Why You Should (NOT?) Back Grimcoven

Рет қаралды 3,300

Күн бұрын

#LiegeOfGames #boardgames
A lot of Grimcoven discussion. Should you back it? Or should you wait? Or pass altogether? I talk for way too long on the topic, going over all the relevant and irrelevant related issues and topics regarding the game to help you figure out whether or not it's right for you or if you're FOMO'ing.
Thanks for watching!
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Time Stamp:
00:00 - Don’t Back It?
00:43 - A Real Prototype Preorder
- How Much Change Based On Campaign?
03:34 - You Are Buying “Hope”
- Right Now Vs Potential
05:38 - Why Crowdfunding So Soon?
- The 1st Edition Vs 2nd Edition Concerns
07:57 - More Stuff (Is It Bloat) = Value?
- Replayability: Do I really need all of this for the full experience?
- Relearn Every Time You Play?
11:57 - Boss Battler vs All Modes Game
- ALL THE MODES!?
- When Is Quantity for the sake of Quantity?
14:25 - The Gameplay Question Mark
- Comparisons To Known Similar Games (AT:O, KDM)
18:54 - Does The Use of AI in the Art Process Matter To You?
19:44 - The Question of Stretch Pay
- Is It A Status Symbol vs Actuality
21:51 - If This Wasn’t Named “Awaken Realms”…
- Is It Right For “Me”
24:32 - Get It Later?
25:20 - Base Game Vs Expansions “Value”/“Recommendation”
27:50 - Late Pledge

Пікірлер: 108

@bartvandamme7068 15 күн бұрын

Because I don't need another game that ends up on my shelf of shame indefinitely.

@victorp4210 15 күн бұрын

We dont need more "amount of stuff" for our money. For that purpose we need more PLAY TESTING

@Gamebent1 15 күн бұрын

A couple of days before the Grimcoven campaign ends, and AW still hasn't decided the official size of the minis or how they will be Sundropped (what color for heroes, different colors for enemies, etc...). The entire campaign seems like it was thrown together with the same sloppy A.I. that made the wonky-looking character renders. I expected to back Grimcoven, but numerous red flags caused it to become an easy pass.

@GalemNS 15 күн бұрын

Thanks for being the voice of reason, was about to dive head first on the hopium all the issues would be fixed. Better to wait for grimcoven 2.0 😢

@SK-do5rv 15 күн бұрын

I dropped my preorder yesterday. Didn't wanna get burned if its good ill get it on 3rd party.

@samuel1289 15 күн бұрын

If it’s good there will be a reprint kickstarter

@clanechelon 14 күн бұрын

Every AR games come to retail with barely any exclusive, don't they?

@luisecmf 14 күн бұрын

@@clanechelon They've said only standee version will go to retail.

@clanechelon 14 күн бұрын

@@luisecmf Ah thanks for the info. That's the version I would buy anyway. I think I got enough miniature game already ^^

@olehansen3775 15 күн бұрын

I think you just saved me about 150 Bucks that i was willing to pile on this Game

@Walboro 13 күн бұрын

I'm just backing cause I love painting gothic minis. 🤷🏻‍♂️

@Linnir 9 күн бұрын

Glad you lead with this prototype point. I want to know what I’m paying for, so I will back something else and maybe get this on a reprint once the player verdict is in.

@Linnir 9 күн бұрын

I must say I really understand the urge to find that campaign game that is right for you. It took a few years, but I found the right one for me: Dungeon Unversalis. Makes it much easier to be more objective about these games.

@rawkyle9385 13 күн бұрын

Shelfside’s review was very helpful. I am not backing at this point, but it does sound like it has potential.

@HerVoiceRemains 13 күн бұрын

Umm, because I already have Oathsworn. And, yes, I’ve played 1-off games with it with people who are not campaigners. All good 😊 As you say, no Rulebook on Day 1, no dice. Period. I love Chris and this channel. I spent my entire life as a punk rock musician, shoving very uncomfortable truths at people and “The Leige”is the punk of boardgames. If you get uptight about what he says, you likely need to look inward and reflect.

@que-tangclan5856 15 күн бұрын

I backed grimcoven on day one, then backed out of it later and didn’t regret it. The fomo subsided

@Twineandribbon 14 күн бұрын

Shirt changes Red - Black - Red over the course of the review, reflecting the extreme Red and Black and more Red color palette of the game being discussed. Very clever. Hats off.

@kubakeska5932 15 күн бұрын

I didnt back it because Im not a fan of repeated bossess. Oathsworn habe 21 unique fights and Im on 10th

@luisecmf 14 күн бұрын

That has been my main concern. Oathsworn had a lot of unique fights while GC has very few bosses and they expect you to keep repeating them (and each fight takes 3 hours)

@toddferrullo1871 14 күн бұрын

Dropped my pledge the other day. I wanted to really like this as a one shot non-campaign boss battler but the AI artwork, the completely incomplete rushed gameplay and mostly the lack of any real responses from AR on how they are going to fix things just turned me off of this. If it actually turns out to be good then there will be a reprint campaign and if it is not any good... I would rather it not join Etherfields on my shelf.

@oliverlam5208 13 күн бұрын

Most AR games end up being improved and decently well done in the end. I always prefer them to be less fiddly and more streamlined but their theme and art is more important for my game group and especially new players. I think all of these points are valid but with AR track record and reputation it’s less of a concern.

@critiquegeek7987 15 күн бұрын

So many excellent points in this video!

@jaycareno5379 15 күн бұрын

StretchPay reminds me of Layaway. Remember that? 😊

@OPMDK 14 күн бұрын

Who is producing Grimcovn now, is it still being contracted out?

@nicksun7619 14 күн бұрын

This is why I am backing Odalin instead

@user-tj1og5dd7l 13 күн бұрын

This video could also be named "Why You Should (NOT?) Back *any Awaken Realms' game*". Thanks Chris, you put into words my feelings about AR. I cancelled my Dragon Eclipse's pledge a few weeks ago because I'm tired of their aggressive marketing strategy: they are selling hollow shell. And in the end, like every AR's games I know it will be a "Meh" and bloated game (but a beautiful game like every AR's game).

@luenarturoho1385 13 күн бұрын

Please do a video about blood from ludus magnus

@normstewart546 13 күн бұрын

Call them like you see them. A little skepticism is a good thing in this environment.

@apokai 14 күн бұрын

I needed that so much. You're awesome. Thanks man.

@RE5PEKT7 15 күн бұрын

Dropped this backing over the weekend. Too pricey for a game that feels like I would probably end up not wanting to play because of the obtuse mechanics that probably will artificially lengthen the gameplay.

@4469luis 14 күн бұрын

They should have waited another year at least to launch this campaign. I wasn't convinced by the gameplay, and realtwanted to back it. But I won't

@ptastydactyl 15 күн бұрын

Chris you gotta great point. I have KDM and have ATO coming. Waiting for the finished, polished product is probably smarter for me. BTW that shirt is awesome! Where'd you get it?

@darrenwoodman6656 14 күн бұрын

So is Odalin the next? Please review. Cheers. ( No didn't back Grimcovern.)

@user-tj1og5dd7l 13 күн бұрын

I'd love a "Why You Should (NOT?) Back Odalin" video, there's plenty to rant about 😅

@SherlockChromesSFY 14 күн бұрын

I honestly haven’t followed much about Stalker. What significant gameplay changes are you referring to?

@gabefrost2407 13 күн бұрын

Gonna say that some of these points don't quite hit the mark for me. Generally though I understand what you're getting at. Give due consideration before deciding and don't decide under a rock. For me, Awakened Realms delivers immersive experiences and enjoyable gameplay. There may be a 2.0 later on, but it will likely incorporate the old content in some way. I didn't back it during the campaign as I have to wait a bit before I'm financially comfortable. I've skipped some stuff that doesn't resonate with me, like Tainted Grail, but AR hasn't given me a reason personally not to support this, given their past track record with me.

@krzysiekkowal209 15 күн бұрын

THX CHRIS

@marcnno6323 14 күн бұрын

Would l buy this set of blocks if it was not LEGO?

@argy8141 14 күн бұрын

Too many issues, too much form rather than substance. I've got sick and tired of too many publishers sticking up a load of art up for an idea but with no real playtesting backing it up. Luckily I don't need another "lifestyle game" to sit on my shelf. Was interested because of the Hype Train but just couldn't really get excited about what was on offer. Same for STALKER. And since I've implemented a one in one out policy, I'm not seeing the need to get stuff on crowdfunding. I'll wait and get the retail version or the v2 on crowdfunding if it really is that good. Going on holiday soon and what's going with us. Gaia Project, Umbrella Academy, Imperium (all 3 in one box, it's heavy), Tiny Epic Zombies and Tiny Epic Blast Off

@Kinert 14 күн бұрын

I will get it, even if I think is not going to be that good as usually a lot of this dungeon crawlers feel just only good enough for me. But I'm getting it because is the only one offering me one shots that is the only thing that I can play, and I don't know that many dungeon crawlers or boss battlers that are one shots only zombizide or CDMD. and it have good bling that is a little less expensive and I can paint miniatures that I usually don't have miniatures to paint.

@toddcontino7271 15 күн бұрын

Actually Chris, ATO is literally “Into the Unknown” lol

@theoavg 15 күн бұрын

Awaken realms is a huge studio, like cmon, that tries to present itself as a small scale indie creator. Tainted grail was a very ambitious game, the first that I backed and the most money that I spent for not playing it ever.

@goran2608 15 күн бұрын

I love love love the minis, I don't think it would be played much though, 3 hours is a bit long i think, and its 3 hours at least.

@toddcontino7271 15 күн бұрын

Yeah if I’m playing a game that long I’d rather get into Middara or Primal with 4 players or DoM I just got. Not gonna lie though I’ll probably still end up backing Grimvoven. As of now I’m pledged for ~$275….thinking about dropping the animal and terrain minis

@Chris-tp2sc 15 күн бұрын

Most of those "minis" are 3-d renders right now. They have been shown by several creators to not only be unrealistic for molding but also seem to be vaguely related AI generated nonsense.

@goran2608 15 күн бұрын

@@Chris-tp2sc Yes, I am very much not a fan of the full embracement of AI art by Awaken Realms, one of the reasons I didn't back dragon eclipse, the card art just looked the same to me, also, the constant lack of a rulebook in these campaigns isn't helping, it became a norm not to have it. I must admit, I backed Nemesis Retaliation because I really liked the previous ones, but I am starting to get more and more carefull when backing AR campaigns.

@toddcontino7271 15 күн бұрын

@@goran2608 as far as the rule book thing goes, I actually like the changes they’ve been making to Retaliation and Stalker both. Not that it makes it ok, but they do have a smart team that seems to do things in alignment with my liking more often than not. Fwiw

@Chris-tp2sc 15 күн бұрын

Take a shot every time Chris says "Fill that hole."

@nte2336 15 күн бұрын

it's just feels like a mess to me like all the hunters doens't really fir in a theme

@neilwoodbridge8232 14 күн бұрын

It's all about perspective

@sebastianobranca4996 15 күн бұрын

Check-out Blood, by Ludus Magnus Studio for something similiar!

@leekvi 14 күн бұрын

I’m not saying Fomo isn’t real when it comes to crowdfunding, but I think people forget that crowdfunding is not a store. You are not buying something, you are investing in an idea. If you don’t like the idea, or dont like the possible path the idea can take, don’t invest.

@darrenwoodman6656 14 күн бұрын

Cost me almost $900au for Tanares. Hope it's worth it.

@darrenwoodman6656 14 күн бұрын

Everyone said it was absolutely worth it.

@orqade 15 күн бұрын

Why nobody mentions the great wall? In my opinion it's the best creation of AR, fairly short rulebook, depth without much mechanics overhead and a valuable expansion. Unfortunately AR switched their compass since nemesis LD just take a look at their newer miniatures compared to older ones to see the difference between the beauty in small details vs "just add more details"

@bassmeo3937 14 күн бұрын

I agree that TGW doesn't get enough love. But I'm not sure I'd say it doesn't have much mechanics overhead. Anyway, clearly they are going with what their biggest audience wants at this point. I dropped out of that boat a while back.

@darrenwoodman6656 14 күн бұрын

Nothing in the glass at all

@Faxmachine15 15 күн бұрын

I backed at first then cancel my pledge,

@CJ-kw1cz 15 күн бұрын

I remember in the 80s my dad booked us a hotel in which their pamphlet showed amazing pastries for a continental breakfast but when we got there, it was crappy off-name brand snack cakes from the discount mart! That’s NOT Awaken Realms but some kickstarters…

@jasons.9389 15 күн бұрын

Chris... I love you... but hate you!!! Oh why do make me question my desires!!! Why do you torment me so... But my wife, she thinks you're an angel watching over our bank account. Another cancelled pledge! some classic Queen to sum it all up, "And another one gone, and another one gone, another one bites the dust, yeah!!!

@danieldouglasclemens 15 күн бұрын

After getting burned too often by Awaiting Realms, I won't back any games of this company anymore. Period! It is a known fact by now, that they sell a rough idea and need YEARS until they eventually deliver a "game". Is it what you expected? Most likely no, as they didn't actually explain any real gameplay loops or mechanics. And if they did, it is most likely gonna change. Treating LANG backers as an afterthought and taking WAY too long for the translation. Too little testing and using QA as an excuse to justify delays upon delays. No thanks! Retail, used game or gladly skipping it.

@zenster1097 14 күн бұрын

Because if the game is a good game with great reviews (not one review but aggregate and it's well sought after. that drives up the value of the game and I'm going to charge more for it. the same for the opposite. if the game is generally perceived as bad, the value of the game is going to be below the KS MSRP). Why would I sell a game that is a good game that is highly sought after for less?

@nihilistick 15 күн бұрын

Grimcoven is getting milked. But that doesn't mean you're wrong.

@kaiser463 14 күн бұрын

🤣🤣🤣

@MrFirestay 15 күн бұрын

After seeing your video and the Blood campaign, I will cancel my pledge and go with Blood, it looks way better.

@luenarturoho1385 13 күн бұрын

AR the EA of board games??

@dougsealy199 14 күн бұрын

I was pretty hyped but the passed 2 weeks their promo went stale and they just added stuff they weren’t going to and xtra mini so money money money and where is the Victorian style stuff? I dropped this project

@Titanicus_ 15 күн бұрын

Sponsored videos hiding the fact that there is no gameplay. AI art is looking like a disaster. Awaken Realms Realms using real artists to fix AI work instead of using real artists to sell a game. Awaken Realms are now full blown Kardashians of the Boardgame World. They might as well call be Disaster Realms. Selling $2M worth of cringe hype to fan boys in 8-12 monthly payments 💀💀

@nihilistick 15 күн бұрын

You are correct, however, people are still pledging millions, unfortunately. Grimcoven looks cool but at the same time that AI art is so soulless. It looks like concept art.

@Chris-tp2sc 15 күн бұрын

Grim Coven looks like a slow-motion trainwreck. The comments on both the GF and BGG page are full of stans hoping that X will improve post campaign. They are spending 4-5 hundred on a game with no rulebook or finished gameplay. That is not even discussing the poor quality AI art and likely AI storytelling. NO THANKS.

@toddcontino7271 15 күн бұрын

I had backed this. The price is right for sure. But….i just got Primal and if I had to choose one, it would be Primal. But…both?? 🤔

@jedisparky 15 күн бұрын

All in, and I'm really looking forward to playing it.

@steveskatzes7188 14 күн бұрын

Meh just getting tired of waiting for games. Alot of money tied up, nothing to show for it. I have a feeling this would be loke Etherfields. Good concept, craptacular execution.

@Taker597 14 күн бұрын

Prototype was ass. Simple as that. Company shouldn't be rewarded for that shit.

@gregmahler9506 15 күн бұрын

$59 is hard to pass on for a game like this, a game that could rock or could flop. From the playthrough I saw from Rolling Solo, I saw enough to think it will be good.

@luisecmf 14 күн бұрын

What did you like about it?

@gregmahler9506 14 күн бұрын

@@luisecmf - I played a game called Ghostbusters: Blackout that used a similar dice allocation mechanism as well as allowing cooperation to share dice with others. I really enjoy that style of play. I like how the XP track is similar to Cthulhu: Death May Die, which provides tension by scaling the enemies up to your power as you progress. Grimcoven does this by making that event deck have worse and worse effects the more XP you gain. I also like that your damage is deterministic but the dice you roll and random skills you acquire can make things interesting. I like how, similar to C:DMD (again) each battle on the same map can be drastically different with a different boss. All in all, I think this is going to be a winner.

@bcantui 15 күн бұрын

Gotta admit Blood looks a lot better than Grimcoven. Plus they are not using ANY AI art

@kaiser463 14 күн бұрын

Sorry, i'm all in 🤡👌🏾

@jhowd78 15 күн бұрын

Second thought. No one really cares about AI because damn near everything is going to be AI. It's really us trying to deny it until we have no choice and everyone has to pivot on it. Publishers might dig in their heels, but that may get them left behind on delivery windows.

@jhowd78 15 күн бұрын

So do you think that all publishers should have a complete finished rulebook, all play testing, and at least two or three scenarios at launch? What's the realistic minimums at this point. Awaken Realms sends playable prototypes with enough content to learn and show the game. If you play lighter games of course it will show up damn near ready to print. To be "ready to print" at launch just isn't smart business for any company. Maybe this is a Awaken Realms thing or if you're moving away from games of this skill maybe move away from covering them.

@EarthenGames 15 күн бұрын

I think it’s a reasonable expectation to have a fully finished product before launching a crowdfund to produce and ship it to people globally. A board game should be playtested completely and fully fleshed out before it’s marketed to the world as a product. Crowdfunding is different than actually purchasing something obviously, but investors (backers) like to be confident in what they invest in. The less solid of a foundation, the riskier the investment. Then it becomes more of a liability and less of an asset

@jhowd78 15 күн бұрын

@@EarthenGames I would not look at crowdfunding like this at all. Games will always need development and playtesting. Just by gathering a group of new playtesters in the campaign window it will strenghen the experience. You sometimes can't even find 20 to 50 playtesters for free until you run something like this. On top of that, the cost upfront is rarely anything a company can afford straight up. You write a 100,000 word book.....you may need funding for an editor...you may need funding for more art and to change icons based on more eyes on product. I think it's asking too much for a bigger game. A Kinizia game...maybe more fair

@EarthenGames 15 күн бұрын

@@jhowd78 I completely agree that having a wave of new players can help publishers develop and refine a game to a better experience based on all the inevitable feedback they’d get (especially since most new players are technically investors/ backers.) But I think most tweaks should be minor changes like stats or a small rule change, icon changes, etc. and not necessarily creating entire scenarios or recreating a whole system from the ground up since that means the idea wasn’t playtested enough to begin with. That just widens the gap between a finished/ delivered product and a product still in early stages of development. Not to say we should perpetuate instant gratification, but vast wait times aren’t exactly fair to an audience investing in a product

@martintomov7576 15 күн бұрын

What? Of course the game should be mostly finished, any future development should involve mostly balance and minor tweaks, as well as production. Instead, we have a framework of a game, with a few of the characters half-developed, major issues with procedural gameplay, a notable mid-game slump in interest, unknown balance with player count, unknown buzzwords tossed around with zero idea how they will function, like your hero becoming a boss fight, etc etc. A rulebook is a high expectation now? Geez, crowdfunding really is a new drug now, with people having to excuse its sloppy examples, like Grimcoven.

@jhowd78 14 күн бұрын

@martintomov7576 with access to a community of jew playtesters so many things can change simply by having let's say 50 to 200 more people scanning and exploiting your game. Then balance could be off in many ways and that could effect the story. If a rulebook isn't perfect day one that's fine. I'll take a WIP book over nothing. People go hard at these big companies but most folks are new to business, design, and structure of running a business. Buyers have continued to raise the bar to the point where the little guy has damn near no shot and is labeled suspicious or not able to deliver. There's still work to be done instead of dying on a hill with I'm right and everyone else is wrong.