Things wrong with this video: 1. Sauron is Immortal too, By that logic that makes him bad. 2. Southern Mordor isn't that bad, in fact the land around the Sea of Núrnen is arable. 3. Orcs are incapable of good and have limited free will. 4. Orcs don't get along well at all. "The meat's back on the menu, boys!" 5. "War crimes" yeah, right. Because it's not like the Orcs pillaged and burned everything in their path, right? 6. Again, if Orcs are corrupted Elves, and Elves are supposedly evil, that makes Orcs still evil. 7."White supremacy" Remember the scene where the Haradrim completely destroy the Rohirrim with Mumakil? Both the Easterlings and Haradrim were pretty badass and formidable in their own right. They were fighting for Sauron because they wanted a reward along with having a bone to pick with Gondor. Not too black and white here. 8. Minas Tirith, not Gundor. 9. Elves were responsible for plenty of progress in Middle Earth. In the First Age, they have flying airships that could travel into the void. But overall magic and fantasy in Middle Earth had been fading away for Millennia, so the Elves aren't to blame anyway. 10. Elrond didn't want Arwen to marry Aragorn because Aragorn would've died eventually (Sometime after the elves left Middle Earth) and Arwen would grieve for the rest of her immortal life. Besides, Aragorn has the blood of Numenor (Extremely long life), AND Elrond himself is of Mixed Human/Elf Ancestry. 11.The Ring of Power is Sauron's life force. He is bound to its fate and its fate is bound to him. They can't be different because they're both the same entity. 12... Actually, I could go on forever, but I've already done this way longer than any sane person would, so I'm going to stop. Anyway, screw this excuse for left-wing propaganda. I used to like After Hours, now I'm not so sure. You can tell none of them know anything about LOTR or the Silmarillion and are just reciting from a script. Good day.

and therein lies the strength of The Enemy, his ability to deceive and that he is good. Sauron - The Deceiver

I love how they basically acknowledged that Silmarillion disrupts this entire theory and then dismiss it.

I'm impressed with the passion of the commenters refuting the points in this video. I'm a massive Tolkien nerd myself and clearly see the absurdity in this video, but that's all it is, comedy.

the Orcs only march into battle together as they are backed up by the dark magic of Sauron, he is effectively controlling them, when he dies the Orcs panic and flee, and resort to infighting

No good guy can be defeated by throwing a single object of theirs into a volcano. That is strictly villain weakness.

"Something something I detest alagory." -J.R.R. Tolkien

"The Ring is evil because it literally contains a chunk of Sauron's soul and will inside it, and any action you take under its influence is inevitably to the Dark Lord's benefit. Hobbits are the exception because they have no great ambitions, but they are far from the rule of thumb." There.

I love how Soren is the LOTR geek.

The orcs are a subjugated class because Sauron subjugates them. And, yeah. immortality does corrupt... aaand it's Sauron's fault. He gave the humans immortal and turned them into wraiths. Whisps of humanity hurt by base fears and desires being exploited. The elves are still there because Sauron's presence prevents the rightful age of man from comming. The elves only leave at the end because Sauron removes the last thing tying them to the world. Even if the free people's are unreasonable narrators, Sauron is still the source of all super-human evil in the 3rd age. As to what the ring actually does: it lies. It does just enough to convince it's bearers to embrace their darkest ambitions. Because hobbits just want comfort, food and friends, they're able to carry the ring a lot more effectively, but give it to somebody who, say, wants to protect the nature of the world, and they'll become a eco-terrorist justifying horrible actions in the interest of their desires until they twist and corrupt into an immortal shell of whatever noble ambition they once had.

The immortal argument isn't extremely effective when you realize that sauron is also immortal

Orcs get along well and are equal? um, no. In the Two Towers orcs and urukhai get in a fight and in Return of the King extended edition orcs get in a fight with each other on the tower of Cirith Ungol and on the way to the Black Gate.

If Sauron wasn't evil he would not have joined Melkor. pretty sure we can all agree that Melkor is evil.

It doesn't take very much Tolkien lore to refute most of the points made.

The power of the ring changes on the power of the being wielding it That’s why Gandalf refused to take the ring from Frodo

"Hello, we understand literally nothing about Sauron.

Immortality doesn't prevent progress. Saruman and the orcs are all immortal and they were industrial as fuck.

"Sauron poured his malice and will to dominate all living things into the ring" I don't think you can have malice and the will to dominate all life without being evil

Okay, I'm the first to agree that the elves are bunch of immortal entitled racist douches. But if that were Saurons beef with them, then hello pot meet kettle. The fact that Sauron (who is another immortal being BTW) is older than any of the elves, and is driven by continuing the chaotic legacy of his master Morgoth (who is essentially Satan). If we're talking about immortal beings holding the world back and halting progress because of their own vendettas, Sauron takes the cake, he and Morgoth are the reason the orcs exist in their misery in the first place. The elves may not be perfect but they were decent enough to realize they weren't helping things by remaining and moving on at the end of the story. Imagine Sauron ever doing that?

I like to think of it as the one ring amplifies the natural power of the wearer. The reason why we only see it as an invisibility ring is because we only see hobbits wear it, creatures that are naturally stealthy

Regarding the comment about Elrond wanting to keep his eleven blood pure...Elrond is half human. Sooooooo.....🙄

So, good guys secretely being evil is finally boring and bad guys secretely being heroes is the new big thing?

"Hating orcs is not a 1 to 1 parallel to real world racism" Damn Soren being way ahead of us all. The DnD community thanks you

The Silmarillion totally counts in this debate, so by "over ruling" that, your entire argument is invalid.

They have no fucking idea! It's so painful!

Also... Sauron literally made Mordor into the shit hole it is. If you folks had read the books numerous times like I have, you'd realize this. Instead of focusing on making Mordor beautiful and lovely, Sauron mostly demolishes it in search for resources.

"What if Sauron isn't evil, but the RING is evil?" But Sauron made the ring himself

"Game of Thrones kills off all the non-white characters" *shows a scene of Greyworm being injured but not dying to falsely prove a point.

This logic is so stupid anyone notice how they conviently skip over the fact that Sauron joins Melkor and all the events of the Silmarillion, basically saying that "that doesn't count because nobody read that and it's not a movie." This is ridiculous.

Basically the background plot of Hataraku Maou-sama (The Devil is a Part-Timer). Except Sauron is definitely evil. The numerous races in Middle-Earth that do his bidding do so because of (1) magical compulsion (lesser-minded beings like Orcs/Goblins/Trolls), (2) fear (Haradrim), and (3) self-interest (Corsairs). Not because Sauron actually has it in their best interest. He wants dominion and power, he cares not for what standard of living those under his dominion get.

"Imagine if Thomas Jefferson was still alive..." No Federal Reserve.

I so love when they talk about things without thinking about the very basis of they argoument...

Amusing as this is, it kind of glosses over the orcs many atrocities we see DURING the movie. Just because "I want a piece of the pie" doesn't excuse sacking, raping, and pillaging innocent villagers, murdering and eating their helpless children. They never once try to negotiate or peacefully seek an end to their conflict. The first appearance of Sauron's forces, they straight up murder a guy for no reason (the hobbit on the border to Bree), the first appearance of the orcs is when they stalk, track, and attack the Fellowship with no warning, and end with kidnapping (with no parley, truce, or explanation) Pippin and Merry. This is straight up the work of villains. Never, at any point, do we see them act in any good or reasonable manner. Also, Sauron himself made the ring. So, if the ring is evil, Sauron made it that way. Also, Mordor is a pit of ugliness because the ORCS made it that way. Mordor USED to be beautiful, full of life and peace, but the orcs strip-mined it, destroyed most life, and turned it into a sludge pit of industry and slavery. Also, elves don't own slave, nor do humans. But, surprise! Orcs do! So, who are the bad guys again? Also, Elrond didn't want his daughter to marry Aragorn because he knew Aragorn was mortal and would die, while Arwen would be left alone on Middle Earth, immortal (since she didn't travel to Elf Heaven with the others), in solitude and in mourning the rest of eternity, and he didn't want that fate for his daughter. He actually respected and loved Aragorn (who actually DOES have half-elf blood in him, as a Dunedain). This is kind of like the "Empire in Star Wars was really good, and are just protecting themselves from a band of terrorists" BS we hear from snarky bloggers and serious right-wing conspiracy theorists. It's a cute little gag until you actually think it through with an ounce of logic. The Empire massacred a PLANET of INNOCENT people because they thought one or two of them were rebels. That's like saying the USA is fully justified in nuking and ending all life in the entirety of Arabia, Persia, and Mesopotamia because some terrorists live there, and then making pretend that we wouldn't be the most evil country in this part of the galaxy for doing that. In other words, it works as a momentary, funny, ha-ha, "as if" sort of gag, but doesn't actually work as a serious argument.

I'd just like to second what everyone else is saying and point out that Soren won like, the first five seconds of argument. The only reason this video lasted any longer than that is because the others pretty much literally said "The actual lore and canon of what we're discussing here, which, if taken into account like it should be would win you this argument right now, doesn't count because I arbitrarily decided that. From what we see in the two and a half hour condensed version of three books which don't include the much longer book the author wrote specifically to explain all this, the orcs must be oppressed and Sauron must be a George Washington-esque revolutionary, even though we see in the actual movie that they're actually the oppressors." Excellent premise, that.

Soren proves that the guy who brings the Silmarillion to the LotR fight always has the upper hand.

Elrond is peeved over the relationship with Aragon because she is a half elf (they are given the choice of mortality or immortality) and if she chooses to be with Aragon, which she does, she will become mortal, which is something they completely skipped over in the movies

To be fair to Elrond, can you imagine being raised by an immortal as a mortal? Knowing you'd die because your mom chose to have kids with someone whose blood would essentially seal your death warrant? That shit ain't cool. Also imagine being a mom and watching your kids die as a matter of course. Elrond's just looking out for his daughter's sanity, and his potential grandchildren's well being.

I always liked the idea that the ring wasn't actually that powerful, but just capable of manipulating people. Like one of its powers is to make people want it, and its that desire that makes everyone fight over it rather than any actual power that it bestows on the wearer

The fact that Soren knows all this Lord of the Rings info only strengthens my ❤ for him

Feels like the Rings of Power writers got their notes from this video...

Ok. The one ring only gives hobbits invisibility because they lack power of there own and are innocent. More powerful races like you know elves would become incredibly powerful and corrupt. That's why the other races arn't allowed to carry the ring.

Sauron literally tortured thousands of elves to turn them into orcs, yep he seems like a swell guy

I like how they bring up the lore just so they can ignore it.

3-4 years later and the salt in this comment section sustains me still.

Does Katie have a video where her argument isn't about racism? Hell, I get that literature and film are filled with examples of racism. But at some point a difference argument might spice up the video.

Orcs aren't like veterans at all. They're like mutants who are descended from POW's who were tortured and experimented on. Orcs were never elves. Their ancestors were.

To be fair, this is something J.R.R. Tolkien also grappled with, and never really found a good solution for. As a devout Catholic, he believed that evil could never create, but only corrupt. Which meant that the Orcs, at one point, had to have been good, and then corrupted. Which meant they were still capable of doing good, even as nasty, brutish, and enthusiastically cannibal sadistic as they were. Tolkien struggled to find a way to explain this, and to rectify it in universe, and while he had a few theories to bat around, he never finalized it. It remains one of the biggest Tolkien questions out there, and it's kind of sad we didn't see him explore the implications of 'moral Orcs' more.

2:13 calls a group "...lovable misfits" and then shows same group rejoicing over an opportunity to engage in cannibalism. ... yeah...lovable... Man, I didn't even think of myself as that much of a Tolkien fan until I started watching this video and felt my ire rising. Time to go geek out.

What, like from the Silmarillion? I haven't read it, but isn't he literally evil in there?

ASOIAF has plenty of black characters, they were just written out of the show Game of Thrones. Also, racism and discrimination are major themes in the books.

The reason the one ring is so important is because it amblifies the power of the user. So in the hands of a weak Hobbit or dwarf it grants invisibility but in the hands of a more powerful creature it would be incredibly powerful, that's why gandalf makes such a huge effort to never touch the ring, it would make him God like and it would corrupt him

Among many, one of the key problems in this video is that they start out talking about why Sauron is actually good. And then they talk for the rest of the time about why orcs are innocent (they're wrong about that too, of course). They give very little evidence for why Sauron himself could possibly be good, which is what the title promised to do.

I have rarely felt an anger as great as this, there is no way sauron is good

2:57 - since when did killing people who have something you want make you a "good guy".

RIP Cracked. Thank you for the amazing content over the years, we’ll miss you

The cringe at 5:20 almost killed me 😂😂😂

When I was a kid my dad (whose read the silmarillion) told me the ring has different powers depending on who's wearing it. It just makes hobbits invisible because their whole thing is that they're good at not being seen. For humans it would give them like super strength or whatever and maybe knowledge for the elves.

Can't believe they brought up the Silmarillion and didn't mention how the Dwarves were created and then forced to go back to sleep under a mountain until several eons passed. Talk about your racial oppression.

New item on my bucket list: Enter a crowded restaurant and shout "Everyone that likes Lord of the Rings is racist now!''

So Katie doesn't know who Boromir is but busts out Glorfindel at the end for a gag XD

thing is elrond is a Half Elf so to say he wants to keep the pure blood is pretty dumb

Oh fuck. Not this again. Sorry but your definition of "good guy" is fucked if it includes "into genocide". I'm all for humourisly misinterpreting movies with straw arguments, but I'm out on this one.

I lost it when he called Galadriel "a crazy, old, forest-hermit" lmao

Jesus. I love this sketch! Laughed my ass off. "It's her own fault. Fell in front of a train drunk".

They mentioned that part of Sauron's soul is in the ring but don't play off it too well. With that one could argue that Sauron is just trying to regain a part of himself that he has lost (in the ring) and that someone else now owns.. Imagine if some force had a part of you and randomly you just felt someone leeching of you to accomplish something, that is the literal definition of a parasite, they don't help Sauron by using 'his power' in fact they use it against him.

Wow, just forgetting the fact that Sauron's boss enslaved the elves, tortured them to the point of disfigurement, and completely brain-washed them into doing his bidding. And how was the ring evil when it didn't exist for THOUSANDS of years after Sauron was already conquering peaceful sovereign lands in the North?

Whenever I hear some someone say "saw-ron" my ears start bleeding

It took me a lot of reading the Silmarillion, and lore digging, but from what I was able to dig up; Sauron...or Mairon, if you will, Had good motive for his actions. He wanted order brought to Arda. Something he believed Melkor could successfully do, being the mightiest of the Valar. His seduction and eventual corruption by darker powers mixed with ([near blindly] following) those ideals are what kept him allied to his master...even after Melkor went full Morgoth and became Tolkien's equivalent to Lucifer. Sauron/Mairon is clearly the hero of his own story, just as Morgoth/Melkor was, and the (First Second and Third Age) orcs/goblins, and Balrogs were. Bare in mind the names Saruon(second dark lord), and Gorthaur (Morgoths number 1) were what the Elves, Valar, and other free races called him. He still saw himself as Mairon (same goes for Melkor and the name Morgoth). (They) only stuck with those names and being purely evil entity's b/c that's what happens when you live long enough to see your self become the villain. Feel free to disagree with me, this is just MY interpretation.

Goblins and Orcs hated each other to the point that when Frodo's mithril shirt was found they killed each other over it. Sauron developed a society war and violence, a society where might makes right, and this is why it collapses instantly the moment Sauron is destroyed. Maybe the orcs, goblins, and trolls could have gotten along without his evil influence, but that doesn't seem likely.

"Ragtag group of lovable misfits." "Looks like meats back on the menu boys!" LMAO

We can just pretend like this episode never happened, right?!

The automatic subtitles will actually have "Sauron" for Soren at times.

actually shadow of mordor shows mordor was a beutiful place until sauron returns curropting everything

I really feel Soren's pain. It must be terrible to just sit there and have the Silmarilion completely disregarded, and to have Boromir called Browny McShield Fight Man. I usually enjoy After Hours but this was just terrible. On another note, The Fellowship of the Ring states that the Ring gives different powers to different people according to their personalities. Frodo can turn invisibile, and in the book has sharpened senses, because of his personality. Same goes for Gollum. Sauron can use the ring to literally dominate. If Gandalf took it who knows what kind of power you'd get. The Ring is not only a hunk of metal with Sauron's soul inside a la Horcrux, but is also an incredibly powerful magical artifact.

Elrond is a half elf! He has a human parent! He literally doesn't want Arwen to choose to be mortal, because then she'll die in a shockingly short amount of time, instead of going to elf heaven with him and their family and all the cool dudes.

Small but vital point. Tolkein hated allegory and did not write his stories with any intention to paint a picture of the world as it was in his time. He would probabaly disagree with this entire discussion and call it ludicrous.

You're applying to real world logic to a fantasy realm in this: in the real world, there is no race of pure evil, it just doesn't exist. In fantasy? Sure, orcs can be evil just because they are. Second, and more importantly, the whole point of LotR is that everyone is a dick. The good guys aren't evil but they're still jerks, except the hobbits. The hobbits are essentially extremely suburban people, but they're peaceful enough and generally pretty nice.

Harry Potter also turned Crabb from white to black so that evens out.

TJ 2017- YOU FREED THE WHAT??

1. Melkor took Eru's children, the Elves, and corrupted them to serve his own cause. 2. Orcs are naturally violent and will kill eachother in an instant for own personal gain. 3. Orcs make their territory wastelands. For example, Ithilien used to be a beautiful Gondorian garden. When Sauron took it over most living things there died, such as trees. Saruman also cut down Fangorn using orcs. 4. Immortality does prevent progress, that's why Eru made Men mortal, he sees them as the race that gets things done. 5. Dwarves and Elves dislike eachother because, I believe, the Dwarves helped in the fall of Gondolin, but I'm not sure, it's something like that. I do know that the Dwarves of Moria had a close friendship with those of Eregion.

So Sauron is the good guy because he's an underdog and his corruptions are disliked? He and his corrupted beings are hated because their very nature is destructive. Elves believe in preservation of things while their counter race, the orcs, just wish to destroy and corrupt it.

A wedding ring, the one ring to rule them all

The ring is proportional to the power of the person who has it

I can't tell if this is meant to be serious or not. The Silmarillion doesn't count? I really hope this is just a joke

"ok, so the Silmarillian 100% invalidates our argument and is as Cannon as it get, so we are just going to discard it and pretend it doesn't count so we can make an argument that instantly falls apart under any real cannon scrutiny" ~cracked

Actually, Gondor is the region, Minas Tirith is the actual place attacked in ROTK

I watched one of your other videos and immediately subscribed. Great material, great chemistry, great stuff, and... I'll say great one more time....great 👻

Sauron literally covers the land in darkness. That is something that was not captured in the movie; orks could only move at night so Sauron blocked out the light. That would not be good for anything.

u forget to say that orcs fight agaist other orcs as well and the eat humans elves dwarfs and other orcs

Thank god, After Hours is the only reason I'm still subbed.

superbly written and performed. this was the zenith of Cracked content.

This was brilliantly done! Bravo!

"would america of helped out in ww2 if TJ was president" yeh cause you know, pearl harbor ? D:

Sauron and his forces sacked villages filled with innocent people in both the 2nd and 3rd age

yeah, Mordor's army is so united that when the goblin wants to eat the hobbits' legs, the orc leader slaughters him and yells "Meat's back on the menu, boys!" ... maybe this was funny when it posted, but mostly it makes my brain itch.

1:26 nice try, that's the Witch King of Angmar

Everyone in this video made completely idiotic claims except for Soren, who utterly demolished them. So they kept cutting him off. "Are you really going to play the race card in a fantasy world?" Pretty much the point where I lost it XD

but sauron was evil before the ring

Well, it's never explicitly stated that Lavender sh*gged Ron. Although you can't blame a girl for trying; that ginger man is gorgeous...

The blooper at the end got me!