What if it isn't bait? What if it truly is my unfiltered dogshit opinion, huh? What then?

Fantasy has skaven, 40k does not. Case closed

I like fantasy because it feels more like "humans are fighting hard and (occasionally) win by being smart and strategic even in a world where nearly everyone wants humanity dead." Instead of "The humans suck, the aliens suck, everyone sucks, and everyone has an iq you can count on one hand."

"My name... Is Karl Franz - And I was born into this world, just like you." Honestly, that line is the sole reason why I'd commit playing an Empire of Man campaign more than any of the other Total War Warhammer Campaigns. Just men and women fighting back against the darkness with good ol' fashioned human ingenuity, diplomacy, and inviolable spirit, flaws and all.

In Fantasy, semi-regular Joes can realistically travel through the settting and be reasonably expexted to defend themselves without needing to be babysat by Astartes and Inquisition

I like how it can easily be a more “low stakes” setting. Not every story is an end of the world or massive army of darkness story like 40k. Sometimes it’s just some dudes on an adventure to a lost city or defending one town from about 100 beastmen. Sometimes small scale is more fun.

Lore wise, I love that in fantasy, a regular man or woman can simply decide they want to do something with their lives, pack up, and go make it for themselves and end up achieving amazing things. In 40k their is very little personal agency in any faction. They all have their own mechanic that forces people into pre-determined roles.

In my experience 40k is more interesting on a first impression, but Fantasy is so much richer and flavourful when you dig deeper.

For an 80s kid like me 40k was cooler just because it took familiar fantasy tropes (orcs, elves, inquisitors and demons...) and put them in this heavy metal sci-fi setting which back then was grimdark but still full of humor, with sentient fungi so stubborn they believe red makes you go faster so much that IT DOES, hitching a ride on planet sized hunks of junk. We had space vampires and space werewolves fighting against an army of Aliens and living metal skeletons. Wow! My last spark of interest for the modern setting died when they added primaris marines. They are the cream of the crop, BUT CREAMIER. Marines were the best humanity had to offer, now buy the bestest! They are taller! Bah.

One of my favorite parts of Warhammer Fantasy is how the setting uses Monsters. Not things like chaos spawn but the Lizardmen, Skaven, Vampires, Treekin, Trolls, and a lot more. WF is one of the only settings that makes these creatures feel like people. they form governments, scheme, work, and go through life much like your standard fantasy races would. So many Fantasy settings make humans, elves, dwarves, and the like by far the most dominant races without much cause. But in Warhammer, if you venture outside the few nations held by those races, you’ll enter into the world of monsters, where a raging dryad with gut you for picking up sticks in her forest, where Ogres thrive in the lands to harsh for human settlement, and where Lizardmen hold domain over almost an entire continent

I think its the fact that diplomacy exists in warhammer fantasy. In warhammer 40K every race hates one another and wants to genocide each other off the map> IN warhammer fantasy the humans and dwarves get along well, the humans and elves interact and have alliances sometimes, the haflings live with the humans and entire cities are full of all the different "goodly" races living together. You get interesting dynamics and fun stories. Its still "holy shit the world is dark and full of terrors" but its also a little "And we are gonna stand together against the darkness' at times. Hell even the spooky mummy men are diplomatic, this adds a lot of depth to the world.

I think the Fantasy setting really helps with keeping the silliness of fantasy while 40k tries way too hard to be serious and dark to a point where grimderp happens far far more. Plus even despite Fantasy having sapient crack addict ratmen and a really fat goblin running a tribe of greenskins it still feels somewhat more serious than 40k, simply because yeah you can expect the rats and greenskins are killing people for fun but it doesn't try to hit you with the "life sucks, everyone's evil" that 40k tries to hammer over and over and over.

For me, I love the diversity among even just the human races. Bretonnians, Empire, Estalians, Tileans, Norscans, Albion, Cathay, Kislev, Nippon, Ind, Araby, etc. Not to mention all of the non human races. None of the 40k factions have ever really appealed to me

My big thing is that fantasy actually handles morality in an interesting way. 40K doesn't have shades of grey as much as slightly less pitch black factions. It makes a faction doing something dubious lose all meaning, and makes the few good people we see feel inconsequential in the face of their team's assholery. Fantasy factions can have actual nuance and depth to them, largely because they don't all hate each other by default. Because of this, there's way more opportunity to see factions actually interact in a way outside of insults and warfare. The Empire of Man and its internal problems honestly aren't too far off from an actual historical empire. Its a genuinely functional society where you can say "yes, living here is better than fucking off into the wilds to make your own little community." A sizable chunk of its leadership actually cares about the well-being of its people. Things can and have changed for the better, with our boy Karl being hailed as one of the more forward-thinking emperors they've had. The average citizen has a shot at leading a fulfilling life if they don't get killed in a raid by one of the ten different threats pushing at their borders. It has good (or at least cordial) relations with multiple other civilizations, and wont just kill someone for being different. The High Elves may be aloof and arrogant, but many of them are still decent people. They obviously prioritize their own interests, but will still come to the aid of their neighbors if the situation arises. There's a great comic out there (think it was White Dwarf) where Karl is valiantly fighting off a chaos incursion and is ready to lay down his life to keep his people safe. When all hope seems lost, an Asur fleet arrives to deliver crucial reinforcements and save the day. You even have people like Teclis, who actively visits and aids the younger civilizations in hopes of seeing them prosper and hold out against chaos. He's the whole reason the Empire has the colleges of magic. The Dwarfs are stubborn, almost as arrogant as the Elves, and will pursue grudges far past the point of reason. But they're also stalwart allies who will NEVER go back on a promise. If a Dawi has given his word that he will be there on the day battle arrives, he will be there. If a Dawi names you his friend, he would die to save your life. And if, ancestors forbid, someone should manage take your life, he will hunt down every last one of the wazzocks until you've been avenged. Even their legendary grudge against the Elves is more of a tragedy than anything else. The two races were once firm allies and friends, and the fact that such a bitter rift has divided them for centuries is a tragedy second only to the fact that both parties are too prideful to make amends. Compare them to their 40k counterparts (granted I don't know much about the new Voltann space dwarfs) and it's a night and day difference. When you read a story about a true hero of the Empire, Asur, or Dawi, you can reasonably see how they could fit into their society instead of being a weird outlier.

I really like how Warhammer Fantasy has hope in all the darkness-which makes it both more believable/realistic and better for storytelling. 40k has no hope. The world is evil and the closest thing to a better future is oppression under “the cruelest regime imaginable.”

Both fantasy and 40k were created by history nerds and the grim dark became a bigger thing over time. The thing I liked about fantasy is that it retained more of the history focus while it seems that 40k is focusing more of the grimdark simply for the sake of being grimdark which harms the franchise in my opinion.

If Fantasy hadn't been killed for Age of Sigmar I'd probably be all over it. Now it just reminds me of finding a cool TV show, being stoked, then finding out that it got cancelled halfway through.

Another thing that I liked about fantasy is that there's more diversity. Sure, it's just "Fantasy China," "Fantasy Arabia," "Fantasy HRE," and "Aztecs but they're lizards," but it's still something compared to "Generic SM Chapter #988." It's also I think a bit less grimdark than 40k. Sure, it can be quite grimdark, but not to the insane point of 40k is. Depending on where they live, general people can still lead a 'normal', happy life.

I like how in Warhammer there is a lot more interactions between races. I've recently been reading the Drachenfel novel and the rest of the series and the fact that a fucking Vampire of any kind is even remotely welcome in the vicinity of Karl Franz and other elector counts is astounding. The Wood-elves and Bretonnians regularly interact, orks and Ogres can be mercenaries for the Empire. I also like how the Empire isn't the only human faction. Cathay, Nippon, Arabi, Ind. I'd even argue the Southern Realms (Tilea is the first that comes to mind). Dwarves and humans work together, skaven and chaos work together. In 40k in general this is almost unheard of minus a few exceptions (Notable ones I admit) I play the tabletop and because of the Dogs of war book from 6th ed, I can use Orks, dwarves, elves, Halflings (moot), giants, Etc.

The thing that really makes Fantasy just better as a setting then 40K is that the factions outside of the humans actually matter and have their own goals and have the ability to go after them and arent just treated as another thing for the humans to shoot at. The Tyranids are a joke, the Eldar are irrelevant, orks are pest, Tau are also a joke and Chaos is barely it's own faction anymore and is just mean humans now. And the only kind of threatening race is the Necrons

Dude woke up and decided to speak facts

Gentlemen, we must form a protective shield around this man for speaking such facts.

Honestly the reason why i like fantasy more, is because there are unlinke in 40k are characters who are actually likeable. Yes, of course there are still many terrible people among them, but at least some of fantasy characters are actually capable to make you relate to them in one way or another, which is much more important to me as a person who cares more of a lore and stories told in the world than the actual tabletop staff.

It's been said, but the Fantasy races (the Order races, that is) give you more reason to root for them as well. Like, all of the Order races have societal problems that could be railed against more in the absence of immediate threats, but because of the time period and constant threat of destruction, I can understand why those problems exist and on top of that, the characters are interesting enough to keep me invested. 40k, in terms of both characters and worldbuilding, feels like it's copping out with the whole "everyone is terrible, but some are more terrible than others." It's just so needlessly grim (and also why I like to use TTS canon over anything GW puts out).

Fantasy is a better written setting but because it draws from history but isn’t as flexible as 40k and 40k allows for more possibilities. Really both are excellent, Fantasy just is more immersive and coherent

What I love about WH: Fantasy is how non-standard everything feels. When I first got into it, I expected it to be quite generic, because as far as I knew it was really the origin of a lot of modern fantasy tropes. But it honestly surprised me. Empire basically being the Holy Roman Empire, Lizardmen being the bastion against Chaos, Skaven being as insane as they are, Dwarves having their book of Grudges, etc. I love my Ratbois.

It just feels way more... meaningful. 40k and many large scale universes(like marvel) lose the impact of their conflicts when there is just a seemingly endless scale that makes it feel pointless. If you read the gotrek and felix novels (or listen to the excellent audiobooks) The world of fantasy feels more lived in. It has more variation in the personalities of both the people and the monsters and demons. There are skaven that feel human, demons who have personality, vampires that are sympathetic or heroic(like ulrica)... Even the elves feel more like people, people that have become aloof because of their exceptionally long lives, but in the right circumstances can suprise you. 40k is just endless battles and grim groans about the endless death and destruction. Fantasy had grim themes, but it was filled with a sense of humor about it. Then AOS came and ended it all for no reason, made it endless portals and dumb realm bullshit in a chaos grey shitland. The awesome thing in warhammer fantasy is the color. The vibrant beauty of elven nature, the gold and steel of dwarven holds, the 1800s styles of citys and towns in human lands, the green and brown and red of orks. There was contrast in fantasy.

One thing I really like about WF lore is the interconnectedness of it. When you're reading lore for a certain faction you get different perspectives on certain key events from multiple angles. A good example is Alcadizzar killing Nagash from both the Tomb Kings Lore (which focuses on the climactic battle), the Skaven's (which focuses on the underground power struggle and their fear of Nagash and his huge army which led to them getting involved) and the Vampire Counts (which is mostly about their politicing and the aftermath of their defeat). You don't get the whole picture from a single faction, it is more how the events influences that particular one and how they influenced it. Another good example is the climactic earthquakes that the Skaven caused and the ripple of effects it had.

Thing is, I like fantasy because it’s factions and people just feel more realistic, you have people who hate those who are different, and you have people who actively work with other races, like there is a more real feel to each faction from the differences within them than you usually get from 40k, although I like the aesthetic of 40k more, normal nights are never going to be better than one that is30 feet tall and made out of metal

I personally consider Warhammer Fantasy one of the few fantasy settings I like. The points about scale and impact of the characters actions I agree with, but I also like how Fantasy isn't afraid to still not take itself too seriously. 40K in the beginning was a lot of dark comedy that slowly turned into grimdark hopelessness. Warhammer Fantasy has characters like Glibfoot Volespanker and the entirety of Bretonnia. There's plenty of space for both ridiculous parody and stirring emotion in the setting.

Fun Fact: Terry Pratchet was hired to do his own novel in the Warhammer verse with his own humanist style, yet it ended up not being done.

I’m not gonna lie, I loved fantasy in other universes but I never got into WH fantasy until WH1 came out and I really started looking into the lore etc. Now I’m pretty sure it’s my favourite fantasy setting.

Well, let's see. Reasons I like 40k: - The modern setting makes some of their fears and desires more relatable. - The bigness is a source of humor. - Humans are my favorite race in fantasy for relatability reasons, and until recently 40k had more variations on them. - They're the only sci-fi franchise that hasn't been cheapened by the mouse yet, and despite their fan-hating the stat of the setting is such that my emotional investment isn't harmed by their corpo meddling. Reasons I like fantasy: - One of the few fantasy settings with guns, despite guns being around for 4 centuries of the middle ages and renaissance. - Empire of Man is an interesting exploration of human motives, and much less succeptable to plot override by inquisitors or marines. If the captain of Ostland is corrupt, you can't just kill him. - The world looking like Earth allows for funny and interesting alt-history fun, like renaming Naggoroth "Pittsburgh". - The races are less dickish.

I love fantasy more. When I think of chaos, I think of Chaos Spawn. A breeze for space marine, or QUADRASIXTILION of Guardsmen from QUADRASIXTILION of planets. But in fantasy - it's a humble halberdier who holds the line. A regular dude, somewhat similar to a Guardsman, but no space Knights or orbital bombardments to save the day. It's just you and handgunneer Hank. Thanks, Hank

I've always felt this way too. The big reason is that warhammer just feels more personal to me. You know the locations, the people. Wars feel impactful. There's more personality in a street in altdorf than in entire wh40k systems.

I agree. What bothers me about 40k is that it is modern, totalizing. Everything is part of an overarching machine of war. Everything is potentially connected, there is always someone somewhere who needs you, to travel do a distant battlefield, to farm harder on your agriworld plot, to build a bigger lasgun factory. Everyone is always in some sense plugged into the consequences of this galaxy-spanning struggle, there is never quite any time where you're justified in chilling out or focusing on yourself, if you're not yet dead, it means you can potentially do more. In fantasy, sometimes, just maybe sometimes, it'll happen that you can look from horizon to horizon, and there won't be anything immediately trying to kill you. Sometimes, the gods smile, sometimes you build something cool, you clear out a bunch of monsters, the sky is blue, and you can just sit, chill out, and feel good about it, without the galaxy phone calling asking for more bodies. Overall, it's more colorful, more romantic, more cozy, there is nature, not just industry and urban brutalism. Scale means something to normal people, because not everything is so big that it defies human intuition. Things are more relatable on a human scale.

One of the other reasons I love fantasy, this isn't a big one but still a pretty big chunk. Both chaos in fantasy and 40k are practically the same, sure chaos in fantasy are maybe a lot weaker, but that greater demon is still a greater demon, and it'll mush anyone to jelly 40k or fantasy. Now in 40k what usually happens? The greater demon usually gets to fight against a few guardsmen before the grey knights arrive and ultimately save the day, taking "care" Of the guardsmen in the process. In fantasy, the soldiers of the Empire would probably shoot it with handguns and cannons before a stabbing it several times with spears and having a warrior priest 1v1 it

I was originally more interested in 40K, but the more I learned and experienced with Fantasy, the more I began to prefer it. Maybe because it feels like there is still a glimmer of hope within the Fantasy universe that 40K typically lacks. And I for one feel, especially with how things have been going the last few years in real life, a little bit of hope is needed every now and then.

I think your point on 40k characters being templates is a strong one, and its a part of why I really like necrons and their characters. From Trazyn and Nemesor, to Szeras and the Silent King, necron nobles feel like they can have diversity

I like the scale of 40k because it makes it easier to create stories about "Your Guys" without needing to affect things on the galactic scale.

I like 40k’s Orks, but I am in love with Fantasy’s Greenskins. Skarsnik has quickly become one of my favourite characters in anything.

Love the scifi/scifantasy of 40k but it feels like grimdark really has swan dived into the realm of grimderp. Especially in the scale of the setting, you're absolutely correct that it's a double edged sword.

I think what I love about Fantasy is how the stakes are actually REAL, also I'm a bit of a medieval history hobbyist, but never mind that last part. When the Imperium of man suffers from a Chaos raid, I go "cool, those Chaos guys were impressive" Whenever the Imperium loses to Eldar (craft world) I go, "well deserved Eldar! you guys didn't do anything stupid" Whenever the Imperium loses to Tau I put a hand on my face and go "geez who the hell writes this stuff?" Whenever Imperium loses to Tyrannids or Necrons... ok well maybe I do actually think that shit has stakes... Or vice versa where the Imperium pulls out a totally BS win because of plot armor (Which all factions have by the way). I really stop caring about the fate of the Imperium itself, really I guess I only care about the characters themselves or maybe just the one world, the Imperium is so large that none of it really does much. But for the Empire? yeah whenever a world-ending threat happens, a genuine world-ending threat happens, you can feel it. Whenever 50 Orks come up and kill loads of people, you go "Oh shit that's bad", and when whole villages are slaughtered you go "oh fuck!" When Skaven finds a giant-ass Warpstone that's polluting the river and turning whole towns into Chaos cultists, then you go "damn this is bad" you feel like the Empire is truly in danger and thus your heroes matter, and when there's an incompetent commander you genuinely go "wow this is bad" instead of going "someone should just execute this guy already". I mean sure, the plot armor still exists, but it really does feel more impressive. Just more stakes in general, there is a real effect on the world.

I love that almost every reason you listed for preferring WF to 40K is a reason I prefer 40K to WF hahaha 1) The ridiculous scale in 40K is part of the fun. The fact that entire planets get destroyed or conquered regularly and it's of little consequence (most of the time) is hilarious. You're completely right that it deadens any sense of narrative impact though. 2) The unrelatable characters of 40K make the setting truly alien. It's fascinating to explore an imaginary space where humans live in such different circumstances from our own that they cease to be fully recognizable to us. They are grotesque and frightening, which to me makes the moments where their humanity shines through more significant. Also I think that portraying a society that is so inured to mass murder and oppression, to the point where they carry it out by force of habit, really underlines the dubious justification for maintaining a theocratic autocracy. Over millennia they have tricked themselves into thinking that it's necessary to commit genocide just to survive. Whereas in WF violence against Chaos cultists and other enemies is depicted as less ambiguously righteous. 3) I think having a murky, contradictory in-universe history is closer to the nature of real world history. The popular conception of what life was like in the Middle Ages, the Enlightenment, the Victorian Era, and any other historical period is almost always at odds with reality. The constant struggle of distinguishing between what actually happened in the past and what people want to believe happened in the past, the identification of misleading meta-narratives, is the essence of historiography. I always assume most 40K lore is propaganda mixed with elements of truth, which to me makes the universe feel more expansive. Kinda like the possibilities are endless. It reminds me of Dark Souls, in the sense that you're given breadcrumbs and have to reconstruct the full story yourself. Anyway, thanks for sharing your perspective. It's interesting how differently we interpreted the same things haha

I personally love the Horus Heresy, because it is a bit more focused than 40k and the time scale of like 10 years is far easier to grasp than 10,000. Also it fleshes out the space marines to make them actually interesting compared to 40k

I also think some races work better in 40k and fantasy respectively. I really prefer how CA built Necron lore out in 40k than the Tomb Kings in fantasy, but I feel like chaotic demons are lot more believable in in a fantasy settings as it's hard to imagine Slaneshi nudists surviving long against space marine firepower.

I’ve always loved how Warhammer essentially took Martin Luther’s Germany and put it in a fantasy setting pretty faithfully.

There is no literal dinosaur damage in 40k. I rest my case, your honor.

Just the fact that you can have a game like total war and REALLY live out your fantasy of how the story should go, how to finally beat chaos or how to finally conquer the world as skaven or how to finally bring back the golden age of the elves already lends itself so much more investment than 40k. And I think you’re right that 40k just really lends itself to burn out. So much war, religious zealotry, destruction and all that and it really not only desensitizes you but in fact becomes tedious. There is nothing more tedious than going over the different space marine factions and how they are all badass in this or that way which more often than not is really all just the same. And yeah as much as I love the imperial soldier, there is nothing that brings a tear to my eye like a German dude with a pike taking on a 30ft tall pestilent demon

100% understand and agree with this! Personally though, and this is no attack on this video more of an addition from the other side, I actually enjoy the fact that 40k IS so massive in size and scope because it allows for people to create and enjoy their own stories and characters. It's a galaxy after all! Aside from main characters and their canon, who's to say that an OC or story can't exist in 40k? I feel that because of the very GOOD smaller scope of Fantasy, such a thing could be more difficult to do. . .. ... ..... ...Yes I have a cringe ork OC and story in the 40k universe. I love him and his story. It is incredibly stupid.

I think a lot of Fantasy shines through in its Lore or in the books written about the setting, where the protagonists manage to overcome the threat to them either through their own strengths, strategic planning or in some cases pure luck, it feels realistic and it actually creates a form of suspense because a character you like could actually get killed off even if they are the protagonist of whatever scenario you're reading about Meanwhile in 40k it boils down to this: "And then the Ultramarines found a magical rock that sealed away the villain instantly." *roll credits*

I think WHFB's biggest strength is its factions and how they interact with eachother. Unless you're apart of the Imperium you just don't matter. The entire setting revolves around the imperium and its incredibly restraining especially for homebrew or just writing in general and that aspect is likely lost on most hardcore 40K fans who don't know what its like to have a setting where everyone but the humans aren't invalidated or just exist to give the human faction more stuff to fight and I think thats a big part of why the Tau had so much pushback because it was the first time in a very very long time where it seemed like there was a faction who actually had their own goals that they could archive that wasn't just mindless war or just jerking themselves off in the corner as a dying race forever

While i much prefer Sci-fi to fantasy, and ofcourse much prefer 40k to warhammer fantasy. It is still really nice to see it from a different perspective, it gives a context and cohesion to why fanes of both universes can appreciate the differences of genre. Good video my dude

I did always feel like many Sci-Fi settings do a bad job of not just being futuristic fantasy. Usually, each planet is just one thing, like one race, and just the same all over the plant, so really they are just standins for a country or a city in a fantasy setting. Only difference is how you get around between them, but even that isn't that different really. For the most part, Sci-Fi settings just up the scale, and replace weapons with more modern ones^^

I think it comes down to Tolkien laying out the foundation for fantasy so well, that everything that chooses to build on top of it will almost always at least kinda work. Sci-fi doesn't have a similar blueprint. Dune for example is great, but has too narrow world building to work as a foundation for much more. As a result, while Sci-fi stories by themselves can work well, they always seem to struggle when the universe they inherit is actually legitimately large and old. Its probably no wonder that Warhammer 40k is basically a fantasy setting in space. It was simply the safest option.

For most things, I'll take Warhammer Fantasy (barring the End Times, because that never happened). The one thing I like about 40k better is the aesthetic. I really like how all the races are so distinct from one another, to the point they could be out of different IPs without ever being jarring. The Eldar, Tau, and some of the Imperial Guard are standouts to me. On the other hand, the shenanigans used to keep Chaos and Orks as threats are so very tiresome, with better options being available but unused. And no one has the slightest hint of a clue about scale. One thing I like about Warhammer Fantasy is the toning down of the "eliteness" factor. In 40K, pretty much everything other than snotlings and some Imperial Guard are "super-duper veteran elite 1 in a million eat bullets for breakfast badasses who have never been beaten in 10,000 years". But when EVERYONE is like that, it starts to become pretty meaningless pretty quick. While it comes up in Fantasy (particularly for important characters who all clearly ate their Wheaties every morning), I think it is toned down by comparison.

The Drukhari wish they had the fashion sense of the Druchii

I just kinda like the "what if" vibe of 40k fights. Like what if giant mechs fought alien bug swarms, or magic space wizard elves fought ww2 vibe human soldiers? That's my sh$t.

A note about those good games: Generally speaking, the fantasy games give more perspectives than just a singular faction, whereas most 40k games focus around the space marines as the main characters. Mark of Chaos has: Empire Chaos Skaven High and dark elves And greenskin tribes Total war warhammer has every major faction playable to some extent, and even some that don't have any army book to draw from ir speak of (before Total War, Norsca was just exclusively warriors of chaos, but now they're their own group with more nuance than how to kill a village Vermintide is set in the empire, but you have representatives of the wood elves, dwarfs and bretonnia as playable characters (even if Kruber is stretching the bretonnian rep a tad) 40k games? Dawn of war 1 and 2 (outside of expansions) campain faction? Space marines Space marine? Space marines Space hulk? Space marines The main exceptions are notable enough to be known by name: mechanicus (which is in the imperium), inquisitor (which is also in the imperium), necromunda games (imperium again)

I think its most important feature is that Warhammer Fantasy allows for named characters to stand out and to remain standing out. It also allows for individuals' heroic deeds to have a significant impact on battles or even the entire setting.

Someone finally had the balls to say it, hella respect for this immaculate W bossman

The Virgin 40k Imperium or Man vs The Chad Fantasy Empire of Man, they have Sigmar, Karl Franz/Elector Counts, Ubersreik 5, and they fight basically the same horrors and daemons with nothing more than Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder

Personally I just like how fantasy doesn't focus on the Empire/Imperium only I feel like fantasy factions are kinda limited and not really developed in the current setting

I thought I was a Science Fiction guy going into "the hobby" but slowly found I enjoyed the fantasy side's games and books more. I couldn't put my finger on it really but this helped make sense out of my confused feelings.

Pancreas love the work I just want to say this I said this in my first comment but I love the work you got me into Warhammer and now I'm happy necron player

One word, "dwarves" Debate closed, have a nice day

Honestly the fact that 40k is like you took a fantasy setting and put it in a sci-fi year is the big appeal for me. I enjoy the time scale, reading about traitor terminators that are still salty over the heresy because they fought in it so have had 10,000 years to ruminate. To me I think that's the big difference between settings, fantasy feels tiny compared to how massive 40k is on paper. Issue is with 40k is honestly what we actually know is very little. It's kinda like when you are first playing a game and thinking "woah I wonder if I can go there later" and realizing how small and short the game really is. Fantasy from what I have seen takes the opposite approach where you have a small setting that gets fleshed out pretty deeply. The best way I could compare it is to say that fantasy you get a crusader kings level density of a map whilst in 40k you have near infinite planets but a single battle can wipe a planet out. I'm commenting at the 2 minute mark so most of this may get covered anyway.

I gotta say, despite my introduction to warhammer as a whole being a 40 part series of 30 minute videos on 40k in chronological order up to the 13th Black Crusade and thinking that Space Marines are really cool, I'm really coming to like Warhammer Fantasy better for one simple reason: Since Warhammer Fantasy is fantasy there is magic, and one of the most magical things that Warhammer Fantasy has almost exclusively compared to 40k is "Diplomacy". I like 40k when I want mindless violence, but more often than not, I'm liking Warhammer Fantasy

The appeal of boilerplate fantasy tropes - elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. - is the familiarity. It won't always surprise you (although putting new spins on the classic Tolkien tropes, rather than just blindly aping them, can only help your work), but it's always easy to understand. It's the fantasy equivalent to comfort food. Sometimes, you don't want someone's experimental Thai-Mexican Fusion dish. Sometimes you just want a good stew. Moreover, I would argue that, to the lay person, the familiar tropes Warhammer Fantasy repeats make it more approachable. If your only exposure to fantasy (outside Harry Potter) is Tolkien (novel, films, or that new series) or the many works copying Tolkien, or simply Cultural Osmosis, it's very easy to "get" Warhammer Fantasy. The Dwarves are dwarves, the various flavors of Elves are elves, the Orcs are orcs, the humans are humans (in Landsknecht and Arthurian flavors, among others). Vampire Counts are classic Gothic Horror undead, and the Tomb Kings are kickass mummified undead. It's extremely easy to find at least one faction, if not several, from the WHFB army roster that you can grok immediately. While this makes them very plain (which, as an aside, is as much a product of Warhammer Fantasy having its roots in the 80s, when this was all fresher), it means the newbie Fantasy Enjoyer has multiple obvious places they can jump onto with little trouble. It's easy to get into the world, because it's so familiar. 40K and Age of Sigmar both have the problem that, for everything that's familiar, there's also a whole lot that's difficult to grasp on the surface. Aside from maybe the Imperial Guard and the Orks, 40K factions need a bit of explaining for new people to get their head around. And even then, it might take them a bit of exploration before they really "get" the faction, what they're about and how they play. (Plus, there are so many highly specific variants thereof, especially for Space Marines, it just raises more questions). The highly specific, gothic inspired Science Fantasy of 40K is also just a lot less familiar to the lay person. But the difference is all the more stark when comparing Warhammer Fantasy to Age of Sigmar. Because for all they have in common, the one zigs where they other zags. AoS certainly does a lot to explore alternative fantasy concepts, and create new expressions of old fantasy races. But while this makes them visually and conceptually distinct, that also makes it difficult for a newbie to Warhammer to grasp immediately. How can a person who only knows Dracula to understand what an Ossiarch Bonereaper is? What's a Fyreslayer? Wait, the Idoneth Deepkin AREN'T just mermaids? I must be clear: of course it's possible for a new person to have all these armies _explained_ to them. The issue is that the familiarity of the old tropes made it easy to jump on. You already basically know how normal dwarves work. Here's an army of normal dwarves, go nuts. Many original AoS factions are weird in an unfamiliar way. Not bad, but not what a bog standard Fantasy Enjoyer was expecting when they got curious about fantasy wargames. They don't fit the mental image, and seem to resist conforming to it. When you hear "fallen heroes ascended into heavenly warriors", you'd probably think some kind of angels. Not...Space Marines in fantasy. If you're even aware of what a Space Marine is. Again, how much explaining and diagrams is a newbie Warhammer fan going to need to wrap their head around the Ossiarch Bonereapers? And is this really going to inspire visceral interest in them, in the same way the Tomb Kings would? All you need to say is "the mummy faction", and the new fan is going to know immediately whether or not they want to play Tomb Kings. They "get" Tomb Kings on the spot, whether having them described or seeing the models. The strongest of AoS's new factions, and the ones that attract attention, are the ones that, even when doing their own thing, are easy to grok. Kharadron Overlords are certainly a departure from normal dwarves, but "steampunk sky dwarves" is a powerful mental image that makes you want to know more. And the Nighthaunt are just sublime. Just tell a person they're "the ghost faction", and show them their models. They'll know if they want to play Nighthaunt on the spot. One big misstep with AoS is taking many of the "vanilla" fantasy armies from Warhammer Fantasy, and sticking them all in one army. And Cities of Sigmar doesn't really get much attention, much less stand out. They're a clearing house for all the old model ranges GW don't want to get rid of outright, because it would lose a touchstone for new players (and old players), but don't care enough to refresh. (At least not until The Old World, where all bets are off). None of the distinct factions get room to breathe in CoS. They barely have their own lore or cultural identity. What should be the onboarding part of AoS is kind of an afterthought.

40k does have the cooler aesthetics (still love "renaissance with lion chickens" tho), but over time I started to greatly prefer Fantasy over it. Agreed on every single point of yours, particularily scale and character morality, but I think the biggest thing for me is tone. I'm a sucker for small-scale, common people stuff, and a setting where anyone who's not a named character is working 25 hours a day at the Baby Meatgrinderum, where every single story has to take place in a warzone or else the guys that memorize bolter pattern cartridge sizes get bored, and everyone is a murderous sociopath except for like five named characters (four of which are dead) is something I've come to hate. Fantasy is still dark, don't get me wrong, but you can actually point at people you'd hang out with and places where it'd be at least fine to live in, while in 40k any pleasure/civilized world we get to see is being annihilated and Ultramar is attacked so often no one could actually live a halfway decent life there - and it'll never change because that's the point of the setting. Warhammer Fantasy had hope, and that's what made it matter.

Also chaos is an actual threat in fantasy.

It's not even up for debate. No skaven in 40k, ergo fantasy is the winner.

The thing i love of fantasy is the mix of fantasy, history and different flavors of fantasy. On one side i love how history and fantasy mix, as someone who loves fantasy and history its like the best mix ever, but on the other side, you can get any flavor of fantasy, from high fantasy with the elves, spooky druidic with wood elves, swashbuckler with tilea or stalia and even some egyptian mummies or alien lizards. And because everything is soo entangled with history or cultures, every blank space that wasn't filled you can just pick a book of history and fill it, want some tomb king adventure but there is not much written about them? what about add some egyptian social systems or administrations and you are building tomb kings in a sense that makes sense.

The big reason I’ve always liked fantasy more is because of the great lore and characters. I remember as a young pre-teen reading about EVERY fantasy character. I didn’t care what faction it was, I had to learn about them. And the factions as a whole. Then I got into the novels…and fell in love even more. 40k for me always seems to be in a constant circle of having to outdo itself by being more grim dark, more evil, more science, more space marines, and then more space marines. I feel like when I’ve read about one space marine, I’ve read them all. One drukhari is the same as the others, one ork is no different than another, etc. it’s all just….boring. Fantasy just seems to be more approachable, but once you get into the lore, you can go as deep as you want. Plus goblin fanatics/night goblins.

To your point on the smaller scale providing a sense of drama, I think another aspect of that where WHF is a world where everyone must cohabitate with each other. That proximity creates more drama, intrigue, and motives. In 40k, a lot of the Chaos forces are lurking around or within the Eye of Terror. Sure it creates a random looming series of threats and tension, but it's unseen and at a distance. An abstract threat, if you will, more often than not. Whereas Skaven? Those rat bastards could be lurking in any Altdorf sewer, Dwarf underway, or ruined settlement for years before anyone finds out that it's too late.

warhammer fantasty is amazing. i am only more interested in 40k lore because of the end times. ad yeah, 40k can be described as science fantasy, like how star wars is just a lost prince that rescues a princess from the dark knight who works for the evil wizard

The floor is higher for 40k, the setting is more unique & has very distinct themes. Most of the factions when they come out were very visually distinct and recognisable. A lot of fantasy could just be confused for another fantasy universe. However the ceiling is much higher in fantasy, it's stories based on its characters are much more appealing. And as you said, it's much smaller in scope so things feel more detailed and alive in each section.

About the chaos gods, they’re gods in both settings. In 40K the emperor can be argued to A. Have known how the warp works and was hoping to destroy the powers of the chaos gods by preventing their worship, or B. Was always planning to ascend to godhood himself at some point to fight the chaos gods on equal terms.

Tbh i just like Fantasy more than 40k because i like its more historically adjacent theme. Something about "almost real history but with room for creativity" is just so cool to me.

The reason I love Warhammer fantasy more than 40k is that the mortal chaos designs are more unique imo. The humans dedicated to specific chaos gods in particular are so cool compared to their chaos marine counterparts that just look like pimped out normal marines. Putrid blightkings are my favorite kit of any Warhammer setting for this reason. That plus skaven are more fun than tyrranids.

PNW: "Warhammer Fantasy is better than 40k!" Me: "TO THE KING! TO THE KING!"

I will take you up on the opinion part of why i like the setting I chose! I am mostly new to the Warhammer world, both fantasy and 40k, but i always find myself more partial to the 40k part due to one small detail...The technology. The overall ridiculous scale plus the sci-fi feel of they try to encapsulate just adds to me in the technological department, what with their meteor artillery, several planet-whiping exterminatus methods, zany weapons from all factions(but mostly orks) and its just good fun! As well as the super soldiers of humanity, the elven power rangers called aspect warriors, cyborg british mushrooms and the list goes on. The way the mix and match with the fantasy archetypes and the sci fi setting, its just awesome (ik totally valid points being made here xD). That's all honestly...Oh and one more thing, i am also new to your channel got recommended to you a few weeks back and i love the comedic but informative explanations. Keep up the good work! 😁

Spicy Take: The only races I like in the Warhammer 40K universe are the Tau because they're the most morally ethical and the only real good guys and the Orks because they're the only ones who are happy and having a great time while everyone else is miserable.

I tend to agree. In 40k the individual doesn't matter. Hell, 99 percent of humanity is doomed to either be worked to death in a factory, or die in the imperial guard. In the fantasy setting, people matter. A farm peasant can become an efficient hunter of beast men, a vampire can prevent an end of the world event, a dwarf can slay every eldritch horror under the sun, and a thief can become a mighty Hammer of Ulric. The storied lives of people can have an actual impact on the world.

Well said. Skaven and Lizardmen are also a big reason for me.

the biggest issue with 40K to me is scale it's difficult for 90% of things to matter in 40k. If it were to blow up a continent in fantasy i would be a avengers level threat, in 40K that is not even worth note its so hard to make a 40k threat FEEL like a threat without a level of absurdity, like to scaleu up propotionally someone would have to blow up a solar system. How would you even fight that? thats the problem

It’s actually possible to take fantasy seriously unlike 40k Also it has an awesome comprehensive game

For me, it's about fifty-fifty. I like 40k's factions and themes, moreso than Fantasy's. But I also love a lot more of Fantasy's characters and individual stories than the factions as a whole. And Age of Sigmar can stay in the corner and think about what it's done a little longer, before I warm to it.

That ending was incredible. And to top it off, you named it "Tongue in Cheek".

I completely agree! It all started with lord of the rings and I was hooked on high fantasy ever since!

Using Reikland footage as your backdrop for why Warhammer Fantasy is so amazing was literal perfecrion, by the way.

I absolutely love Warhammer Fantasy, probably my favorite fantasy setting apart from Elder Scrolls. There are so many little interesting tidbits of lore aside from the general stuff that just makes it amazing. Just look up Gazul, objectively the best Dwarf Ancestor God, minor shit like that is cool af.

Even though the setting is now gone. Its nice people still remember and talk about it. RIP warhammer fantasy and I spit on GW for blowing it up.

Agree strongly with your point about scale. Also, I very much appreciated the use of tracks from Age of Mythology in the video!

Just wanted to point out that sci-fi doesn't necessarily HAVE to be set in space, I've noticed many people disregard Earthbound settings as "true sci-fi" because there are no spaceships or hundreds of planets. I personally prefer small scale sci-fi settings or ones that don't even feature aliens but rather mutants or new terrestrial organisms. For example System Shock 2 is an amazing example of a sci-fi that looks like it's a space scale sci-fi but it's just humanity vs an AI in space, and the best part is that the supposed aliens were just mutated creatures from Earth that ended up on a foreign planet which fooled everyone into classifying them as first contact aliens. I love that concept! There's also the Resident Evil franchise with a variety of enemies and settings that rival some space operas. People should stop associating sci-fi with space and space opera, nothing beats the up close and personal of a single planet/environment conflict.

I missed the chance to get into Warhammer Fantasy as it ended a few years before I found out about Warhammer. It seemed really cool and had some amazing models. Hopefully when they make Old World I’ll get some of the models and make a decent army.

I was introduced to 40K before Fantasy but I started seeing stuff about it soon after. The whole thing of them being two universes was never really made clear to me until a year or so ago, but I think they both have their cool and redeeming qualities that make them enjoyable.

Just found this channel, it’s really good. Informative without being boring, funny without trying too hard.

The fan base.There’s a big gap in the friendliness between the people who like rat people, and the people obsessed with German WWII tanks

I’ve gotten into debates with friends of mine who prefer 40K while I prefer Fantasy. I have made similar points but this video has made me feel validated and I appreciate the effort you have put in. You are polite in expressing your beliefs and I thank you for posting this for people like me to appreciate a like mind.