I know this one is going to super controversial, so please don't go too harsh on me! But let me know below what you think! Come follow me on twitter for KOTOR Sithposting! twitter.com/100PerStarWars

Malak in KotOR: And in the end, as the Darkness takes me, I am nothing. Revan in SWTOR: And in the end, as the Darkness takes me, I am nothing. Now I know how you felt, my friend. Echoes of Oblivion: Vitiate: No... No! Valkorion: The Force is mine! I command it! Tenebrae: I... am... endless! Revan: No. And in the end, as the Darkness takes you, you are nothing!

I feel like SWTOR should’ve waited to introduce Revan when the time was right. There should’ve been buildup and subtlety to his return and but ultimately reintroduced him too soon.

Don’t forget in Onslaught, (Echoes of Oblivion) Revan finally completes his quest of killing Tenebrae with the help of everyone else that was killed through Tenebrae’s manipulation...

I didn't think they ruined Revan my interpretation is somewhat similar to yours but they did ruin the exile aka Meetra Surik

I think one of the biggest things about revan in Swtor is that he realizes that throughout all of these things, he’s tried to shoulder the burden alone. Revan was very much in a way, the embodiment of the Jedi’s self sacrificing ideology after his return to the light. That, and the constant betrayal he suffered from made him take things onto his own shoulders and believing that only he could do it. So in his last moments before he dies, he entrusts the player to be the one to finish what he and so many other had started years ago. The man who didn’t want to trust others entrusted his final mission to another. And I think that’s one of the most beautiful things that’s been done with revan. He realizes that he didn’t have to shoulder everything by himself, and puts faith in others to continue the fight.

You make some really great points, and I totally see where you are coming from, and I also think that you show that thematically what TOR did with Revan does work with his previously established character; but I still hold that TOR (and the Revan novel) does seriously injure the character in a major aspect. Namely, as Kriea said "Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example, it was him. And there is something that the Council will never understand...that perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference more than anyone knew." Now this is just Kriea's point of view, so she could be wrong, but Revan never actually falling to the Dark Side is the subtle motif that traces throughout KOTOR 2, and connects to aspects of the original KOTOR where Carth and other characters admit that Revan was not a butcher, he had a reason for doing everything. But the Revan novel and TOR removed some of the most important aspects of Revan's character, his mind, his will, and the mystery surrounding the character. The developers had to handwave all these things away so they could shoehorn Revan into TOR, because, yeah, why wouldn't you have your most popular character in your MMO. No, Revan's character was not ruined by TOR, but they stripped the character of much of what made him intriguing to instead focus the only aspects of him that could work for TOR. He had to be dominated by Emperor Vitiate, forcibly turned to the Dark Side (twice) because it was the best way for TOR to work narratively, the previous narrative established by KOTOR 1&2 be damned. But that's just my feeling. You do great work, really appreciate it. May the Force be with you!

While I don't think he was "Ruined", I still would've preferred what Obsidian was planning for him in a potential KOTOR 3 to what we actually got. Its not like his current story is bad (Well The Jedi Exile was badly handled) it just could've been executed better.

"The Revan that does NOT give a shiet" A great quote for the ages! This was a great video, Sir! I will say that I don't think they "ruined" him with the MMO, but they could've definitely benefited with a larger time frame or a more stretched out story, since I got the feeling of it being very rushed and over with quickly.

I honestly think the main problem is that Revan’s choices are no longer the players, and it create a dissonance between what the fans would have him do and what he is doing. He quite literally stops being the person you think, your revan, in order for him to move the story.

100% Star Wars: Swtor didn't ruin Revan. Fans: You have forgotten your position, 100% Star Wars, by believing this claim. You have betrayed us

I loved SWTOR growing up. I remember I was confused on what happened to Revan in SWTOR. But I did find it interesting that he was split during the Shadow of Revan. While I didn't agree with when he went to the Foundry, making the Extermination droids to wipe out anyone with Sith blood ancestry. I know he wanted to end to war and destroy the Sith, but he was gonna wipe out not just the guilty Sith, but also innocent people. It would have been the end of the Great Hyperspace War all over again. I did love the Revan novel, but I still hated that he didn't get the happy ending he deserved. I still liked Revan in SWTOR. I found it kind of cool that the dark Revan made us believe the 'fallen hero' trope. I also liked afterwords he finally accepted death and became one with the Force. To be honest, if I went through what he did, I would have gone crazy too.

I'm just sore on how they treated Meetra Surik (and Kreia to some extent). Throwing them under the bus...

Late but I think there are two parts that feel like they hurt Revan's character. First, as I saw other people say, in the 2 Kotor games Revan's choices are always portrayed as his choice. Having the Emperor control him at all hurts it. If it was like he fooled the Emperor than I'd be more ok with it. Second, Revan's whole personality is his intelligence and charisma. I get he's over confident but running off on his own to fight an unknown threat is just so stupid. He won a war through pure cleverness, not charging the enemy. Oh also I think split personality is a cheap plot point to just add to a character like this. It feels like an excuse, not something he has to grapple with.

This is a very daring topic to broach with the community.....and I agree.

I mean.. as a Revan fan I didn't like to see him fail, or see what became of him in the Old Republic... but I think people overdramatize these things. The better story is the one we didn't get, and I've come to terms with it. The OR is still fun to play. Does it ruin Revan? Just as much as you convince yourself it did.

Canonizing Revan's choices and personality in any way was always going to be polarizing. Making Revan one specific way is going to leave everyone who made different choices in KOTOR feel left out. I think the split between light side/dark side Revan was actually a really good way to handle that and represent people who made different choices.

"Hate 'll keep a man alive, Spartacus" I think their need to shoehorn him into SWTOR with contrivance and convenience is where we object... It didn't ruin Revan's character, but rather his story (that he should have had in KOTOR 3)

The only thing I didn't like is how easily he was defeated, twice. Through all of the games and lore he's the most powerful Jedi of his time, possibly the greatest general ever, and able to completely use both sides of The Force. And he gets trounced without inflicting any casualties twice.

It's funny I just did the Shadow of Revan storyline (again) in TOR like two days ago. But this was a nice clear and concise report on everything he went through.

Pretty good to finally hear someone mentioning the importance of Bastila and his child in Revan's "psychic troubles" after KOTOR 1 & the novel. I always feel so sad when people systematically put them aside just like they never existed in Revan's life (especially Bastila). Thank you for that!

I felt the same way after I played it for myself. I hadn't played Swtor until years later because I never had a computer to play it back in the day, and just remembered how much everyone hated what they did. I didn't think it was amazing but it definitely wasn't terrible by any means.

This is a brilliant video and should be an example on how to do a discussion about matters such as these. But as I am a contrarian little rat boy who feels obligated to give his opinion on everything I have quite a bit to say starting with the whole "twisting minds" thing that happens to revan. This is one of my least favourite retcons ever. The Revan who was "born" during the mandalorian wars and continued into the jedi civil war was a monster and the idea that revan chose this path is what makes him so interesting to me. To take any accountability for the monster that revan becomes out of his hands, even so little as the vague "twists revans mind" or the idea that there was ever an order to destroy the Republic given to revan, ultimately cheapens that sacrifice revan is meant to have made. To even hint at the idea revan was not fully behind the idea to go sith turns revan from the most unique sith lord to just another jedi fallen to the dark side. Another problem, though this one is admittedly petty, I have is the idea of hubris in revans actions. I just feel it is out of character for both the original sith lord who sacrificed his humanity for the galaxy and for the good jedi he becomes after the mind wipe. Neither feel like the type of characters who would make such an incredible mistake for the sake of their pride. Other than these two most of my other problems just stem from the fact swtor fails to live up to kotor 2s greatness and my own expectations so yeah. Great video mate keep up the good work.

This is fairly typical defensive analysis and it suffers from the same issues most defensive analysis does. Stories are more than their plot summary dude. If a character feels as though they've been stripped of their agency by the writing then they may as well have been. And I don't see what purpose these elements serve really, but one thing that's for certain is they give that feeling

I really like how you explain the differences between the "light side" Revan and the "dark side" Revan. Also, excellent job weaving a simple thread of explaining why Revan in KOTOR is different from the Revan in the comics and SWTOR. I find it a very succinct, and easy to follow explanation, plus it gives an excellent reason of how you can enjoy doing a playthrough that includes both KOTOR and SWTOR. Hope to see the channel grow as KOTOR gets more popular again.

This channel suddenly started popping up in my feed a few days ago, and gosh bloody darnit of these videos aren't making me sorely miss playing SWTOR years ago.

I think that overall, it only helped to enhance his character even more and add more to what was already the best force user in all of Star Wars.

Nearly 3 years later, I remembered this video and used it for a post-secondary critical analysis paper. Just a great video essay.

SWTOR didn't ruin Revan, but it ended his story.

I liked that in the end Revan helped defeat the sith emperor. But the ruined kotor 2 And the jedi exile

I mean they didn't ruin his character. But they didn't do him any favors.

We'll just skim past the holo the Exile discovered of Revan wearing his mask when he left Mandalore the Preserver.

Well done mate, you have entirely changed my mind and everything here makes total sense. I now have more faith in you and your channel: Influence Gained!

This is really well put together. To be honest when I put Revans story in full perspective I always feel that Revans destiny was never to stop Vitiate. It was to prepare the galaxy to fight the True Sith Empire. Think of it this way. Revan set into motion the events of Kotor 2, the events for the rebirth of the Jedi Order, uncorrupted and improved. He also held off Vitiate for 300 years so that the Republic and Jedi could rebuild their forces. Though that's just my interpritation.

'I'm extremely critical' understatement of the century Luke... I've been here for a while, and... yeah haha

SWTOR is a gem that I found way too late, because I didnt know how much great singleplay it held. I love kotor and swtor - great games.

You lay it out beautifully! This way his split of light and dark side Revan in swtor makes a lot more sense.

Swtor didn't ruin Revan but the Exile in the other hand and that is the only thing that argers me about the whole Revan's story in the novel and Swtor

I think what made Revan grating in TOR was his voice acting. He wouldn't stop yelling and only had one mode where he was constantly making declarations.

Awesome video. Always found his story interesting, even before I knew the whole thing - I started with Swtor. Great character all the way - definitely even more interesting due to him splitting his soul into his light and dark sides. It was nice seeing him help me finish off Valkorion (although I have a sneaky suspicion that he's not all that 'gone' from the galaxy...).

Awesome video!

You hit it right on the nail, Exactly on it. I was pissed about the book, Reven being brain washed by the Sith emperor Vishiate, but when I played the MMO I got the feeling that what happened there is exactly as you said, I just did not know how to put it into words that ppl could understand. Job well done!

Fantastic video, very well done

He actually still had some of his bloodline in SWTOR he still had Satele Shan and Theron Shan so his family wasn't entirely gone

Revan in SWTOR has some of the toughest battles. Temple of sacrifice Hard Mode is easily the most difficult veteran mode operation in the game.

I remember a time when I had theorized a long while that he was still fighting his last fight. One last battle. And Scourge was helping him. I was so happy to see them together once more. Even more so with imo his successor, he was able to beat the monster once and for all. Even though he was evil when he made his own faction, he wasn’t wrong to do so. The HoT/Commander did the same thing but better. I’d like to think even after death when he became whole, even though he was focused on beating the emperor, he also wanted to create something that could mediate both sides. An Alliance

That was a great explanation and I couldn't have said it any better, my friend. This was a well thought out video and should open up some minds as well as eyes to the whole story of Revan and not just what they remember or think they remember from the KOTOR games. Well done, my friend.

Your explanation is plausible and certainly a good way of making sense. I think however it's beside the point. Revan had the potential to be a character that had both the redemption aspect of Anikin and the hero aspect of Luke Skywalker. While what you said about Kotor II can make sense, the interpretation of what Kreia says can be fairly wide which I think is what that game tried to achieve. Giving Revan the chance to be instrumental in defeating the evil emperor rather than make him a toy that goes back and forth is what I would have loved to see and why I was and still am disappointed in swtor.

I never saw it this way, good explanation. I still wish that it was better, but I think I get where you are going.

I always was saddened that Revan wasn't the one to beat Vitiate, but I understand. (Especially from a game development standpoint.) It was just not right to see someone as naturally gifted with power as Revan lose to someone who had to use a ritual to steal the power. Natural Valkorion vs Natural Revan and Revan wins. Easy. It's just a other tragedy of Star Wars. I wish the Sith and Jedi would have left him alone, but they couldn't. Both feared his power. I firmly believe that Revan never fell to the Darkseid. He only embraced the force in its entirety. Good video, mate. Keep it up.

To be honestly I love that they added Revan and honestly the mmo swtor is supposed to be kotor3 but witha new character to finish Revan's story

Well, that does actually make sense. Still wish Revan's post-KOTOR story was different (not sure how exactly), but it is what it is.

You did a great job explaining this.

Good stuff man. I didn't think you would, but you ended up changing my mind about SWTOR's take on Revan! Although I still kind of wish SWTOR never existed, and that they just would've made KOTOR 3, I can at least respect how Revan's arc turned out in the end

You have amazing thoughts and quotes about Revan dude

Thank you for the words of confidence my friends. May The Force be with you & serve you well.

I mean... Yeah, his character as a whole wasn't ruined, he is still my favourite character from the old republic era, but the way TOR handled him and especially the exile was obnoxious. After Kotor 2, her amazing story, the exile became an irrelevant force ghost after getting stabbed in the back, while she was supposed to be a wound in the force that passively dominates the will of others around her... No comment. Revan was rescued by the republic forces and immediately after died in a dungeon... They put him in the game just for the sake of him being there because he is a well known character. But they could've done so much more with him. Like, he could've joined the jedi on Tython and help both Jedi classes, especially the Knight when we destroyed Vitiate's body. He could've spoke with Bastila (well, kinda...) with the help of that machine we repaired during the Jedi Sage questline. In TOR, he became a madman who tried to commit mass genocide twice and only made things worse.

You make some valid points... I never even considered KOTOR 1 Revan being different to the Original

Absolutely love this video and your character analysis. I would perhaps take issue with the point you make regarding Revan not really being Revan at all in Kotor 1. As I understand it, the character you inhabit is essentially the same man who was willing to go to war to save the galaxy, but before his fall to the dark side (if indeed it could be termed that) took place. The overall impression that emerges from the two Kotor game and ancillary materials is that Revan’s memories and corruption were erased by the Jedi Council. His core self, the skilled warrior with a strong command of the Force, the charismatic leader who excelled at rallying others to his cause, and the selfless Jedi who put the welfare of others before his own remained intact. Still, I do think a lot of this is up for debate, which only speaks to how intriguing and compelling Revan’s story is. You’ve definitely earned a sun and a like from me, good sir 👌🏻

I sometimes think Revan was the 'Chosen One' as he definitely used both light and dark sides of the force. The Jedi of the time couldn't see it due to their fear of the dark side. Vitiate couldn't destroy him although he did perhaps split his light and dark side. I thought SWTOR did a good job with him by letting him be part of the destruction of Tenebrae, his ultimate goal.

This explained a lot for me thank you

can i just say that i love you? not in a romantic sense but in a personal, friendly,admiring sense. i love having channels/friends/strangers in my life that talk about what i love the most. so thank you, kotor 2 is a game i played probably more than anyone, i litteraly played it for over 1500 hours on steam and that's like years and years after i owned it physically/pirated it and played off steam for forever.

If anyone was ruined it was the Exile... the Exile did not deserve how much got jobbed...

SWtOR go: Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

I always saw Revan as the Anti-Sidious

Wonder what you think of Revan on the update where you finally beat Tenebrae for good

Which swtor storyline/campaign covers the revan story please?

*Revan returns to the galaxy* *Revanites being like: 😎😎*

what music is that in the video section revan novel?

Honestly when I found out that swtor was MMO I just never wanted to get involved with it . I get it and it's bioware but nah fam . Sigh smh I was so disappointed by that . I heard the stories is better than most MMO games but idk if their on par with rpg games and that's where I wanted revan and the Kotor universe to have stayed personally. I know it wasn't Kotor 3 but if it's anything surrounding revan and the exile or the ramifications of their actions or inactions I don't wanna play no MMO . It would be nice if bioware made the game for console though like some MMO's over the past years have done . I would be inclined to try it out . But generally I don't rock with MMO games

Would love to hear your take or see a video of your thoughts of the Emperor’s conclusion (along with Revan) in the “Echoes of Oblivion” storyline.

This needs a lot more views!

Is that Keanu Reeves as Revan in the thumbnail?

Thank you for sharing that point of view! You absolutely right. Revan fanboys should've grown up to accept that this indeed is the only logical way for writers to finish the story of that character. Like I did.

This video is titled why swtor didn't ruin Revan.... Proceeds to go into detail explaining exactly how swtor ruined Revan

good video its made me view revan differently (i always liked him) the part you say he did everything to prevent a bigger problem i agree with but when do you think he took malaks jaw off? pre emperor or post? also why?

Well done!

I've always thought they didn't ruin Revan in SWTOR, but you just worded it perfectly. Well done mate.

I didn't know the Dread Masters were involved with torturing Revan. Interesting.

Swtor changed from being an 8 story path to a Jedi Knight path played by 8 different classes

For you WoW players that check out SWTOR, think of what happens to Revan as to what happens to Lady Sylvannas only written better, and brought to a much more satisfying ending. Love this video, and not sure how to say this, but I've understood the point of the video all this time, but it took this video for me to have all these scattered thoughts come into one idea. Thanks man, for making this video.

I did feel like Revan was a bit shoehorned into SWTOR, but I didn't care. I love Revan, and I love him in TOR, no matter how awkwardly he's integrated into the story

I just think of how revan in the original was ambiguous so people could play him/her in so many different ways with different outcomes. I never felt like anyone who played a different path than mine had less or more value. So that’s what I think about swtors take…it doesn’t ruin it for me. It’s not the story I had in my mind for my revan..and that’s fine. I’m just about having fun. I don’t care what is canon or isn’t. My Luke skywalker isn’t the Disney version. Doesn’t mean the Disney version doesn’t have value to someone and that’s good for them …I just choose legacy Luke as my preference.

My friend fantastic and amazing video as always. I saw the Shadow of Revan on KZfaq and it was fascinating but I wasn't that happy about the ending. I'm not saying SWTOR ruined Revan's story arc but I think if Bioware had done KOTOR 3 then Revan's story would have ended better. My major complaint about SWTOR is when you get into fighting scenes it goes into a video game form of defeated your opponent whereas when I watch a KOTOR video and their characters are fighting it looks like an animated series which is what I like

Do you think aspyer will change and add story bits to link up with swtor

Plausibility (of Revan's fate post KoToR I/II as written by new authors) has nothing to do with it. Is it plausible that Cpl. Hicks died in cryo? Sure it is, doesn't stop Alien 3 being hated by fans of that franchise. Is it plausible that Joel gets beaten to death with a golf club? Sure, but that LoU 2 story line is still one of the most despised ones in a game over the last 10 years. There are dozens of plausible fates for Revan. For example, could the "greatest strategist of the age" have come up with a plan that succeeded and killed the emperor but both he and the exile had to give their lives in the process? Of course it is. TOR then opens under a backdrop of a Sith Empire only recently coming out of a 300 year civil war with lords and factions (including Revan cultists) still jockeying for power. TOR then is a whole different story but very much still very plausible. You or I or any 12 grader could come up with half-a dozen alternate plausible routes in a couple of days I'd wager. It's the fact that of all the possible scenarios, the one that we get is where each plan by the "master strategist" is more ill-conceived and amateurish than the next resulting in failure after failure and a 300 year cycle of capture and torture is what is ruinous to the legacy/reputation of a person of whom Canderous Ordo once said, "You're the greatest Warrior of the Age, I'd follow you anywhere."

If you let it be canon or Lucas Arts canon. I refuse TOR to exist.

Interesting take and I can see how some people like Revan’s story within the Old Republic game. I myself was hoping for something different. I wanted a KOTOR 3 proper which may have concluded his story OR left it open for further sequels. Over the years I thought of fanfic ideas of how and why things would be or playout in KOTOR 3. One that has stuck with me is that in KOTOR 3 the Exile would team up with the OG crew to go find Revan. They go out there thinking he left to stop some ancient evil but find the real reason was he left to save bastila and his child the hardships of being connected to him. You see people remember, the mandalorians remember the atrocities he committed during the war and his part in the destructing of Malachor 5. Most people blame Revan for the destruction of Taris because it was his apprentice that destroyed it. They don’t care that he has changed and is now back on the Light Side, he and those who are his family and friends should pay. On top of all that he is tormented with dreams of the man he once was and the thrill of some of the horrible things he did, these dreams of bloodshed and instead of horror he feels the power, the seduction of the dark side. Because of these troubled dreams and lack of sleep he starts to question his control. When one day he is noticed by a man who sees Bastila (who is pregnant) tries to throw a rock at him but it hits bastila instead. Though not injured Revan sees his wife and because of the lack of sleep and slipping control lashes out and almost kills the man with the force. He stops though when seeing the man has a wife and daughter watching in horror. He looks around seeing the crowd are scared… scared of him. This is the true reason he leaves. It’s because as long as he is around those he loves they will be in danger because of him. That the fear of something bad happening to any of them could lead him back into the dark side. He realizes that perhaps for their safety and his “soul” he should exile himself… that perhaps this is the punishment he deserves. The exile and gang go out to find him, out past the unknown regions, with the plans in the Hawk out past the edges of the galaxy. They come to find out that while he left because a fear of himself he did in fact find some ancient evil out there… the Yuuzhan Vong.

I agree with your logic. It is hard to accept this as Revan's fate. Its not that Revan was ruined, its the fact that joining Revan on his crusade isn't possible is the issue. Using him as a sub boss and essentially killing him off from a journey that he started for us all and wasn't able to see it all the way through, is what i believe fans are upset about. It just feels more like a Disney star wars and half assed shock value fan nostalgia rather than a Bioware Star Wars that felt fleshed out with storytelling and choice. I hope this will get a retcon in the future. Let us Pray the remake is successful and this time they actually make a 3rd KOTOR down the road the way it was originally intended to be.

The funny thing is I’m currently playing through shadow of Revan on swtor as I comment this and tbh I feel as tho swtor adds more to the character who I have loved in Star Wars for so long , I also see how it connects what happened in the kotor games and swtor (the two flashpoints and the shadow of Revan expansion) together into an over arching story

I watched this video to the end, alas I still think they ruined Revan in the MMO. It would have been better for Revan to die an old man with Bastilla and his legacy to live on in Sateele. The whole split soul, Revan struggling against the emperor etc is weak and disappointing at best.

"Before you all start hitting the unsubscribe button" Bruh, I'm subscribing BECAUSE of this video. I 100% agree. SWTOR has its problems, but it certainly does not ruin Revan.

I agree with your opinion. SWTOR didn’t ruin Revan, it added more to his character to the point where he became a tortured soul that was split in two thanks to The Sith Emperor/Darth Vitiate. His light side became one with the force, while his inner demons, his dark side, clung to life, refusing to die. The poor man was insane, and it was all The Emperor’s fault. Hell, this made me love Revan even more because his story is not only similar to Anakin/Vader’s (insert “it’s like poetry, it rhymes” quote here), it’s also, in a story sense, a great way to finally give Revan the peace he deserved.

Revan will always be awesome

Best Star Wars channel ngl

Damn bruh, you nailed it!

You hit the nail on the head my mans.

Well, I understood the concept, but I fundamentally disagreed with it. Call me a powerscaler (which concept in Star Wars, you could say, isn't really present), but I didn't think there was anyone with a stronger will than Revan in his time. And contrary to what the overall theme of Star Wars, as well as KotOR II and Kreia, tell us, for me Neutrality isn't synonymous with apathy. Being Neutral in the Force meant Revan could do anything that is possible to do with the Force, be it in the Light, Dark or Neutral. Heal himself and others, Drain the lifefroce from surrounding life, use Force Wave, Crush and twist his opponents with the Force, chuck Lightnings at them and even create storms! And all things considered Revan WAS a Neutral spot in the Force, tasted both the Light and Dark Sides, returned from darkness which was pretty much an unprecedented feat. He was capable of doing about anything. That's why I didn't feel like that Vitate dude could budge him, even with all the Sith alchemy and stuffs... but that's in my personal opinion.

Wow, a Star Wars youtuber that actually managed a semi-decent character analysis. Never thought I'd see the day lol.

It may not have ruined Revan, but it really screwed the Jedi Exile into the ground.