Thanks for that info. I'm sure it will be helpful to anyone wanting to jump to those sections :)

​@@dragondreams5503Thank you. You did an amazing job on the video.

I recommend Olde Swords Reign (Free on Drive Thru). It uses the 5e skeleton and the math is close. It has the 4 classic classes, feats for rogue and fighter, levels up to 12 and a good multiclassing rule. The things I'd criticise about the game are the races and the nonsensical hindrances which I recommend be ignored or cherry-picked to be available.

@@isaacmarx6277 we were trying Dungeon Crawl Classics and it’s been hit and miss so far, I’ll that game next thank you!

Repeat after me; I am running the game, and we are playing the game that I want to run.

Have you ever taken a look at Castles and Crusades? It scratches that modern d20 itch but does away with the skills & proficiency system in favor of their system called the Siege Engine. It takes the canvas of 1e and stretches it over the frame of 3e/modern d20.

@@uriahedwards It's multiple "printings" not editions bog me. How does it work? are they ALL compatible among themselves so i can play w/ books of different print versions unconcerned?

D&D 2e or AD&D 2e? There is a huge difference.

What, praytell, is D&D 2E?

I'm a fan of 3.5/pathfinder, played 2e back in the day and loved it, but everything I don't like gets fixed by 3.5/pathfinder

You would love Gloomhaven.

@@solaris_cc4353 What about Gloomhaven would I love?

@@dontyodelsohard2456 It's tactical, edge cases are covered, so much that there's no need for a GM. It's based around your build and you can customize the difficulty. It's got pretty secrets and overall it's a good cooperative game.

@@solaris_cc4353 Interesting, I'll keep that in mind, thank you.

Descending AC is better.

Yeah, I feel ya. That was my reaction too. BTW, for all the 5e fans out there, I don't have any problem other people liking it and I know that people play games for all sorts of reasons. I just don't like it, for the reasons I stated.

I personally would describe D&D as now being a game where groups are trying to act as if jointly making a novel with big bunches of it planned out in advance. It is lost on younger players how the arcs of their characters can evolve through emergent play of the DM setting challenges and the players confronting those challenges until everything emerges from the experience. D&D is less immersion centred and much less centred on emergent campaigns.

I agree with you on nearly everything. I would only say that some of the problems with 5E began with AD&D and grew in later editions.

That is cool. Were you thinking of 1E or 2E? Which bits?

In the AD&D books? Yeah, he got pretty heavy handed about the rules in that era, but before AD&D and after he was booted from TSR, he was a lot more chill I think. Also, the "basic" line tended to keep the it's-your-game-do-what-you-want vibe, even during the AD&D era.

AD&D 1e was created because people wanted a 'codified' set of rules to play tournaments with. It's the reason why 1e was so heavy handed. 0e and B/X was more along the lines of "here's the fundamentals, do with it as you will".

Right? Its like everyone forgot the system that ruled the space before 5e

I genuinely enjoyed 3.5, but just don't have the time and energy for it anymore. Currently running OSE for complete newbies and we're having a great time.

@@kontrarien5721 Glad to hear!

Ugh. D&D 2 through 3.5 are what made my tabletop switch to GURPS in the '90s.

@@cloud5buster I could never get into GURPS personally. Too generic

Anything to share about what you've done? It seems like there are several things that can be converted to d20 system: ascending AC, thief abilities, Cleric turn undead, etc. Do you use ability score based saving throws with DC's or do you use classic saving throws?

@@dragondreams5503 I don't do anything to change the core 5e system. So Saving Throws, classes, races and combat works the same as normal 5e. It's more about what I allow or don't allow, with a few changes to certain things. I'll give some examples of where my head is currently at. No Feats. That alone is huge. I ban some spells. Counterspell, Healing Word, Goodberry ( I want Pc's to forage ), as a few examples, are gone, and there will be more as I like a low/rare magic world. Light spell is gone, because I want exploration to be done with torches and lanterns. But that's a personal world thing. At character creation, players roll 3d6, 7 times. Apply 6 of those 7 to attributes as desired. No attribute can be higher than 18 ever, without magic. Also no attribute increase every 4 levels. No backgrounds, but players can take 2 tool profs and 2 skill profs. No Death Saves. Now you could just say dead at 0 hp and be done with it. However I'm going work it like this. Whatever your class hit die type is, is how far into the negatives you can still be alive. So a Wizard for example uses a d6, therefore they can live up to - 6 hp. At - 7 they die. 0 hp is unconscious but stable. At - 1 hp you lose 1 hp per round until you die. Coming up from 0 hp or lower cause 1 level of exhaustion. I don't like the exhaustion table as is, so I'll be changing that. Level 1 exhaustion will probably be - 1 to all rolls and 5' less move speed. Level 2 exhaustion will probably be - 2 to all rolls and - 10' less move speed etc. Max hp at level 1. Level 2 on hp must be rolled. Will allow rerolls for 1's, and allow fighters, barbarian, ranger and paladin to reroll a 1 or 2. For now I am only allowing elves, dwarves and halflings. Want to play a barbarian? No problem, you can only be a berserker. Thief and assassin for rogue. Hunter for ranger. Devotion for paladin, although I may allow vengeance as well. Clerics can only be the Life subclass, and can only use blunt weapons. I allow them to use martial weapons so they can use warhammer etc. I'm not allowing bards or monks, for now. Only fiend warlocks, and I'll allow shadow sorcerer as it suits my dark world. You can even drop skills in 5e and there are options in the DMG for doing just that, on page 263. You can also drop all passive checks, although I'm thinking I'll use it for hiding/stealth only. Also, all of the banned spells and feats can be given out as consumable magic items. So sure, a player might have access to counterspell, or healing word should they find a wand with a charge or 2 of them. Slower leveling. For levels 1 to 4 I may double the amount of xp needed. Level 5 plus, I may triple it. I won't be using the 5e experience system. I don't think I like milestone either, so possibly 1gp = 1 xp. I haven't worked that out yet. I also use a different initiative system and it allows for rolling every round. And things like how an evocation wizard can " sculpt spells, " so that the wizard can mold a fireball around friendly pc's in battle, so that they take less or no damage? Not happening. Gone. I'm also not allowing Divination wizards. I just personally don't want to deal with them. I'll be using Healer Kit Dependency and Slow Natural Healing. DMG p. 266, 267. I'm considering the Massive Damage rule on page 273, DMG. That might be overkill, so we'll see. I'll probably be using the Item-Based Encumbrance rules, from Carcass Crawler 2. The OSE Zine. I'll likely also be keeping track of time in the dungeon for the purpose of torches/lanterns and wandering monsters.10 mins to search a room, a combat etc, as is standard in OSE. Also the OSE reaction table and morale. Seems to me that many people don't know or remember that there are Morale rules in the 5e DMG, p 273. I haven't covered everything but I have covered the main stuff I think. Bottom line is 5e is more like OSR play and pretty deadly, with what I've discussed above. There still is a few things I am working out, but I am happy so far.

OSE Advanced FTW! Recently got back into the hobby after a much- longer-than-I-realized hiatus and have been running for a bunch of newbies. It's been great.

Sure I can give some examples. I don't change the core game at all. Most things I do are pretty simple actually, but when you add it all up, the result is 5e OSR style. Might be a bit long, but maybe someone will find this useful, so here it goes. Characters: abilities between 3-18, and can only be higher than 18 with magic. Roll 3d6 7 times, pick best 6 and arrange as desired. Apply racial bonuses normally. No attribute increases every 4 levels either. Max hp at level one. From level 2 on you roll for hp. You can reroll 1's. I also allow fighters, rangers, barbarians and paladins to reroll a 2. For now I'm not allowing Bard or Monk, but that's for my own personal world reasons. No magical subclasses. So no arcane tricksters or eldritch knights etc. For barbarian, berserker only, rogue thief or assassin, fighter champion or battle master, paladins devotion and I will allow vengeance. Personally I'm not allowing divination wizards. I just don't want to deal with them. Only Life Clerics allowed and they can only use blunt weapons. For this, I allow them to use martial weapons, so they can use warhammer etc. Also, evocation wizards can not " Sculpt Spells, " such as casting fireball into the battle in which the pc's are fighting and they take half or no damage. Silliness like that, and any other similar stuff that may come up, is simply gone from the game. Races: I'm only allowing Elf, Dwarf, Halfling and Human, for now. It's a personal world choice really. Slower leveling: From levels 1 to 4, double the normal xp required to level. 5 onward, triple the xp. I'm not playing published adventures, so this is easy. Also not using the standard 5e xp system. Maybe some type of milestone system or even xp for gold. I haven't worked that out as of yet. Feats: don't use them. This alone is huge for bringing character power levels down to reality. I may give consumable items, such as a wand with a charge or 2 of ( insert feat name ) to use, and then the wand turns to dust. No Backgrounds: At least not as far as picking one from the PH goes. They do get to pick 2 skill and tool profiencies. Banned Spells: Counterspell, Healing Word are gone and probably others as well, but those are the first 2. I won't allow Goodberry and spells like it because I want foraging to be a thing. No divination spells as I said above. Any banned spell may be found as a consumable with a charge or 2, similar to feats. I use Slow Natural Healing and Healers Kit Dependency from DMG p. 266, 267. Multiclassing: Not allowing it for the time being. Possibly some level of it later on. The idea of dipping makes my stomach ache. Dip into this class, dip into that class. No thanks. Encumbrance: I'll be using the awesome, Item-Based Encumbrance rules found in Carcass Crawler 2. It's the OSE-zine for those who don't know. Skills: It's entirely possible to remove them from the game, and the 5e DMG p. 263, in fact offers 3 ways you can do this. I like the first one, " Ability Check Proficiency. " Also you can simply drop passive checks, although I will use it for purposes of hiding/stealth only. So no auto-detecting traps or secret doors. In general, I do telegraph that kind of stuff, if I feel it makes sense in the moment. Death: No death saves, although I feel that system is not necessarily that bad. You could say dead at 0 hp and be done with it, however I'm using my own system. What ever your class hit die type is, is how far into the negatives you can live. For example a wizard has a d6 hit die, so they can live until - 6. At - 7 you die. At 0 hp you are unconscious but stable. From - 1 to - 6, as for our wizard, you lose 1 hp per round until you are stabilized from a party member or die. And when you come up from 0 hp or less, go ahead and take a level of Exhaustion. Actually, I'll be changing the Exhaustion table as well. I also use a different initiative system. It allows for rolling every round. There are Massive Damage rules in the DMG p. 273, for extra deadly goodness, but I'm feeling it might be overkill. It would definitely be the case for levels 1 to 4. I just want to point out that it's there. There are Morale rules, DMG p. 273. I'll also be using the standard b/x ( OSE) monster reaction table. Finally, I'll be keeping track of turns in the dungeon, as per b/x, for torches/lanterns, searching, wandering monsters etc. There's more, but this should help someone who's interested, in heading down the path to making 5e more fun to play if OSR is your thing.

@@kontrarien5721 I've recently switched from OSE Advanced to Dragonslayer, which was recently released. It's basically an updated version of B/X OSE Advanced. Combat is a bit more modern. Clerics can only turn undead 3 times a day, and can't auto-turn skeletons until level 4. I prefer that. The Monk is not a martial artist. It's basically like Friar Tuck and is a master of the quarterstaff. Very cool. The art is great to downright awesome, with many TSR era artists. The cover is by Jeff Easley for example. Overall great game. But yeah, I'll still play OSE as well.

Ah, okay. I appreciate your well reasoned response, and I respect your opinion :). I have nothing against adventures that have stories, or roleplaying. Yeah, I played a bunch of 2e back in the 90's and there was a ton of roleplaying. 5e just feels to me like it's only about story-gaming.

@@dragondreams5503I'll agree with that---in modern play, the story and the character's place in the story is all important. That's why they are so hard to kill. Too much emphasis is placed on the initial characters in the "narrative." In older editions and in older styles of play---we had stories, but the stories didn't depend on any one character. If your character didn't make it--and it could be due to simple dumb luck from a failed saving throw--the story continued and you rolled up a new character. 5e has a much more top down approach to the emergent stories and continuity of play we grew up with--and that misplaced emphasis really does screw up the game part of the game.

Definitively no, the game is terrible or at least flawed enough that it is not worth houseruling it

@@isaacmarx6277 I agree if it comes to the massive overgrown megastarter-set it has become. Take the free to download Basic rules, Black Flagg (also available for free) or the free PDF of Shadowdark, and you get 5e-ish games which are a good introduction into the hobby. Many people don't care for alternatives, they only see D&D because it has become the most widespread game. You can catch them exactly at the moment, when the Starter Set, Essentials Kit or the free Basic Rules are "finished". Don't get me wrong, I will not spend ANY money on WotC-5e-products at all. I keep my core-books for reference and becaus my daughter plays it with her friends. But I already planted the seed, when I DMed 1e for those kids. All of them got a copy of Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game (which cost 3.50EUR back then...) and they started playing this. Ease of play, encouraging real roleplaying, creativity and fantastic heroism. They were all: Oh that is so much easier and we have freedom in everything - without those 10billions of rules. It nortured their imagination. I gave my kid a Swords&Wizardry Core book last month, now they are enjoying this... But: If you want catch mice, use cheese... My daughter plays D&D for 7 years now, and she was 10. She knows Oe, 1e, 2e, Basic, The Dark Eye (a german P&P game) in various editions and LARP. She is a DM now for 3 years, and she and her friends are exploring a multitude of different games. One started DMing 3e after she got the Core Books from me. And they are exploring different genres now, my daugther has created a grimdark clockwork-punk gameworld since last christmas and her notes are fun to read. I like her approach. But all those kids would not be playing without the introduction via 5e (the essentials kit which I gave my daughter...) I am not defending the shortcomings of 5e, but I also do not have to agree with the creator of the game. I won't support The Dark Enemy from the Coast anymore, but I will use my tools to get people into playing Old School systems and classic style games...

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the game. To be fair, you and your group were all kids back then. Kids don't usually have great common sense, and some players (even today) erroneously see RPGs as a competitive thing. Rulings over rules can work, and does for plenty of groups. The one thing I can suggest is just try it. Maybe run an OSR retroclone yourself (White Box and Basic Fantasy are great ones to start with) and just try making some house rules during the game to cover what they purposefully left vague for that reason. Be the GM you would want to play with.

@@drunkendelver1966 Yes that was 2nd ed and we were all kids. This is why 3rd edition is the edition I have the most good memories about. Because I got the books for myself and started GMing, and I wouldn't run it like a combo master story telling game. I did still run it like a simulation game, just with more rigid rules, it worked wonderfully. But 4th and 5th is just trash, they went full on story telling game for those.

@@drunkendelver1966 Thanks! You actually said pretty much everything I wanted to say in response. Well put!

Sounds like you had a bad GM (and there's also the kid factor). Bad GM's suck :( In fact, maybe I should do a video on the ethics of house-ruling, because I think it's really wrong for the GM to try to kill the characters. I've had bad experiences, myself :(. I still believe in rulings over rules, though, because, to me, that's at the heart of TTRPG's. I want to be in a game that more-or-less makes sense and feels "realistic" (even though neither magic nor vague systems like HP and AC are realistic). Rulings over rules, house rules, etc. go a long way to accomplishing that for me. But, yeah, you definitely have to have an ethical GM you can trust. What I try to do is (1) tell my players beforehand how I'll rule and see if they still want to do it, (2) be consistent about my rulings and, (3) ask my players to hold me accountable. Case in point, my players realized that the people who made the dungeon had setup a spiraling dead-end to be a place to get ambushed by skeletons. I was tired, and it was toward the end of the session, so I asked for a surprise role. One of my players called me on that and pointed out that they had realized what was going on, so I didn't require it. I won't go their way all the time, or let people fast-talk me into anything, but I will be swayed if I think it's the right thing for the table.

@@dragondreams5503 yeah, everyone says that. But I keep having bad experiences with GMs that don't follow the rules. But now a days is more like metagaming in favor of the players, which I also consider not fun. But that comes from the storytelling culture I suppose.

How very clever.

@@kontrarien5721 Snide remarks aside, this video is a TTRPG hipster complaining that the most popular TTRPG is too mainstream. That's it, that's the video.