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Why does female empowerment mean taking on typical masculine traits? Why can't we highlight typical femine traits as empowering?

Honestly, a movie about one or many female superheroes doesn't have to be about feminism. Like, yes it can be but is not needed, i think the feminism comes more naturally if you portray a compelling female character. In fact you can find well founded feminism on movies about male superheroes , ex: from my pov, sadly the most feminist mcu movie is not one directed or starring a woman but it´s black panther that introduced three female characters with diferent and defined personalities and agency,the three have diferent ways to serve their country and i think that makes it strong

Y’all missed out on including the women of Black Panther. None of them have superpowers yet are incredibly great and inspiring characters in different ways; Okoye the warrior general, Shuri the genius inventor, and Nakia the compassionate activist that inspires T’Challa to open borders and protect people around the world, not just in Wakanda.

I think the first Wonder Woman movie is one of only a few movies with a female lead that doesn't revolve around personal trauma. She just wanted to help. It was a nice change of pace.

To me, Moana and Mulan are the perfect heroes. They overcome their obstacles with their wit and strength of character

The most empowering thing they could do is make female superheroes seem normal, rather than constantly telling us that they're women, and that they can be powerful because they're women. It's so forced and feels like they're spoon feeding the audience, but in my opinion, it doesn't attract people more to them, because they become less like characters, and more like tropes. Why can't they be more like someone like Buffy?

I also wish female characters did not have to be physically strong or “as tough as the men” to be great and strong characters. It’s still equating female strength to male validation.

i just wish that female superhero were different from EACHOTHER personality wise. the same way superman and ant-man have very different personalities. but the ladies’ personalities blend into one another, with the exclusion of captain marvel perhaps

Very much giving white feminism. black panther is a great example of feminism. The female characters were strong and had their own personalities and doesn’t need to talk about it but they are just it.

The fact that male lead superhero movies are just entertainment but for some reason female lead superhero movies are supposed to be "feminist" is what annoys me. If it just be a movie about a character and her story rather than an empowerment story it'd be more enjoyable. What I'm trying to say is "Message is louder and genuine when it isn't shoved down your throat."

Tbh I don't want my female superhero movies to be "empowering" or feminist. I just want them to interesting and powerful and tell a story well.

To be honest, I think Jessica Jones is the best example of fighting the suppression of all superheroes. (and it doesn't scream 'military propaganda' to your face)

Yeah I absolutely hate this trend of "woman have to go through trauma in order to be powerful", in that regard, I applaud the Wonder Woman movie a lot because Diana already is strong. She may not be worldly and savy in the ways of human interaction but her inherent pureness makes her resilient. The worst instance of "women going through trauma makes them stronger" was in GoT S8 where Sansa was like "yeah I was glad that Ramsey raped me, that Joffrey killed my dad in front of me and abused me for my entire stay at King's Landing". Even tho that was not the intention of the writers, it makes it come across like physical and mental abuse is something that is absolutely required to become strong as a woman.

God, I *LOVED* the way they spoke on this in the second season of The Boys. It was a fabulous satire on the performative feminism that's forced on these characters for corporate interests.

I disagree with Diana already being in control of her powers. She never knew she had them. She worked hard and practiced to be a better fighter. It was not until she feared being harmed in a fight that her powers came into play. She had to learn how to control them as time went on.

I'm gonna keep saying it until someone listens: Natasha thinks she's a monster because of the "red in her ledger" - NOT because of her hysterectomy. She only tells Bruce about having had one so that he knows a relationship with her won't spawn a generation of Hulk-like monsters. Great video otherwise.

Steve isn’t really Diana’s guide as she isn’t presented like much of a fish out of water or born sexy yesterday. Despite him trying to tell her how things work and what she and they can’t do, Diana does it anyways. And he quickly gets that he shouldn’t be telling her what she can’t do and believes in her. She mostly surrounded by men when she leaves the island as a contrast to what she is used to in themyscra, where women are involved in matters of war and politics and aren’t excluded. There’s meant to be a difference. Diana’s interaction with the men in her group is also important, how she interacts with them and how they interact with her shows a sign of mutual respect. Not simply in her fighting skills and what each of them brings in combat, but in who they are as people. One of the men isn’t able to shoot at all and when he suggests that he should leave because he is of no use to them, Diana points out that if he’s gone then no one will be there to sing for them. She doesn’t see the value in him as a fighter, but as a person who make people smile with his voice. Steve also isn’t the focus of the sequel. Diana is the focus of the movie, Steve coming back acts as her getting the time she never got to have with him and her learning to let go of what she wants most for the betterment of the world. That’s why the movie is set in the 80’s, a time of greed and selfishness. Maxwell Lord grants people exactly what they want, and the world is being torn apart by it. Through the lasso and Lord Diana is able to connect with humanity and show them what their greed and selfishness is doing to them and the world. She shows them the truth and calls on humanity to be selfless. Wonder Woman and the sequel present great stories of love, compassion and equality. They may not be perfect but they’re not as flawed as some might think.

Isn't it odd that all three characters come from some sort of school that trains women to become killers (Starforce (and Air Force!), Red Room, Themyscira), and all three end up part of a team of killers (Avengers, Justice League)? Not sure what it means, but surely it's significant.

A discussion about how the media presents feminism is always welcome.

I love how in Wonder Woman, they highlighted traits about her that aren't considered typically powerful. She is there with emotion the whole time, she has a strong desire to help the individual and not only the over all cause. I think her emotion in the movie is portrayed as a strength, because that is ultimately what motivates her to safe the world. I also think the way they use duty is very interesting. She has a sense of duty that is different than her male counterparts. She has duty as a focus to a point that it is almost a flaw. I feel like she is very complex and I love seeing that it wasn't about being a woman and oppressed, but just being a woman. We see so much character growth because of that

The sole reason why wonder woman is a strong contender out of all the superheroine movies is that men are not portrayed negatively. In fact, they fight side by side.

The women of Wakanda are badass without taking the spotlight of the men because they're trained special forces. They don't need lasers or flowing caps. They just need a badass personality; Nakia was passionate about protecting her country, Shuri was the brains, Okoye was the muscle and Ramonda was the heart. The same goes for the Amazon warriors in Wonder Woman. As for superheroine led films, I can only take Black Widow and Wonder Woman because I love those characters. Patty Jenkins even said: "What makes Wonder Woman such an good character is she has a good heart but that doesn't take away from the powers she has." In translation: just because you got powers, that doesn't make any higher than men. What matters is that you got heart in whatever purpose you fight for.

Disney is missing the mark with its new wave of female lead/driven, myopic feminist films. I can understand that women can have an arc, where they can face obstacles due to being a woman or facing life hardships. However, it seems they are missing the mark because quite a bit of their female protagonist have a certain "special" skills, ability or power, that makes them rise above other women. For instance, Elsa in Frozen has her mystical powers, the re-imagining of Mulan has her have the power of "chi" instead of the original Mulan having the determination and intellect to outwit the army (until they realize she is a woman) and eventually beat the Huns in her true female form. If Disney wants to hit the nail on the head about conveying a movie that has feminist ideals in it they need to focus on ordinary women who are able to rise above an obstacle by using both female and male traits that aren't stereotypical. Once again I will reference 1998's Mulan: Mulan was smart, assertive and outspoken, all characteristically masculine traits. Yet, she failed miserably attempting to adhere to the gendered specific trait of femininity that was imposed on her by society. However, she adopts the Ying and Yang that many women carry in them about embracing both female and masculine traits. Towards the end of the movie, the audience is able to enjoy her full evolution of not only embracing her authentic self but doing so in a way that is truly feminine: fighting the Huns as a woman with her male, army comrades joining her. On a side note, I think Wonder Woman is the better movie out of the triad of films The Take decided to decipher today.

I wish you would have talked about the military propaganda in these these movies, especially Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel, and how they use feminism as cover for that.

Feminism on screen is more beautifully done by showing and not telling. I think that’s why Captain Marvel “flopped” because it was a bit too on the nose. I could be wrong though.

I'm all for feminism and female empowerment in films. I just wish these movies did not feel like they were constantly trying to pander. Marvel movies especially feel very on the nose. I want to watch a well written movie where women feel like real people with agency. It shouldn't come across as "see, we are feminist. Look at all the feminist things we are doing. "

I like "Wonder Woman" (2017) and "Birds Of Prey" (2020), but give me a variety of lady superheroes from different backgrounds and such. Give me well written movies about Ororo Munroe/Storm, Wave, Misty Knight, Silk, Vixen, Bumble Bee, Artemis Crock, and Raquel Ervin.

I wish we could have a movie with a female lead whose character isn't just about being a female in a man's world, taking down patriachy or having little feminine traits. I wish it could be about a person who takes on normal adventures and normal activities while also being feminine and embracing who she is.

I love how enthralling the discussion always is with the take, I’m hardly even a movie person and I’m always like, “hmmm I am engrossed in this niche topic that I previously would have never thought about” haha 🧐

You left out one of the most problematic issues with Wonder Women 1984. Steve was inhabiting the body of another man without his consent. Diana had sex with this body (with Steve’s consciousness) which could be viewed as rape. Why did ya’ll leave this out?! You frame it as if the worse thing about this movie is that WW is still revolving around a man and he shapes her actions and emotions.

I feel the boys is the most nuanced approach to modern feminism in relation to the big superhero shows/movies. Though yes BW and WW take on a lot of issues, they feel somewhat sidelined to the main plot or just not giving them depth that they deserve. Though the video talks about the themes in depth big time, the way they're portrayed on screen feels so 1 note. Its like comparing the girls superhero scene in infinity war + endgame to the "girls get it done" scene in the boys.

The MCU is not known for addressing systemic social issues in a nuanced way. Because the kind of movies made by the MCU are, by nature, not nuanced. They are in-your-face, dramatic, spectacle-driven and action-oriented with the aim being to make a shitload of money by encouraging the audience to live vicariously through a superhumanly strong character that always wins. We go to these movies to be entertained. So the MCU's attempts at addressing feminism can come across as a little vapid because in between the fight scenes, CGI battles and funny moments they do not have much time to construct a meaningful meditation on female empowerment that is thought-provoking, compelling and deep. That being said, the MCU's journey into addressing racism, sexism and class is not necessarily about the depth or quality of the storytelling but rather about REPRESENTATION. We shouldn't expect big-budget blockbuster CGI extravaganzas to create complex portrayals of social issues but their popularity and extreme influence mean that making movies (however vapid) that employ women and poc and place them in significant roles is a good thing nonetheless. How many little girls back in 2012 were disappointed when Avengers merchandise lacked any mention of Black Widow? Now the little girls of today have a whole movie that places her front-and-centre (granted, Marvel shouldn't pat themselves on the back for making TWO WHOLE MOVIES featuring women as protagonists.) Likewise, how many black children looked at posters of Avengers: Age of Ultron and saw no one that looked like them, essentially being told that they are not interesting or important enough to be featured in these insanely popular movies. Now they have Black Panther (which featured three very different, strong woc) AND Asian youngsters can look forward to Shang-Chi. Marvel movies are not cinematic, artistic prestige but if they make movies (that may well be admittedly quite shallow takes on social issues) that are successful AND feature women or poc in the leads then that gives them, and indeed other moviemakers, more license and permission (since Hollywood bigwigs can see that movies about women/poc can make money after all) to create more nuanced, complex, BETTER takes on how women, people of colour etc. exist in the world today.

Movies that try to shove down “Female empowerment” to my throat really doesn’t inspire any in me.

I'm still salty about how they turned Wonder Woman, empowering Super Heroine, into someone who hasn't gotten over the death of a guy she briefly knew 70 years ago, and a sexual assaulter!

Black Widow movie was weird to me. There were some parts I really enjoyed, however, I don’t like that it was set before she died when all the TV shows Marvel is currently putting out are post infinity war.

You Know what was female empowerment? Alien. Ridley was smart, not in a “nerdy” way but more strategic, logic way. If they had listened to her they wouldn’t die.

I thought Hidden Figures was a much more empowering feminist film.

I would like your take on the boys series overall as well as the media exploitation of feminism decipted by the boys with that 'girls get it done' saga

I feel like one of the main roots of the problem I have is this- why does every female character have to be this supreme role model? Like how do we even define that because it’s becoming an increasingly grey area. Don’t get me wrong - I love me some Wonder Woman I thinks it’s just as important to have characters like this but there is nothing wrong with having female characters who are messy. And I feel like a lot mainstream movies are holding back punches with this. Don’t get me wrong I still enjoy these stories like Captain Marvel and such- but I feel like I have connected with characters like Harley Quinn because her status as a more of an anti-heroine allows for more exploration of stuff I’ve been through. Everyone has different definitions of what an empowered woman is- none should be held up as the more correct route. We just need more representation of different kinds of women.

Villain: "You'll never stop me" Hero: "Why? Because I'm a girl?!"

I think people don't know how lucky they have it now to have these good super heroine movies, especially since even when Superhero movies began many studios were afraid to have a female superhero based on the results of some low quality crappy movies from the 80's and 90's. Hell, a good look at how much things have improved is to go back and see the old Bravo tv special "Ultimate Super Vixens" where it was a 2000's pop culture list of the "best female superheroes".. where the top ten where female sidekicks to Austin Powers, the Bond Girls and how hot the heroine looked in a outfit like Pamela Anderson in Barbwire, Lara Croft and Catwoman (Specifically Halle Berry). People might accuse studios of "pandering" or having "Mary Sue" leads but it still an improvement over the old days of just having a Hot actress in a tight bodysuit or being the Hero's girlfriend and just being fan service and simply that being enough to be a "Strong female character".

when a character have a personality like Kim possible from the animated series and Alita battle angel, they have a personality beyond being empowered females and their lives doesn't goes around their gender it tend to be more like between general audience, but their its other cases like men in black international or charlies angels reboot where the protagonist personality its just being an empowered woman, and that its just not good for telling a story

I really enjoyed Wonder Woman’s and Black Widow’s on-screen appearances- in fact pretty much every DC or MCU female character, superheroine or not. But, I feel like Captain Marvel is just different vibes that I can’t get into.

As others pointed out some traits are associated masculine or feminine so a lot of women heroes have to take on very masculine signifiers to appear tougher. They have to sacrifice their womanhood or actively weaponize it to be on an even level. Not just them, I want male heroes with traditionally feminine traits and strengths without them being coded as a closetted homosexual or comedically incompetent.

Who else think they should start talking about desperate housewives ?

I wish one that would count is Agent Carter although the mcu hasn’t given her much in the show she uses her femininity as well as fighting ability and wits to win and thrive in situations

I was with you until you bashed Diana learning from Steve simply because he is a man. That is sexist. He wasn't teaching her about man's world. He was showing her the real world that he was brought up in. He is a victim of circumstance just as much as she. I find you demeaning him for being male to be sexist honestly. What's wrong with fighting alongside and learning from someone of another race, gender, creed, religion, etc?

Captain Marvel was exactly the kind of shallow version of this The Boys was making fun of. I'm glad you brought that up. But weirdly, I think Birds of Prey deserves to be in this conversation, too. I think all these movies operate as if they have a chip on their shoulder when it comes to feminism, and it's been to the detriment of some of the storytelling of each film. James Cameron, who has given us more empowering heroines than any these, was right to call out how Wonder Woman functioned, and Black Widow, in the name of empowerment totally skirts accountability for the crimes its main characters helped enable. Basically these are movies that want to have their cake and eat it too, and it handicaps would could probably be tighter scripts. It would be interesting, probably even freeing, to watch a female superhero movie that wasn't concerned with gender politics, and just wanted to be a good superhero movie.

I actually enjoyed Captain Marvel, and I didn't think it was that on-the-nose. It reminded me of a lot of other stories where the protagonist has to 'discover' themselves etc.

Honestly, the idea that female empowerment is related to emotion or empathy (as you mentioned is the case with Captain Marvel), thereby clashing with strictly logic-oriented notions of structure and power imposed by men, on the basis of harmony and emotional intelligence being traditionally more feminine traits, is sexist in and of itself. There is a book called Sexual Personae, in which the main idea was that Western society is sexist, because it is structured on logic (Apollonian, thereby masculine trait), rather than on emotion and instict (chthonic, thereby feminine trait). The book was widely considered anti-feminist, due to making the assumption (through the portrayal of female sexuality in literature - no reliable research involved) that women are naturally inclined to the chthonic (instinct, emotion, passion), whereas men are naturally inclined to the apollonian (logic, clarity, progress). We should not forget that those associations are in essence assumptions, in the sense that they are the product of an establishment that was actively working towards the exclusion of women from social and political life, on the basis of their being unintelligent or overly emotional. A female character achieving empowerment through logic and reason is not a female character empowered on sexist terms (in a masculine, power-to way), but quite possibly, a much more feminist character than the one empowered through "traditional" femininity, purely because "traditional" femininity is a cultural construction that has no real basis. That said, any truly feminist (or truly anti-racist, or truly anti-homophobic etc) project is always more radical and effective when pondering and acting on "power-with" empowerment.

5:50 Better skip this part if you don't want Black Widow spoilers. 😐😐

The series "The Boys" is amazing. ♥️👏

Idk, man. I’m just tired of this “female lead films to empower.” We don’t say that for male lead films. People are empowered by different things, they don’t need to empower everyone. Just not be sexist. That’s it.

When I first saw The Matrix and it opens with Trinity kicking ass with that iconic jump kick, I never once thought to myself throughout all three films, "Wow what a strong, empowering female character!". I just thought Carrie Anne Moss's character was badass. And I thought her character in general was great. I was 13 at the end of that trilogy. I think it's perfectly fine for film/tv to explore feminism and suppression but many stories tend to beat you over the head with it instead of allowing these characters to be great on their own merit and earn the audience's admiration. There are so many great films/tv shows that tell awesome stories for women. The best ones however don't make "Empowering female character" as the hollow tagline or theme.

Wonderwoman's romantic arc cripples her. I said it. Watch the animated version, is sooooooooooooooooooo much better.

"To be fair, it's not the job of movies to teach us about social or political theories" something a lot of people seem to forget lately. Not everything needs to be realistic, not everything needs to be political, not everything needs to be "woke". Remember when media used to be about how things could be, or how weird situations can be interesting? Cause I do and I miss it EVERY SINGLE DAY. Why media would NEED to be serious all the time? Reality is already serious ans unescapable enough. You want realism and politics? Well what about just living a life? Reality is ALWAYS all around us, you can't really escape from it. Just give me a break...

I love how many people thought about good feminist representation in action movies/series and immediately wrote *The Boys* in the comments. 🥰

Wonder Woman was excellent. Captain Marvel fell flat. Black Widow was okay.

Repeat after me: not every movie with a female character has to be about feminism. Imagine if after a male character has an emotional breakdown because someone died, there was a scene right after with a bunch of women sitting together talking about how amazing it is that he is so in touch with his feelings. Or maybe if they followed it up with a funeral only to show every man in the room crying. It would be so distracting! Just let Chris Pines have an interesting character. Don’t be disappointed that they don’t make him a boy toy she drags around with zero personality. Part of what makes the Widows good weapons is that men don’t suspect that these woman could kick their ass. Sensuality isn’t a weapon we need to demonize. Natasha Romanov didn’t need to be sexy while fighting aliens, but she did need to be sexy when she was undercover as the new secretary of one of the world’s most notorious playboys. Are we forgetting that until Tony and Pepper got together, he didn’t have the most respectful view of women? Just let them be interesting characters without having to add feminism into the mix.

We need more female centered movies that don’t sacrifice character growth/ character arcs. I’m so tired of these female super heroes that are “amazing” and “strong” and have always been this way. Discovering ones self or deciding to not hold yourself back anymore isn’t growth and isn’t relatable. Weak and inexperienced characters becoming strong and also relying on their smarts, is relatable and a movie worth praising. A great example of good character arc in a heroine is the 1998 animated Mulan, an example of a heroine without any arc is the 2020 live action Mulan. I feel we are slipping backwards and not moving forward with true heroism and feminism in movies.

I felt Natasha meant that what she did in the past as an assassin made her a monster, not the infertility. She has to live with killing innocent people whether she was brainwashed or not.

You guys are game-changers and life-changers! 🙏 Thanks to you, I've been watching movies and observing media with an inquiry and a whole new perspective. I've recently seen Anna, which I enjoyed and related to, as other Luc Besson's movies like Lucy or Leon. With a narrative centered around a female protagonist rising from abuse through wit, cold-hearted violence, detachment and desensitization, while of course meeting the physical standards of male fantasy and unwavering mental stability in execution of her plan. I see Anna's character moving more towards reconciling the differences and finding a scenario where everybody wins, yet there's still a lot of blood and dead bodies in the process and the "win-win" situation is only for the ones in power, whereas she merely gets a chance for freedom. I used to find those kinds of movies reassuring and leaving a glow of hope that injustices can be corrected if I'm only strong enough. And now I've come to realize that it's all a fantasy created by male directors to justify what women had to go through and show that "there's a way out", by punishing the oppressor figures and having the strong female character in the film kill off all the "bad guys". I wonder if there are any examples of inspiring healing movies where the journey from abuse and oppression is depicted realistically? Where trauma is seen and acknowledged to the effect it has on the nervous system? Where the narrative shows how a woman can find nurture, heal and stand tall in her power in society rather than becoming conventionally "strong".

But to be fair, it's really difficult to make a movie about collective struggles without at least one individual character to provide a "lens" of sorts. People just tend to emotionally respond more to an individual's struggles and typically have a harder time visualizing and thus relating to a collective. Not to say that it's impossible, but that would explain why most of these movies tend to focus on the effects of these systemic issues on individuals, rather than on the whole

Widows journey and redemption is in Endgame and all about her self sacrifice

The whole "no ovaries makes me a monster" line feels a lot like the banepost line. She's a monster because she's a killer, a trained dog loosed upon the world. But because she also has the "no distractions" line in that spiel, it muddies what she means when she says she's a monster.

Im probably not making any sense here when I say this but is it just me who notices some kind of pattern to how MCU handles the characters comedy wise? I mean just looking at the comedy duo stand point. Ironically, i noticed that a lot of female characters are usually the “straight (wo)man”, which are the more serious and reasonable one (like Gamora, Nebula, Scarlet Witch, Black Widow, the Wasp, etc), while most male characters are the “funny man”, who are more silly, a little sarcastic, and basically the ones that normally cracks a joke (Iron Man, Antman, Spider-man, Star Lord, Thor etc.) Like the only ones i could only think of female characters that kinda has the “funny woman” archetype right now are Shuri, Yelena, Mantis, Maria Hill and Okoye. While for male characters that are leaning more to “straight man” are Captain America, Black Panther, the Vision and Hulk. I dont know about the accuracy of my list (it’s just an opinion after all) saying all this, I dont mean to say that it’s a bad narrative but it is just something I noticed. Dont know how else to explain it but It would be really cool if there would be more change or variety to how these characters act/interact though.

What the media doesn't get is that to show females as empowering, men don't need to be portrayed as vile, similarly to portay men in good light, there is no need to sexualize women. You don't need to bring down one in order to uplift the other one.

A form of female empowerment that's understated is seen in *House Tyrell* in GoT (Lady Olenna and Margaery)... they orchestrate and carry out complex visions with extreme precision, all while wearing dresses and keeping cool. Pretty impressive!

To be fair Wonder Woman 2017 was the only one movie to do it right, Because you can see in that movie men and women working together. Diana didn't feel the need to tear down her male comrades or upstage them in anyway. I feel like with wonderwoman1984 Jenkins fell off the mark.

It's like people still haven't figured out that Strong People aren't strong because they are woman or man - they're strong because.. They Are Strong.

Even though I am a staunch feminist, I usually dislike the explicitly “feminist” movies. I see them as pandering and hollow. Hollywood isn’t any good at understanding actual feminist critical theory, and ends up serving white feminism on a platter. Note that white feminism doesn’t mean that the people are white, but that it takes nothing other than gender into account (like the early white feminists who were white, straight, middle to upper class, abled, etc). But that’s just not how the world works. It’s messy. And I don’t want some simplistic pandering to some silly idea of “female empowerment” that doesn’t actually empower most women. No thank you.

Holy shit, when will people stop watching "Age of Ultron" with their buttholes instead of their eyes, "her infertility is why she thinks she's a monster" is NOT what that line meant. That movie has the best written, most nuanced, brilliant dialogue out of all the MCU with, apparently, one fatal flaw: it required some thinking from the audience, which turned out to be too much to ask.

One point of contention: I do think that at least a small amount of hardship is good for the individual. I'm not condoning anything close to a hysterectomy, but I think that being faced with and surmounting a serious but potentially temporary setback in life is conducive to good personal development. Living a soft comfortable life I think more often leads to many issues. I'd also like to see more actual feminine feminism. Much of this superhero feminism I see as just -- to be blunt -- men with boobs. They demonstrate largely "masculine" traits in order to be superheroes and I think that ultimately hollows the advantages of "feminine" traits. Explosions and physical violence are all just so masculine... I'm not dumping on these action heroines entirely, but the feminine aspects of these films suffer with the action of the genre, leaving little room for the characters to shine. I liked Diana's caring side as well as Natasha and Yelena's relationship. One outside idea I have is Groot, who's lines are entirely expressive and emotionally based and who's greatest act in the films so far was to sacrifice *most of* himself to create a protective shell for the crew. Groot is able to be emotional and protective inside the context of an action film without even dying and I think he's a good example of "feminine" traits in a superhero flick.

There’s a different between wanting females superheroes to be more (traditionally) feminine/masculine and wanting the TERM female empowerment to not be limited to giving female characters more masculine traits Wonder Woman has many traditionally female characteristics including her loving compassion and openly emotional communication style on top of the more feminine way she dresses This femininity on its own doesn’t mean much, but when those traits are part of her character arc and what make her such a dedicated fighter (like going into no mans land for the sake of all the women and children she felt so horribly for), it elevates the definition of “strength” and “empowerment” to not only include the masculine rough aggressive detachedness of many male superheroes (and Black Widow/Captain Marvel to a degree), but also kindness and compassion and emotional brevity. Wonder Woman shows us that BEING feminine is just as empowering as being masculine

This page is just mind boggling. I love the videos but I also love how the comment section is just filled with intellectual discussions and like minded people who are here to analyze and know things. It wouldn't be wrong to call this page as one of my favourites.

I felt empowered by Wonder Woman but Captain Marvel was lame and too on the nose. Black Widow was alright. Mulan 1998 empowers me more than all of the above. Mulan 2020 SUCKS.

Black Widow made me feel nothing. Birds of Prey made me feel everything

I'm not gonna lie. I hate this trope. 😂It's always so one-dimensional and... Disney. I don't know. I just want a little more reality in my "feminist" media. It doesn't have to be feminist at all, tbh, as long as it's fun. So much of it is just cliché, cheesy, and boring. That's just what I notice about this trend. It needs more creativity and different perspectives on womanhood. Lately, these feminist superhero movies just seem like they were written in the 90's.

Interesting video and lots to discuss, but one point that is lost on me is the trauma point. Basically all superheroes (male or female) have been through trauma prior to becoming stronger. At the minimum, all heroes had to struggle and work hard to become stronger.

I assume that y’all chose to just stick to films, but I would’ve loved to see a bit of this perspective on Scarlet Witch in WandaVision too

Great video. One difference of opinion I'd have is that I don't view society's take on women as disposable. Objects: certainly. But males are definitely viewed as the more disposable sex historically. Men are expected to do the dangerous jobs to keep societies going and get sent to the meat grinder of war before they can even have an adulthood. Just a little, but important nitpick, because the topic of male disposability is a bit and important one.

I actually really enjoyed Captain Marvel. I liked how she was portrayed as caring as well as strong. And I love her friendship with fury.

They may not be feminist but when I was talking to my friend about Wonder Woman she talked about how cool it was to see a superhero who did all that the male superheroes did and did well in the box office. It was like, "Yay, we can be superheroes too". I don't really want perfect female superheroes, I just would love to see movies about characters like Black Canary, Huntress, Super Girl etc done well and with good writing so that we can enjoy them the same way we enjoy Superman movies. Obviously there ones done already need improvement but I am very glad they exist as there are women who were empowered by them.

16:00 So wait, it's bad that Steve Trevor has a equal amount of dialogue as Wonder Woman? Also, doesn't Diana becomes Steve guide the same way Steve was her guide in the previous film? So why that consider a step forward as opposed to a step backward. If men are meant to be irrelevant in order for there to be a better feminism then I don't think that's feminism that will endure. As for Black Widow, the reason she said she was a monster was because she was an assassin and NOT because she was infertile, that is strawman that has been propagated since the film released. Listen, I think that collective female empowerment is good thing BUT it shouldn't come at the expense of individualism. No woman is pure agent but women are purely a collective either and to think otherwise is disingenuous.

When the script is well written, you can feel empowered without the feminism being pushed down your throat. That’s why Wonder Woman did so good.

Claim : "older female superhero movies like Catwoman and Wonder Woman " Completely ignores : Supergirl (1984 Linda Lee), Tank Girl (1995), Barb Wire (1996 Pamela Anderson), Ultraviolet (2006 Milla Jovovich), Aeonflux (2005 Charlize Theron). Interesting how feminists mostly ignore these movies while many men have watched them.

I see the message and understand it finally. Great video!

The "Power-over, Power-to, Power-with" theory seems more like a theory about personal subjective experiences of power than of power itself, i.e. any real world example could be all three types depending of the POV. White supremacy can feel a lot like "Power-with" is you are a white person with other white people, (but obviously it feels like "Power-over" for POC), and yet The Take seems to suggest that "Power-with" is always a good thing.

fuck i love that we've carved out this little slice of the usually toxic hyper masculine internet and that we can talk about shit like this seriously. So few content creators that are so unapologetically THIS. I don't love every video but I am so thankful for The Take.

As a huge fan of Captain Marvel, it was a good introduction to the character. Carol Danvers is all about self sacrifice. As a huge Wonder Woman fan, the whole character is about showing people the best they can be. She is kind as well as strong and powerful.

How are you able to use footage from these films without getting copyright strikes? (I am planning to do something similar with some videos I hope to make.)

Instead of viewing "You still think you're the only monster on the team?" as a statement of womanhood from Marvel, I'd like to propose we view the line as a recognition of trauma for Natasha. Power women shouldn't be perfect titans fighting the patriarchy, they should be people like us, that end up feeling traumatized and ruined, and fight the patriarchy anyway, because those women exist among us and we know their names.

Not gonna lie, I've seen old slasher horror heroines that felt more relatable and empowering than superheroines. They just feel completely unattainable and one dimensional.

Great video! I did my postgraduate thesis on the Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel films with many of these same points. Love to hear it being taken even further with Black Widow. Thanks ladies :)

Thanks for the video the take!

One thing I've always noticed when it comes to the reception of female lead movies (where the female character goes on a "Heroes Journey" and has agency in her own story) is that movies like Wonder Woman and Rogue One are generally liked by men, but movies like Captain Marvel, Harley Quinn, and the new Star Wars films tend to be hated. I was wondering why and noticed that in Wonder Woman and Rogue One, the female lead was the only female in a lineup of male main characters. But in Harley Quinn and Captain Marvel, the most important relationships are between women. It could be that there's something about action films that center around multiple women interacting and giving each other power that is inherently more threatening.

Please make analytical videos about desperate housewives characters

You should check out the movie "Fast Color" which is a grounded super hero story which the main character is a woman of color. Ofcourse media and Hollywood want to make you forget it exists (with a 81 on rotten tomatoes). Also I think Natasha did a great job holding the avengers together in endgame while Steve and Tony had moved on/given up. She was the real leader at that point which made me even more sad that she died. She was a mother and a leader to them which had nothing to do with her trauma or masc centric martial arts abilities. She took care of her family in face of a global (galactic) trauma.

I know I talk about Young Justice a lot but to me that show does a great job of writing female characters. They are written in a way where they have to improve and change over the course of their arcs. Artemis started out as this archer who had a lot of secrets buried beneath. The biggest secret she had was the truth about her family. So throughout most of the first season, she lies and keeps doing that until she finally had enough courage to tell the truth. Miss Martian was a young adolescent who was eager to please everyone. But she also didn’t understand how people would react to how she used her powers to read minds. So as the series went on, M’gann made a lot of mistakes that she had learn from. She had to learn that the things she does on Mars could be an invasion of privacy and hurt other people’s feelings and her telepathic abilities are very dangerous. After she learned from these mistakes, M’gann was able fit in on earth and live a good life with Superboy. Zatanna had a rebellious yet passionate demeanor. She loved her father but easily got annoyed with his overprotective nature. That’s why when Zatara became the new Doctor Fate, Zatanna blamed herself for what happened. She did something that she felt was her fault and felt the weight of it on her shoulders. All I am trying to share is that young Justice along with the other movies and shows I grew up watching know how to write good characters especially the females.