I feel like with Ateez even though there def is a formula, there's enough variation with the members parts, voices, concepts, genres and choreographies like you said and they release way more music to the point that even though the formula is noticeable it isn't irritating or annoying. With BP the sole reason 1. the formula is so noticeable 2. it grates on my nerves sometimes is because they don't have a large discography (or much variation since the pink concept has mostly been abandoned). I think it's down to the different goals the companies' have for each group. Ateez is meant to make money (obvi) but also they seem to put a good amount of focus on actually solidifying the Ateez sound and furthering the group's musical identity. YG with BP is the opposite. They found the formula that works for them (even though let's be real BP, similar to BTS, are too big to fail at this point) and have stuck to it ever since, not bothering to switch it up. Shut down with it's classical sample was sort of a change but even the small sample they used gets repetitive--they could've sampled a new part of the song in the bridge or stretched the sample a few bars in the last chorus or something. Loved your video, like always ~ keep up the good work

Since you mentioned possibly making this a series: “Why experimental Kpop music is a problem (But also why it works).” Stray Kids and NCT are talked about a lot when people bring up experimental and “noisy” music in Kpop. I remember when SKZ debuted a lot of people thought they’d flop because their sound was vastly different from many other BG’s at the time, but now they’re considered the biggest 4th gen BG, so something both of those groups have done obviously worked. Whereas with NMIXX, they had a very difficult time really finding a stable ground in their experimental sound and slowly seem to be moving into a more easy to listen to sound (based off Love Me Like This & Rollercoaster). Personally even as someone who wasn’t in love with their debut (I love Dice) I felt extremely disappointed that they no longer seemed to want to push the experimental sound anymore, it added a certain level of interest to them for me, whether I enjoyed the release or not. Great video btw ❤

I struggle with deciding how to feel about the use of formula in kpop because there are groups that make it work and groups that don't. In their early days, BTS had a clear formula, mainly with their b-sides. RM would open the song with a rap verse that would last up until the first chorus/prechorus, where usually Jungkook would then take the lead. All three Agust D albums have a formula when it comes to their structure: an intro song that serves as a true introduction to the album, a hard hitting title track, a few more intense rap songs, some more mellow songs with pop elements, an instrumental-based interlude, and then a ballad. I'm admittedly biased into thinking that that formula and structure worked well for BTS and Agust D, because while there is a use of formula, it isn't so glaringly obvious that casual listeners would pick up on it. BTS have an incredibly diverse discography, so some formula usage back in their debut days is forgivable because they've proven that they're able to break away from that formula. With a group like Blackpink, whose discography is incredibly limited, the use of formula is incredibly clear, especially because that formula is primarily seen in their title tracks. And since Blackpink have comebacks so infrequently, it's even more frustrating when the newest title track is a carbon copy of their last one. SM has also become pretty formulaic, less so in terms of song structure, but more in terms of what sound and style their groups have. SHINee's most recent title track sounds like something NCT would release; NCT's b-sides are almost indistinguishable from EXO's b-sides; Aespa's Kwangya concept has bled into every other group's comeback. That is when formula is frustrating to me, because it's an insult to the fans' intelligence. Companies need to stop rehashing the same songs and the same concepts over and over again and start giving fans something new and unique every time. Formula has a time and place, but when it's used repeatedly for years, it becomes frustrating and the groups just seem stagnant.

pdogg used have a formula during bts early days before hyyh got released, I think most groups had a formula during their rookie era before diversifyng(like look at seventeen and their work from adore u to aju nice)

I like how you explained that a formula isn't necessarily such a terrible thing. But if you're gonna use it, there are many tools to make it more interesting without needing to sacrifice the group's image. I'm glad you mentioned BP's Pink Side. I've noticed that they're not using it anymore but I've never seen anyone mention that. (Yes, I do think that the title tracks are what represent the group the most. They're kind of like self propaganda to bring in new fans and show people outside of the fandom what your group is capable of. THEN they'll be interested in listening to your album). Which I find that a little sad cause As if it's your last holds a dear place with me in memory lane. But they don't do title tracks like that to represent that original duality of the group anymore.

I was thinking about how bts's dynamite and butter sound as the same song melody / up beat wise. But being launched more time apart wouldnt be problem. Group sound identy, personality marketing vs variation was one of more enchanting thing that kpop had bring to me.

Eden and ateez do such a good job. Even though they have a formula, they place it strategically. Just take an example of real math formulas. Trigonometry (even though i suck at it) can be used in the WHOLE fcking math. While teddy just uses it to find angles of a right angled triangle, Eden uses to prove things, ofc finding angles and the most important, to make ANOTHER formula. Eden does variation while keeping the songs on the track of the concept. I always thought that this recent cb of bp was a last minute due assignment than using the 2 year break to release a full length album. Eden on the other hand (as well as hongjoong) are always utilising their time, researching the current trends while improving their methods (especially after inception happened, i was blown away). THEY ARE SO MUCH LIKE PIRATES (well they are actually). Always searching for treasure while keeping your ship afloat. Bye now I'm gonna marry the outlaw album.

Really glad you talked about the vocal variation ateez vocalist bring kpop fans really undermine their strength in vocals. edenry is definitely has smart diverse skills producers ateez discography is very diverse wrt sound, vocals

I have always thought that blackpink could do more. I mean much much more. They are just releasing party music, it's not bad, but it's boring. There's no breath in their discography (except for whistle, pink venom, pwf). They have a very predictable structure/ formula, which doesn't suprise me, but most often gives deja vu. That's why i can't listen to their whole discography in one sitting (ironically i should cuz the quantity....) I liked their solo songs. Especially rose and Lisa's. Rose's solo were very HER. It was her style and her real voice and range. Lisa's lalisa had so much variation BUT just in one song. The rest of her songs were the typical bp songs.

I'd be curious to hear your take on the intermittent use of English in some kpop and how/why it does/doesn't work!

17:23 ive never noticed this about Wave but I DID notice all 8 members in the bridge of Inception which is one of my all time favourite bridges in kPop!!!

32:20 unfortunately that isn’t actually a traditional Korean instrument or geomungo sample; it’s a sample called Fabian Muzur - Wonky Trap by Fabian Mazur presents ELIXIR. The KZfaq channel kia7nnn has several videos including one called “samples used in Blackpink songs” where they put the sample and the clip side by side. They just pretended it was a geomungo/edited it to sound like it-so it does have the spirit of a geomungo, I guess? Idk

Everybody: Listening to the video, occasionally nodding along Me: Watching Hongjoong slay bouncy

Recently, I was overcome by some weird obsession that led me to listen to every single BTS title track until IDOL and I noticed this. Rap verse (usually Yoongi/RM ) Prechorus (usually Jin/V) Verse (Jungkook/Jimin) again repeat with rap verse split between the remaining 2 rappers, then jin/v for prechorus and jimin/jungkook for chorus. This made me wonder if sometimes Kpop producers take the vocal abilities into account when they make certain members sing certain lines/follow such formulas. Like how in OT8 titles, usually Changbin/Han have an explosive verse in the beginning, followed by Seungmin/Bangchan always do the high falsetto parts in the prechorus, and Felix has the most attention grabbing part of a song, the rest having the remaining vocal /chanty parts in between.(the only exception to this is probably Maniac iirc). Like how you mentioned Rose never gets a verse , maybe because she needs to be in whatever part which is most vocally demanding? (idk much about BP so I could be sooooo wrong lmao) This might be even more true for groups that perform live often - BTS, BP, ATEEZ,etc because they have to keep in mind who can deliver their lines consistently live. anyways, sorry for all of my ramblings lol... and it was really fun video to watch!

I think Brave Brothers has an distictive sound/formular which you can easly recognize in the discographie of AOA and Brave Girls.

“if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” a line that is true and shouldn’t be overlooked 🤷🏾‍♂️

I want to see the follow up of token high notes singer. As a hobbist Soprano singer 😅 that sounds right about my function specially when singing with deeper voices. "Do the dog whistle" great, now be muffle in the background.

Loved the video! What you pointed out about Blackpink only having one or two people on a verse is actually something i really appreciate as you really get to hear each of their voices. Something that really stresses me out when listening to larger groups is when each member only gets one or two lines and it switches all the time. Yes it brings variety, but sometimes it just gets a bit messy, i think? Also in ATEEZ i often feel like some of the members have their designated role (like jongho for highnotes and belting, yeosang for deep parts) and then the others (esp.yunho, san& seonghwa) are used interchangeably for the vocal parts, meaning they often don't get to stand out as much. While this certainly works for them i just would sometimes like more variety in line distribution, i guess. Another thing i have noticed is part of the ATEEZ formula is that some songs just have this stomping hype beat at the end (usually eith them shouting) and its been done in too many of their songs in my opinion.

i think twice's formula is really apparent in their line distributions, nayeon opens the song, mina sings bridge, jihyo sings high notes, jeongyeon has last chorus, momo has a line in each verse, sana and mina sings verse, dahyun and chaeyoung rap tzuyu sings prechorus and boom twice song but i think twice does a pretty good job of using variation, everyone would agree that what i just said is the perfect formula for a twice song in terms of line distribution, but i cant think of a single twice song that perfectly follows this formula, and then there are songs like signal which throw the entire fucking formula out of the window, i still feel like twice's formula hasnt changed, even as they have grown as a group, but they make constant enough use of variation in concept, instrumental, and line distribution that it becomes less noticeable and IMO thats how it should be.

Haha, I am a big BP fan but when you wrote down their formula I lol'd so hard cause it is so true!

I totally agree with u on BP's formula, I've noticed it since day 1

what a good video! i learned some things, i nodded along to some points, i DIDN'T NOTICE all 8 guys appear in wave's first verse -- love it! bp (and some other groups whose names i daren't mention) are kind of frustrating to me in that... they have all the money and all the means to experiment, hire different producers and play with different concepts and sounds, and then they just... don't, and end up releasing music of mediocre quality with little thought behind it, all to the endless adoration of everyone and their grandma. i get it, you shouldn't judge someone for failing at what they didn't even set out to achieve, but when everyone's melting over how revolutionary, better than everyone else and unique their faves are, it's kind of. tiring. what i adore in ateez is that! their series! have their own distinct sounds! the fever series is a bit more muddy on this front, with the dual title track situation and turbulence in the epilogue album, but then treasure is cinematic, pirate-y and basically perfect background for emotional moments in your self-insert adventure story; the world is almost industrial in how metallic the songs sound -- not as in metal the genre, but metal the material, either hot or cold to the touch. it's really fascinating and makes me really look forward to more of their music. (just maybe let them rest a bit first, kq. PLEASE.)

to be honest i didn't even know that ateez used a formula and i've followed them since wave

'...it's not my fault they've been cranking out bangers since debut' XD you're so right though. In all seriousness though, I love your videos. You construct them incredibly well: they're well thought through and very clearly laid out, and it makes them both interesting and easy to follow. I'd love to also see captions for those of us who can't follow sound as well just because 1. accessibility, but also 2. your videos deserve to be available to more people. You put so much thought into what you're saying and put a lot of effort into being fair in your considerations and points, even when you're talking about your favourite groups, and I think you make them all exceptionally well. In terms of things that can be considered gripes in kpop, I think either 'that one person who does this for the group' and that's their main identity within it, even when doing that thing is something they love doing (you mentioned Jongho and his high notes and that's a very clear example of this - he loves singing but 'high note guy' is a little reductive for his talents and personality), or maybe the external focus on fair line distribution without necessarily considering the main role of a person within the group (not to extremes, like one member getting three words per song, but like main vocalists getting more lines in general than main dancers might, for example) or the desires of the members within the group might be my top two, but they don't take up a lot of head space for me and so I'm not sure whether I'd consider them 'gripes'? I just think about them sometimes.

For a group as big as BLACKPINK, it's sad that their contribution to music will be lackluster, not even their solo releases escaping the formulaic producing of Teddy. There are so many other groups their age who already made a fantastic contribution to music, but they're just ignored like that. I shouldn't expect that all stans will go for a group's discography with this criticism in mind.

I will forever remember the hype ice cream got before it was released, everyone was happy that it could be a pink concept. Leave it to yg to mess it up with corney explict lyrics and an awful rap by Lisa. Honestly if the song was a good one the beat was pretty nice for a pink song and if Jisoo got a fair amount of lines it could have been the proof that pink song are just as good as black ones. Then they released lovesick girls which is, after whistle, my fav song from the girl, which is a somewhat pink song, they saw that it didn't made the numbers of how you like that, even if everyone knew it was a better song, and decided nah not worth it. I will always dislike the yg people that discarted the pink concept after d4

ohhhh im excited to listen to this. ateez has a solid discography and despite any points that can be worked on, their overall sound is nearly perfect to me. looking forward to your analysis on it

always look forward to your videos

Someone send this to teddy pleaseeeee 😭🙏🏾 save them girls

The big three will always have a signature music formula they give to most of their artists.

omg i appreciated this break-down! i'm an atiny so i really loved learning more about their song structures!

I'm so happy to have one of my favorite youtubers back and I always love your choices on what you talk in your videos. Keep going!

i love you so much for using 7Heaven as the transition song !!! would love to see you do a video on purple kiss someday edit: i’ve noticed there are so many atinys that are also plorys and apparently it’s bc ateez and purki tend to promote at the same time ?? so atinys end up getting into purple kiss too .. i’m a moa and i can count on hand how many moaplorys i know it’s such a shame 😭😭😭

omg my two favourite groups LOL and the only 2 groups i've seen in concert!!! yesss ateez. & BP!!

Your videos never fails to amaze me 💕

This is amazing, you did a wonderful job

PLEASE make a video about Jongho getting stuck with the same role over and over again. Poor dude recently was all excited about what other parts the vocal members have that he would like to try, because Jongho doesn't audition for parts like the other vocalists, his are assigned. Please please KQ, trust in the other members to be able to hold their own and let this poor man get a part at the beginning of a song every once in a while. I also worry about his longevity as a singer with how much time he has to spend as the power ballad dude. P.S. I would LOVE to see a video as well discussing more of their discography and how the formula has evolved.

Such an amazing video, thank you for your hard work making this!!

can you do LEEZ and OLLOUNDER techniques, they are so genius

Holy heck girl I missed you!! I love your videos and this biggie was worth the wait!! Couple things… …you were not the only one in love with the brass from Kill this Love, that brass and Jennie and Lisa’s 2nd verse trade off were my favorite thing about that track! That and the instrumental string beginning in Pink Venom still have me in a choke hold when I think of those songs. I think most groups have some formula early on in their career to build a fan base before either getting the freedom or the confidence to switch it up. Thinking on it while musically things were different early BTS had a vocal/rap formula. RM always starts the song with a rap followed by Jungkook. And off the top of my head that followed that beginning format for their title tracks all the way up until Fire. However, I haven’t dove enough into groups to see if this could be apparent in nearly all groups! Not wrong about Ateez releasing bangers since debut though! Thank you for the video I cannot wait to see what you choose to give us next!!

OMG YOURE BACK YIPEE

GIRLLLL CONGRATS ON 6K!!

your analyses are so fun to listen to! like i didn't even know that formulas in kpop songs could be an interesting topic but indeed it was i love your attention to detail and professional commentary ^-^ i was thinking that maybe you would be interested to look into onlyoneof's discography too? they are heavily involved in song production and have interesting and experimental songs that are fascinating to listen too throughout their eras. if you feel like getting to know their art more i suggest you check out dora maar, sage, suit dance, picasso, byredo, chrome arts, skinz, tear of god. hope you like them too ~~

Bp better release the next mini album with a pink concept please we need it

Every time CatchingTeez released a video, I'm surprised how your opinion is ALWAYS the same as me. Don't get me wrong, I like BP, but after they use the same formula for 4 of their song, I just lost interest on them. I read some comments that said the KZfaqrs is a bit bias, yes but that doesn't mean she wrong. And she not creating the video just to shiting BP, because its true. I watched some KZfaqrs reaction on BP songs like "Form of Therapy KZfaq", he even said himself, some groups just keep using the same structure on their songs because one of their hit song came from that formula. For the comments like BP sells more & it works, well that because they are sometimes over hyped, then backup by thier loyal fan & their gig/modelling work. I mean Red Velvet, Dreamcatcher or Mamamoo have wide ranged of variety discography that should deserved the hyped. In the end, I just prefer their old songs like Whistle or Playing with fire. And thier b-side are not bad at all, I enjoy them more than titles track & was hoping Teddy should have used them as title songs. And for some comments that said maybe because some people prefer that kind of formula, yeah, that your opinion. In the end no one wrongs, it just preferences but I just want to said that 7 years of career should have create more diversity discography.

Hi, love the video! I really like to learn more about music and it was fate stumbling upon your channel. I love how you express your opinion, it's intriguing. Hope to see more from you. ESPECIALLY THE REVIEW OF OUTLAW ALBUM! PLEASE I WANT YOU TO TALK ABOUT DUNE (since there's no one with me to talk about it. Yes I'm very lonely) And which member are you thinking of talking about next? (The video of yeosang) Ok take care, be happy and healthy. Best wishes from me. Love ya! 💜

I'm sorry but shut down might sound better just because it has a banger sample, imagine having such a good sample and it still sounds mid. smh

I do love blackpink. They're one of my favorite groups, but I laughed so hard when you were talking about how blackpink songs always start because its so true😂😂❤❤ I still love them tho. No hate lol

if you haven't please go check out g-dragon's without you (ft. rosé) and black (ft. jennie), I have not listened to many songs of blackpink (besides the most popular ones) but as far as I can tell in those songs we get to see another side of their voices that are not too common in bp's songs. they're way softer than what they're used to and in without you rosé sings pretty low, I love what she does there.

Great leason

what are the songs in the transitions between sections? I really enjoyed this video btw!!

In the variation section I kept having to go back cause I was getting distracted by Lisa and her facials she so cool and pretty

I hate the instramental for kill this love. Mainly because i play a brass horn and it just doesnt sound good. Sounds like a keyboard playing horns, and if its not then the mixing was really bad. The others are fine. The violin gets annoying when you know where it comes from and the fact that the phrase is never finished. It makes me anxious cause i want the violin to finish but it never does lol

would you say having a forumlas is the same as style or style is gravitating to using like a gitaur in every song? mind my typo

yeah its sad that most of the groups cant rly do they own thing and behind unique g idle for example they going just fine doing what they want and are rly successful with it but i can understand the company dont want to risk it but its so sad

I'm pretty sure the whole Black and Pink concepts thing is not official but rather something Blinks plagiarised from Red Velvet.

It's whistle of BP also an anti-drop? I'm pretty sure it is.

I’m really surprised one of these major k-pop groups hasn’t bought a song from Sweden. A fair number of major pop songs were written by Swedish songwriters. Those girls deserved better songwriting.

just one small correction: rosè sang in the first verses of whistle and stay (which are both dual titles) but other than that she hasn’t sang in a verse of any other title

15:48 stay and whistle?

Formulas are good for the identity of the group but they’re not beneficial for the musical growth

Another group that nails the whole vocal variation for me is Stray Kids. The way I would describe it is that each of the members is a distinct and unique narrator, if that makes sense?

I lold a lot during that Yeosang no lines

Purki in the chapter intros 💜💜 Also, at 18:39 lisa's facial expressions so distracting, i have to go back to hear you😂

i love her voice. she kinda sounds like rouge the bat

10:28 They don't make sense if you don't look at it. I mean, they have a meaning WITH ALL THE REST OF THE SONG and they get an instrumental part, with is very interesting.

Dude TWICE literally almost has a stronger formula than both of these I would know I'm a once

thats why jidols outdid

The reason why blackpink worked so good in the beginning is also becoz of the same formula method...i believe. Especially when grabbing global audience's attention...their music and style is ofcourse the main thing but ppl who go into the blackpink girls becomes easier since they're easy to identify who's who and that they all stand out individually. Ppl who dont know kpop or the group and watches their mv would instanlty figure out that one rapper, and they're hooked next. That's how they garnered a lot of fans. If their positions were all over the place in the beginning....getting hooked by the song and getting hooked by the members singing, it does a lot in getting deep into a group....especially for non kpop stans. Often times its common for international fans to find it a bit difficult to identify each members bcoz of the Asian feature they're not use to, but that was not much for bp. Now that kpop is more on a global scale....kpop stans are used to many kpop idols and finds it easier to learn the members in a group....as time changes, they start wanting something different now so alot of of them arent a fan of bps formula now. This is probably what it would be for it to work and not work at the same time lol.

I meeaann tbf why would they care when they've gotten to be the biggest Kpop Girl Group in the world. Limiting their reach doesn't mean a whole lot when they already are the biggest out right now. I agree completely that'd it'd be nice to see some variation, change and consistency but the markets don't seem to care much for creativity sadly.

So if Blackpink take and apply your advice they would be as succesful as this other group?

i would like to declare that in my "how would kep1er sing ladida by everglow" i fit all 9 members in the first verse therefore i am a better producer then Eden!!!

4th gen's formula way of making a song is just to make the most easy sounding song. Just slap in a beat, a shallow, repetitive & onomatopeic lyrics & make it upbeat with a "good" choreography then you'll rule the charts🤷🏾‍♀️

you could put a gun against my head and tell me to say what's the difference between ateez and stray kids and I would honestly just die instantly.

I don’t know. Not worried about the repeats. DV worked on the Mona Lisa for about 17 years. I’d like a kpop bop out sooner than that. Not life changing. On the treadmill. Got stuff to do.

You never really get an opportunity to be smart.

I looked up BLACKPINK's discography as you suggested in your video, and was surprised at how few songs they have compared to other groups. But that makes it even more surprising that they're the most popular girl group in the world! Maybe your musical tastes are too sophisticated to be able to enjoy BLACKPINK. They might not be interested in changing their highly successful business model. BLACKPINK won Time's 2022 "entertainer of the year" award, and this is why: "It continues to dominate on KZfaq, where BLACKPINK is the biggest musical act with over 83 million subscribers. You don't accomplish all that by being like other pop groups. Most have a limited lifespan: they age out, flame out, or see one member rise above. But BLACKPINK has managed to become the biggest girl group in the world precisely by allowing its members to be solo stars in their own right. The group may be bigger than the sum of its parts, but each of its parts is bigger than most other pop groups' combined efforts." Maybe when calculating BLACKPINK's output, the solo songs should be included, as well as the time each of these songs requires away from participating with the group. Also, they seem to have a lot of brand ambassadorships, and other obligations of which other groups have less or none. The solo songs etc of other groups should also be added. If at the end of all that, it turns out BLACKPINK still produces considerably less music, maybe that is actually a significant cause of their success. Does Teddy also produce all of BLACKPINK's solo songs? Are they also formulaic? Thank you for your analysis of Ateez and BLACKPINK. It must have taken a long time to do all the research. Best regards! 🙏🤩🌺

i ain't no fan of blackpink but the formula is clearly a success judging by the ocean of money they're drowning in, so if it's not a financial problem then what? is it an artistic problem? feels like it's one of those "well, you know, that's just like uh, your opinion, man" issues. is it really worth it spending 40 minutes debating such a subjective topic? i dunno i stopped after 15.

you got an interesting video idea but it's damaged because you're talking about the formulas yet at the end of the day the only difference is - YOU like one but don't like the other. there's no "objectivity" here. YOU like ateez formula. there are people who don't. there are people who don't like the blackpink formula, yet there are obviously a LOT of people who do. you could have just made an ateez focused video to praise ateez bc this is all that this video ended up being. absolutely ZERO praise for the girls and barely ANY criticism for edenary. in the end, your video title just translates to: why formulas are a problem (as explained through blackpink) but also when they work (as explained through ateez). it's very biased, not researched well enough, and all down to which formula YOU personally prefer. just one massive excuse to shit on blackpink, under the cover of "caring".