example of this. The reason I chose to do this with models is because the smaller something is, the "further away" it appears to be if it were actually 1:1 scale. To Evan's point, a 1:35 tank viewed from 4 inches away would roughly look something like a 1:1 tank viewed from... 11 feet away I think? I am not great with scale conversion. But with that- there is not a lot of atmospheric distortion or effect on a real tank viewed from such a short distance. I do think it comes into play more with smaller scales like 1:48 or 1:72, definitely things like ships at 1:500 scale or something extreme like that. BUT- it can also come into play from a display cabinet or contest tabletop because those are viewed initially from 3 or more feet away before someone takes that 4-inch look. Even at 3 feet, a 1:35 scale tank starts to look like something 1:1 scale viewed around 100-ish feet away I believe. At 100 feet away, I would imagine an object would look lighter at that distance than the same object if it was right next to you. 2D painters add this kind of atmospheric depth to their art- and that's all any of this hobby is at the end of the day- art. Unless someone is building a 1:1 functional reproduction or something like that, it can never be truly "realistic". As soon as one adds pre or post-shading, pin washes, color modulation, zenithal lighting effects, or anything like that to artificially enhance the perceived realism of the model, it's an artistic technique being applied to trick the viewer into a sense of suspended disbelief that this little plastic kit is actually representative of its 1:1 counterpart. In my opinion, if you found a perfect 1:1 color match and painted a small vehicle in that exactly perfect color, it would feel too dark to a viewer if they could hold it up next to the real thing, especially if that model was feet away from them. If you left it like that without any artistic effects, it would also look toy-like and none of the details or panels would pop out. I think that's where pre/post shading, color modulation, etc. have all come from, the need to take something small and make it look larger, giving it the same effects of light and shadow and depth that a larger vehicle would show in a real-world environment if it was taken in and viewed all at once the same way a model can be. Like any other technique, it can be overdone and it's all subjective to one's artistic taste, but it's all just different ways of trying to achieve the same thing. Again- to agree with Evan, most weathering/wash steps will only darken a base coat, so I don't think it ever hurts to add some light/dark variation to a finish. It's not realistic in the sense that of course, this is not something ever done to 1:1 vehicles at the factory, but I think it can make it "look" or "feel real" compared to the alternative of just leaving something a solid, "correct" color. Mind you there is nothing wrong with any specific technique though- as long as the modeler is enjoying their time and the process is fulfilling their hobby goals 🙂

Yes, it's a red lead oxide.

The Tigers were primed in red and then painted one of three ways: The first ~20 Tigers were painted in grey. This was a very limited batch and most of these fought around Leningrad. The majority of "early" Tigers were painted in RAL8000 base with RAL7027 camouflage covering 1/3rd of the vehicle. This was done at the factory until at least April 1943. Tiger 131 which survives today at the Bovington tank museum is a good example of this. After that, Tigers were painted in RAL7028 -- the standard German dark yellow colour. Once they arrived at the unit they could be painted with custom camouflage using the green and/or brown colours. Tanks weren't typically painted over multiple times. They didn't survive long enough in combat for that to be an issue.

It should be red. In the video I showed an example of a Pz III with a removed bin and it appears red oxide underneath.

@@Panzermeister36 well I'm trying to do a tiger 1 from Kursk that is a gray tank over painted in yellow. But I'm doing it on a rail car so if I have the outer wheels pulled off and the side skirts pulled off, what color are you thinking? On the backsides of the wheels and underneath the side skirts?

Backs of the wheels I would for sure do in primer, but the outer faces of the inner interleaved wheels you could leave in grey -- those outer faces would have been originally painted grey, but if they're not normally visible in the end, they would likely not have been painted yellow. For the side skirts, the area of the hull side usually hidden by the skirts should be yellow, as they painted the what could be visible if the skirts fell off. Though you could also do grey here, just not primer. The inside face of the dismounted skirts I would do in primer just like the inner face of the wheels facing the hull.

In that case I may try something different. Your primer on those vehicles may be red, but more likely some kind of light yellow or white. I would need to do more research.

Cheers Mark! Hope you are doing well. Michael told me he had a great time with you on his trip to Telford.

@@Panzermeister36 it was great to meet him and I think he really enjoyed it. Let's get you over here one day mate

For sure!

Personally I think the AK Real Color RC060 is great, though I will also use the Tamiya XF-88 or LP-55. I try to use a slightly different mix on each project so that everything on my shelf isn't exactly the same. Those three I listed are all a little varied, and for example, I'd probably use LP-55 for a straight dunkelgelb vehicle, but the AK RC for a tricolour camouflage (paired with the RC068 and 047) since the AK RC yellow is a bit more saturated.

@@Panzermeister36 Thank you for the detailed response! I myself also tend to use different paint brands for the same color, sometimes even a custom mix. I bought AK RC's when they first came out, and did very much like their dunkelgelb. So somewhat recently I bought a few more bottles and was disheartened to see they were a completely different color! The new bottles looked more like their RAL 8000 color. I even contacted AK about it and they informed me they did indeed change the formula to a new "more accurate" color. Shame I preferred the original. I also just got a bottle of SMS Dunkelgelb. Haven't tested it yet, it's a little pale and has a slight green tinge to it, which I kinda like. I might also get a bottle of a small boutique brand called model car world (MCW) i believe his mixes are based on the old testors model masters which I used to like. Sorry for the ramble, again thanks for the answer!

My bottle of AK RC Dunkelgelb is more than a year old so it's probably the older colour. I will take a look at the hobby store next time to see if it's different! A shame indeed. I have never tried SMS personally though I know many people love it.

@@Panzermeister36 I can't tell you when the change in the real colors took place, but my picture comparing the old to the at the time new dunkelgelb was taken in October 2022. When I messaged them it sounded like the change had taken place some time ago. All that matters is you like the color though, and your results are very impressive! I haven't tried the SMS yet, got some RLM colors and through in the dunkelgelb cause it looked interesting. I haven't heard much on the brand other than some colors are a little thick out of the bottle and need more thinning, but that's no biggie

This is not true, and is a myth created by model makers. Field applied paint schemes actually stopped on August 1944, since after that point all three colours were applied in the factory in standardized schemes sometimes with stencils. This was done due to allied air superiority; otherwise tanks were not camouflaged during transportation to the units. There's photos of the last Panthers and King Tigers that rolled out of the factories in April 1945 and they're still painted in the elaborate factory-applied camouflage patterns. There's no photos of any tanks deployed in red primer. The German tank manufacturers would not have been paid otherwise by the material acceptance agency... those manufacturers were businesses after all.

@@Panzermeister36 I may be mistaking it for the official orders being changed. I can't find the link to the article any more but there was a very late change in official colors stating they would be painted in overall olivegrun rather than dunkelgelb at the factory. But that was so late a change it didn't affect many vehicles, however if memory serves some tanks did get the overall olive.

Hello Paul. Dragon/cyberhobby make a couple of sdkfz 253 kits (artillery observation vehicle), and Dragon makes the 252 ammo carrier. They're a little old but still good kits. The Kfz 15 should be available from Tamiya, Italeri, maybe Bronco?

@@Panzermeister36 Oh thank you I have struggled to get all my kits together. I don't mind how old or even second hand unstarted.

I imagine it would.

That's to give a similar effect to the "underpainting" I was talking about, though by varying different colours you would also get a Pre-Shading effect! I had not considered that. Everyone has their own styles 😁

KZfaq automatically removes comments with links to avoid people selling things. Nothing I can do about that. I know of the vehicle you are talking about; Jan 1945 Production StuG III G Alkett Factory. I am building and painting one just like it. Red primer is exposed on the fenders beside the superstructure as that area is blanked by the side skirts (which are no longer on the vehicle). It's also not a yellow base as the order was to use the green or brown as the base colour starting in Dec 1944. Yellow is one of the final colours which gives a very interesting dark camouflage.

Yes it's really an interesting vehicle, it also has the original red crosses on it. You could do a video on that too?

Red crosses is another late-war thing. I've seen it on a few other vehicles including some original colour photographs. I'll cover it in a video some day for sure!

My basic airbrush is a Badger 105 Patriot. Recently a few very cheap airbrushes have come onto the market; they're less than half the price of other airbrushes. Ghalleri and NeoEco are these brands. I have the NeoEco and I will test it soon...

From what I understand, before the war, vehicles were finished to a higher standard and, for example, KV-1 were primed in a red oxide (not sure about other vehicles; might depend on the factory). During the war, 4BO green was sufficient to serve as a paint-and-primer in one, so no red oxide is below it on a T-34. I don't have a lot of information on this topic though.

You can email me at panzermeister36@gmail.com

I do it to be different, because you prime in black.