I guess times have changed. Years ago, a friend's father, a machine shop owner in New York, invented and patented several tools for making men's hats. A large company infringed on his patents, and he won a judgement. The offending company had to not only pay him a substantial compensation, but also had to relinquish all of their inventory and spare parts. With all of this, my friend's dad had enough products on hand that he never had to make anymore himself.

I just filed for my first preliminary patent. I think all inventors should at least go through the process. I learned a ton, and not just about what I invented and the law. Sure, I may not be able to defend it if a Fortune 500 company infringes on it, but having a legal justification which proves I am an inventor is a positive professional discriminator, and opens up new opportunities and resources. A patent also shows that no only are you innovative and can find novel solutions to relevant and complex problems, but that you have the work ethic and drive to document what you've worked hard to design. If all you see is what things cost, you may want to take a look under the surface. Because in the end, it's not about the money, and I am absolutely better off with the experience.

Three minutes into this video and you've completely nailed it. 0:00-3:00 was my exact experience. It completely depends on everyone's exact scenario, but this seems to be very common in the machining and fabrication field.

"It's all about execution." So I should hire a hitman to take out patent infringers. Fair enough. :D

John keep putting out vids on business. I went to law school. Not to be a lawyer to be a more informed business professional. You get paid on what you know not on what you don't know. The topic of patents you and I are the only ones I have come across that actually know it really doesn't matter. With the exception if you want to sell the company and the buyer wants that protection. Excellent video. You are definitely setting yourself apart. Keep it going. Will from Akron, Ohio

As a 30+ year patent/trademark/copyright lawyer, it was refreshing to see a real patent lawyer address these questions and correct some common misconceptions. Two things that may not have been emphasized enough, IMO, are: 1) The ability to enforce patent rights is largely dependent on the value of the patent; and 2) the ability to protect with trade secret law depends largely on the ability to keep the technology secret after commercialization. For #1, if the technology does not have a commercial value in excess of $1M, it is unlikely that it would make sense to enforce through actual litigation. You will still be able to enforce against innocent infringers who just didn't know, but the option to sue someone who is knowingly trying to cheat is limited. For #2, trade secrets are a valid option when you can commercialize the technology without competitors being able to reverse engineer it. But if the technology can be reverse engineered as soon as the product hits the market, the value of trade secret protection is essentially zero. Another comment, the $20K (or so) cost to obtain and maintain a patent is chicken feed in the world of products with value. Maybe I'll want to enforce it, maybe I won't, but it's at least a bargaining chip and may keep some competitors at bay. I've seen clients decide not to pursue patent protection for "trivial" improvements that they thought were likely not patentable and of limited value, only to have a competitor file for a patent on that same technology and end up costing the client 10x the cost of a patent to defend against the competitor's assertion of infringement. Do that a couple of times and the economics of whether to pursue patent protection can start to look different. Great video. Not a big fan of the clickbait and somewhat deceptive (IMO) title. It seems to suggest that people should not get patents, and while that is true in some/many cases, it is certainly not true is many other cases. Like when the technology cannot be kept a secret and has real commercial value.

Thank you for posting this. Very well done - nice broad coverage of the types of intellectual property with specific information on what each is, the costs and time to implement and implications for enforcement. Haven't seen anything covering this much info so well in such a short amount of time in an easy to understand and entertaining format. Great job!

Thanks for the video. This is an interesting topic as I am actually a Patent Attorney and file a lot of patents globally. Utility Patents are not the solution for every invention. I recommend talking to patent attorney about your invention before commercialising as once you have sold or published your invention its often too late to claw back inventorship rights. Often a cheaper way of protecting smaller innovations is to apply for a Design Patent which cost significantly less and are much easier to enforce as there is no argument about claim language and the innovation only has to be new and not necessarily inventive.

As a youngster, I invented a system related to safety, I patented it, then the US military stole the patented system and installed it on military gear. I rapidly found that it was impossible to sue them and win. So, in revenge against the company that built the gear for the US military, I released all rights in the system to every competitor of that company and we engaged in “cross licensing” where we each had free use of the others patented things. Later we came up with the auto cross licensing of improvements, so the constant creep of development was covered. The firm that stole my idea and sold it to the US government is now about 1/10th the size it was back then.

Great video John. My team went through the actions of a patent to find out what you did. Also we have since discovered that some of our friends in Asia do not care about the patent at all and they will be happy to copy your idea for their profits!

As a former corporate commercial attorney, I find the legal discussion is a little anachronistic. I side with motion that small shops ought not get patents. My reasoning is that patents are useful for actions between manufacturers of products that are subject to mass distribution. Therefore the "age of patents" was pretty much the age of mass distribution, which was tied to the age of mass media. I say "was", because that age seems to be passing. Socialist states still have mass distribution, however surveillance capitalism is creating a reemergence of tailored distribution networks, and local brokers with local endorsements. To understand why patent law is pretty much useless with tailored distribution networks, imagine trying to rip off Matsura machines. You would have to work so hard to copy their precision that you would be a master tool maker in your own right. Their customised, continuous discipline of excellence precludes theft of IP. As Steve Jobs said, you can't steal excellence. Nor can you patent it. Therefore, if you are a small shop, or otherwise wish to build a business based on local endorsement and tailored distribution networks, it follows that your focus must be upon excellence, and the value of human relationships that endorse your values in the local network. Patents, and their lawyers, are for planned economies of scale. If you are in one, get one.

Glad you had an attorney in this video, as I have recently learned myself you need to talk to someone who actually knows what they are talking about. The law is not something an entrepreneur should be trying to take on, its not a problem you can easily solve by working it out yourself, researching on the internet, watching youtube videos or asking friends (unless they are attorneys). There is a point at which your (mine, the entrepreneur ect.) cheapness is a huge detriment to your business. I watched this video and came to the opposite conclusion of the video title.

Nice video, John. I also obtained a patent for a mechanical design that I was having made. What I didn't know is that you have to make additional payments to the patent office in order to keep the patent after it's been issued. I was very happy that I was able to keep the "total" cost of obtaining the patent at $15K (10 years ago). That is, until I found out that I had to pay the patent office every now and then to maintain the patent.

Enjoyed the chat guys, lots of helpful info there!

Thank you for the upload, John. Good points. I'm also an inventor and a machnist. I've been fortunate enough to purchase a small machine shop plug and play, where i do strictly my projects, no walk in traffic or jobs outside. l have one invention gone to market and is currently on the shelf. This video helped me on the question i've had too, is do I really need a patent. I've learned like what John pointed out, that patents only give you the teeth to go after an infringer in court. There is no patent police, you have to be the police and spend the money to go after that bad guy. Another is every inventor thinks his idea can be or will be stolen. Most of time, the idea is placed on a shelf and never see the light of day, but that inventor has that assurance nobody will get to his idea. John saying, just go for it, and go to market, chances are, nobody will steal your idea or copy your product. Even if you have a patent, you still have to spend money to defend it...

Really appreciate you taking the time to make this type of vid. I'd be interested to hear what your lawyer says about filing a patent to protect against future patent trolls (someone patenting the idea you're executing on and taking you to the cleaners).

6 years later…still an amazing video! Not only giving your side but bringing a professional to rebuttal! Excellent👏🏼

Thank you for covering this, I think there is a perception most of us have that patents are the path to making money. After extensively researching patents, I concluded open source for most products is the better choice for society and can still be very very profitable. In my opinion patents stifle creativity. Trademarks and copyrights are important though, I don't mind someone selling a copy of my product but I would be furious if they put my company name on it.

Patents in general have stifled creativity. I used to keep a notebook of my ideas for potential patent but pretty much just keep it now as a wish list of things to make/use. I'll never get a patent from the reasons cited here in John's video and from research I did 20-30 years ago. Like many have said before, it takes money to make money, and there is no better example than patents. Much better to just contribute as open source software/hardware. The Chinese see all ideas (patented or not) as "sharing" in order to make whatever they want. It would be next to impossible to stop them or anyone like them.

Greaat Information for those of us who aren't familiar with patent law... but it is really soooo much more complex than this thanks for the information and going thru the difficulties and efforts to do these interviews etc john

Thanks John, another superb info source. Ty is a very well spoken and knowledgeable guy, props to him for his smooth and understandable explanation of the system.

SPOT ON. Thank you for your deep insights.. I greatly under-estimated the preview thumbnail before I clicked, and then you started spitting fire lol. You rockstar. Thanks..

Risky video, but practical. I appreciate both perspectives. thanks for sharing, John!

On a tangential note, there also exists the Ⓜ (letter M in a circle), for "Integrated circuit layout design protection", you probably only encounter it when you play with strong fuming nitric acid and a microscope. It's for asserting the rights to a chip design in the electronics industry.

Thank you so much! Going through this right now. Love your channel, learned a ton!

This made me decide to push through with the production and getting my invention to market and focus all my money and energy to the creation part not the patenting part that is very draining, vague and has very small benefit for someone like me who is just starting out

Great discussion. . In the case of a patent infringement by a 'small' competitor you can get them to stop their infringement by the threat of legal action alone. In my example (a Trademark) I found a few companies infringing on my trademark. I contacted the companies and directed them to the Government site showing my registration and gave them a written order to stop. They don't know how deep my pockets are, but they realise that they stand to lose a lot of money if they continue (legal fees alone). So they stopped. The patent/trademark can simply be a deterrent and I'm grateful to our legal system for it. . As for my deepest company production secrets, I don't patent those ideas (as you said the recipe is made public); I can't police the inside process of a competitor's factory (I would need a court order to start). I have my staff sign non-disclose agreements (and employment restrictions) and train my staff on what they can and cannot discuss even in their social circles. I keep my production processes as an intellectual property secret. . As it turns out, a patent would be handy as banks do favor you if you have a patent (discussed in minute 25). . As a word to everyone - listen carefully to the lawyer (minute 20). Please don't get mistaken between copyright and trademark (I often hear misunderstandings on this topic). Also remember that it costs good money to file a copyright/trademark/patent, thus 'first to file', may not be easy. Some people want to make money from the product first so that they can file a patent later.... but there is a 1 year limit (life is not easy).

BEST video yet!!! Same reason that I got into machining is wanting to build my own products but I've been stressing about this very subject for years now. Thanks for the info

I agree. I spent about $300K on numerous worldwide patents and then when it comes to enforcing it, the large companies has setup the system so that it is impossible to defend it without several hundred thousand more to defend it. The patent system is totally screwed.

Paul Akers (Fastcap) talked about this in depth on his channel and had some of the same opinions. I've heard the horror stories from others where infringement has happened and despite forking over enormous amounts of cash to patent their product and protect it, the legal system fails them and they lose. I like what you said about using all of the resources and energy to crush the product in the marketplace. A great example is someone like the Grimsmo brothers. Someone can quite easily knock off John's designs, but it will never be a "Grimsmo" knife; and that's what people pay him for (aside from wicked knives). Great dicussion John! Looking forward to more videos from you in this style, bringing in guests!

Your $10k and 2 year time to issue figures are pretty optimistic, especially for any patent worth having. If you want a very narrow patent with limited claims, I.e, something for bragging rights and to hang on the wall, those might be accurate enough. If you want something that is broader and may protect against minor mod copycats and offer the possibility for continuations to make a patent family, you are probably looking at $25k to $50k and 3-5 years...especially if it's a crowded space with lots of prior art. If you go international it depends greatly on which countries you pick, but you should count on $80k plus. There are cases where patents make sense, and cases where they don't. You listed some good reasons not to get one, but it really depends on what the invention involves, what the market potential is, etc. There are lots of situations where they still make sense but it's important to know the difference and why you want one. Good video, that will probably help a bunch of folks avoid needless costs, or to protect valuable IP...probably both. -- Mike I'm not a lawyer, but I spent several years helping folks get patents, so I'm fairly familiar with the process, costs, and various reasons to get one or to skip it.

Hello John! Good info for anyone who creates, period. One thing that I can tell you for a fact is old sayings should be paid attention to more closely like : #1 - " Great minds think alike " ! In this era of creating, whether or not it pertains to business (of course it does), there are thousands, if not millions of people who engage in hobbies, work, or their own business in the general area that your interest is in. My point in the comment above says it all... THAT IDEA YOU HAVE.... 1) HAS BEEN thought of, 2) IS being thought of, or 3) WILL BE thought of at some point in time by another person who maybe doesn't PROCRASTINATE, or doesn't have the workload that you do, in effect realizing YOUR IDEA successful for him.... I have/partner in thirteen patents, could have had over thirty.... don't get caught up in that (JUST AS IN THIS VIDEO), do what you love, enjoy it, help others when you can, and save those in your data logger (brain) that you will see to fruition..... tick, tock, lol. I wish for you to have an enjoyable and productive life... good luck! Seth

This could have been hours long, would love to see more of this.

Thanks for sharing that, a great overview of the process, and the differences between copyrights, trademarks etc. And thanks to Ty for the great perspectives.

I'm a design engineer and have been generating patents for my customers or employers for years. In one interesting case I came up with a critical solution to a problem that threatened a $30M development project. We applied for a patent but it was rejected because a competitor had designed something virtually identical and patented it first. However I noted that the function of the feature as listed in their patent, while also a benefit, was different than the primary reason we designed it. I asked the lawyer to resubmit the patent on these grounds and it was awarded. But there are reasons to patent, just ask the Robert Kearns regarding intermittent wipers.

john great vid, as an inventor/engineer you talk a lot of sense. the point I would like to raise is once you get a patient everyone and there dog knows how your idea works, let them work it out themselves, don,t give away all the hard work. its easy to stand on the shoulder of giant's. .

Great channel my friend, keep going. I’m a woodworker but I’m always looking to branch out. Thank You!

I guess it's better to market and manufacture full steam . Make the money and get out fast . Move on to the next project and do it again and again. Then seek everything and retire. Good advice! Thank you

John, you should be marking both NYC CNC and Saunders Machine Works logos with "TM". You should also talk to your lawyer about marking all of the files (both Fusion 360 files and any gcode) with copyrights and license information. I know you frequently share those files (especially with patreon contributors) at no cost and that's fine, but a copyright and license statement would protect you from misuse of those works. For example, you could attach a license, indicating that non-commercial uses are permitted. That would prevent others from financially benefiting from your work without your consent. A license can also include indemnification clauses, protecting you from liability.

Very topical and informative. I'm "new school" Open source, and I'll build it for me, for my use, and I'm happy. I have a good friend, loves patents, has 80+ of them, very old school, but I feel that his way of "business" is approaching it's end. Thanks for discussing this.

This is an eye-opener and beautifully described video. Thank you very much for the Video. All the best.

Great topic We all have any idea and have thought about a patent but have no idea where to start and the cost. Thank you for sharing GW

I submitted a pro se patent application a few years before the law changed from "first to invent" to "first to file." After waiting two years, the response arrived. The examiner gave me 90 days to make several changes. I opted to abandon it. It seems best to be sure there is a large enough market to ensure economies of scale before pursuing the patent. The provisional patent application makes this possible without fear of losing the IP as a result of market research.

good information, clearly presented, thanks. I wish I'd had this clarity of guidance 15 years ago! I learned the hard way.

Great stuff. There is not enough common discussion about patent law. We all need continuing education in the law.

Hi Do you have some video for how to prevent breakage of end mill and other cutting tool on CNC milling machine Thanks

I think the patent laws and the way the system is set up was a great thing back in the day. Way back, when it was relevant, sometime before I was born. Like many laws that aren’t practical today it needs to be updated, possibly even done away with and an entirely new system put in place that is more relevant in today’s world, then again the patent system never was for the average guy, it certainly didn’t help Philo Farnsworth. A LOT of people don’t understand the difference between a patent, trademark, and copywrites. I would greatly enjoy a video on trademark laws and their practical implications, as well as Your (John Saunders) opinion as well as a professionals. I recently had a product blatantly ripped off, I knew that would happen eventually, and I’m ok with a little competition... but the guy goes as far as calling his product the same name as My product, which I have spent 4+yrs marketing, building the brand, and making it a household name (in the small niche market and circles I travel) which is practically synonymous with my business name. Others have made similar products but always used their own unique name. Your 100% right though, just kill it in the marketing dept and keep making good parts, the offshore guys are going to do what they want regaurdless, it’s a real shame when it’s a fellow entrepreneur here in the states that doesn’t have the decency to stay off your toes.

Just learning about patents & trademarks and all that fun stuff...thanks for sharing this. Definitely gave me a new perspective. Really like your philosophy on killing it on EXECUTION primarily.

John I feel as if you weren't listening to your friend. It seems like the whole time he was giving reasons why parents can actually be helpful, and then you would chime in and say "yeah that's right DON'T GET A PATENT". It seems like is a more gray area than you thought.

Nice work guys! Thanks for posting

Thank you! This is what I need to hear.

This video might be four years old but very relevant today for me. I've worked on a new product for just over the last two years and it's finally finished, I was thinking to patent it (and I already know it's totally unique and novel) but the reality is I'm an idea man. a visionary and an entrepreneur so why do I need a patent? I have and can continue to create so many things, I don't really need protection for this one thing. If I thought this new product could easily be turned around and sold to a large company for royalties etc... sure, then it would be a good idea, but this thing isn't going to be that big of a item. Having said that, one thing I did take from this conversation is the idea of making sure to put a registered trade mark physically on my products, that seems like a very good idea.

Your comment at the end about people not really out to steal ideas reminded me of "The Lean Startup" by Eric Ries. In one of the later chapters he challenges people to call up big companies and have them try to still your idea. Even if you have something truly amazing, most organizations and leaders are too busy with the work they have to take on a new project to steal an idea.

The "entrepreneur" reminds me a lot of the "Macho" from the Fun with Patents book 😂😂😂 He definitely should read it... Great book by the way. I could had avoided lots of mistakes I made with my patent if I had read it before.

Interesting discussion and valuable information. Good video, John.

One Word, Excellent ! Thank you for producing this video !

Thank you so much for this type of video! I kinda have a hard time finding good honest information anywhere about patents and if I should pursue one. This is a very valuable video to me because I learned much from it. Me being an inventor who is trying to get atleast one of my finished ideas into the business world, this video really gave me some much needed insight. I tried to pursue a patent before on one of my inventions, I filed the paperwork sent it in and only got it to patent pending status, but i was totally lost on what to do afterwards because i thought i need to file patents in other countries as well cause i learned that patents only cover the region they are filed in and i learned other stuff too that overwhelmed me due to the fact I didn't know what i was doing. I vowed next time i would just keep it simple and focus on starting a business and securing funding which brings me to a question if you can answer it, 24:35 in some situations i think i would need to tell some people about my invention especially when presenting my business plan and the product my business would sell. The question i want to ask is are non-disclosure agreements necessary If you don't plan on filing a patent?

The idea is maybe 10-20% of a product - as you said, it's all in the execution and the work to bring it to market

while they talk about McDonald's, all I can see is the yellow air line on the mill which clearly infringes the McDonald's trade mark!

My father was a partner in a farm equipment manufacturing business in the '60s and '70s. His business had a few patents just to prevent the competition from patenting their products and prevent them from manufacturing their own product. They did not do this on everything they made, just on the main revenue items. In their industry it was not difficult change a product in a minor way and get another patent, but they did not want to continually reinvent their already "Perfect" product.

Exactly. Say you have a patent and a big company violates your patent... They will drag out the lawsuit until you can't afford to pursue any longer. So the conclusion is that a patent isn't worth the paper it's written on. Unless you can license it out or sell it like Ty talked about.

It's an old video, but an interesting little discussion and still quite relevant. I found it useful, if only to confirm some of my thoughts but also just to hear some tidy explanations of details we all know but perhaps not quite. Good video 👍🏻

SUPER!!!! Great content, much learned! Thanks, Phil Vittetoe

You will spend the 50K if the invention makes you much more money than 50K. If the invention doesn't earn money, then you don't enforce it.

Wow! Lots to think about. Thanks.

It comes down to this you got to be better than your competitor

Awesome video! Thank you. One question about marking a brand "TM"... can you do this without registering and its considered common law TM? THANKS!

very interesting. thank you for posting this.

I agree with you. I got a patent 25 years ago and had no means to make the product and was not able to maintain the patent and I could not get anyone to buy the idea so I wasted about $6000. Had I talked to this guy then I might not have gotten one. About 10 years ago I saw a tool very similar to what I designed being used on the show How Its Made.

Great content had to sub 🙏🏽

I'm with you John, I'd rather spend my time looking forward and executing than playing defence. I've seen a lot of good companies fall flat by taking their eye off the ball. Ideally you'll want to do both but there are a lot of factors to consider.

Great topic! Thanks John

This is a great video on patents, copyrights, trademarks and even about fraud if claiming you are an inventor while you are not.

Excellent video John, Thank you for covering this subject. Matt C.

Great discussion. I got a uk patent on a musical instrument simply because it is cool when I go out and play it

Very interesting stuff here John. For once, I could actually understand what was being said. I have a good friend that currently holds several patents, and he's looking to me to pursue another! Thanks for posting this, it sheds some light on a very confusing topic! Razor!

I was wondering, if you copy write the drawings for an injection mold, make a detailed description would you have any protection of a design or invention? Though you wouldn't have protection of the end product but would you have protection of the molds, drawings and descriptions of the equipment that was used to make the end product? Sorta end around run on the protection that is afforded by a patent with a much cheaper initial cost.

Great topic John. Thanks to both of you.

best NYC CNC(IMHO) vid ever. Agree 100%. build it and they will come.

Really good, defendable patents cost $50k or so (I'm on several), I've heard it said that even good patents are merely a $50,000 gun which shoots $1,000,000 bullets (because that's what it costs to defend). Unless you can afford to buy the bullets, the gun is near useless.

Every time I see someone saying don’t get a patent…… They have a patent 🤔

I agree with much of what was said here - on both sides. I have always asked myself a simple question: is someone likely to try and steal my idea? Maybe you are small enough that others aren't interested in what you are doing. Maybe your idea is so specific that don't really have much direct competition. Something I was hoping John would mention is that you should spend your energy staying out in front of your competition rather than worrying about what-ifs. In business that's called offensive paranoia instead of defensive paranoia.

Actually a FANTASTIC.video thank you John..once again

Very helpful and informative, thank you.

Fascinating! Thank you.

Very informative. At 23:14 the attorney points out that if you want to pursue getting a patent, the clock starts when you first publicly disclose your invention, offer it for sale or sell it, put it on Instagram, etc., and you then have a year to file your application. I am unclear, does that means you have a year to file a Provisional Patent Application? Or, does that mean you must file for the Utility Patent itself within that one year. I am currently preparing a Provisional Patent Application for an invention that I began selling 7 months ago. So, will I have 12 months to file for a Utility Patent or 5 months? ...Thanks

Thanks John that solidified some of my opinions! ATB, Robin

Good stuff, much appreciated.

Tons of solid info, thanks!

Great info, thank you!

I'm with you John. Get in, get your money, then get out. Trademark is worth it though, because there may be many toilet lifting tools, but there's only one "Crapperjack!"

Under the Berne Convention, you do not need to mark the original expression in a tangible medium of expression (copyright). But if you do, your damages are more easily calculated, as Todd mentions. Copyrights are handled by the Library of Congress, not the USPTO.

I 100% agree with your views on patents. I have given the exact same advice in my videos many times.

excellent, realistic view of both sides- thank you!

That was very interesting. Thanks. I guess I need to take the "Golden Arches" off the trash cans I sell at the flea market.

Excellent explanation...thank you.

Very informative, thank you!

Thanks John!! This was very informative about the Patent process. Tell Tye , great job!!

Excellent video, thanks for explaining patents!

I pursued getting a utility patent but not so much to protect from being ripped off but more because I found larger companies that may want to carry your product are far less interested in it if it's not patented. They don't want to be ripped off either. Also I found other production shops are not as interested in making it for you in the event you have to outsource the manufacturing if it's not patented. Again, they are not interested in being scooped by other shops.