Comms chatter is underappreciated. It's what makes Star Fox and Kid Icarus Uprising so memorable to me. The labyrinth/illusion stage in KI:U is amazing.

No Kid Icarus Uprising here is kinda sad

I think one of the surprisingly tricky genres to design for is the Collect-a-thon Platformer. Too many people want to "capture the feel" of classic games, without actually checking whether their finished design is good on it's own.

I guess it doesn't limit movement enough to count but I always consider vertically scrolling bullet hells to be on rails shooters and that genre still is decently popular.

One genre I’d like to see talked about is 3D arena fighters, if not just to hear someone talk about ARMS again.

Never thought I'd see footage of Football Manager in a Design Doc video.

I would’ve loved to see you talking about Kid Icarus: Uprising! I understand it’s not *always* an on-rails shooter, but I think that the segments it has are thematic, breathtaking, and fun!

Gonna second all the other comments about Kid Icarus Uprising - never played Sin and Punishment, but it sounds like a version of that with a bit less spectacle (though still enough to keep the player hyped and engaged, especially given that you're never on-rails for more than 5 minutes at a time), but also a much bigger focus on banter between the characters to carry even the slower portions of stages. It helps that the dual-screen setup lets the game include really intricate and expressive character portraits that add a lot of charm and personality to its dialogue, without actually obscuring the game screen at all.

I’ve been looking into what makes a good idle game for quite a while now and I’ve realized it’s quite tricky. You’re walking a fine line between not giving the player enough to do and having the player too engaged for it to really be an idle game. For instance I think Loop Hero is an excellent blend between idle game mechanics and roguelike rpg mechanics, but at the end of the day it’s not really an idle game exactly because you can’t leave your hero unattended for longer than a few minutes in most cases without risking them dying. The topic is especially interesting because pretty much all the best idle games are what most people would consider “time wasters” and yet some time wasters are a waste of time, so it comes down to what makes an idle game worth wasting time on.

I’d say what makes them good is that you’re always on the move and if there’s a target you really want to hit, it’s that much more challenging because it’s only on screen for a fleeting moment.

It would be really cool to see game's titles added when they're first shown like in GMTK! :)

God, I want a Sin & Punishment 3 so badly

I have some genres you Can talk in the future: -monster taming. -immersive sim. -rhythm games. -platformer fighters. -tower defense. -RTS. -heist games. -sideview rpg.

Your videos are getting better, it’s more interactive, it feels like you’re actually explaining things now instead of just pointing out stuffs and moving on, and that makes it more enjoyable and educative. Keep it up, buddy!

I could see how you might have skipped this intentionally, but the only notable genre I noticed missing here was 2D shoot 'em ups. Bullet hells especially take on-rails games to a direction that's about both technical skill and spectacle, just in very different ways than the examples you gave.

Can you do a deep dive on card-based combat in video games? Triple Triad, Slay the Spire, Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories, etc.?

An interesting topic for another video in this new series would be rhythm-based action games where you have to move and/or attack on the beat, with subjects of interest being rhythmic dungeon crawling in Crypt of the Necrodancer and rhythmic platforming in Mad Rat Dead.

Hard to do genres? Crafting Games. Nobody can beat Gust, and we've had dozens of games that think tedium is the soul and not the thing to avoid. Shopkeeping Games. You already basically did this though. It's hilarious how many games tried to copy Reccetear but do so by taking out the talking to customers part. Army skirmishers. Most focus on the economic building up of armies or narrowing power to individual leaders, but going for a straight up 30 vs 30 of different unit compositions and tactics is hard. Drawing games. Create your own monster, draw up magic circles, gesture tactical commands. A design AND hardware problem to solve.

Not so much "game," I suppose, but as something difficult to do right: underwater levels, specifically 3D underwater levels. Something about the combination of slowness of fluid motion and difficulty of full 3D navigation* (potentially combined with a camera that doesn't work well underwater) makes it seemingly consistently a difficult thing to get right. *As contrasted what I would call "2+1D": in water, you can take any position in 3D space and stay there; in "2+1D" like most 3D games, you only have a discrete set of elevations that you can sit at (namely, on the ground). Or equivalently, in water, you can always go in any direction in 3D space, but in 2+1D, you can move in any lateral direction or jump up (or fall down). [One could similarly distinguish "2D" vs. "1+1D" if you like, but I think the difference is less dramatic, and practically speaking that usually means "top down" vs. "side-scrolling."]

I'm currently building a game in this genre. It is so much more complicated to make a well designed game on rails and this video brought to my attention WHY my game doesn't work right. Time to make a rollercoaster thrill ride like Sayonara Wild Hearts instead of a bland Gummi Ship. It's really interesting to see how it's almost more like a cinematic experience that puts the player in control. The challenge I face is: How am I going to give the player more interesting/difficult choices that impact each situation in game? How can I build these scenes in a small scope without it feeling repetitive? And here I thought I started with a game idea with small scope...

Tbh I’d love to see you talk about isometric turn based strategy games, bc they’re such a rare genre now & there’s so many bad ones

It always amazes me how rail shooters and shmups are so related yet so different

Sayonara Wild Hearts is a masterpiece.

might not be the best genre to make a video on, but tile matching games would be interesting to see just from the variety of approaches from older games like Puzzle Bobble, Puyo Puyo, and Tetris, to modern mobile games like Candy Crush or Bejeweled

I'd love to see a vid on pet sims. From tamagochi to Chao Gardens to Nintendogs, there's good and bad qualities worth looking at. also I haven't seen a decent pet sim since nintendogs anyways, they didn't even catch well on mobile whats up with that.

My favorite on-rail game was Kid Icarus Uprising, it even had it's levels split in 2 segments, a flying part on rails, and a grounded part where you can move freely around. Both were very well executed and a lot of fun to play

As I was watching, I got reminded of my absolute favorite on rails game, Pistol Whip. It's VR only, but is a great way to get moving, has a lot of rhythm to vary the high scoring system, and with all the weapons and modifiers, really allows for quite a bit of variety. A really great mix of shooting and music

12:27 When my garbage brain subconsciously combines "Leon" and "Pigma" to "Ligma"...

I like detective games 😚 They don't always have to be about detectives, Ace Attorney and Outer Wilds come to mind, but I do so love putting together small pieces of information into a whole picture. Later Alligator subverts the expectations in which your investigation really turns out to be playing minigames with a large cast of characters, but at its core you are still putting together the 'puzzle pieces' of where does each character fit on the large family tree through paying attention to dialogue, where you met the character, etc. A bad detective game is a real miss while a good detective game is a real hit.

So glad Sin & Punishment was brought up and so quickly too. Those games were so underappreciated and it's about time people get to know them more now.

What I love about Kingdom Hearts 2's Gummi Ship missions is that they really let you get as little or as much out of it as you want. You're required to complete each one at least once, but unlike KH1, you can skip over them after that immediatly. Also, the game automatically gives you new pre-built ships for each new Gummi Mission, meaning you don't _have_ to mess with the customization options to have a ship that stays competetive. But! If you enjoy the Gummi Ship missions, it turns out they're very fast paced high-score 'em ups, with a lot of rewards and a secret Gummi Ship final boss!

One genre that exists, but not to the extent that I would like it too in recent years is the 2D Zelda-like genre. Outside of the Ittle Dew games and Nintendo's own offerings, they're just aren't a lot of really well designed 2D adventure game puzzlers.

I'll say that if N64 Pokemon Snap is a slow choo choo train tour, Kid Icarus: Uprising is the fastest rollercoaster in the world

The 3d collectathon is one of my most beloved genres, even though the total number of games in it that actually work... is depressingly low. Banjo-kazooie, spyro 1 to 3, dk64.. and just like that the golden era was over. DK64 got a lot of backlash, but i think that is mostly from people who don't pick up on the well crafted main paths through each stage, and cleverly placed warps that minimise backtracking. Shoutout to Mario for doing this three times, ty for holding out in the ps2 era, and hat in time for the loving tribute. The main mistakes of this genre are in the way collecting works, as you can see in Yooka-Laylee. It completely misunderstood the purpose of the minor collectable, as the breadcrumbs leading you around the stage to each objective, and instead made the minor collectables themselves a quest to find.

One of the more niche genres is character action. The devil may cry series, bayonetta(pretty much any platinum game), ninja gaiden, god of war, nier automata, and kingdom hearts. I would love to see a video on it

I would like to see a discussion reguarding classic citybuilders like Pharoah and Zeus. They have all but vanished in recent years, and you can talk about how hard it is to make them fun and yet deep/compelling to play.

I'm only 20 seconds in and you're already getting a thumbs up for starting with Panzer Dragoon music. Man, those games were really the reason to own a Sega Saturn.

Panzer Dragoon - it's been YEARS, and I still recognize a picture of it.

Are "runner-games" like Temple-Run, Subway surfer,... a subgenre of GoR? (idk if runner-games is the genre name)

My favorite is S&P star successor and seeing you talk about such a criminally underrated game is exciting

well one of my favorite genres that's bizarrely niche is heist games. why are there not more of them?

Sin & Punishment 1 and 2 are both excellent games with amazing boss design. It’s fun when you have to multi task when shooting/firing charge shots/using melee attack and moving or dodging attacks with your character. Sin & Punishment 1 feels like being in a dream, with how weird and specific the encounters are.

I probably replay Starfox 64 every two or three years. Have since it came out. That game rocked my childhood.

Technically not a game genre but What makes a good morality based game? Those games that have you make decisions and the ending of the game is different because of your choices. Think of Games like Undertale, Life is strange 2, BioShock, and on a more poorly executed note, games like Shadow the Hedgehog and Epic Mickey (as much as I love the ladder I can’t deny it has flaws)

What about card fighting games as a specialized genre?

13:23 "The pokemon snap game(S)" Feels good to be in this timeline

Yesterday I rode a kayak (rail) in "National Geographic Explore VR", photographed penguins, and thought that it was a very original idea. But here's Design Doc introducing me to "Pokemon Snap" from 1999. XD

A genre that might be interesting to see talked about in this way is Management Sims (that is, as in the likes of Sim City/Theme Hospital/Planet Coaster, not Football Manager... And I can't think of any other - The ones that had a spatial element rather than being playable spreadsheets). Was that a situation where studios with budgets stopped caring about the audience as with horror games which IIRC didn't see a decline in sales just... A decline in studios interested in making them until the indie revolution happened... or as per rail shooters where the things they were offering became easier to get from other places leading to the audience declining (Either way, we are fully in an indie boom for the genre now, so that's nice)

I appreciate the Ring Fit love🧡🔥

One genre that is very similar is Bullet hell. Well, it's more of a subset of rail shooters, but since you didn't mention it here, maybe it's worth its own video?

16:17 The elevator pitch for Ex Zodiac was clearly "What if we make Star Fox SNES except with a good framerate?" I dig it.

Sayonara wild hearts is one of the best experience i had in the latest years

No Kid Icarus Uprising?

The Nier series has always loved working with different game genres appearing through them and despite it's on rails shooting in the suits Automata did it well as a breather from the rest of the action even if it was very basic.

This needs so much content to model or draw, because you are constantly moving. Other genres can have you be in the same few rooms for several minutes, solving a puzzle or something like that.

Honestly, I would love to see an on-rails high-speed plaformer similar to the Sonic Storybook Series that isn’t bogged down by bad controls or design that can destroy the pacing within a heartbeat. Some of my favorite parts from Secret Rings were the levels where you could just go really fast and watch Sonic make split-second 90° turns and the slide mechanic where if upgraded correctly, can make you invicible to enemies and oncoming obsticles and can keep up the pace if done at the right moment.

Honestly to this day the game that I still remember for it spectacle was Child of Eden. The fact that you could shoot by moving your arms around was mind blowing.

3D platformers seem so SIMPLE in theory. Why do you rarely see any good 3D platformers outside of mario and nintendo in general?

Star Fox 64 is a game I've done a weekly playthrough of since I was a kid and there are so many reasons why. Aside from just being a fun shoot 'em up, my favorite part is how amazing every voice line is. Every line is so fun and delivered so well that for me, no other game has compared to the passion and emotion you hear in Star Fox 64

I recently watched GmanLives' Time Crisis retrospective video, and although I only played Time Crisis 2 as a teen, it made me appreciate a lot of what the series had, and had me wishing I could go back to play the full thing at some point

have there been any videos on visual novels or farming sims? or even, dare i say it, gacha games? i feel like those might be fun

How about talking about sideview tactical games? Games like Mutiny (nitrome), Worms, and SteamWorld Heist, I don't remember playing sideview tactical RPGs outside of those 3, and personally this is the only way I can enjoy a tactical RPG, it feels more dynamic than TRPGs on a grid, and more skill based than "keep the correct option and good luck, you only have 90% accuracy". It could be nice to see someone talking about these.

Kid Icarus Uprising is one of my favorites because the rails segments also provide a lot of story elements and interactions between the characters. The fact that the on the rails segments are half of a level solves the destination problem. Each stage has you using the rails to get to where the land battle phase occurs, The big issue kid icarus uprisng had was controls. I never noticed how bad the controls were as a kid (heck I didn't even know you could aim the reticle separately for a long time) but returning to it recently shows the issues of the control system

I still have a tradition of dusting off my old CRT and N64 and beating Star Fox 64 every single year since the 2000s. It never gets old, never gets boring. Safe to say it's my favorite game ever.

"The original Panzer Dragoon hasn't aged that well." Me, a diehard Sega fanboy: Are you sure about that?

I surely hope Thumper is in here, even just a clip. EDIT: ...How about rhythm games, like Thumper?

I´ve remember an arcade called Ocean Hunter. It was very impressive for the time, where you shoot sharks, kraken and other sea monsters.

So happy to see Sin & Punishment 2 get some love, especially for what I swear is one of the best water levels ever crafted. The game has some of the most wildly creative bosses I've ever seen, from the shapeshifting sea monster dude to a skeleton that tries to dunk you to death with a basketball made of flying medusa heads to a giant melting zombie cyborg that attacks you with blocks Tetris-style. And the music kicks ass, and the art style is awesome, and the motion controls work beautifully, and _GOD_ this game was awesome. I just wish it could get a sequel to better explore its characters and expand on its gameplay. While I think the Sin & Punishment universe has potential, the game's writing is messy at best. I had to read the instruction manual and check out both the American and European websites to fully get what was going on. Plus, I'll admit it could get kinda repetitive and I was disappointed with how it teased us with potential gameplay shifts that didn't go anywhere. I'm glad we got stuff like the highway level and the train segment, but I always wished I could choose which tunnel to take in the water level and get to play as the Gryphon Keeper for a bit instead of just having it drop us off at the start of the lava level. Even just some powerups or different weapons would be nice. ...sorry, I don't see this game appreciated much and I might've gone overboard.

Hyper-specific genre, you ask? What Makes A Good Second-Person Shooter? (Or just Second-Person games if that's TOO too specific.)

dude, i love your vids and I'm 7 minutes in so it might be premature BUT How can you have a conversation on on rail games and not cite shoot em ups in the first 3 minuted they are the most important and most influential genre on that regard

Bit Trip Fate was a 2D rail shooter. You had temporary power-ups and the levels were somewhat rhythm-based. The track was all curvy and you had to move back and forth on it to collect the item drops by defeated enemies and destroyed obstacles and avoid enemy fire.

I imagine they became less popular as arcades fell from vogue. An on-rails quarter muncher was always a mainstay of them in the 2000’s, but that model is only around as a novelty now.

Love the video concept. I'd be interested in one about platform fighters in the vein of Super Smash Bros. There have been many attempts with varying degrees of success, both indie and big-budget, but I'm curious as to what special sauce made Smash the most beloved.

In terms of hyper specific genres, how about farming sims? Stardew Valley really reignited the genre, to the point that most targeted headlines I get are about "The New Stardew Valley, But With ____"

I'm here two years after this video has come out because of a passion project brewing in my mind. One of the rarest light-gun/rail shooters ever is Ocean Hunter. Made by Sega, there weren't many produced, butt I was lucky enough to have found an arcade with it and I fell in love with it. Rail shooters in general are my secret favorite genre of games, and I hope to one day recreate Ocean Hunter along with some custom ideas eventually

The original rez was my favorite! Music reacting to your actions is pure genius!

Just for the Kingdom Hearts bit. While that's true that the rails shooter is gross. It's the fact that a mini-game breaks up the constant RPG action. Kinda like A Way Out.

You know where this genre would work really well? In VR!

Of the later light gun games, I loved Spacegun and Gunblade NY. Late in the sprite era, Road Blasters and Night Striker did a great job of taking the "mostly on the ground" racing + shooting, which culminated with the GI Joe game, where you'd get 3 players doing run and gun on a rail. For the flight stuff, I really love the Panzer Dragoon series, but I would love for them to bring back Panzer Dragoon Saga, since the RPG elements were really nice.

I'd say Kid Icarus Uprising does a phenomenal job at creating spectacle and challenge like Sin and Punishment. Not only is it epic in scale, but the music is perfectly timed to fit what's on-screen and the character's conversations. It's almost like a feature film at times.

Do one on creature creator games. It doesn’t get more niche than that!

I'd love a look into 1st person dungeon crawlers like etrian odyssey and the original shin megami tensei. Super underrated genre that I have a weird fondness for

There were some neat ones on the Wii that get overlooked a lot. Dragon Quest Swords turns dungeon crawling into a light gun-esque affair, with you needing to attack different sections of the screen with different types of sword strokes to defeat enemies. Samurai Warriors Katana gave you a variety of different melee and ranged weapons with different attack controls and attributes and tasks with a surprisingly wide variety of missions and enemy types to take on.

Star Fox 64 is so great that every Star Fox afterwards has attempted but failed to recapture how good it is.

Just... try not to do what sonic & the secret rings tried to be, too complicated for its limited control scheme

5:12 I feel like this isn't being fair to _Kingdom Hearts._ The gummy ship segments are essentially a minigame designed to offer a break from the core loops of exploration and reactive melee combat. Because of this, it makes sense that it wouldn't be as robust or intense. This is why the emphasis is on the customization, collecting blueprints and new parts, and improving your ship design - these elements both link the minigame to the core loop and also provide an additional incentives to engage with them. The sections aren't particularly difficult because they're being treated as an interlude. Having said all of that, the sequel definitely did a lot to improve on them (Just like it did for everything not involving Atlantis).

I find NiGHTS Into Dreams' rail system quite cool. It keeps the rail system but allows the player to control the speed of the train on the rail. This opens up a lot of new possibilities for gameplay style!

My current favourite on-rails game is probably Pistolwhip... It's mechanically extremely simple, but it executes it's marriage of on-rails shooter and VR music game incredibly well!! VR on-rails shooters like this one really feel like the successor to light gun games in how fun they are to play even with the simplest of premises

No mention of Rambo The Video Game? What was even the point!!? Great work as always ;) Seriously, this video kinda makes me feel that games on rails should be a more common trend

DesignDoc: So head down to the comments, where we got two topics to discuss: your favorite on-rails games, (and why you love them) and any other GENRES that are also tricky to make. Me *watching Sonic footage, while the editor is winking so hard his eyelid is about to shut completely*: I see what you did there

I've added Sayonara Wild Hearts to my wishlist after watching this video as it reminds me a bit of Thumper, which was a blast to play. It's a bit of an odd pull, but some of my favorite on rails bits were the motorcycle levels from the first Bayonetta. Your comment about set pieces was on point to be sure, those were full of them!

I can't believe kid Icarus uprising didn't have its own section. The talking between pit and palutena and other gods throughout the less exciting sections made it so fun to play through.

(Reads Description) How did you not talk about Kid Icarus Uprising?

I certainly have Some Thoughts on what makes a great rhythm game...

when you showed sonic I had to, had to, mention the boost games. I love that formula so much and am so damn happy I finally get a chance to play colors when it comes to switch. Please do an episode on the sonic boost formula, with all it's little details, including it's jumps from 3D to 2D, set pieces etc. That would be amazing!

I was reluctant to watch this, but I’m very glad I did. It gave me a new look on the genre of rail games, and I’m a huge fan of this. Can’t wait to design one into my game.

You really gonna not talk about my favorite on-rails game Typing of the Dead?

How can you talk about on-rails games, but not talk about Kid Icarus: Uprising? Its aerial sections are basically the king of well-timed spectacle, and they can be quite difficult on higher intensities too due to you having less time to react.

Great video! Space Harrier (32x version) always holds a special place in my heart. I love the music and world design. House of the Dead (Xbox) was also a teenage staple in my house. I always thought that light guns added a little bit extra to on-rails shooters, and wanted to use on something like panzer dragoon. Obviously, Starfox 64 is just the best, and I keep my N64 close just so I can do a run at least once a year. I'm currently working on a mobile FPS using gyroscope aiming. I've been designing my levels to be a bit more linear, to focus on what the gyroscope controls do best, so I've been researching a lot of on-rails shooters for inspiration. This video was a great help :)

I immediately thought of sayonara wild hearts upon seeing the thumbnail. Very glad to see the mention, I really love that game.