Why We Can't Think Biblically About It: Women In Ministry part 1

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Mike Winger

Mike Winger

Күн бұрын

For years I've refused to answer the question about women in ministry. Because I worried I might be wrong and was fearful of how big of an impact my teaching can have in the life of another. I take that issue very seriously.
I spent the last few months doing an in depth research project on women in ministry. My goal was to read the best egalitarian scholars on the topic and see if I might change my position. To be totally open with you, I actually WANTED to become egalitarian. That may sound strange to some but I'm just being honest about my own motivations. Now that my research is close to done, I'm going to present you with the "Women in Ministry" series; a thorough and systematic study of the topic, looking at all relevant biblical passages, historical research, linguistic studies and philosophical concerns, interacting with the most recent scholarship on the issue (and there is a lot of it). This will be a somewhat exhaustive series to go over everything the Bible teaches on the topic and engage in all the important debates you will want to know about. Each video will cover different issues/passages of Scripture and I'll try to present the content in a way that helps you make informed decisions for yourself and not just to parrot me.
But I'm not interested being one of those people who pretends they don't have their own opinions on the topic. So, after months of focused research, here are my general conclusions; which I will go on to support with great detail over the next 10 videos. I think egalitarian views (which hold there are simply no role differences related to authority between men and women in the government of the church) are obviously false. I mean that I went into this study hoping I'd see really strong and thoughtful cases for egalitarian views from top scholars and I saw, over and over again, insufficient evidence, poor reasoning, inconsistent positions and bad Bible study practices. I don't say ANY of that as a way of slapping at the sincerity or good will of those scholars. I think many of these scholars are strongly committed to Jesus and are my genuine brothers and sisters in Christ. But, as a result of studying this topic in detail, hoping to change my own mind and focusing on the work of egalitarian scholars, I am actually far more confidently complementarian than I was before.
However, I have changed my mind on some important issues and would consider my self a "soft complementarian" who holds that the biblical role of "elder" is reserved for men but that women have been FAR too restricted in other ways because of clumsy and incomplete views of complementarians, and sometimes simply because Christians aren't quite sure where to draw the lines so they are overly cautious and unnecessarily limiting to women (and often to themselves). What I'm saying here is that I agree with many egalitarian complaints about abuses, restrictions and general disrespect toward women that has been too common in complementarian circles. I've seen it first hand many times and I think Scripture offers us needed correction.
So, I am rather firm in saying egalitarian interpretations are generally flawed but that complementarians have much to refine and even remove from their own views, though the biblical core remains quite sound. I offer the above explanation as I introduce this series simply because I respect your intelligence and want to be as open as possible with you all.
In today's video I'll walk through the biggest reason why I'm not egalitarian as I discuss philosophical beliefs that egalitarians often bring into the debate which make it impossible for them to be open to following the Bible if it leads toward complementarian views. I'll try to apply this standard fairly on both sides and set a tone for the debate that refuses to use polemics, ethics or philosophy in a way that taints our opinions before we approach the biblical text and ask "what should I think about this?"
Here's the playlist for ALL the videos in this series (more added as I make them) • Why We Can't Think Bib...
You can also find the videos and my notes freely available on my website. BibleThinker.org

Пікірлер: 5 300
@MikeWinger
@MikeWinger 2 жыл бұрын
Dr. Groothuis is pronounced “Growt-hice” (I think) I’m sorry I got it wrong!
@luclockhart3503
@luclockhart3503 2 жыл бұрын
We forgive you mike
@BrandonEsparza04
@BrandonEsparza04 2 жыл бұрын
I would also love your perspective on the passage about men and women prophesying in the end times. This verse is used in my church as a supporting verse for women in ministry. Hopefully you will cover it!
@elitabilities8269
@elitabilities8269 2 жыл бұрын
I was baptized as I knew that Jesus Christ forgives all my sins but at that time was living in sin but wanted to get out of it and many months later by the power of Holy Spirit I was out of it also I thought that in God there will be no problems in my life but after growing in Christ I found that there will be problems in my life but Holy Spirit will guide me and help me . So my question is that shall I be rebaptised due to sin at that time and incomplete theology ?
@dr.k.t.varughese3151
@dr.k.t.varughese3151 2 жыл бұрын
@@elitabilities8269 If you are not baptized by a holy disciple of Christ you will be partaking in the sins and wrongdoings of the Pastor in twice the measure. Hence, check the man who baptize you for: is his spirit from God ? Does he continue in the word of Jesus according to John 8:31? Is his righteousness above that of Pharisees and scribes according to Mathew 5:19?Is he recognized by Jesus as His trained disciple according to John 17:16?
@wolraad
@wolraad 2 жыл бұрын
Groothuis - in Afrikaans, or Dutch, would be Bighouse, or Greathouse. Phonetically I don't think you should worry too much since it would be like asking an English speaker to pronounce French surnames absolutely correctly every time. Groot - as in the now famous "I am Groot" from the marvel movies, or a tree root, would have been fine, and Huis - phonetically - like army "base" but with the "h" - so Groothase and you are there. Either way - great job!
@alisachilders
@alisachilders 2 жыл бұрын
Great work, Mike! Really looking forward to listening to the rest of the series.
@richardgordon-smith239
@richardgordon-smith239 2 жыл бұрын
Hey Alisa, nice to hear Mike's respect for you and your ministry. I am very blessed by your content. Please keep going!!! Love in Christ!
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I recently posted this to Mike but haven't received a response yet - you might be interested: Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you'll fall short if you don't first address a major problem at the start of this series. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting wives to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, the contradictions between those verses and the rest of the bible are instantly resolved. All that remains is to properly exegete a few tangential verses that have been twisted and/or misinterpreted to prop up this faulty doctrine which subjugates and silences half the members of the Body of Christ and causes such damage to the church and to many innocent people who are simply trying to obey God's call on their lives.
@jennysims1910
@jennysims1910 2 жыл бұрын
Me too
@JohnMackeyIII
@JohnMackeyIII 2 жыл бұрын
WHOAH WHOAH WHOAH.... NO ONE I MEAN NO COULD TOUCH THE ARK... EVERYONE WHO TOUCHED IT DIED..
@jeffreyyoungblood7438
@jeffreyyoungblood7438 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 absolutely, as well a female apostle is mentioned in the NT long with women prophesying, teaching a man, and let's not forget Deborah led the whole nation of Israel!
@justinharrell327
@justinharrell327 2 жыл бұрын
"You cannot bypass the Bible." - That's the takeaway for me. I find in most issues where there is debate, people are doing just that....bypassing the Bible and appealing to some other authority.
@andrewbradley3305
@andrewbradley3305 2 жыл бұрын
I wonder if these "Egalitarians" (funny term for saying my ideas are better then Gds) have ever read Titus or if they just skip that epistle. Paul clearly outlines the requirements for leadership
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
@@miikatmp5873The mistranslated verses I cited are the very backbone of those who argue against women in ministry and leadership roles and if he didn't mention the error in this first video, you can be certain they won't be mentioned in the other 9 - most likely he's completely unaware of it. And what "paradox" are you referring to?
@mysonsmom9754
@mysonsmom9754 2 жыл бұрын
@@miikatmp5873 I reported Joan. I'm tired of seeing her/his post on every single thread as if that opinion is canonized text!
@robertgomez7409
@robertgomez7409 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 that was a fair take, interesting. Everyone bashing you, please forgive them.
@dahelmang
@dahelmang 2 жыл бұрын
This sort of series is why I trust Mike so much. He is not afraid to change his mind to agree with Scripture. That is where we all should try to be.
@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr
@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr Жыл бұрын
he still thinks the sun doesn't go around the earth
@yury2749
@yury2749 Жыл бұрын
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr see yourself as the center, and all moves around you. Saying this moves around that is kind of absurd. Everything goes around everything. And the math works out the same, just more complex, depending.
@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr
@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr Жыл бұрын
@@yury2749 And there it is. The philosophy of why you don't want the earth at the center. It's not humble enough. Nevermind that it's the truth! We must avoid it at all costs, philosophically. Edwin Hubble agrees! No matter how convoluted, never allow the earth to be at the center. That implies a God after all.
@yury2749
@yury2749 Жыл бұрын
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr what is at the center is a matter of perspective. I am not sure I follow your meaning exactly. But we are putting grammar onto entities that follow something far higher and more tangible than physics equations. I am at the center, but I do my best to orbit christ.
@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr
@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr Жыл бұрын
@Thomas B It's true, I think I saw a quote by Einstein that it would be equally correct to say the sun goes around the earth as the earth goes around the sun. It's basically like they're admitting it. Even in their convoluted theories, the sun can still be going around the earth! And it is.
@Meg_219
@Meg_219 8 ай бұрын
Pastor Mike, as a Christian woman who has very much struggled with these issues (wanting to be egalitarian as well) I can’t tell you how incredibly thankful I am for your voice presenting a loving, thorough, Bible-centered, nuanced approach to these issues. This series is SO helpful and I know it’s not the popular subject to tackle but it has really helped me understand these issues for myself. Thank you!!!
@matthewdyer2926
@matthewdyer2926 4 ай бұрын
The Bible isn’t nuanced in this issue; it’s clear, plain, and understandable. The “nuance” comes out when people don’t like what God says on a given subject.
@susanbarackman-artist7670
@susanbarackman-artist7670 3 ай бұрын
Have you ever been to a site called Tru 3:16-the Eden Podcast. It trues up the scriptures from Gen 3:16 and gives lots of correct info about the genders and what God truly meant for men and women to be. very enlightening and eye opening.
@Meg_219
@Meg_219 3 ай бұрын
@@matthewdyer2926 Are you disagreeing with the approach Mike Winger has taken on this issue? I used the word “nuanced” to describe his methodological approach of examining all sides and carefully pointing back to scripture. I didn’t use the word “nuance” to describe the Biblical teaching itself. I’m not sure if you understood my comment.
@matthewdyer2926
@matthewdyer2926 3 ай бұрын
@@Meg_219 You may be right; I could have misunderstood. The word “nuance” has somewhat recently become the mantra of the evangelical Left, being referenced whenever any plain Biblical truth comes into conflict with the zeitgeist and needs to be explained away. Most hot-button Biblical issues today aren’t all that nuanced; nuance is merely injected in order to muddy the clear waters and shift opinions away from Biblical clarity, toward popular opinion. Egalitarianism versus Biblical patriarchy is one of the issues which often receives this treatment. If you didn’t mean it in this way, then I retract my statement.
@Meg_219
@Meg_219 3 ай бұрын
@@matthewdyer2926 Thank you. I appreciate that- that’s not what I meant. I am not on the evangelical left, nor am I a progressive Christian, nor am I even egalitarian (though I admit I used to *want to be). I just think it’s important for us as Christians to still be careful about labeling people based on their use of a word (like “nuanced”) before asking more specific questions about what they meant. As a pretty theologically conservative Christian, I’m sure I would agree with you on many things the Bible is very clear about and I agree that progressive Christians will try to add nuance where there is none, but I do think there is value in taking an approach that seeks to accurately represent the other side (as Mike Winger does) and then pointing back to scripture. As we grow more and more polarized and “us vs them” in our culture, this approach seems to happening less and less, so I’m thankful that Winger tries to bridge that gap by being gracious to each “side” of an issue while still boldly defending Biblical truth.
@mimhahn
@mimhahn 2 жыл бұрын
Can't put into words how refreshing it is to hear a pastor that doesn't submit to culture. I know it's certainly not the easy road! Thank you. 🙏
@jumperstartful
@jumperstartful 2 жыл бұрын
Does the Bible teach that the present culture’s belief overturn the word of God? The majority of the Roman Catholic Churches beliefs are based on tradition and not the word of God. What sparked Luther’s reformation?
@odio3965
@odio3965 2 жыл бұрын
Two things to remember: only dead fish swim with the current, and the only direction all the easy paths lead is down.
@mchevalier-seawell4438
@mchevalier-seawell4438 2 жыл бұрын
Look deeper into translation choices of words. And, no,being a second class citizen is not ok. I don’t believe Paul believed it, but the translators who worshipped at Aristotle’s feet did. Translators can really put a spin on things and so can taking things out of context. God did not make women second class, men did that. Like the word “ helpmeet” in Genesis translated “ally” when discussing King Hiram, King. David’s friend. Why isn’t he a little helpmeet? You were wrong about blacks and slavery and you are wrong about this too. I will join no church rather than be a member of yours.
@Matthew.._
@Matthew.._ Жыл бұрын
@@jumperstartful the comment was that culture is not the final word. Me must conform our ways, and our views to truth ( Gods wisdom ). The Catholic Church was not and still in many ways IS not in truth. Reformation came from a biblical and true analysis of the word of God.
@BibleU777
@BibleU777 Жыл бұрын
Culture for almost all history has been very restrictive of women. To avoid "bowing to culture" one must abandon this entitlement mentality for males. God is no respecter of persons, and judges by the heart rather than the flesh.
@Sirkento
@Sirkento 2 жыл бұрын
"This video series is for people who want to submit to God, so that's the price of entry." Such a beautiful statement! Come seeking God not justification for your veiws. Sooooo good!! I'm mostly complementarian but I am here to learn and grow and unafraid to follow the truth the best I can. Both sides can do this, it is just a simple decision of your heart to trust God more than yourself. Thank you Pastor Mike!!
@glennbaker7914
@glennbaker7914 2 жыл бұрын
Ah there is the rub, self - justification we are often very good at it, and it gives us a warm feeling to be right.
@Sirkento
@Sirkento 2 жыл бұрын
@@glennbaker7914 what does that mean lol?
@jaspermartin7444
@jaspermartin7444 2 жыл бұрын
Control freaks always say that ... And it's not god who keeps wanting to make a hierarchy of humans. That would be men, who want to be on top while women are on the bottom. Anytime you see anyone telling women they need to sit down and shut up while the men are not, that is from the devil. Repent now, cos you gonna burn. The problem is, there's only bible. Yet so many different churches have a billion different interpretations and they're all claiming they alone have the One True Voice of God in their ear. If all of you can't come to an agreement, then... something is wrong with "christians".
@iMidnightStorm
@iMidnightStorm 2 жыл бұрын
@@Sirkento It means that it only feels true to you, because you want it to be true. Humans are very much subject to bias, and not everyone has the same experiences as you.
@Sirkento
@Sirkento 2 жыл бұрын
@@iMidnightStorm so by that logic you are basically saying there is no empirical truth and no point in striving towards it. That doesn't make any logical sense so this sounds more like an attempt to evade a knowledge of the truth, which everyone has the right to do with their life. But unfortunately it will not change the empirical truth and at some point everyone will have to decide what they want to believe and who they want to follow. There is a lot of Truth to the idea that we were very good at self-justification and invent ideas via bias but it does not exclude us from attempting to follow the ideals set before us nor do our biases in any way affect empirical truths. The point of what I was saying is God is out there and he loves us and he wants us to genuinely follow him but it is up to the discipline and humility of each person individually to decide to try to follow what he says and not just follow the things that sound good and make them feel good. If you don't already have a relationship with Jesus you should hit him up; there is literally nothing else that you were made better to do in all of creation and there is nothing that can ever adequately replace your need to have an eternal relationship with our creator. As a final note I don't care how bad you've been, what you've done wrong in secret that no one is found out about oh, what you have thought about or how badly you may look at yourself; you will never be too far gone to turn around and embrace your savior and accept his forgiveness except after the end of your life.
@WholeBibleWithGeorgeCrabb
@WholeBibleWithGeorgeCrabb Жыл бұрын
It's not even about complementarian versus egalitarian views. It is about What God Says through his word. Excellent teaching! I recommended the rest of our elder board to watch this series.
@user-iz8np3vv4i
@user-iz8np3vv4i Жыл бұрын
Deborah, Judges 4.
@user-fqobttl
@user-fqobttl Жыл бұрын
What about when the women know what's in The Word, and the men, not only, do not know The Word, but have given themselves over to passions and demons. Can women gather wheat on the Sabbath, or not? This is not rhetorical; I am really asking your opinion.
@metapolitikgedanken612
@metapolitikgedanken612 Жыл бұрын
Who was the first 'egalitarian'?
@rockmusicvideoreviewer896
@rockmusicvideoreviewer896 7 ай бұрын
How can you guys believe in this book written by cavemen? There is no more proof that god exist than Zeus or Santa Clause. Time to grow up and use your brain
@elizabethpole2305
@elizabethpole2305 6 ай бұрын
Equal but different has never worked. Society will end up valuing one set of skills over the ever. Jesus in his ministry had many women included in all roles
@cryptojihadi265
@cryptojihadi265 Жыл бұрын
"There is a large debate among scholars" I've always said it takes at least a masters, if not a PHD to figure out how to get the Bible to mean the exact opposite of what it actually says.
@erinsymone1645
@erinsymone1645 Жыл бұрын
yep. it's fascinating how many "scholars" and debate it takes to understand god's "perfect" word. almost like it's just a bunch of word salad that you have to push through mental gymnastics to get it to say what you want it to say.
@donovanloreman
@donovanloreman Жыл бұрын
I have a history of putting "scholars" (biblical and not) in their place with facts. It seems we have gotten away with critical thinking in school and just straight indoctrination of the teacher believes.
@Shakiahjprod
@Shakiahjprod Жыл бұрын
No there's debate because people who study it to the point of the history and context starts to take place. Or the context within language. And you and I having not studied that never had to look beyond that, same way people back in the day didn't have an education and you had to trust your pastor OR go learn... Crazy ik
@cryptojihadi265
@cryptojihadi265 Жыл бұрын
@@Shakiahjprod except Paul makes it very clear it has to do with the creative order and the inherent weakness in the nature of man or woman. So those arguments are independent of culture and the times. But yes, culture and societal norms of the time is the argument they like to use, which is completely inappropriate in the actual context of what was written. The complete disaster we are witnessing in society and the church as we've accepted the feminist ideology of our times is proof of the validity of the text and the dishonesty of their "intellectual" arguments. But like l said, they have to use such dishonest arguments to make the Biblical text to mean the opposite of what it actually says.
@jacobroel
@jacobroel Жыл бұрын
I laugh because it's true 🤣
@matthewpalm2483
@matthewpalm2483 2 жыл бұрын
"Now that I'm thinking about it I might make the whole world angry.." The price of serving truth. Thank you Mike.
@dcw56
@dcw56 2 жыл бұрын
Yes, sometimes putting truth on the line, hard and firm, it is very difficult for some to take. It is complicated by our current world view now, too. Everyone has an axe to grind, and almost everyone can find an argument in certain places of The Holy Bible. We have to take it to heart: Who Are We Arguing With? Can we make the stars? Can we stop the tides. We are not "all that and a bag of chips"! We were given breath as a gift from God our Father, no matter what we think or how we decide what the plainly written word of God really says. If you read the Bible long enough, you are going to get your feelings hurt, whether woman or man. When we find that place, where we feel like arguing with our Heavenly Father, that is the place we should study harder. HE is never wrong. WE are His creation. We need to keep in mind that we did not hang the stars. They are just there, and what's more is, they are there at the pleasure of God Almighty. God bless you mightily, my brother! Dean
@wiznup
@wiznup 2 жыл бұрын
Or maybe scriptures have been interpreted through the biased lens of men? There are two major camps on this, and biblical scholars do not agree. That should tell us something. Also, most of the men doing the pontificating on women in ministry are coming at it through the lens of marriage which is actually the correct context. But!There are also single women in the church and many are staying away because of the entrenched patriarchy in the church. They are more free to use their gifts and talents outside the church than they are within. Shameful! Their head is also Jesus Christ, not a husband.
@dcw56
@dcw56 2 жыл бұрын
@@wiznup This seems to be a sore spot for you, sister. Jesus is the husband of all the church. We need to get that out in the open. After that, we recognize women leaders in the Church, such as Phoebe, Tabatha (Dorcus), Ruth, DEBRA, Ester, and many others. Why not include them in your opinions? Did they escape you, or are you keying in on the obvious intonation that "God" is "Father", a male figure? Jesus was a male. Moses was a male. King David was a male. Oh, wait... Mary (Jesus mom) was a female. Mary of Magdelene was female. Junius was female. Elizabeth was female, and so on. Don't get hung up on this, my sister. The second human being ever made was female. God is not very concerned with how we use the bathroom or if we wear a dress or jeans.
@KasiJayPeil
@KasiJayPeil 2 жыл бұрын
I loved that line 🤣
@suzannecarman8357
@suzannecarman8357 2 жыл бұрын
It’s going to take faith,patience, and focus to wade through this. I’m very grateful for the help. The issue can be so divisive, but I want truth and God to be glorified. Thank you.
@musanetesakupwanya1050
@musanetesakupwanya1050 2 жыл бұрын
Man, that whole "bypassing the Bible" concept, by itself has challenged me so much!!! WOW!! This really helps think about this topic in a more measured way, cos it instantly picks out where our sources come from.
@sh20130
@sh20130 2 жыл бұрын
Yes this I agree with! I see this a lot with some peoples opinions on how/whether the Holy Spirit works today and some views clearly bypass the Bible and it’s sad. I pray God helps us see the right way!
@darrenwithers3628
@darrenwithers3628 2 жыл бұрын
We shouldn't bypass the bible.. we should support slavery and mass genocide.
@MicheMoffatt
@MicheMoffatt Жыл бұрын
I am a complimentarion evangelical Christian, and I feel the bible clearly states that men and women have different roles - I am glad that you are discussing all info available and keeping it scripture based. I feel that those who are liberal egalitarian are too easily swayed to then become "progressive" Christians that are not scripture based,. I am looking forward to all of this series. I loved the whole head covering video x
@qesther1241
@qesther1241 10 ай бұрын
Why women can’t be a head pastor and teach men? Because men won’t listen or hear anything they say. GOD knows men are animals and no matter what that woman wears while she is speaking men will always be thinking of se$ regarding her. Her hair, her dress, her eyes, her lips, men will see all of that and not even remember what that woman was saying. 😂 it’s just life and humans.
@chevy4x466
@chevy4x466 9 ай бұрын
I would like to know what Paul meant in head covering as well
@paullaymon5746
@paullaymon5746 9 ай бұрын
Egalitarianism is not a liberal view. It has been in practice since the early to mid 1800”s since the second great awakening in American history. Charles G. Finley could not by any stretch be called a liberal.
@Faith_and_Thought
@Faith_and_Thought 9 ай бұрын
The languages used is certainly very post-modernist sounding, especially when it comes to the topic of abuse. Lived experience is king, and any power structure/hierarchy is a system of oppression. I'm interested to see what some of their other arguments are and why Mike takes a "soft-complementarian stance," and not, I suppose "fully complementarian," but so far the egalitarian view appears to be more inspired by left-wing ideologies than biblical theology.
@branver1172
@branver1172 9 ай бұрын
@@Faith_and_Thought I agree about egalitarianism and postmodernism, but I also see the thick comps as being influenced by these things. Sure, Comps give the power more firmly to the man, but they also see gender as two monolithic identity groups who interact largely through power dynamics. This is straight out of critical theory. You’ll also see many comps saying something is true because they * felt* it was true. Piper is a pro at this, but others do it too. As far as felt experience goes, many ladies find they are laughed at, mocked and ignored if they say they’ve been abused. Many conservative men see this as a “feminist tactic” and refuse to listen. Many men believe all ladies are controlling and out to usurp authority and therefore should not be believed. They also feel the abused woman is “proving” feminism right, and they must sweep her experience under the rug and shut her up. It’s all about winning the culture war. As Kevin DeYoung put it, “Ladies stop talking about abuse. You’re making the feminists win!” Many of these ladies are only heard and helped by others who have also been abused. I think this is why they talk about lived experience. Doesn’t mean truth is subjective, like the postmoderns mean. Just that we can often be self centered and not hear the other person.
@rebeccawilkinson1846
@rebeccawilkinson1846 11 ай бұрын
11:08 I’ve put off listening to this series partly because I wasn’t sure I was ready to hear a long discussion about what I can and cannot do. I grew up complementatian and still hold those views but life has presented challenges to the simplistic form that I was taught. Every question (plus a couple) in the first ten minutes describes my adult life. Thank you for understanding the heart of the question and for your attitude in approaching it. I look forward to reaping the benefit of all your study.
@charleswolfe8764
@charleswolfe8764 2 жыл бұрын
As to the question of WHY so much of the Church doesn't reason biblically about this issue, I'm reminded of a quote from Upton Sinclair: "It is difficult to get someone to understand something when their salary depends on them not understanding it."
@Michael_the_Servant
@Michael_the_Servant 2 жыл бұрын
The fact that Upton Sinclair is being quoted to make an argument on something about the Bible is ironic. It is better just to quote 1 Timothy 6:10 and leave Sinclair’s works to unbelievers.
@charleswolfe8764
@charleswolfe8764 2 жыл бұрын
@@Michael_the_Servant I'm not making the argument. Mr. Winger made the argument. I just said I was reminded this truism
@Michael_the_Servant
@Michael_the_Servant 2 жыл бұрын
Charles Wolfe, I wouldn’t include Sinclair with Truth.
@ipanesm
@ipanesm 2 жыл бұрын
@@Michael_the_Servant are you implying that anythink that Sinclair ever said cannot be truthful or used as an argument? shouldnt factual things or ideas be independent of its creator?
@Michael_the_Servant
@Michael_the_Servant 2 жыл бұрын
Ignacio P., let what is factual be factual, but Upton Sinclair’s works are ripe with lies. “The Jungle” actually lead to a federal investigation and report that refuted so many of the claims he wrote as facts. His works are merely fiction propaganda to support the agenda of his beliefs. So, you have bad beliefs, lack of morals, and false writings. Why would you ever reference him or his works?
@daviddufty9759
@daviddufty9759 2 жыл бұрын
Hey Mike, Thanks so much for the video. I am an egalitarian who used to be a complementarian. My experience of this debate thus far has largely been one of feeling isolated. When I was a complementarian - people told me that I REALLY believed what I believed not from my reading of scripture, but because I was a male chauvinist who wanted women to be oppressed. Once my studies led me to become egalitarian (it looks like you are going to be covering the same passages and arguments - so I'm all ears for what you have to say), I found that complementarians told me that I REALLY just wanted to bow to the world and I was twisting scripture to do so. I've heard many egalitarians ride off complementarian men as bullies who abuse their wives. I've heard complementarians ride off egalitarian men as wimps who take no responsibility and are door mats for their wives. I was not looking forward to this series as I was worried you would ride off the other side with same strawman arguments as has been done before (particularly on youtube and the internet). I may have come to different conclusions to you (thus far - I reserve the right to be wrong and to change my mind), but I agree with what you said in this video - it was a breath of fresh air on this debate.
@jordandthornburg
@jordandthornburg 2 жыл бұрын
Any one telling you that your complementarían views are because you want to oppress women is spiritually bullying you and is likely not a real follower of Jesus, just to be honest. The other view, I don’t judge motives I just honestly don’t get it. I’ll hear the best arguments out though in due time,
@j-arthur6657
@j-arthur6657 2 жыл бұрын
If women are to be silent in the church and never to exercise authority over a man, then how could one possibly be a pastor and lead a church ??? Lol do you not see the contradiction? God's word says they are to be silent and not have authority, so how could one who is to be silent and never have authority possibly lead a whole church ? Haha END OF DEBATE .
@usptatexaspro9032
@usptatexaspro9032 2 жыл бұрын
@@j-arthur6657 context. When it says women are to be silent in the church it is in a gentilic context. Women were interrupting services by asking questions during the sermon - something common in pagan circles where there was a conversation between congregants and the oracle. Basically, Paul is saying, if you have a question, ask it at home or after the service. Also, the word for "authority" in the Greek, particularly in it usage in the Greco-Roman world, on top of the entire clause suggests "abuse of authority" not any authority whatsoever. Go deeper than just the English translation. Remember, the English translation is an interpretation of Scripture. A translation team actually sat down and tried their best to put a descriptive and large language like Greek into a bland and small language like English. Often times the thought in the translation becomes lost. Knowing the biblical languages is essential. So don't start knocking egalitarians, they have an excellent argument.
@jonsealartist
@jonsealartist 2 жыл бұрын
@@j-arthur6657 Man… I’m a complimentarian and you’re either embarrassing us or not really a Christian and intentionally trying to sow discord among believers.
@usptatexaspro9032
@usptatexaspro9032 2 жыл бұрын
@@j-arthur6657 you clearly never read my comment, just what you wanted to try and prove your point. You're insulting to others on this thread. We're trying to have a civil and Christlike convo and you're just bashing everyone and laughing. I'm done here. This isn't edifying. It's people like you who are the reason the church can't have deep conversations. It's just all insults. As a someone who claims Christ you need to heavily look into your own heart before you start criticizing other believers who you basically ignored and didn't even bother to read in their entirety. Basic historical context tells you what is happening here, but you just want to ignore that for the sake of your own argument without even taking notice of it it.
@makaylasauls3671
@makaylasauls3671 Жыл бұрын
Thank you so much! This series is so refreshing! I've grown up around people who have shamed me for not understanding this content, so having someone take the time to go through and answer all of these questions is amazing!
@kayallen6778
@kayallen6778 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for taking on this subject. I am a female and have been in a few different leadership roles, children ministry, women's ministry, youth ministry and outreach. I have been told that I have a gift of teaching and have wanted to study deeper and share what I find so much about God, with others but have struggled so much with both sides of the debate about women in ministry that I have held back. I have a burning desire to share Gods word, but I don't want to be in disobedience to Him either. Thank you for taking the time and going through with the attitude of 'let scripture be scripture.' so I know I can trust as I go through this study with you. Thank you all the way from Australia 🦘🌏
@ljss6805
@ljss6805 Жыл бұрын
Kay, be careful: there's a difference between the Bible original texts and what people interested in misogyny mistranslate. Women in the Bible were appointed to every rank a man was: deacon, priest, bishop, apostle, etc. Women being in ordained ministry *is* Biblical. Think about it: Iounnia was an apostle; Phoebe a deaconness; Mary Magdalene a disciple; and we have several women referred to as "priest" in the female form. And now think of this: the first person to teach the letter of Paul to the Romans was the very same woman who delivered the letter to them: the deaconess Phoebe. In antiquity, delivering a letter meant reading and explaining it. So, if you feel called by God to teach, you're in your Biblical rights to do so.
@deliciouscolours
@deliciouscolours Жыл бұрын
I don't think we can disregard History including Jewish History in this matter. Miriam was mentioned as a leader to the people of Israel alongside Moses and Aaron, Deborah was a Judge appointed by God as a leader of the Jewish people. everyone went to her to be lead, both men and women. Also whi would God give someone a teaching gift if it was for them to be quiet? It's dangerous to pick and chose which Bible texts we look at to weight in on a matter, we don't know the context of Paul's teachings at the time but we do know that God doesn't have a double mind. If He anointed Deborah he can anoint a woman today too, plus He made a donkey talk! How can we ever doubt that He does as he pleases and uses whomever he wants?
@ljss6805
@ljss6805 Жыл бұрын
@@dstv1016 Pretty sure you just don't know Greek. That's her name (you might see it in English as June, Junia, or even Jounias, but the proper way to render it is Iounnia). She is named in Romans 16.7
@ljss6805
@ljss6805 Жыл бұрын
@@dstv1016 I'm a Mexican, but that hardly matters, because I don't need to be an ancient Greek to know Greek. I just needed to study it.
@zerobyte802
@zerobyte802 Жыл бұрын
Bless you, sister. I'm about to watch the rest of this series as well. Starting with the attitude of following God's will is the best foundation. I refused to submit to God out of personal pride but God has humbled me and my life has improved in so many ways. My wife is traditional and I was not living up to my duties as her husband which caused her distress and me dissatisfaction. Now I consider her so much more in everything I do and we're both happier together.
@oliviajones3317
@oliviajones3317 2 жыл бұрын
Mike, thank you so much for tackling this. As a woman, I feel the need for a thoughtful, careful, and comprehensive teaching of this issue. Thank you for being willing to take on the work and push-back to provide the biblical clarity that is severely lacking. Blessings on you and your ministry.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@nikkowood4476
@nikkowood4476 2 жыл бұрын
You said "Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short" He has released only 2 of the 10 videos, if you think he "fell short" when he literally hasnt even touched on 80% of his views, it is obviously because you have your mind made up already.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
@@nikkowood4476 If a glaring translation error isn't resolved before producing even one video about this subject - including this introductory one, it will remain an elephant in the room and undermine anything he ever produces on the subject. The truth is, that when this mistranslation is corrected, the controversy almost instantly ceases, those 2 verses stop contradicting other portions of the bible, and the division ends.
@ryanhoward8694
@ryanhoward8694 2 жыл бұрын
Sadly, there can be harsh divisions even within degrees of complementarianism. I minister with a church that has taken a soft complementarian view (basically, women can do anything but be the preaching/senior minister or an elder), and we have been shunned by all the other churches from our denomination in the area who take very strict complementarian views on this issue. We would love to associate with them, but they don’t want anything to do with us. It’s heartbreaking to see people divide over secondary doctrinal issues. I appreciate your honesty and your heart. I, too, wanted so badly for years to hold an egalitarian view, but I simply couldn’t get around what Scripture says on the issue. I’m looking forward eagerly to the rest of this series!
@ccrow3355
@ccrow3355 2 жыл бұрын
I dont understand why he calls it a secondary issue when he quoted a bunch of people that were coming to conclusions like the bible is in error and that Jesus wasnt the authority while he was on earth. This is not a secondary issue, its a corruption within Christianity that destroys peoples faith.
@ryanhoward8694
@ryanhoward8694 2 жыл бұрын
@@ccrow3355 What some people hold on other issues has nothing to do with this particular issue. That’s a form of “guilt by association” fallacy. There are people with whom I have disagreements on primary issues that I can still affirm are correct on secondary issues. For example, I can agree with Apostate Prophet regarding his critiques of Islam even though he is an atheist.
@tabletmaster291
@tabletmaster291 2 жыл бұрын
@@ccrow3355 so what do you call these people like Ryan Howard? Im curious
@jrconway3
@jrconway3 2 жыл бұрын
@@ccrow3355 Primary issues are about salvation. If your theology on salvation is wrong your basis is completely wrong and you're not a Christian. People can make secondary issues into primary issues but Mike is countering this idea and saying these aren't primary issues and you shouldn't divide so heavily over them, but people tend to do it anyway.
@ccrow3355
@ccrow3355 2 жыл бұрын
​@@tabletmaster291 I dont call him anything. I just think that this is much more serious than people are making it out to be. It is literally destroying churches and peoples faith. This is the way alot of fake Christians infiltrate churches and spread heresy.
@simonchoi7141
@simonchoi7141 2 жыл бұрын
Honestly, the whole idea of what you want to believe really spoke to me on a personal level. Even after just the first 20 minutes of this video, it was quite profound to the point where I felt a little bit called out. Thank You. Also, I appreciate how you emphasize this topic's secondary nature, as it makes everything seem a bit more comfortable at least for me. So often Christian debate gets caught up in things that are not vital to the faith itself, so this distinction is so helpful.
@courtneyb166
@courtneyb166 Жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for investing your time and energy into this series! I am looking forwards to seeing the rest!
@phlaxus5288
@phlaxus5288 2 жыл бұрын
​Mike, besides all the biblical knowledge you share, what im learning from you all the time, is the love you put in to teach these biblical truths. You are doing a great job! Praise the Lord!
@hlokomani
@hlokomani 2 жыл бұрын
Really encouraging to have someone teach biblical truth from a genuine place of love and grace
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@DeutscherGospel
@DeutscherGospel 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 Not true. If you take whole biblical teaching into account, it's clear that even if there is an translation error, it's not possible to get to your assumptions. Please contact the channel owner. Maybe he will do a video answering you points.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
@@DeutscherGospel What "assumptions" are you referring to?
@suzum.9713
@suzum.9713 3 ай бұрын
Agree.
@crjaekel
@crjaekel 2 жыл бұрын
"I want the Bible to breath..." great line. That speaks!!!
@kingdomallegiancepodcast
@kingdomallegiancepodcast 2 жыл бұрын
That was such a great line! I agree 🔥
@LindsayJackel
@LindsayJackel 2 жыл бұрын
Hey! Another Jackel/Jaekel! Hi. I'm in Melbourne, Australia. My Jäckel (Jaeckel) ancestors (Erdmann, and his son Herman), came from Germany (East Prussia, now part of Poland) in the 1840s, to the Barossa Valley, and the town, Tanunda, in the state of South Australia. After his wife, Johanna, died, in the early 1850s, Erdmann moved to Melbourne, in the state of Victoria, with his children, Herman and Louise (pronounced Louisa). He remarried and they had a daughter. Both daughters married Germans. Herman married an English woman, Phoebe Allen, and they had 5 sons and 3 daughters (one died at age 5yo). All the best.
@LindsayJackel
@LindsayJackel 2 жыл бұрын
When I was 22yo I legally changed my surname spelling to "Jaekel" by deed poll. My father wasn't happy! But people did pronounce it correctly: 'jay-kell' and not 'jackal'. 2-3 years later I really got into family history and genealogy and decided to change the spelling back to "Jackel", given that was one of the family lines I was researching.
@Romans8-9
@Romans8-9 2 жыл бұрын
The Bible doesnt need to "breathe"
@crjaekel
@crjaekel 2 жыл бұрын
I think you missed the point. Let the scripture speak is solid.
@annabenson4359
@annabenson4359 Жыл бұрын
Thank you SO MUCH for undertaking this profoundly difficult topic!! I so appreciate your commitment to honoring Scripture and your willingness to do the hard work of studying up on this topic and then sharing it with God’s people. Keep up the great work!! I’m stoked to listen to this whole series 🤩🤩
@vip2zip
@vip2zip 9 ай бұрын
Mike, I love, love, love this series! One of your other videos, can't recall which one, showed up in my recommended a couple months ago, and after watching a few others, I subscribed. I absolutely love your deep dives! I love that you honor scripture above all, and are seeking to "rightly divide it"--even if that entails having to change your views. You apologize often for how lengthy some of your videos are, but I for one appreciate them! Any serious student of the bible would. You do a superb job showing both sides in this particular series and again, I appreciate that. Be encouraged brother! We need leaders like you who are not afraid of the culture, who are willing to teach the true word of God in humility, which I think you do, but with courage and boldness. I will be praying for you, your ministry, and your family! Sorry for such a long comment.
@HillbillyBlack
@HillbillyBlack 6 ай бұрын
the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
@howard4linda
@howard4linda 2 жыл бұрын
Hi Mike, Howard's wife Linda here, thank you so much for doing all the hard work on this issue. I was a child of the sixties, raised by a single mum, raging feminist, anti marriage. Then at 26 was saved and my world view was challeged, just a bit!! It is only in the last few years, as the rage has stilled, that confidence in the perfect design and peace which is gifted by our Father that I can look at this issue from a biblical perspective. Marrying was one such issue, now, finding my role as part of the body of Christ is the next. Thanks again!
@carolgibson1241
@carolgibson1241 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for taking this topic on! I am a 72-year-old woman who is quite happy being a woman and submitting to God-given authority, I can hardly wait to hear the rest. God bless you Mike!
@greenlimabean
@greenlimabean 2 жыл бұрын
There is a time and place for woman to lead. It isn't a whole congregation at church.
@Gaibreel
@Gaibreel Жыл бұрын
@@greenlimabean why? What makes a man more valuable than women when it comes to their word?
@davidbell2547
@davidbell2547 Жыл бұрын
I like that you said God given authority. A very important distinction
@twistedpixel2558
@twistedpixel2558 Жыл бұрын
​@@Gaibreel Not any more or less valuable. God expects every Christian to spread God's good word and to be a light in this dark world. God has an established order about life. If you aren't willing to submit to God's will, you can't be saved. Period.
@greenlimabean
@greenlimabean Жыл бұрын
@@Gaibreel it's not that men are more valuable. We are equally valuable with men. Im a woman btw. It's that putting a woman in front of the congregation leads to the low parts of men in the congregation coming to the forefront. Sexual fantasies. That, and we women have too much self confidence, self worth, to fall for gender wars in the church.
@biblestudy2197
@biblestudy2197 Жыл бұрын
Excited about this series, thank you for investing the time into studying the topic and sharing with us!
@sandinana9665
@sandinana9665 Жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for teaching on this. Finally! I think I have found a teaching on this subject that doesn’t just feel like reasons & excuses, but actually will discuss the Word of God. ❤
@brendawilson3390
@brendawilson3390 2 жыл бұрын
I’ve been listening to you since about mid January when I discovered you on a friend’s fb post. I began this year by reading through the Word, using a one year study plan. I have been a believer for 27 years, but you are the first person I’ve ever known to actually teach me HOW to study and think biblically. Thank you so much for allowing Father to use you to help me gain the “how to”! I am already seeing the fruits of your guidance. I’ve heard you announce several times that you were working on this series, and I am so thankful you have! Especially after listening to your series, “How To Find Jesus In the OT”, and several other podcasts...I am SO excited to be going through this series with you! Looking forward to gaining wisdom and insight on this much needed subject.
@danielduerkop472
@danielduerkop472 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks so much Mike. I’ve been struggling with this topic for over a year now and I’m looking forward to hearing an understandable Biblical response.
@pixelarrowproductions6308
@pixelarrowproductions6308 2 жыл бұрын
Me too brother. Particularly as a man myself I feel like I'm treading around a minefield whenever I try to confront this issue. I tried to dig into this and found so many different and confusing scholarly conclusions, and knowing the social consequences for going in one direction or the other, I decided just to not try to cross the minefield at all. I'm really glad someone I trust has tackled this issue so carefully and I'm hoping to come out the other side of this with a better understanding.
@logansales7000
@logansales7000 2 жыл бұрын
Me too man. Ive just accepted a position in a denomination that refers to itself as “fully egalitarian” and is “ashamed it took them so long to do so” in like 1997. Wrestled heavily with this. Went back and forth so long. Not settled totally. I want to be egalitarian, but I want to be Biblical and settled in my position (but not unwilling to wrestle with it ever again as necessary).
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@logansales7000
@logansales7000 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 Mike is going to address a lion's share of what you said here. Not to say I agree or disagree, but he has not even gotten there yet. This is a 10 video series and this is merely introductory and cursive. I am interested to see how he will handle this issue.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
@@logansales7000 The mistranslated verses I cited are the very backbone of those who argue against women in ministry and leadership roles and if he didn't mention the error in this first video, you can be certain it won't be mentioned in the other 9 - especially since he states up front that he's leaning towards the complementarian view. You can be sure he's completely unaware of the problem with those verses - once the mistranslation is corrected, you don't need 10 videos to deal with this topic.
@mandyrawlinson7687
@mandyrawlinson7687 10 ай бұрын
WOW!! I am so very grateful you have taken this on and I am excited to watch the complete series! Thank you!
@Noontseeoh
@Noontseeoh 7 ай бұрын
I love that you had the guts to take the time and to go through the effort of bringing this project forward... I really need this and can't wait to learn! Thank you!
@CynHicks
@CynHicks 2 жыл бұрын
A head of household abusing their family isn't an issue attributed to scripture interpretation; it's just evil.
@bellyfulochelly4222
@bellyfulochelly4222 2 жыл бұрын
Yes, amen. Sadly, many churches have distorted the idea of male leadership so much that their teaching enables and encourages that kind of abuse. I'm a staunch complementarian, but I've seen this situation play out first-hand.
@Madewithouthands
@Madewithouthands 2 жыл бұрын
Especially poignant comment with the whole John MacAurthur/David Gray scandal that just broke.
@randallassiter1616
@randallassiter1616 Жыл бұрын
Maybe try reading the Bible before commenting. The Bible tells men to honor their wives and lay down their lives for them. Doing otherwise, such as abusing the wife and family, is obviously a sin bc it is doing the opposite of what the Bible says.
@michaelgilroy1096
@michaelgilroy1096 Жыл бұрын
Yes it is. It is prohibited. Please Spend less time egotistically emoting and more time studying the scripture..
@daniboo0762
@daniboo0762 Жыл бұрын
@@michaelgilroy1096 I think you’ve misread the comment. I believe this person means that other people (people who likely haven’t read the Bible) say that husbands abusing their wives and treating them like property is because the Bible says men are the head and women are to be submissive however we (yourself and the original commenter included) who actually read the Bible can agree that abuse of the wife and children by the husband is contrary to what scripture says because of the command for the husband to love the wife as Christ loved the church and other scripture guidelines for how a husband should treat his wife and manage his household.
@thejohnsonshomeschooljohns7815
@thejohnsonshomeschooljohns7815 2 жыл бұрын
I'm sorry your channel took a hit for a while, and I am so excited to hear your research with an open mind and share it with friends who are also seeking biblical truth on this topic. I just wanted to add that the greatest example of submission and how submission does not make an individual less-than is our own Savior! He did not count equality as a thing to be grasped but submitted Hinself to the Father and because of these actions the Father has given him authority and a name above all! Thank you again for your dedicated time and please extend those thanks to your wife, friends and colleagues who supported and guided you as you studied.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@suzannegriffiths4795
@suzannegriffiths4795 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 I am interested in what you are saying, also because, when I asked God if I should be wearing a headcovering, He indicated no, saying "I don't see you as married". I was surprised, for several reasons; 1)I hadn't even imagined that the verse was directed to wives only 2)I have been married before 3)I have not entertained the idea of remarriage because of God command to women about marriage ending when the spouse dies. My question is, what is your understanding on why God would see Eves transgression as being connected to her marriage? I have been thinking of implications; perhaps her act forced Adam to consider deliberately sinning versus dividing from his wife. Perhaps they were supposed to always agree BEFORE making a decision, and Eve didn't? Maybe Adam hadn't considered ever disagreeing with Eve. Then this would make sense; that unity can only be achieved between fallen mankind if the wife now submits since both are so individualistic and self-serving. Which leads to another implication; if husband and wife learn to agape love each other, the unity could exist without the wife being the one who must submit on every occasion. Also the every occasion would be in question because the decision to submit must be "as unto the Lord" (Eph 5:22), Not as though their husband IS Lord. That is, if he asks her to sin, she is not beholden to obey. Examples here would include Abigail and Nabal, and Sapphira and Ananias. Another question would be, why an unbelieving husband would be persuaded to become a disciple due to the submission of his wife.
@timffoster
@timffoster 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 so.... unmarried women can speak in a church, but married women are to be silent last they bring shame, and are to ask their husbands at home? 1. What is the purpose of this spousal subjugation? 2. How does that make any sense in any culture? 3. What does that have to do with "the Law" (1 Cor 14:34)
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
@@timffoster 1st, the Head of an unmarried woman is Christ alone and she has no restraints regarding public ministry other than good social conduct that everyone normally submits to. If she marries, then her husband takes over headship - that's something she must consider before signing on. She's agreeing to a subordinate role although according to Eph5:21 there's actually mutual submission involved - the husband is called to be a servant-leader not a dictatorial taskmaster. It's similar to Christ's exhortation to His disciples in Mt20:25 - “The rulers of the Gentiles have power and lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many." Eph5 says husbands should have the same attitude of self-sacrifice for their wives as Christ did in dying for the church (His bride), ie, they should be servant leaders - in short, submission isn't a one way street but spouses actually submit one to another. 2nd, the admonition in 1Cor14 is simply that wives should not openly question their husbands opinions or doctrinal stances in the church but to resolve their differences at home - to challenge their own husbands in such a way would indeed be a disgrace and a violation of the marriage bond. There's nothing wrong with a wife speaking out in church if they're both in full agreement about what's going to be shared - that's where the head covering for wives mentioned in 1Cor11:5-6 comes into play - it's a sign she's not merely speaking on her own authority but that the husband is in full agreement.
@Joyps1611
@Joyps1611 2 жыл бұрын
I’m willing to pay the price of entry! ❤️ thank you for the work you have done on this study and sharing it with others. I have enjoyed the first video and how you present the information. Looking forward to continuing on in the series.
@Joytheia
@Joytheia Жыл бұрын
I love your faithfulness to scripture and desire to keep away from all the emotional and cultural filters we so easily place on ourselves. I very much enjoy all your videos and look forward to exploring this series.
@merrygrammarian1591
@merrygrammarian1591 2 жыл бұрын
I literally wept when you listed the questions in the beginning, all the nuanced situations that women might find themselves in that so many people fail to consider. Just to hear a man, and a "soft complementarian" at that, talk about the confusion caused by disagreements in these things was healing in a way. I don't know how many times I was told by one leader in the church to take a leadership role and then told by another that I couldn't do the thing that logically followed. Or given the same position as a male coworker (speaking on a Wednesday night to youth) but having to call it "speaking" and not "teaching or preaching" even though my male counterpart "preached" in the same setting to the same audience. That confusion caused SO much hurt, and I think I embraced a "soft egalitarianism" because it gave me an across-the-board answer. I'm genuinely looking forward to hearing what sounds like a balanced, careful, and Biblically centered view, and I'll try my very best not to let the hurt color my understanding! Thank you, Pastor Mike!
@sallywise2022
@sallywise2022 2 жыл бұрын
I'm sorry you experienced so much hurt. It sounds like the situation you were in was chaotic and you got hurt as a result. Seek God and He will lift you up. God creates order and peace. I hope you find that as you seek Him.
@boopsnootandboogie
@boopsnootandboogie 2 жыл бұрын
I totally understand. This is such a painful subject for some of us. I'm hesitant to watch because any time I get into this topic it feels like ripping off a scab; BUT I do trust Pastor Mike to be fair, balanced, and Biblically minded so I will listen. Also, the "speaker" title always makes me cringe.
@manuelromero2339
@manuelromero2339 2 жыл бұрын
I love the way you worded that second to last statement. I hope the same for myself on all subjects. (But without anywhere near the pain on this topic you’ve had to deal with since I am a guy.)
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@manuelromero2339
@manuelromero2339 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 That's interesting, but it sounds like the kind of thing that will probably get brought up in a later video. I'll be interested to see it.
@esterlyn7604
@esterlyn7604 2 жыл бұрын
Ironically, I’m complimentarian and my husband is leaning egalitarian. He is not ordained, but is functioning as a youth pastor. This is our most contentious topic as we discuss matters of ministry. I’m looking forward to this study and I hope that it can help my husband and I to have thoughtful, loving discussion on the topic.
@wiznup
@wiznup 2 жыл бұрын
You might want to listen to Dr. Michael Heiser's teaching on Women in ministry as well. He's a biblical scholar. It's on KZfaq as well.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I recently posted this to Mike but so far, he hasn't responded - you might be interested: Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you'll fall short if you don't first address a major problem at the start of this series. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting wives to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, the contradictions between those verses and the rest of the bible are instantly resolved. All that remains is to properly exegete a few tangential verses that have been twisted and/or misinterpreted to prop up this faultly doctrine which subjugates and silences half the members of the Body of Christ and causes tremendous damage to the church and many innocent people who are simply trying to obey God's call on their lives.
@wiznup
@wiznup 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 you are missing something that is very key in understanding what is actually being said in 1 Cor 14:34. There is a reference to the LAW in this passage. Now would Paul EVER make a claim that women should subject themselves to the LAW? Of course not! So it is clear then, that in this passage, Paul is responding to an erroneous position previously presented to him regarding the desire of at least one man (maybe more) to silence the women in their public gatherings. And what is Paul's response? It is one of chastising incredulity. He says, "What! Did the word of God come originally to you? Or was it you only that it reached?" He then continues to explain in vs 37 & 38 that what he was writing was a commandment of the Lord and that this preposterous allegation & plea to Paul to silence women in the church was IGNORANT. So men that continue to subjugate women to the back of the bus in the church are disobeying a commandment of the Lord as posited by the Apostle Paul and have chosen ignorance over understanding.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
@@wiznup You need to re-read those verses - you have them totally twisted. Paul is addressing an egalitarian church concerning issues surrounding the use/misuse of the Gifts of the Spirit. When Paul refers to the "Law" in vs34, he's merely referencing the OT and by saying "as the Law ALSO says, he's saying that wives taking a submissive role to their husbands also applies in the NT - which he confirms in vs37 with "what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord". The crux of his admonition is that wives should not teach or otherwise take authority over their own husbands - his intention was to keep marriages intact and prevent them from being undermined as in the garden of Eden where Satan successfully tempted Eve to take a leadership role on an issue that wasn't authorized by God. Unfortunately, due to the translation error, this verse is used to subjugate and silence ALL women regardless of marital status, and to place them in a subservient position to EVERY man in the church - which has nothing whatever to do with what Paul (or the Holy Spirit) actually said or intended.
@wiznup
@wiznup 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 we're going to have to agree to disagree. This is not my own teaching but comes from a father in the faith by the name of Kenneth Hagen and my spirit bares witness to what he teaches. And because he was not threatened by women in ministry he mentored and helped to pastor the teaching gift in Billy's Brim.
@britneygriffin6704
@britneygriffin6704 Жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for this series. I am a woman who was raised in church, but secondary rules and roles were never really discussed or treated with importance. I am at a place now in my life where I am strengthening my faith and trying to read the Bible as it is and follow what it says fully. As a wife, a mother of young girls, and a child of God who is building a better relationship with Him, I am in love with this series. I think it can give me some insights to some questions I have for my life and my roles. Thank you so much for doing this and for not worrying about what people will say, but for doing it biblically. Women who love God and want to follow Him need this kind of truth and honesty.
@ashjade86
@ashjade86 10 ай бұрын
Thank you for doing this, Mike. Finally getting into this series. I’ve been wanting to for a while.
@macgyverswissarmykni
@macgyverswissarmykni 2 жыл бұрын
Mike, this discussion comes at a great time for me; I've been wrestling with the egalitarian question for a while, and it's been hard to find objective, biblically consistent, and culturally sensitive (both in contemporary as well as biblical contexts) discourse on the matter. Thank you for taking the time to understand and present this matter.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I recently posted this to Mike and considering your interest in the topic, you might be interested and it might resolve some of your questions: Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you'll fall short if you don't first address a major problem at the start of this series. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting wives to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions between those verses and other portions of the bible are instantly resolved and all that remains is to properly exegete a few tangential verses along with others that have been twisted and/or misinterpreted to prop up this faulty doctrine which subjugates and silences half the members of the Body of Christ and causes tremendous damage to the church and many innocent people who are simply trying to obey God's call on their lives.
@itzesmi
@itzesmi 2 жыл бұрын
God's word doesn't change , humanity does, society has become more and more progressive and it's seeping into the church and try to twist the Bible into fitting into our needs. I agree pastor Mike
@laurenalmeyda6916
@laurenalmeyda6916 2 жыл бұрын
Amen and amen...struggling with this currently. There is only obedience or disobedience
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
@@laurenalmeyda6916 I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@omnitroph1501
@omnitroph1501 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 He did months of research. Do you think he wouldn't've run across this during any of that? Checking the Greek is just about the first thing pastors do with any disputed verse.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
@@omnitroph1501 An introductory video that doesn't include mentioning the translation error regarding the 2 verse which are the very backbone of those who argue against women in ministry and leadership roles indicates it won't be mentioned in his other 9 videos either - especially since he states up front that he's leaning towards the complementarian view. You can be confident he's completely unaware of the translation problem with those verses - and once the mistranslation is corrected, 10 videos aren't required to deal with this topic. When those corrections are made, the contradictions instantly cease and the controversy ends.
@VicRibeiro777
@VicRibeiro777 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 "You can be confident he's completely unaware of the translation problem with those verses"... Having followed Mike's channel for a while now, I am confident you are completely giving him too little credit. You are judging the end result without watching the other videos. That seems a bit shortsighted, don't you think? If the issues you brought up is in fact never mentioned then your objections are valid. On the other hand, every time someone adamantly states that our understanding of Scripture is because of a specific mistranslation, there are flags raised for me. 1. Which translations specifically? 2. Does the commenter have the necessary linguistic experience to claim this, or can they point to good scholarly articles where this position or problem is discussed?
@amyburrows6412
@amyburrows6412 Жыл бұрын
Thank you for this! I am really struggling through this topic right now! I am eager to continue watching the rest of the series. I’m grateful for the objectivity of the series, the in depth look at both sides, thank you for doing the deep research for me :)
@rayres0708
@rayres0708 Жыл бұрын
Thank you for making these videos. I am looking forward to watching the full series. I am also currently reading Philip Payne’s “Man and Woman One in Christ”. I am a teacher at a private Christian school, and some of my students of a certain denomination have used this issue to undermine my authority in the classroom, so I appreciate your approach that encourages unity.
@OutlawToys
@OutlawToys 2 жыл бұрын
I left a congregation because they brought in a female pastor to replace a pastor that left. While I am a complementarian in view I owe much to women regarding my salvation, from my grandmother to the girl who witnessed to me in high school. God used several women to lead me to Christ and I value them. I did not leave that assembly just because they hired a female as pastor but because it was a major step in a path in progressive theology that had already been bothering me and I wasn't willing to go any further in it and they were not willing or able to give me a solid biblical defense of the reasoning and choice.
@tabletmaster291
@tabletmaster291 2 жыл бұрын
Yeah seems leadership is major issue here, there were female pastors that dont really move to progressive teachings...Im thinking desame way should women be forbidden to teach,witness,write books etc.
@run4cmt
@run4cmt 2 жыл бұрын
I agree that most of the churches allowing women pastors are progressive in theology and no longer following Bible teachings in other areas.
@willworkforyarn4893
@willworkforyarn4893 2 жыл бұрын
I would have a very difficult time if my church allowed a female pastor or deacon. I do believe the Bible is clear that women were not intended to hold those positions. I do believe that God never said they could not teach or write books or even speak on the podium. Women can witness to others and at times it is culturally expected. God made all people to witness and share the Gospel.
@flint2080
@flint2080 2 жыл бұрын
So is your objection? Is it the progressive ideology or is the fact its a women in ministry.
@karenwhitney4826
@karenwhitney4826 2 жыл бұрын
Sounds more like pride was your issue.
@thewoolpack
@thewoolpack 2 жыл бұрын
I am not on either side of this issue yet. I have a lot of questions, and the more I read and study the Bible I get more questions. I don't want to just pick a side, I want to know and follow God's word. So thank you for this series Mike, I hope my questions are answered. I appreciate you taking the time to study and teach on this topic.
@mccalltrader
@mccalltrader 2 жыл бұрын
Hop on a side, one is clear and straightforward…the other requires mental gymnastics
@thewoolpack
@thewoolpack 2 жыл бұрын
@@mccalltrader Not really. People say that cause they are referring to a couple of verses. But when you study the early church, Genesis, the two roles in the church, Paul's letters and more, many questions arise. Some questions are needed for clarity. Thank you for your thoughts though and God bless.
@mccalltrader
@mccalltrader 2 жыл бұрын
@@thewoolpack I’m sorry friend, but that’s not true..we can play what if games all day, however, Paul is very clear about the role of a woman in church, and the book of Titus lays out criteria for church leadership, being a man is one of them. Drawing conclusions outside of the purview of the passages takes mental gymnastics to justify…both ways
@thewoolpack
@thewoolpack 2 жыл бұрын
@@mccalltrader Thank you for being respectful. Like I said some questions are for clarity. I just have some questions about all of this that I need answered. So I'm glad Mike is doing this series, should be good. God bless!
@mccalltrader
@mccalltrader 2 жыл бұрын
@@thewoolpack well good luck to you brother! I’ve found mike to be a great and reliable resource..have a good night!
@belkysa1241
@belkysa1241 2 жыл бұрын
I am so excited to hear this series. Thank you!
@craiglivsey5572
@craiglivsey5572 2 жыл бұрын
Pastor Mike, you have done an outstanding job with these videos. Absolutely edifying. God is definitely using you!
@hannahfloyd2723
@hannahfloyd2723 2 жыл бұрын
Pastor Mike, as a woman I have been struggling with understanding these different positions biblically for a while. I am thrilled and very grateful that you have taken the time and effort to explain this biblically. I appreciate your ministry so much. You put so much thought and effort into your videos and are so careful with the interpretations of the scripture, it is a breath of fresh air to see and hear. I pray that God will continue to bless you and your ministry.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@pastortroy777
@pastortroy777 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 you are NOT a pastor. 1Tim 2 (NKJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¹¹ Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. ¹² And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. "God is simply & extremely clear on this" ~You need to repent.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
@@pastortroy777 You're using circular reasoning. The issue is that I've shown that 1Tim2:11-15 is translated incorrectly- turning around and trying to use the mistranslated verse to prove your point is a fallacious argument. The truth is, the translation error I cited is 100% true and irrefutable - the Greek word "gune" should have been translated as "wife" instead of "woman" and it has no application to me whatsoever since I'm not a married woman.
@baltichammer6162
@baltichammer6162 2 жыл бұрын
@@pastortroy777 Research the Artemis cult at Ephesus which the Apostle Paul dealt with for several years. Between 100 and 200 hours of reading/listening plus more hours digging through garbage, you should have a very good idea WHY Paul writes what he did. It all has to do with the feminist superiority Artemis cult at Ephesus. You will then see that every word/sentence Paul writes about women is directly aimed at the crazy radical feminist cult of Artemis. You've heard of the Amazon women? Guess what? They are not merely a myth they existed and the Artemis cult at Ephesus was mostly built on their belief system & culture. Bible really opens up and shines forth the truth when see beyond one dimension with both eyes. Its beyond words and amazing doesn't come close to describing it. Praise be to God, Creator of Heaven & Earth.
@pastortroy777
@pastortroy777 2 жыл бұрын
@@baltichammer6162 Thank you for your comment 🙏. Mercy, peace & love be in abundance to you.
@borisvandruff7532
@borisvandruff7532 2 жыл бұрын
This is easily my biggest struggle with Scripture right now. Pastor Mike, the fact that you have released this is a true blessing, and I thank the Lord for your ministry.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@borisvandruff7532
@borisvandruff7532 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 This is impossible to read without splitting into paragraphs. I’d recommend doing so in the future.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
@@borisvandruff7532 I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@calebvelasquez7590
@calebvelasquez7590 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 So good, thanks for ACTUALLY diving into the Word!
@davegink9222
@davegink9222 Жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 You can stop copying and pasting now.
@littlepoolefam3
@littlepoolefam3 Жыл бұрын
I have only watched a little under 4 minutes of this video so far, and though I don't know where you stand on the issue or where this video series will go, you have already scored big with me because of you heart and approach to this topic. You basically said that no matter what side of this we are on, we are still brothers and sisters in Christ, and that is huge. Thank you for such a refreshing opening statement. I must go to bed while my insomnia seems to be at bay, but I will come back to this tomorrow, or today rather, and dive into this and perhaps the other parts of the series. I will leave you with this, however, and that is we cannot afford to become as divided as our political leaders and parties have in this country. Otherwise, we will never be able to function as the body of Christ, that Christ Himself intended. There are way too many Christians on both sides of this matter acting as though believing one way or another on this issue can lead to destruction. God bless and keep you, brother!
@heatherjohnson1569
@heatherjohnson1569 Жыл бұрын
This has been a topic that I have been "struggling/wrangling" with this last year. I love apologetics and theology. I love a good healthy discussion about scripture. I also love to teach and show others how scripture intertwines and is a beautiful piece of artwork that only God could create for us. This topic of the place of a woman has never been a topic I paid attention to before, Likely because of our culture. But also because where our culture is now has made me more keenly aware that I could be off on views on this topic. I have been thinking about what is my role in the church. Have I been fulfilling my role? How could I better fulfill my role and set an example to my children? I appreciate that you are doing a series on this topic, because I could use some guidance on this.
@aMayzism
@aMayzism 10 ай бұрын
1 Peter 2:9 we are all royal priesthood.
@susanbarackman-artist7670
@susanbarackman-artist7670 3 ай бұрын
Have you ever been to a site called Tru 3:16-the Eden Podcast. It trues up the scriptures from Gen 3:16 and gives lots of correct info about the genders and what God truly meant for men and women to be.
@bellsage33
@bellsage33 2 жыл бұрын
I was laughing. I was crying. This podcast had me gather my thoughts and feelings,and placing them aside for biblical truth. I can't wait to listen again. I can't wait to hear the rest. Thank you for taking a deep dive into a very difficult issue. It will be nice to get a biblical view on a very important subject.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I recently posted this to Mike and you might be interested: Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@saraihernandez8798
@saraihernandez8798 2 жыл бұрын
I love that I came across this video , I was just asking my dad about this and he was giving me alot of good scriptures, I'm so happy you are going to go into depth, and I ask for prayers so that I may be doing God's will and not mine
@amandachevrier9570
@amandachevrier9570 2 жыл бұрын
I'm SO excited to hear the rest of the series!
@EmmaGrav
@EmmaGrav Жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for this video, Mike. I have fluctuated between the two positions currently on the complementarian side, but this video is such a good reminder to reflect and cast aside our preconceptions and beliefs and focus on the Bible and submit to what it says. Very thought provoking and I look forward to watching the rest of the series!
@karenreynolds349
@karenreynolds349 2 жыл бұрын
I have a sister who says she is a minister- . I grew up in a church were women operated in the roles of Preachers, pastors, evangelist , teachers, ministers, etc. It was never discussed or brought up about what the bible says/ said about women in these roles!! I personally want to think biblically about these matters. So thank you for all your time and research. God bless you!!!
@JC-sr3zt
@JC-sr3zt 2 жыл бұрын
Karen, I believe many if not most of us have had similar experiences, but I appreciate your desire to think biblically! Because of God making us a new creation with a desire to love and obey him, we want to follow His word, and not just lean on experience. I honor hold to a complimentarian view but that has not always been the case, and I have women in my family who I love dearly, who hold roles in which they should not. I don’t make it an issue, and continue to love them and be respectful. :)
@karenreynolds349
@karenreynolds349 2 жыл бұрын
Exactly!!!! In the church I grew up in - women have always been in ministry just like the men!!! Never questioned it, Never heard anyone teach in the church about it it was the "norm".
@bridgeit2006
@bridgeit2006 2 жыл бұрын
His title is pretty click bait-y, but it’s the topic he discusses to counter egalitarians. He agrees with you!
@Switzer1234
@Switzer1234 2 жыл бұрын
I grew up in a church WHERE (not WERE) women acted at pastors.😉
@andrewbradley3305
@andrewbradley3305 2 жыл бұрын
Karen I would recommend reading the book of Titus. Paul outlines the requirements for the church leaders in this epistle. You do not need Mike to tell you. He sent Paul to teach us these things. I am sorry you were raised in a church that turned from Paul. However, you seem to have a good heart and I really think you have the ability to read this epistle and understand the truth
@shawncooper5977
@shawncooper5977 2 жыл бұрын
This actually was the most anticipated series for me, Mike Winger,(such a brilliant teacher)brings every topic and nuance explored thoughtfully and Biblically. This is such a blessing! I am grateful for such a well researched, Biblical view and study.
@andrewbradley3305
@andrewbradley3305 2 жыл бұрын
Go read the epistle of Titus. Paul outlines the requirements for church leaders here
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
@Thoska Brah Don't be so sure - an introductory video that doesn't include mentioning the translation error in the 2 verses that form the basis for excluding women from ministry and leadership roles indicates it won't be mentioned in his other 9 videos either - especially since he states up front that he's leaning towards the complementarian view. No, you can be confident he's completely unaware of the translation problem - and once the mistranslation is corrected, 10 videos aren't required to deal with this topic. When those corrections are made, the contradictions instantly cease and the controversy ends.
@abrahamv.2976
@abrahamv.2976 2 жыл бұрын
@@JoanDArc77 Hi did mention them. He said he would address them later.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
@@abrahamv.2976 Where did he mention the translation errors in 1Tim2 and 1Cor14?
@amandamartin4585
@amandamartin4585 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for all the work you have done on this topic. What I really like about your presentation, even the long introduction, is that there is NO WAFFLE and no waste of time. Hopefully I will be able to listen to all 10 videos 🙏
@SusieRN
@SusieRN Жыл бұрын
I’m excited to start this series. Great job on this opening. ❤
@yimakim
@yimakim 2 жыл бұрын
Pastor Winger, I appreciate your heart for understanding and teaching God's Word. Hope there will be more pastors who eagerly desire to be grounded in the truth 🙏
@nebedward
@nebedward Жыл бұрын
Thanks Mike for your in depth hard work and dedication to show forth the truth of Gods Word without prejudice or agenda except to be honest with the text. You are here for such a time as this and so much appreciated. I will remember you in my prayers brother 🙏
@bettymofokeng3404
@bettymofokeng3404 Жыл бұрын
Pastor Mike I can't thank you enough, I appreciate you digging deep in the Bible and sharing it with us, to help us think Biblically 🙏🙏🙏
@gigahorse1475
@gigahorse1475 2 жыл бұрын
Before watching the video: I’m a complementarian woman. I think woman can do anything but be a pastor (meaning she can witness to men, can be a theologian, can teach women and children, etc.) . I also think women should submit to their husbands decisions (obviously that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be debate/discussion between the husband and wife… just that the man is the final decision maker). I think those two issues relate to each other as the relationship between a husband and wife is an analogy to Christ and the church. This seems to fit the best with scripture. I have more detailed questions, so I am so excited for this series.
@wendylang2360
@wendylang2360 2 жыл бұрын
I agree. I know there is a lot more to come but I believe the Bible calls all Christians to be witnesses. Matthew 28:7 & 10 the women were the first ones told to go & tell that Christ is risen. I have spoken many times to congregations during services though I have no (man given) qualifications & many times I have received thanks & appreciation - to God be the glory! BUT my understanding of the Bible is that women have no spiritual authority over men. There is a big difference in teaching to being in a position that includes correction. I attend a church where the pastor is a woman so that makes this study even more relevant. Just to add to things that impact on my seeking is my husband is not a Christian but he is head of our home.
@nicoleparsons7630
@nicoleparsons7630 2 жыл бұрын
Can I ask an honest question? Why do you favor a "final say" version of authority instead of a "responsible for acting like Jesus first and creating a flourishing environment for everyone" version of authority? Matthew 20:26-28, Mark 10:43-45, philippians 2:5-8, 1 Corinthians 13:4, etc. For example, I have authority as a parent, but it's not to have the power and control and the final say, it's so I can guide and disciple my children and empower them to make their own wise and Christ-like decisions. It's my job to create an environment where they can thrive and grow in wisdom and stature. And sure, sometimes I have to make a choice for their good and their flourishing, but I don't define my authority that way. And even when I have to hold a boundary, it's not done by insisting they obey, it's done by figuring out how to support them and guide them toward Jesus. I see a husband's authority in the same way, but different because a woman is not a child. It's his responsibility as the head to reflect Jesus first, to lay himself down first, to seek the flourishing of others first, etc. And it's my job to submit to him and strive to do the same things first. His guide is Jesus and the fruits of the spirit and my guides are the same. I just have a hard time understanding why the lead/submit model is favored over mutual respect, problem solving, conflict resolution, and teamwork for the good of the whole family, with the wife looking to her husband's interests and the husband looking to his wife's interests, and them both looking to the interests of their children together as a partnership. And working things out through prayer and fasting when they can't agree, and working it out until they can. Maybe you can help me understand how you view the lead/submit model? Do you understand it differently?
@gigahorse1475
@gigahorse1475 2 жыл бұрын
@@nicoleparsons7630 I don’t disagree with anything you say. It seems like we are saying the same things. We both agree that both the man and woman have responsibilities in the relationship. As far as the children analogy, I would argue the authority parents have over their children is greater than the authority a husband has over his wife. So I’m not the biggest fan of that analogy… I’m not going to marry a man who treats me like a child (as you mentioned, the analogy isn’t perfect). :)
@nicoleparsons7630
@nicoleparsons7630 2 жыл бұрын
@Mila Nora that's fair. I didn't mean to imply at all that women are like children, so I'm sorry if that came across that way. I meant to give a more black and white example of authority as "responsibility" instead of "final say," a definition that I apply to any type of position of authority. So what's the difference between the complementarian lead/submit model and the egalitarian model of mutual respect I described above? Again, genuine question. ❤ Usually my husband do the research together and talk about the needs/ wants of our family and are able to make a decision together. We seriously consider each others thoughts and ideas and no one has a Trump card in their back pocket to end a disagreement. If a decision can't be made, the one who knows less/ has less at stake/ feels less strongly about it usually submits to the other. My husband is a very very generous person, to the point that it might seem "unwise" to some (we won't be millionaires by the time we retire 😅) He always prays and seeks the Holy Spirit and always looks to the needs of our family first, and we've made a lot of sacrifices because of his beautiful desire to give and serve others. In those rare instances that I disagree with his choice to give, he always shares his heart with grace and gentleness and love. He hears me out and takes my ideas into account. And if he still feels strongly even if I don't, i say, "i will trust your decision and your wisdom and I will support you in whatever capacity you need." I did days and days of research on parenting when our oldest was born. My husband did not. In those rare instances that I disagreed with a parenting choice, I would talk to him about it with gentleness and humility and kindness and show him what I was learning and listen with empathy and compassion. I would take his thoughts into account and seriously consider his perspective. And if i still felt strongly about it, he would say, "I trust your decision and your wisdom and I will support you in whatever capacity you need." And if we still can't agree after all that, we get pastoral counseling in good faith (that's happened maybe once?) This is not the lead/submit model I learned in my complementarian upbringing. Maybe my experience is not common? What are your thoughts?
@ElleeZee289
@ElleeZee289 2 жыл бұрын
@@nicoleparsons7630 can you please share resources that support your perspective on what authority means? It makes total sense to me and I’ve never heard anyone articulate it that way.
@geewcee5763
@geewcee5763 2 жыл бұрын
I'm so happy that you're doing this in depth study! Years ago I asked my pastor about this who has egalitarian views and he didn't really know how to answer. Then I asked the women in ministry leader and she couldn't answer either. That's when I realized that it was a topic where people kinda just went along with what was going on in their church without necessarily doing the work to back it up in scripture. In my studies I became more and more aware of differences in roles and it changed my view on the topic. Thank you! I look forward to the following episodes.
@danielchilton6881
@danielchilton6881 2 жыл бұрын
I just started watching these apologetics vids and they are wayyy better than I thought they'd be. That catch at the beginning where you said "she's trying to make the idea intolerable from the outset so that you can only side with her" is a core tenant of post structuralism, I think laid out by either Gramsci or Marcuse. So for you to articulate the method exactly as it's been prescribed is really impressive.
@belj24
@belj24 Ай бұрын
I want to thank you, Mike. The more I watch of these videos, the stronger my belief in egalitarianism becomes. (I used to be a firm believer in complementarianism). I'm not going to get into further discussion in the comment section because that would be virtually impossible to do with so many hours of video and people on the internet, and it isn't really the forum for that. But I would encourage everyone watching these videos to actually go to egalitarian sources, including the ones he refers to (that he sometimes misrepresents and misunderstands), to Scripture, and to prayer. Ask yourself: what egalitarian arguments is he not addressing or understanding properly? What questions about complementarianism does he not answer? What assumptions do he (or you) make? And truthfully, that is very difficult to do. We all have our biases and weaknesses and I am definitely not exempt from that. And it is especially difficult to investigate and ask questions if you are surrounded by people who all say the same things. And with hours and hours of video, we can mistakenly assume length is equal to accuracy. And there is just so much that it can be difficult to even begin to engage (made all the more difficult by Mike saying you shouldn't respond in disagreement unless you've watched all the videos). Despite telling us he wants to help us learn HOW to think and not WHAT to think, Mike does tell you what to think. He calls arguments dumb (sometimes before he even gets to the argument, setting you up to not even truly think about it because you don't want to be dumb). He doesn't show you how to study - he tells you what he studied and what he believes. But it's easy to come away agreeing with him and thinking you figured it out for yourself, when the videos set you up to agree with him and make discussion difficult. And he sometimes maligns egalitarians by saying the agenda is more important than faithfulness to the Word of God, and that we make people hate Christians. If you're anything like I was as complementarian, making egalitarians sound like a threat to my faith and witness to Christ was VERY effective at getting me to close my eyes and plug up my ears so I wouldn't even be able to hear what they had to say. Even so, I am grateful that Mike acknowledges that this is indeed a secondary issue and not a salvation one. And I would encourage all to not just sit and watch these videos, but to seek, pray and ask questions yourself. Whether you are (or become) a complementarian-turned-egalitarian like me, or an egalitarian-turned-complementarian, or remain wherever you were, if you have truly studied and wrestled and can articulate both the strengths and weaknesses of a position - including the strengths and weaknesses of your own, and nourish a respect for your fellow believers and a deeper love for God - that is a positive thing. While I do grieve that so many still believe in marital hierarchy and restraining half the body of Christ, everyone has to be convinced in their own walk with the Lord and there are always things we can learn from each other.
@pariscapri1594
@pariscapri1594 2 жыл бұрын
I’m only 25 minutes in and I can already tell that this series is going to be amazing.
@user-fn4gy8fq6x
@user-fn4gy8fq6x 2 жыл бұрын
I’ve been waiting so long for this video/series! Thank you, Pastor Mike!
@dongraybill1764
@dongraybill1764 Жыл бұрын
Thank you, Michael, for taking this courageous and biblical stand. I look forward to Fridays.
@Linden_alicia
@Linden_alicia 2 жыл бұрын
God bless you Mike! Thank you for your time and energy and for letting God use you to bless others! 🤗
@holliebutler5579
@holliebutler5579 2 жыл бұрын
Hi Pastor Mike. This is my first-ever comment on any KZfaq video. I have a lot of appreciation and respect for you and your ministry. I’ve watched most of your videos and appreciate your thoughtfulness in approaching Scripture, your steady posture of submission to God’s Word, and your apparent care for your listeners as people. I’ve looked forward to this teaching series since you first announced you were researching the topic, and I’m eager to hear how your processing develops through the following videos. I’m an unmarried female worker, serving in Bible translation in a third-world country, where my role includes helping a team of male translators understand Scripture so that they can translate it accurately into their own language. I grew up strongly complementarian, and as long as I can remember, I’ve seen great beauty in submission (though it can be hard in practice). During my seminary studies in preparation for the mission field, I pushed back against a theology professor who challenged my complementarian perspective of women in church leadership. That turned into an intermittent year-long dialogue with him, conversations with 50+ people (mainly instructors and fellow students), and months of intense scholarly research, topped off with a 40-page research paper… just to help my own memory when I would inevitably forget the arguments down the line. I needed to try to understand the issues more deeply, because the implications for my life and ministry were/are significant, and I am committed to submitting to what Scripture says on the issue. Like you, I found that there are heated emotions and many bad arguments from both sides. But I eventually landed on a nuanced understanding of Scripture, where I’m firmly “complementarian” with regard to marriage relationships but “egalitarian” with regard to roles in the local church and ministry. My understanding of 1 Corinthians 11 was fundamental to that conclusion (sort of along the lines of Anthony Thiselton’s view in his commentary on the text). My professor’s stance is that my position is untenable - that I can’t straddle between the two “camps” - but that is where I’ve been settled for the past few years. I don’t see any way to budge on my complementarian understanding of marriage roles in Scripture, so I can’t see that I’d ever become fully egalitarian. But I do see in Scripture a leveling of gender-based hierarchy in the church, with significant implications and applications for life and ministry. Still, I am open to learning more. All that to say: Thank you for setting apart the time to dig into these issues, and I look forward to your coming videos. May God guide your understanding and your words, and may you be encouraged in your ministry. Grace and peace to you from a fellow servant in Christ.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@MarkWCorbett1
@MarkWCorbett1 2 жыл бұрын
Excellent video! I pray that God will bless this whole series and use Mike to help many people think biblically about this controversial and practical topic.
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@emilyacevedo4746
@emilyacevedo4746 Жыл бұрын
A little late to the party but I’m excited to be here. Thank you so much for striving to point people back to the Bible, especially on tender issues like this.
@marisakennedy777
@marisakennedy777 2 жыл бұрын
I read a book years ago called "Left Brain, Right Brain" which was about the findings of scientists while studying mostly split-brained patients, who are people who have had their corpus callosum cut so that the left and right halves of their brain could not communicate through it. There was a chapter about differences in the brain that are effected by testosterone and estrogen. One of the things they brought out is that women have thicker corpus callosums and use both halves of their brain moreso then men. They found this helped women to think things through more thoroughly but also made it take longer to come to a decision and more often then men would not be able to decide. Men could come to conclusion more easily but were more prone to jumping to wrong conclusions. To me this makes at least one aspect clear. Men are natural decision makers and therefore leaders. While women are natural advisors. I've also studied personality differences. We are shaped some by environment or genetics, but there definitely is a wild-card factor in what basic personality we get. And I think this boils down in part to ....well let me give the illustration of how different computers are built to handle certain tasks better, some better for data access would be not a good fit for a graphics heavy use. Likewise, our minds have software and hardware that prioritizes brain function differently. Some of these are tied to gender. And this again came up in the Left Brain, Right Brain book. They found that certain functions did better with a mid-range of testosterone, and others with high estrogen. So that men with less testosterone hit that mid range and women with high testosterone hit that mid range. (Research was still ongoing and there could very well also be abilities that do better with less estrogen or whatever.) While overall men and women, the higher the estrogen, the better in those areas it was tied to. It isn't an all or none scenerio, but a range scenario. Everybody has testosterone and estrogen but our ranges differ along with resulting abilities. This results in humanity being able to accomplish many different things. It provides both flexibility and specialization. It's like the difference between only having a swiss army knife or instead having a workshop with many varieties of tools for different purposes. And of these, men and women are the first subsets of specialization.
@chadvandam7179
@chadvandam7179 Жыл бұрын
Didn’t that book also have a case with a person where the right part of the brain was Christian the left part of the brain was atheist?
@marisakennedy777
@marisakennedy777 Жыл бұрын
@@chadvandam7179 ummmm, no. But there are a number of books about the halves of the brain. The book I read was written in the 90s.
@brucetenhave6952
@brucetenhave6952 Жыл бұрын
Sounds very interesting. Who wrote the book Left Brain Right Brain?
@marisakennedy777
@marisakennedy777 Жыл бұрын
@@brucetenhave6952 i wish i could remember, i found it in the science section and it had a red-orange cover, that's as far as my memory goes for the book cover though, and I'm bad at remembering names. I tried looking it up again and there are a number of similarly named books, I'm not 100% sure (I'd have to be able to read parts again) but I think it may be the one by James Iaccino.
@alexz7025
@alexz7025 Жыл бұрын
This makes so much sense I really like it. Biblically women do have to submit to their husbands unless it’s a bad and unGodly decision. We are to advise our husbands as well and they make decisions based on that. It should be a team not a dictatorship. Women are not powerless in a marriage either.
@okEPlant
@okEPlant 2 жыл бұрын
So excited for this series!!! I've been wanting to study this more for myself, because I know what my position is, but I want to be able to defend my stance with THE BIBLE, not just tradition.
@pamelatrost2750
@pamelatrost2750 2 жыл бұрын
Jesus submitted his will to the will of His Father. Would an egalitarian perceive then that Jesus was claiming He was in some way not equal with His Father - or in some way inferior - or in some way of less value? The submission within the persons of the Trinity speaks to me ultimately of the sublime nature of love, involving submission and sacrifice on behalf of the other for their good - and their glory. Thanks Mike for all the time you’ve taken to carefully and biblically explore this topic.
@davidg1552
@davidg1552 2 жыл бұрын
I’m not an egalitarian but Jesus did say the Father was greater than Him
@pamelatrost2750
@pamelatrost2750 2 жыл бұрын
@@davidg1552 Jesus glorified His Father on earth by His perfect submission to the Father (John 17:4) as the final Adam. He - by means of His incarnation - did what man failed to do; and He did it to show the world how He loved the Father (John 14:30,31) and how mankind was to love God and our fellow believers (Ephesians 5:21) : by our submission for the sake of love. So as a man, the Father is greater than He. But as God, they are one essence with different functions. Jesus - in the context of the passage you quote (John 14:28) - is telling his disciples to be glad for him because when His obedience is complete, He is returning to the Father and the Father will glorify Him with the same glory He had with the Father before the world was created (John 17:5). Also in that passage, the ruler of this world has no power over Him because - unlike the first Adam, Jesus, the final Adam, did just as the Father commanded Him (John 14:31) and remained in His love (John 15:10).
@davidg1552
@davidg1552 2 жыл бұрын
@@pamelatrost2750 good explanation brother
@danielallemang9414
@danielallemang9414 Жыл бұрын
This is exactly why I would hesitate to call this a secondary issue
@GregRickard
@GregRickard Жыл бұрын
If you read the bible objectively you will realise the trinity as it is taught, is not compatible with the bible. It is simply not taught. Read the bible without that preconcieved idea and you will see that Jesus was a man, born of a woman. Let that sink in first. Then realise he lived as a Jew, under the law, observing all of it and being subject to it himself. He prayed to God, who was also his father, because Joseph wasn't. Jesus said that he was ascending to his God and your God. Seriously does that sound like a third of some three person godhead?
@JORELMORALES
@JORELMORALES 4 ай бұрын
Thank you for this. I feel so blessed for finding it. Thank you for the hundreds of hours that you must have put into this prior to recording. It shows. God bless.
@melaniem4070
@melaniem4070 Жыл бұрын
This is THE BEST methodical, Biblical, sound teaching series on this subject. Thank you, Pastor Mike, for the incredible amount of work you put into this.
@HillbillyBlack
@HillbillyBlack 6 ай бұрын
the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
@innovati
@innovati 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for taking the time to study this, thank you for sacrificing to bring us clarity on this important issue. Love you brother Mike!
@jenniferdavison7052
@jenniferdavison7052 2 жыл бұрын
SUPER EXCITED to soak up this series. Thank you for investing the time to study it and share what you learn. PLEASE make sure you address the topic from the perspective of single and abandoned women (women living the life of an aguna). How can a single adult woman be subject to her husband or ask her husband or even her father at home? Of course she can’t. How does merciless prejudice against her immutable designation as a woman, and rigid legalistic adherence to Paul’s pastoral letters fulfill the command for a man in church leadership to love his (single female) neighbor as himself? It doesn’t.
@fotbollen2001
@fotbollen2001 7 ай бұрын
This is awesome! So looking forward to watching all of this series! God bless you man!
@boobookitty16
@boobookitty16 10 ай бұрын
I really appreciate how generous you are to both sides of the issue and thank you so much for this in depth look at this topic that is so important for many churches!
@Eyedkena
@Eyedkena 2 жыл бұрын
Keep killing it, Mike! Looking forward to going through this Bible study series with you!!!
@ilanabailey9402
@ilanabailey9402 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you Mike for this blessing! I’ve been looking forward to it since you announced it last year. ♥️♥️♥️
@SheepAmongWolves
@SheepAmongWolves 2 жыл бұрын
Mike, I’ve been waiting to hear this series (wanting to let several episodes come out so I could binge watch it)…finally getting into it and will be sharing it with my community. Great work brother!
@MeanBadger89
@MeanBadger89 2 жыл бұрын
I know I'm 2 months late to this lesson. Lol, but I just wanted to say Thank You for this. I have been looking for an indepth study/lecture on this topic. Just because as a woman, I have been confused by this topic. Feeling like I'm being pulled in two directions. I want to be a Egalitarian but feel pulled to be more Contrarian. Thank you so much for this.
@coltonmoore4572
@coltonmoore4572 2 жыл бұрын
So pumped for this series. Loved the balanced view you have presented already!!
@Journey_Around
@Journey_Around 2 жыл бұрын
I have been waiting for this! Thank you for your devotion to the Lord and the time you put into wanting to teach well. I’m looking forward to the rest of the series 👍
@oscarbarton183
@oscarbarton183 Жыл бұрын
I’m a retired pastor who thourouly enjoyed part 1 and have subscribed to your channel to hear more on this topic! 🔥
@lindajones7471
@lindajones7471 2 жыл бұрын
I appreciate this detailed video series. I hesitated watching this because I was set on my views and had done my own research and thought I knew what I had firmly decided. However, as a Christian woman who desires what God wants more than what I want, I need to be open to what God says. I look forward to the next video. Yes, I want to submit to God! Looking forward to the studying of the word!
@Nicole-po7mp
@Nicole-po7mp 2 жыл бұрын
Been waiting like what seems forever for this, then missed the live stream!! However, soo happy this is finally out. Thank you Mike!
@Mackenzieaye
@Mackenzieaye 2 жыл бұрын
I HAVE BEEN WAITING SO LONG FOR THIS AND I AM SO STOKED!!!!!!!! THANK YOU PASTOR MIKE AND MODS!!!! You all ROCK!!
@JoanDArc77
@JoanDArc77 2 жыл бұрын
I just posted this to Mike yesterday, and you might be interested : Mike, I appreciate your efforts to resolve this issue but you fell short, not by any failure on your part, but you were sabotaged. As I'll explain here, the bible actually doesn't exclude women from operating in any Gifts of the Spirit nor from any of the leadership roles listed in Eph4:11 or 1Cor12:28 including apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist - this controversy is actually due to a translation error. The main two verses used to subjugate and silence women in the Body of Christ, 1Tim2:11-15 and 1Cor14:33-35, both have flagrant translation errors involving the Greek word 'gune' (pronounced goo-nay) which can mean 1)a woman of any age, 2)a virgin, 3)a widow, 4)a married woman (a wife), or 5)a betrothed woman. The same Greek word is translated "woman" 129 times and "wife" 92 times in the bible and the context of the verse determines the meaning. The context of the 1Tim2 and 1Cor14 verses indicates that "wives" not "women" are being referred to. For instance, vs35 in 1Cor14 says "they should ask their own husbands at home.." and 1Tim1:13 says "For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman (his wife) who was deceived and fell into transgression." The context is clearly speaking about marriage and wives are being referred to, not women in general - the head of a wife is her husband but the Head of a single woman is Christ alone. Paul's exhortation simply warns that despite their liberty in Christ, wives should be careful not to take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church, NOT that no woman should ever be placed in authority or must remain silent and submissive to all other men in the church - that's a perverted rendering which contradicts Paul's other epistles and the rest of the bible as well. For instance, it's inconsistent with what Paul stated earlier in 1Cor, exhorting women to pray or prophesy with a head covering (ch11 vs 5). And in Rom16:1 Paul commends Phoebe, a deaconess, and exhorts the church in Rome to accept and support her ministry there. It also can't be reconciled with instances in the OT where women had leadership roles such as the prophetess Deborah who was selected by God as both the secular and spiritual leader over Israel (Judges 4&5) and the prophetess Hulda who Josiah, the king, submitted to (2Ki22:14-20, 2Chr34:22-28) and other NT examples such as Philip's 4 prophetess daughters (Acts21:8-9) who ministered in the church at Caesarea. The bottom line is, the only biblical exclusion for women in ministry or leadership roles is regarding wives - Paul's exhortation is for them not to teach or take authority over their own husbands or speak out from under their authority in the church. That's it, if their husbands concur with them taking a leadership role and don't have any issues with what they teach, then they're free to engage in any leadership or ministry that men can assume, and they should only be judged like every other minister - by their character, conduct, and how their teachings line up with God's word. Once the mistranslation is corrected, all the contradictions with the rest of the scriptures are instantly resolved and one indication that it's indeed biblically correct is that both sides, complementarians and egalitarians alike, aren't totally happy with the results.
@AngelPR515
@AngelPR515 Жыл бұрын
This video was such a Blessing to me. I will soon watch/listen to the rest of this series. Thank you Brother Mike! I actually subscribed because of this video. God Bless you Bro
@lauraalbertson7821
@lauraalbertson7821 Жыл бұрын
I am looking forward to this study . As usually, you are making your beliefs solid in the Word of God . You remind me of my Son . Very knowledgeable and very kind in your sharing. Don’t worry about losing people. The Holy Spirit will support You in Your passion to educate the Body of Christ. I hear you . I hear HIM in You ♥️ Laura
@danieljbull77
@danieljbull77 2 жыл бұрын
Really appreciate the video and looking forward to the whole series. Thanks for taking the time to study this so comprehensively.
@vivianeborkholder2268
@vivianeborkholder2268 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this series, Mike!!! I loved this video and I can't wait to watch the rest! I am a woman, the worship leader of my church, and I'm just bursting with sermons and teachings! I love God's word and I want everyone to know it and to fall in love with it as well. When I was 18, I believed that God was calling me to be a pastor in some way, but my dad (an extreme complementarian, to the point of devaluing women) said that if I do that, I'm in direct disobedience to God. He soured me so much toward "complementarianism" that I decided I'd never get married so I wouldn't have a man's boot on my neck. Well, God is good. I submitted my will to Him when I met my now husband and we've been happily married for 10 years and have 3 children. Submission is a beautiful thing, when it's biblical! But I still have that question nagging in my mind, am I disobeying God by being a leader in my church?? I want to be fully submitted to God, no matter what that means for me. I just want to know the right answer, without culture and without my past experiences!
@michaeldenny8675
@michaeldenny8675 2 жыл бұрын
What a wonderful, thoughtful way of looking at this. May GOD bless you as you seek HIS will for your life.
@BrotherDave80
@BrotherDave80 2 жыл бұрын
you as a woman should not be a pastor
@blackswan4486
@blackswan4486 2 жыл бұрын
If your father was that abusive, maybe you still have some warped beliefs. Please read Lundy Bancroft or Don Hennessy.
@patnor7354
@patnor7354 5 ай бұрын
Read what Paul wrote. Do you feel you know better than the guy who pretty much founded the Church? But a better question is would you do better than the priest who already preach? Given how so many have left all Christian teachings, maybe you are needed.
@AmyAndThePup
@AmyAndThePup Жыл бұрын
You got another subscriber with this one. I've always leaned complementarian, without question, but I've always struggled to understand the other side whose name I don't know how to spell yet. What you described in that book around the 50-55-minute mark, about stories as theology, really struck me as poignant. It reminded me so, so much of today's sensationalist, drama-filled culture, all about our feelings and not about truth. I can't wait for the rest of these videos. Thanks so much!
@kirstintipps8672
@kirstintipps8672 Жыл бұрын
I’m so excited for this series!
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