Why So Many Double Hits?

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New Jersey Historical Fencing Association

New Jersey Historical Fencing Association

Ай бұрын

Double hits in HEMA are often caused by our lack of feeling any danger or threat due to our equipment. Your longsword sparring-or any weapon for that matter-can vastly improve once you take this into account.
See more on traditional blossfechten, or fencing with openings: • Discard HEMA Gear for ...
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Intro music: The altered segment of “Master of the Feast” by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Attribution 3.0 International License. Kevin McLeod in no way endorses this video.

Пікірлер: 11
@LongswordRussia
@LongswordRussia Ай бұрын
I don’t know how Google will translate my words from Russian, but I would also like to leave a couple of remarks on this topic. Much respect to the author for drawing attention to the problem of lack of fear, but it seems to me that this is not the main reason for double hits at all. For reasons of creating educational and training conditions for historical fencing, sports swords for sparring were introduced almost from the very beginning, in which the main striking zone was significantly lighter. There’s not even anything to argue about here, because training injections requires bending a spring. This leads to the fact that average sports blades are overwhelmingly less rigid along the axis, and are not heavy enough for the natural physical condition of the owners. They can rather be considered standardized. The swords themselves may be close in overall weight to historical prototypes, but the weight distribution of sporting models makes the striking part lighter for safer stabbing. As a result, the comparison of maximum loads excludes real forces, which, due to the higher rigidity of the blade against bending and more individual values ​​of the mass of the chopping part of the blade, would lead to an expansion of the range of different forms of force. As the range of maximum and minimum forces for slashing increases to historical differences, fencers are forced to consider not just the chance of hitting an opponent, but also the energy value of such an attack. Here it is no longer a matter of fear of a threat, but of consolidating the skills of reacting to different types of efforts to have an effect on the target. For example, a fighter may be aware of the difference between deflecting after a sword hits a sword, or a halberd hits a sword. He will understand this as a gradation of his work efforts. In some cases, one sword can strike another sword with a force close to that of a halberd. A situation of higher variety of effort types leads to a shift in the value of all fencing skills, and a change in priorities in the need to hit the enemy only taking into account the speed factor. If the sword has little spring when it hits a person, then it can even disrupt his position in space, displacing his entire body, or not just the enemy’s sword, but completely both of his hands that hold the weapon. It is no longer possible to safely train with a weapon of such physical properties, but one can understand how, with a simultaneous hit, one of the blows will be less significant. I believe that such logic did not contradict the requirement to train the basic popular techniques during the Renaissance, when spring federschwerts already existed. The value of learning to combine cuts and thrusts still remains, even if the sparring weapons differ from the more variable individual combat weapons of this historical time. But when the fencers of the long-past Middle Ages saw different types of swords of their time existing simultaneously, they could automatically imitate the manner of fighting with some type of forceful technical action, learning from each other what is the logic of simulating some kind of fighting technique. Now this approach is practically impossible, because modern users by default perceive the parameters of weapons as equal, as if this sports equalization should have total prevalence. If there were now a mechanism for taking into account the energy value of cutting, and how many percent of the mutual action of attack forces the quality of the influence of each of the damaging factors is taken away - fencers would have a way to adapt their techniques to predict the result of mutual hits (and corrections). Simply fear of a threat is not enough for the ability to calculate the comparative percentage of the benefit of defeat. We need to continue to look for ways to simulate fencing situations, and probably create sensors for the physical force of defeat. Otherwise, for a long time there will not exist a model of instantaneous reliable assessment to which both fencers can more quickly adapt their skills (in comparison with trying to solve problems of gain while simultaneously losing at the expense of personal imagination). By and large, in reality, there are no equivalent double hits; the situation can rather be explained as the lack of evaluation systems based on the maximum number of all factors. During a fight, a fencer is not able to maintain a multi-factor system for assessing simultaneous defeats, and this should not be expected.
@noahtodras
@noahtodras 13 күн бұрын
What are those gloves? They look like brigandine, pretty snazzy!
@stuartking84able
@stuartking84able 23 күн бұрын
So another potential reason for the sheer amount of doubles: We dont typically train to recognise when and why they happen. We learn parries, attacks and counter attacks. But do we train when to recognise when its time to defend and when its safe to attack? Right of way systems will typically have rules based on experience. E.g. one rule will say something like 'if the opponent is moving forwards they have priority'. This isnt just an arbitrary rule. If your opponent is moving forwards they are planning to attack you, otherwise they wouldnt be moving forwards, so you need to prioritise your defence in that moment. Other rules: if they have their sword extended pointing at you, they have priority. Of course they do, if you attack and impale yourself on their sword, thats on you! If they voluntarily gain your blade, they are preparing to attack you. If they voluntarily disengage from your blade, they are preparing to attak you. I led a training session where we used right of way rules to quickly analyse why a double occured. At the end of the session there was great fencing going on and few to no doubles. I doubt that has been sustained, though. Needs to be trained again and again. Fighting with a sword is not intuitive. We cant expect people to keep safe without training.
@The_Okami
@The_Okami 15 күн бұрын
Imo it takes at least two years of fencing or lots of training to start getting past doubles. Even when you get more experience it still happens
@TheVanguardFighter
@TheVanguardFighter Ай бұрын
I disagree with this analysis. People that got in duels back in the day cared way more about honor and reputation than personal safety, which is why they dueled each in the first place. Also it was fairly common for both people in a duel to be injured in the early modern period
@Tarleon
@Tarleon 27 күн бұрын
Double hits occur in hema because they are rewarded in tournaments. Or more specifically, because hits are rewarded in tournaments. Also, because we (wrongfully) try and discourage them by punishing people who do them. This goes against virtually all the developmental studies which observe that humans respond more strongly towards rewards than they avoid penalties. So, if you want to reduce double hits - incentivise the behaviour which avoids double hits; reward fencers for their defensive actions such as parries etc. Can confirm, it works.
@JunelieArthur111
@JunelieArthur111 25 күн бұрын
Interesting. Do you have any suggestions to a typical HEMA competition ruleset that can help incentivize defensive action?
@Tarleon
@Tarleon 24 күн бұрын
@@JunelieArthur111 Sure. The broad idea is reward the actions you want to see. This weaponises the participant fencers' inclination to min-max for scores into the behaviour you want to see. The way we go about it is, on any given exchange: If you score a hit, +1 points; If you parried an attack, performed a beat before attacking, or closed the line when attacking, +1 points; If you defended against an attack which comes after your hit (an afterblow). +1 points. So a fencer can get up to 3 points on a given exchange; 1 point for attacking and 2 points defending - before and after their (successful) attack. This weights the scoring paradigm towards defence. There are a few tweaks you have to keep in mind to make this work, because (as I observed above) fencers will always look to optimise for maximum points. Probably the most important ones are: 1) if the fencers separate before a hit lands, any points for defending prior to the hit reset. This means that they can't farm their defence points and then just look for a single time attack; and 2) you can only get 1 point in each category. This incentivises diverse approaches (i.e. being good at defending and attacking) rather than just specialising at one thing and spamming that over and over. The main advantage of this approach is that you now have given the fencers a reason to look for defensive actions - it gives them *points*. So, they will do your work for you in correcting their actions to maximise their point gain. The secondary advantage of this approach is that you are giving out much more validation. Even losing fencers can earn points for their efforts to defend themselves. This can make tournament matches much less oppressive for inexperienced fencers. Even if they are losing all their matches, they feel recognised for the actions that they are doing.
@russmitchellmovement
@russmitchellmovement 15 күн бұрын
@@Tarleon Have done something similar to this and happy to vouch that it works.
@Chroma710
@Chroma710 27 күн бұрын
I don't necessarily think it's the equipment at all. It's just how people ignore your weapon's threat to them and rush in like a bull. I had a guy throw right to left oberhaus so I thought a good response to that would be a zwerch, except he just ignored it and continued to combo the cut to the opposite side and proceeded to shove his face in my sword's point. Mind that this was with padded swords and no equipment, plus we're not allowed to thrust for safety's sake but that just made people think that having the point in their face meant no threat because you can't intentionally thrust.I really don't want to hurt my opponents but constantly worrying about them not impaling themselves impedes my own fencing ability too. I think it's a lot more complex than just gear making you feel safer, as it happens even without any gear.
@Nala15-Artist
@Nala15-Artist 25 күн бұрын
Honestly, if they abandon responsibility for their own bodies, not your fault. You can't live everybody else's lives for them.
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