Fascinating how every one says he’s wrong and then when they describe what the lock is for they state exactly what he said. Yes you can easily break the arm. He’s saying pulling it off at speed without injuring someone is almost impossible. He’s not talking about sliding into Kesa and face planting the guy while destroying his arm. He’s not talking about purposely wrenching the arm like Tyson. He’s saying arm locking for compliance without injury is very difficult. Perhaps if this was all you practiced you might pull it off but without physical superiority and amazing skill you’d be breaking that arm.

Yes, joint manipulations from the standing position need to be applied with explosive power.

Nice. Your central point, that standing armlocks are not intended to be submissions is correct. You either destroy the elbow, or they are actually takedowns, where you put the other guy ion the ground at your feet. In the old days of the koryu combat arts, putting the other guy at your feet was the objective of both standing locks and throws so that you could deploy your knife/dagger and end the confrontation. IJF Judo used to allow standing armlocks in shiai, but outlawed them because of all the injuries that resulted when they were applied.

I cant believe this channel has under 40k subscribers. Been watching you for a while. Very solid instruction and reasoning. Very easy to take what your showing and implement some new techniques into live training. Thank you!

This is actually the way most joint locks in karate are meant to be done, despite them almost always being taught as if they were restraining techniques. I actually covered all of that in a recent article on my site, so this is surprisingly timely. Thanks for sharing!

That first armpit lock(waki gatame) really works though. I saw a video of a Judo player doing the first technique very fast and broke his opponents arm. Also I stumbled upon a video of complation for Nippon Kempo and they did it all the time standing and get the tap. Shinya Aoki did it as well in one of his MMA match. My personal problem with these there is no safe realistic way to train standing submissions you either go explosively and injure your partner or you dont do it at all

How about taking a standing armlock to the ground by pulling his hand and dropping your weight on it? Now the ground controls his shoulder.

Agreed in a way, in HEMA our grappling locks tend to be stand up, their main purpose is almost always to take someone to ground for extra punishment with strikes, to deliver killing blow with dagger or simply damage the limb on the way down.

I don't think you are approaching this the way you should. Serious combat systems which use standing armlocks NEVER limit the technique just to the armlock, it's a process through which you achieve a dominant position (usually delivering one or more strikes), and it's common that the surprise factor is assumed (in a grappling match the opponent is EXPECTING you to grapple him). Nevertheless, obviously a ground armlock is much more reliable. Thing is that standing grappling techniques usually aim to the floor as the ultimate objective. Standing control positions are clearly unstable. The fighter who uses them knows this, and does not try to retain the opponent indefinitely within them, but to execute a joint attack, strike the helpless opponent, or transition to a floor position better suited for controls. As far as I understand, the idea is (a very common idea in martial arts) not to use the armlock as a standalone but within a combination of moves.

Well intended and generally I find the tutorials interesting. This one identifies some common issues for beginners but they're not impediments for those more fully immersed. How many "classical jiujutsu"

I agree with much of your analysis but these types of locks become significantly easier to apply after a strike. You can't strike in a grappling tournament and it doesn't make that much sense in MMA. However, to arrest, detain, or escort someone out they tend to work pretty well.

If you do it the way you showed then yeah it won't work. Re-learn your basics...

Thanks for the explanation. What about the Kimura submission, though? Does it actually work while standing? It seemed to work when I was training...

very good video

Shinya Aoki vs. Keith Wisniewski

That guy you’re doing the moves on looks so happy all the time

I managed to do a waki gatame in randori once, but my judo sensei at the moment told me slowly slowly! It's a dangerous move to do in randori or sparring in judo or bjj

After this I searched in KZfaq for that steven Segal movie scene and watched it, it was hilarious!! 😂😂

The issue seems with the way it's approched an arm drag can make most standing arm locke word but the thing is you have to break the arm before they find a way out of course so it's difficult to train but the best way is having a good setup done fast and safely

It certainly still seems like you can use a more safely (gradually) applied armlock to set up other techniques - there's a very limited range of motion they can use to escape one. For example, from the waki gatame you showed, as they pivot out you can get underneath them for a fireman's carry. That way you can train these locks somwhat safely in sparring.

Helio Gracie was a big practitioner of standing armlocks in his self defence system

I see very similar techniques in Okinawan karate, which likely suggests karate in actual practice looks more like collar & tie dirty boxing than kickboxing type striking. This would make a lot of karate techniques and form make sense

They do work, you just need to get the shoulder down. Once that happens you can do whatever you want. There are many ways to control the shoulder to facilitate the arm lock....Wake gatame. There are 2 main version of the wake gatame. The classic one which is an actual arm lock and the more Goshin Jutsu form (self-defense) which causes trauma to the elbow and wrist. In order to get the classic version the opponents arm has to be extended out past his center causing the shoulder to drop. Adding a kote mawashi (wrist rotation and lock) helps greatly.

Good points. Another way where it can work, is if the person is distracted (like for instance by a strike) which can buy you time to apply something like that. Cuz that's the trouble on a resisting opponent, applying it, once it's locked in it can be used. I interviewed a pro MMA fighter who has a background in jujutsu (not Brazilian, Japanese) and he said that many standing joint locks came about from samurai fighting with armour and thus being slower and having more time to apply the techniques. He also said that as a bouncer he had managed to use standing joint locks, but only on drunken people. Here's the interview in case anyone's curious :) kzfaq.info/get/bejne/n7yRYLSnnNyWc58.html

They work if the other person let's you "get it on fully" and you keep there hands above their head...if they go one way or another it transission. Either face plant into a back,side Kessagatame, or if they come back up, hit another judo or wrestling move

Arm lock with elbow hit techniques strong

It would be interesting to compare your version display of the technique in question and have a advanced black belt aikido, jujutsu, judo or chin na practitioner demonstrate. There will certainly be a disparity in physicality and structural effect.

sweardagod, phxAZ had a steven segal film festival (early 2000s?), like a public event, not just a theater-thing

Agreed.

Are standing armlocks allowed in judo?

Try dropping your stance right down, and also use the top of your thigh to lock the arm in. Then bend back the arm in their direction.

I love Aikido,arm-locks,wrist-locks,finger-locks,etc.They can be very useful in a pre-fight or just situations where someone may be trying to harrass,bully or tease,or maybe just sort of a pre-fight conflict.You're talking on your cell-phone,local moron grabs it away from you-now what?Feign like you're going to grab your phone back,but go for a wrist-lock or even better a finger-lock.Now if they want to take it to the next level,then we go boxing,Jui-jtsu or whatever.Many times these would be bullies don't really want a fight especially if they think you might could actually defend yourself.Now would I go straight into a fistfight trying this stuff out?No,but even then many times an opening can pop up where you could maybe briefly lock up your opponent.I do agree actually MMA style jui-jitsu is much better suited for a street fight scenario.

That kind of armbar I "think" is originally from traditional JJJ (where I learned it) and is a defense against a small-ish blade. The attack is from a blade thrust, then into an armbar like you show, but finish of the technique is to drive the person to the ground with the weight of your body while controlling the weapon hand, keeping it away and in front of you. The standing armbar when there is no weapon (from a lapel grab) is done differently in JJJ (again, as I was taught). You face towards the person, locking the empty attacking hand behind your bicep, and you control the opponents body through the shoulder. This is how they do it in Aikido and other arts. Here's a good demo: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qrmZedOX3arLlZs.htmlm36s In CMA, the standing armbar isn't a submission technique, it's a transition technique, and that snapping you describe is part of it. Believe it or not, it's kind of a natural thing to do in Taiji push hands practice and you learn to feel it coming and defend against naturally.

true, buy try with aikido´s sihonage

Is it ibjjf legal tho?

I don't really like your title. Standing armlocks DO work, simply not the way most people think they work. First of all, I'd like to point out that you can actually make a standing arm lock work as a lock. But for that you need to use strikes. Simply trying to take his arm and bend it won't work because if the opponent simply uses his muscle power to slow down your lock you'll never have the time to apply it. But if you have control of his arm, then strike him in the ribs/face/whatever and immediately use the technique, you can pull it off (although it definitely isn't a 100% move). Secondly, arm locks are useful even if they don't make the opponent tap out because they give you opportunity. If your arm lock works half way, you still inflicted some pain and broke the structure of the enemy, giving you time and targets to hit. Arm wrenches serve the same purpose (although they hurt more but don't break the structure as much.) Finally, I think you misunderstand something about arm locks because of your BJJ background (and also because of the way they are taught today). In most traditional systems, arm locks aren't arm locks (because of the flaws you pointed out), they're arm breaks. The goal is not to slowly apply pressure until the opponent surrenders. If you get control of a limb, you simply break by wrenching the arm really fast. So in summary, arm locks are misunderstood. Most of the time they don't serve as finishers to make the guy tap out or surrender. They are used to hurt, break, give opportunities. And also, they can work when used to control if you use strikes to distract (although I agree it is quite hard to pull off).

I've hit standing arm locks. The stronger your opponent is, the harder they are, but this is true on the ground too. Certainly, with a much stronger opponent they are very hard to do. But I think the issue here is that if you want to be able to do them you have to make an effort to incorporate them into your sparring. No different to any other techniques in that sense.

I am gonna use this on my friend

Great

He said that it's easy to control on the ground in competition, rather than standing.. when standing you'll break the elbow.

The lack of momentum is called inertia

Kimuras are working pretty well standing :D

I have doubts about those techniques but also doubts about your video. You are suppose to make it in an explosive way and also pivot your position, plus usually this moves apply after the rival punched and you effectively parried. Still, I agree it's maybe too hard to pull off because I have trouble trying this one on sparring, but I am not sure if it is because I didn't practiced enough.

Usually a strike or slap butter him up first otherwise they lock it up right

What about standing armlocks against a wall?

A grab rather than a punch means either they're not 100% committed to damaging you OR they're pulling you on to a punch/knife. In the former, you are just getting them off you, doesn't matter if it 'works'. It's a de-esculation technique, without hurting them. If it's something you feel is more serious (you tend not to see knives, so just have to decide) it's a transition to a pin on the ground, but NOT an armbar. Seriously, as a man, you're likely to be attacked by more than one person, and going to the ground is just asking for a head kick. Crazy how self defense seems to be loving BJJ. Anyway, DO NOT do arm lock where you stand in front of person (as here) as you're likely to be thrown. Locking elbow, you have shoulder control (although briefly).

So when does he show the real sthuff

Learn Nikkyo its an Aikido technique that works when the standing armbar doesnt work and when your opponent pulls his arm back. I know I've heard that Aikido doesnt work but i dont know check it out

The only other way to make this work consistently is to practice it with very gradually increasing intensity against a partner who is gradually increasing his resistance. At some point, after a long time (months, years) of consistently training it, you can control a large majority of opponents without just destroying their arm. This of course, makes it easier to just destroy their arm when context demands and if you're training smart, it also give you some ideas on how to follow up and counter, when the technique fails.

No standing Americana? I used it twice.

You gotta bring em closer to the ground. They work

Standing armlocks work. You just need to know how to apply them...

Could rename the video "...BJJ guy almost rediscovers aikido..."

Actually, the very standing armbar you are showing at the start is usually used in judo to bring your opponent to the ground and get a submission there without tearing down so many arms... :) You have nice examples on the "Komlock" channel (ne-waza expert judoka) if you click on videos and then scroll until a 3 years back video entitled " - judo ude gatame - " (with some Japanese characters before in the title). A similar armbar (waki gatame) can be finished in a standing position by putting your thigh in front of your opponent head (standing slightly in front and parallel with him/her). Your thigh then just acts as the ground does in any ne-waza armbar, the opponent cannot go further down and is able to tap when you apply the pressure on the elbow. With another one (ude garami with arm on the back - kind of a "police" armlock) it is up to your opponent whether he/she wants to still have two arms at the end of the day or not. In that case, it's mostly opponent's resistance that may lead to an injury.

Also there's another video on youtube with jujitsu teachers claiming standing arm bars don't work because they are not used in MMA, but the other jujitsu teacher reminds him that someone broke someones arm using it in a MMA match and the other guy said oh then it does work then, we were wrong. Shinya Aoki Vs Keith Wisniewski kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rs15qLOhurqYlqs.html Sakuraba vs Renzo Gracie kzfaq.info/get/bejne/nctjZ8ukkpq0e58.html

Because you didn't have proper mai'ai (distancing) and didn't get his balance, first you have to get his balance, then the armlock will work if you have proper mai'ai (distancing)... difference between "grappling" and aiki... aiki you get their balance first with proper mai'ai... on the ground it's easier because you can just force it if he's dumb enough to let you get close enough to take him to the ground... with proper mai'ai the attacker is forced to commit to the attack or else he just can't reach you or harm you... in aiki as you know you would first establish a strong hamni (stance) then establish proper mai'ai (distancing), then strike first, then take the balance then do the arm lock and it would work if all those things are done, but if you don't do them all then it won't work...

Just read my first message It should read step the left leg back deeply. If you have the right arm locked . And the right if you have the left locked. Sorry I was doing two things at once . A lot of modern jujitsu misunderstand arm locks, wristlocks . The arm or wrist is not what is being locked .. it is just the point of contact. The lock should control the whole body .. this technique does that .

Standing breaks and manipulations only work if they are applied while the person is off balance either from a percussive strike, shifting weight, or mental distraction. They should never be practiced as a main technique always a follow up or an option, though, you might ask police officers or bouncers if these techniques hardly ever work.

This video was more a "how to make standing armlocks work" rather than "why they hardly ever work".

His body position is wrong it will never work like that . Everyone watching grab a training buddy do this armlock and step the right leg back deeply. Then tell me it doesn't work . Be careful this correct way of doing the technique makes it very easy to break the elbow. I have used it lots of times . For real in my work luckily only once did it do permanent damage.

What about hara Gatame and or mune gatame why are you not rotating the wrist? Under the armpit is bad form for an effective Lock. Why not show reverse lock on the outside with transitions into Kani bazami. Or elbow reap locking on the shoulder .. standing arm locks do work and can be applied even in a clinch fight. It’s not a go to move as self defense but it’s been canon in judo and jiu jitsu for a long time. Why is it that these techniques are shown as submission techniques and not as control steps into better positions and or throws takedowns ? There is a whole other side to this short clip that could easily fill a 2 hour seminar.

You can use the last arm bar as a defense against a rnc... My daughter uses it as such. I tell her to go slow

Standing armlock is easy to counter. Just standing in front of the attacker and face them

The Kimura is kind of working standing.

Thats why cops,marines and bouncers all rely and practice these techniques regularly.

OK, I was taught at an early age Chin Na/Kum Na, that - every lock is a break. The only reason you lock and submit a partner was in training, where you don't wish to hurt your partner...and you both wish to be able to train again tomorrow. Therefore the force would be applied with speed...and through the direction of the break. Just like on the ground, the persons structure must be broken and controlled also, which this guy didn't appear to demonstrate at all. Basically speaking, there are six directions of motion/movement...the ground, can take away one of those directions (down) so it is often easier to apply a lock/break,submission on the ground...Only sayin'.

Very true! Great video!

Mike Tyson and John Jones use a standing arm lock to damage their opponents a lot! Tyson did it in the fight against Francois Botha, and John Jones did it in the fight against Glover texira

Crazy amount of damage you can do in a street fight

I practice karate, practiced hapkido and I reconice that, as a different from jiu jitsu, they don´t have a lot of effective armocks

VERY insightful! Thanks from Texas.

Not a big deal to succeed in an arm lock while standing. Control the hand, tip your body weight to the side you take the hand too, apply massive pressure, break the arm, do it fast so he can't counter good enough, even if he tries. And those are the five steps, to a good standing arm lock. And dear Stephen, I trained Vale Tudo as my 1st art, very close to BJJ, so I get the idea. But what do you do, when you have an opponent, who doesn't give you a chance to take him to the ground? Can you adjust to the situation of fighting while standing? Or are you too much in love with BJJ, not mind flexible? Because it seems, you are not too comfortable, with fighting not on the floor.

I won my World Master Bronze medal in Judo with the pressing armlock .

Standing armlocks work just fine, but they are not control techniques, they are joint destructions that need to be applied ballistically for them to work - the same is true of just about every joint lock in Japanese Ju-Jitsu and Aikido. The trick is training them safely while mentally preparing to wreck people.

The standing Kimura will work better!!

You're not including standing Kimura Right? Because those are probably the most effective way of controlling someone

Stephen with due respect... I follow you quite a lot and I loved your stuff..but I think you are approaching this armlocks wrong. When taught properly, their is certain ways you apply these techniques, example proper posture, using tai-sabaki movements, the setups etc. When taught properly you can break, submit or throw with the arm locks

I agree the way some people teach it and the way a lot of martial artists would try to apply it might not work on a skilled attacker. However if you are well rounded and understand the different ranges of combatAND train realistically then it can definitely work. Check out Shinya Aoki applying it here. Always like your content and have learnt a lot from your videos! Much appreciated as always! kzfaq.info/get/bejne/e5umh8yYqtWmnp8.html

SIR HOW THIS ARMBAR WOULD WORK IF THE ASSAILANT IS ARMED WITH KNIFE THANK YOU SIR

TRADITIONAL KARATE!!!!

C est ça tous va bien super le travail au corps et la d un coup le Leck il te sort un couteau de sa poche avec sa main libre et tu regrette l idée d avoir fait de la self

No arm locks in old japanese....standing should = breaking. Only a lock in training to not hurt training partner.....to my understanding under the art I study. Also, your standing footwork was not condusive to show a good technique. Like If I showed a crapy ground arm-bar and THEN showed "Why it would never work" I'd also be right. P.S. I like a lot of your other videos :)

You have to understand the principles of arm locks. Yes it takes a lot of practice, but you dont understand the technique. Especially if you first step into him to control the arm.

But in real life, I don't have the luxury to use ground techniques (for a long time, at least).

Hail aikifo

This would be more convincing if you actually knew how to apply a standing armbar. Your application showed critical, fundamental mistakes, like not pinning the hand to your chest, not locking the wrist, and using your armpit to apply the lock rather than your elbow. And I suspect you have no clue about direction of pressure, which is necessary to keep the opponent from bending his arm. Lastly, if he does indeed bend his arm and get out of the armbar, that's an anticipated contingency. We train for that and we're prepared to flow instantly into another lock, or into strikes. If I were to do a video showing why some BJJ technique does not work, while my application of the technique was poor and unstudied, I would be widely ridiculed, and rightly so.

finally somebody answered this question exactly the way it's supposed to be answered this is the way you do these techniques correctly

these are techniques used in real time by the Samurai..the current generation is one that does not respect knowledge in its proper context....why Stephan,why..

Heh, standing armlocks don't work now? My years in hotel security and as a bouncer at a rather "lively" pub certainly tells me otherwise.

Try to learn some gracie jiu jitsu Its seems that you are a little bit confused

I'm surprisingly impressed, he made some very valid points. I think it should be mentioned how the Waki Gatame/Fujiwara Armbar/Armpit Amrbar/ whatever you call it is illegal in MMA and I understand Ju Jitsu AND Judo for exactly the reasons he mentions.

True, they don't work in BJJ competitions. Kata shows the lock as the end of the technique. They omit the follow up grab your blade and stabbing them. Old school jujutsu. It isn't shown because it's expected that you, the student, would understand this. Samurai carried blades as they were the most common told of their trade.

Still waiting for the explanation

Ridiculous statement. They work if you apply them correctly, arm locks are generally done in addition to a strike. One of the arm locks you "demonstrated" would/could have had a collarbone break just before you apply.

Lot of panting going on for very little movement there fella ;)

Stephan with respect before you analize this you need to learn with a good teacher and in a true system how to apply correctly the locks standing before you analize them thank you

Why u acting like we standing robots where did u get your facts from bro.. both standing and on the ground your elbow locks are just deadly.

Shinya aoki broke some ones arm with that standing arm.lock in pride or dream fc

Standing Armlocks DOES WORK. If you don't know stand up PLEASE STICK TO BJJ.

If you want to see standing armlocks used in real fights you have to watch shoot boxing