Wizard versus Sorcerer: Who is King? D&D

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Treantmonk's Temple

Treantmonk's Temple

Күн бұрын

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If you missed part 1, here's the link: • Wizard vs Sorcerer: Wh...
If you would like to know how I calculate damage or how baseline damage is determined, I go through it in this video:
• How To Calculate Avera...
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
3:20 Subclass structure
7:04 Multiclassing your mage
8:13 Proficiencies
10:14 Spell Mechanics
13:10 Rituals and Metamagic
15:08 Spell Lists
19:56 Defensive options
26:43 Weapon use
29:12 Initiative
30:14 Other subclass features
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Пікірлер: 646
@leodouskyron5671
@leodouskyron5671 3 жыл бұрын
I see what you did here Mr Treantmonk. You are not really comparing them for a winner but contrasting them so that a player has a better idea of the relative strengths and weaknesses of both after the Tasha really rebalanced things a bit. You are not going to say “it is always the Wizard. “ TM: “The Chronurger wins” Me: dang it.
@k2k4
@k2k4 3 жыл бұрын
I'm baited by the title. Sorcerer's make better kings because they can succeed at diplomacy checks.
@Sharkakaka
@Sharkakaka 3 жыл бұрын
Wizards make better kings because they have knowledge to make better decisions
@R.E.E.D.
@R.E.E.D. 3 жыл бұрын
Bards make better kings because they can help keep the country populated.
@jeremywaters4044
@jeremywaters4044 3 жыл бұрын
Monks make better kings because... nevermind
@eldritch0golem698
@eldritch0golem698 3 жыл бұрын
Warlocks are the best kings because they are the best at using human resources XD
@CaitSith87
@CaitSith87 3 жыл бұрын
Fireball makes a good argument for peace though ;)
@Yvädastra
@Yvädastra 3 жыл бұрын
Wizard speaking to Cleric while pointing at Divine Soul Sorcerer: "Look what they need just to mimic a fraction of our power!"
@kylemcclary7434
@kylemcclary7434 3 жыл бұрын
Think cleric think!
@Booklat1
@Booklat1 3 жыл бұрын
Pointing at arcane cleric lol (i like arcana cleric though, way more than most people seem to tbh, it just has some weak lvls)
@lordvectra7821
@lordvectra7821 3 жыл бұрын
@@Booklat1 I multiclassed 3 levels of Paladin into an Arcana Cleric so my channel divinity has other uses. I used to dislike the dispel + heal feature until they added Aura of Vitality as an additional spells for Clerics. I also took magic initiate feat to get the Druid's Shillelagh to do booming blade/green flame blade + potent spellcasting nonsense.
@Booklat1
@Booklat1 3 жыл бұрын
@@lordvectra7821 you did some things I would too, specially the cantrips What I like arcana cleric for is a 1 lvl dip for monks. So now you get to run over walls and firebolt people from far away ( does booming blade work with stunning strike? I’ll have to check that on?)
@terraglade
@terraglade 3 жыл бұрын
me: Im gonna go divine soul sorcerer/eldritch knight fighter my gm: ooh, a bit of healing eh? me: =u= my gm: *looking at party of dps* a bit of healing ...right? me: *mechniacal laughing* (i saw a Legend of Korra build i wanna try it for myself XD)
@alexhe8891
@alexhe8891 3 жыл бұрын
For anyone interested, the Divine Soul Sorcerer has the following spell options Cantrips: 36 ( +7) 1st: 41 (+ 13) 2nd: 49 (+9) 3rd: 45 (+13) 4th: 22 (+5) 5th: 33 (+13) 6th: 26 (+6) 7th: 18 (+5) 8th: 9 (+2) 9th: 11 (+3) For a total of 290 spells (or 59 spells less than wizard)
@nemoanimus2193
@nemoanimus2193 3 жыл бұрын
Wow, you madperson, you did it
@peterwhitcomb8315
@peterwhitcomb8315 3 жыл бұрын
Spell Quality > Spell Quantity IMO. Not to mention when speaking about optimized builds between the two you are going to see virtually the same spells on each. That and I think Divine Soul is better than Wizard once you get to higher levels of play. The only thing I dislike about 5th Ed was they allowed Wizard's to "borrow" some Sorcerer features to make the game new player friendly.
@Mithrandork
@Mithrandork 3 жыл бұрын
@Remy B that, and in 3e Wizards straight up just got bonus metamagic feats every 5 levels. Metamagic was always more of a Wizard thing and it struck extremely odd when learning 5e that it became a Sorcerer exclusive feature
@jiiaga5017
@jiiaga5017 3 жыл бұрын
and yet you can only pick the same number as any other sorcerer, so that selection just makes you sad at what you can't take.
@ericpeterson8732
@ericpeterson8732 3 жыл бұрын
@Remy B but the sorcerer's only advantage over wizard in 3E was spontaneous casting. Not needing to prep your spells ahead of time. Sorcerers got more spell slots, but they lagged a level behind on spell progression. So you didn't learn 2nd level spells until level 4, 3rd level spells at level 6. It was like multiclassing without any benefits. Meanwhile the wizard got magic item crafting feats for free. Like spontaneous casting in 3rd edition, WOTC overcounted the power of metamagic. While nice, it doesn't compare to the number of spells known and the superior spell list. Sorcery points are great but at 1/level per long rest, they are in short supply. And you only get a few metamagic options. Face it, the stack is still in the wizard's favor.
@UltimacraftedArmy
@UltimacraftedArmy 3 жыл бұрын
As someone who mains sorcerer, I am so grateful for the Tasha's sorcerer sub classes, playing aberrant mind and clockwork soul has been a blast, if not simply because I get to know more spells.
@20storiesunder
@20storiesunder 3 жыл бұрын
Such good subclasses.
@override367
@override367 3 жыл бұрын
Finally gave us a bone, after Sorcerers just being an unmitigated trash class by comparison to wizards
@zaneearldufour
@zaneearldufour 3 жыл бұрын
I really would love for wizards to put in the work to create similar spell lists for every subclass
@LurchLand
@LurchLand Жыл бұрын
​@@zaneearldufour my DM agreed to grant me extra spells known for my dragonborn sorcerer because I am going really heavy on the dragon theme; so he curated a list of 10 spells between Transmutation and Abjuration schools that he felt were fitting for a dragon themed sorcerer, including spells from Fizban's Treasury of Dragons. The bump is really amazing to make my preferred theme not feel underpowered compared to other options.
@goblinking1349
@goblinking1349 3 жыл бұрын
17:52 Aberrant Mind Sorcerers get access to Dissonant Whispers. Dissonant Whispers is a top-notch level 1 concentration-less control spell, which can do a lot of damage from opportunity attacks. It's even better when twinned. It's definitely something I'd love on my Wizard's list!
@gabrielseller6434
@gabrielseller6434 3 жыл бұрын
Important note regarding multiclassing spellcasters with Artificier. When calculating your spell caster level to determine your spell slots you take half of your artificer levels rounded up, not down. This is the only half caster to do this. Due to this, a single level dip into Artificer will not impact spell progression for an otherwise pure full caster. Not that this impacts the final result at all. I still think it’s quite interesting. Edit: should have said spell slot progression instead of spell progression as multiclassing will still impact which spells can be prepared (an artificer 1/wizard x will still have 3rd level slots at level 5, they will not be able to prepare spells higher than second level as they will only be a wizard 4 at this point)
@adamkaris
@adamkaris 3 жыл бұрын
It impacts spells known. But no not spell slot. Just saying "Spell progression" is not true.
@marcos2492
@marcos2492 3 жыл бұрын
Well, an artificer can prepare 1/2 level + Int Mod spells. So (eventually, with a single level dip) 6 extra spells instead of the two a wizards normally would get, plus 4 extra options not on the wizard list (Cure Wounds, Faerie Fire, Purify Food and Drink and Sanctuary) So, you'll get more overall but you'll still feel the difference whenever you get spell slots you can use just to upcast and then have to wait one more level to actually learn spells of that level
@Quintal100kg
@Quintal100kg 3 жыл бұрын
It will not impact spell slots progression, but it WILL impact spells progression and it is a bigger deal anyway
@benjoffe948
@benjoffe948 3 жыл бұрын
Only issue is that spells known/prepared/all that progression ignores any multiclassing, so you still get the spells for a given spell slot level above 1st a level later with a 1 level dip, even if your spell SLOT progression does not lag behind. In other words: You get Fireball and such late if you multiclass. Accessible spell progression is no the same as spell slot progression.
@gabrielseller6434
@gabrielseller6434 3 жыл бұрын
@@benjoffe948 thanks for pointing this out, I’ve amended the original comment to clarify
@marc0s158
@marc0s158 3 жыл бұрын
"Which is king?" Immediately shows a wizard with a crown "Well that answers that"
@alexanderabramov2719
@alexanderabramov2719 3 жыл бұрын
I hope Treantmonk does a video of “Wizard vs X” for every class so we can refer people to those whenever they’re being ignorant and claiming anything other than “Wizard is King”
@markeyestone9980
@markeyestone9980 3 жыл бұрын
Then he throws everyone for a loop and declares monks as the winner
@mojorn8837
@mojorn8837 3 жыл бұрын
Only one I ever hear get suggested as a close competitor is cleric. There’s some truth to that, but I think the insanity of wizards at high level can be game breaking without really trying that hard
@pedrodarosamello64
@pedrodarosamello64 3 жыл бұрын
@@mojorn8837 It also doesn't help that cleric starts very strong but it's high level spells are meh
@Multistrangedude1
@Multistrangedude1 3 жыл бұрын
Give a Level 20 Genie Warlock 12 days and it'll have an army of itself
@rubenhoelz1464
@rubenhoelz1464 3 жыл бұрын
@@mojorn8837 Depends on the level you're playing on and the subclasses. A moondruid on super high levels is also quite ridiculous.
@victorpilavas8369
@victorpilavas8369 3 жыл бұрын
"Where are the bards ? " "Gods don't concern themselves with the affairs of puny mortals"
@HeroGamingFan
@HeroGamingFan 3 жыл бұрын
why be a king when you can be a god
@ToradLP
@ToradLP 3 жыл бұрын
I think one of the discussion points that would be important could be magic items. The new magic items for sorcerers are by far stronger than the ones for wizards (disadvantage on all metamagic spells or a free misty step with each metamagices spells). If there is a significant chance to obtain these items (or you start at a higher level with magic items to begin with) I think sorcerer surpasses the wizard.
@iaincoleman5947
@iaincoleman5947 3 жыл бұрын
Great analysis, but you have omitted one key distinction: sorcerers are invariably sexier.
@neminem233
@neminem233 2 жыл бұрын
As a Sorcerer main, I agree
@xiadais
@xiadais 8 ай бұрын
How about Aberrant ones with tentacles and slime all over?
@arbitrary_mike7833
@arbitrary_mike7833 3 жыл бұрын
“There are a lot of really good wizard subclasses” but you can’t take them all at once. You can’t have the weapons of a blade singer, arcane ward of an abjuration, sculpt spells of an evoker, and the twin enchantments of an enchanted at the same time. You can take clockwork soul, a dip in Hexblade, and the appropriate metamagics to replicate all of those at once.
@Chaosmancer7
@Chaosmancer7 3 жыл бұрын
Sure, but is a better class found by having a single really good subclass that is all you play, or is it having a lot of different subclasses with really good options? I find it really telling that only three sorcerer subclasses were even mentioned. Divine Soul which makes them a cleric with metamagic. And the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork soul which are the only sorcerer subclasses that get additional spells known. So, there are only two sorcerer subclasses that seem like they can even compete with... seven of the wizard subclasses?
@arbitrary_mike7833
@arbitrary_mike7833 3 жыл бұрын
Subclasses are a fundamental part of a class though and the existence of weaker options doesn’t negate strong options. Yes, the base class has a fundamental weakness due to limited spell choice but they released a patch in the form of AM and CS. Also, you can only pick one wizard subclass per character. So, listing off “pros” for wizards that cherry pick the best options from all of the subclasses isn’t a one-to-one comparison with saying “pick clockwork soul.” Subclasses aren’t free.
@Chaosmancer7
@Chaosmancer7 3 жыл бұрын
@@arbitrary_mike7833 I'm not saying they are free, but to even be considered for the conversation Sorcerer subclasses had to be limited. And in fact, only the clockwork soul beat the wizard's baseline spell list in comparison. So, sure "play the clockwork soul" is easy enough to say, but it could also be said that to even compete with any wizard build you need to play a clockwork soul. That doesn't make it sound like sorcerers can compete, that makes it sound like a specific sorcerer build can compete with any given wizard build. And it is a sorcerer build that relies on massive changes to how the base class functions
@arbitrary_mike7833
@arbitrary_mike7833 3 жыл бұрын
I think we’re saying the same thing? Yes, subclassless wizard is better than subclassless sorc. Base sorcerer is not good so WotC put in a subclass (or two if you count AM) that fixes it’s major flaws and bring it closer to parity. So, base wizard beats base sorc, but when you add CS in to the mix then you can be close to parity AND have more options for cool tricks via metamagic. So, if you want to be a good sorc then pick a Tasha’s subclass and you’ll be close to on par with a wizard and where Sorcs should have been to start with.
@Chaosmancer7
@Chaosmancer7 3 жыл бұрын
@@arbitrary_mike7833 We are pretty close. I just thought it was weird that people were upset that he was comparing multiple wizard subclasses to the Clockwork, when to me it seemed more like the clockwork was the only one even close enough to make comparing them worthwhile. It isn't a matter of "you can't be multiple subclasses" it is a matter of only a single (maybe two) subclass reaching parity.
@neileddy6159
@neileddy6159 3 жыл бұрын
A few things, the reliance on war mage for initiative I think is slightly overblown especially because it negates your gish bladesinger, also Many of the wizard wins for subclasses were distributed, while the sorc ones were all condensed, the two new subclasses get ALL of the advantages, making either of them more powerful than any single wizard subclass. Then lastly the big one not accounted for is that a huge percentage of the game is social and cha dominates int in this category. With these in mind, in the narrow window that utilizes just these two sub classes, I think sorc takes the crown. This coming from someone who has mained many wizards in the past and loves wizards.
@aydensauvageau9393
@aydensauvageau9393 3 жыл бұрын
I personally disagree just on the factor of divination wizard being better than any of the sorc subclasses Also, sorcerer subclasses outside of the 2 in tashas are worse than every wizard subclass outside of transmutation, your average wizard is significantly better than an average sorcerer, because sorc really relying on two subclasses too be good is a huge weakness
@danbrown8731
@danbrown8731 3 жыл бұрын
Agreed Cha is the most versatile SAD in the game. One dip into hexblade and a background with thieves tools you can play almost any role in the game
@fasterpet
@fasterpet 3 жыл бұрын
Tldr, I would say sorc is king hands down. You cant beat the usefulness of metamagic with wiz subclasses. I think the hand-waving of divine soul for spells options is a serious miss. While I do agree that the downside of the divine soul vs sorc is the number of spells known, the effectiveness of the cleric spell list in addition to sorc is far better. Rather than trying to prepare a lot of spells that won't be effective, the divine soul has options that are always effective. The divine soul has the party face, healing and buff options (and I'd argue they are also better blasters) that the wizard can't do. The wizard has a large spell selection, but they are only useful for crowd control and aoe damage. And the sorc can fill those roles too. The wiz can buff themselves, but can't do much for allies. Divine soul really provides better usefulness through bless, healing and restoration spells. If you give abjuration wiz a feat to help them recharge arcane ward, then any sorc can take wiz ritual casting, increased metamagic, or Eldritch invocations that can turn sorc into much better blaster than the wizard can be. Even without multiclassing, feats like spell sniper, magic initiate add to spells known but unlike feytouched or shadow touched, the casting modifier matters.
@aldoushuxley5953
@aldoushuxley5953 3 жыл бұрын
@@aydensauvageau9393 All the other subclasses can't compete obviously. But divination being better than the Tasha Sorcerers? You serious?
@franciszekbalcerowski1814
@franciszekbalcerowski1814 3 жыл бұрын
Have you heard of our lord and saviour Chron? Also, many of the Wizard subs get really powerful gimmicks on top of being Wizards. I still believe Wizards are on top.
@mojorn8837
@mojorn8837 3 жыл бұрын
“To get armor agathys they need to take a feat” or play a mark of warding dwarf and become the arcane battle-rager, the merging of dwarven tradition and magical advancements! There’s magic in this beard!
@Spectrulus
@Spectrulus 3 жыл бұрын
That's my kind of wizard.
@mojorn8837
@mojorn8837 3 жыл бұрын
@@Spectrulus a fellow fan of fine dwarven culture I see
@Booklat1
@Booklat1 3 жыл бұрын
That's pretty much my abjurer and let me tell you, he does not go down easily I just learned contingency and having an extra 25 HP on top of ward and ANOTHER armor of agathys is GOOD
@mickthelick5788
@mickthelick5788 3 жыл бұрын
Most DM's don't allow Eberon Race unless playing an Eberon campaign. For me, this falls into the same category as the Chronurgist. If you can use them they are powerful but they don't really fit into the normal comparisons that Chris is making here.
@Booklat1
@Booklat1 3 жыл бұрын
@@mickthelick5788 the difference being Chronurgist is totally broken while these races are just good (some aren’t even good tbh)
@Leydenification
@Leydenification 3 жыл бұрын
I can't decide if I agree or not. I have never played in a campaign in the last 8 years where I have hit over level 14 so the Aberrant and Clockwork spell advantage along with the meta magic flexibility really speaks to me. Great video/analysis as always though!
@rothgartheviking858
@rothgartheviking858 3 жыл бұрын
Totally agree with this.
@freedfalchion9860
@freedfalchion9860 3 жыл бұрын
Why did I watch this? The moment you said you were biased i knew who you were gonna choose lmbo; fun vid and very detailed overall! Thanks TM :D
@backbyrd5147
@backbyrd5147 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the video, awesome comparisons. As with many new subclasses, I hope the added spells known for Sorcerers continues, so they continue to be tailored to their particular flavor. The well-matched subclass abilities with new spells for Abberant Mind and Clockwork are awesome too, always Subtle Spell'ing Enchantment is ridiculous. Also... awesome Harry Dresden art.
@chopcooey
@chopcooey 3 жыл бұрын
I really like the shadow sorcerer too, although overall not better than clockwork and aberrant, you get to summon a direwolf that gives disadvantage on spell saving throws to your target, as a bonus action.
@lholliday198
@lholliday198 3 жыл бұрын
I love your videos so much Mr Treantmonk. My two favorite builds for Wizard and Sorcerer take them and make them into something different: a CBE SS Bladesinger with a dip in Fighter for Con saves and fighting style that utilizes Blur and Greater Invis for defense and Offense; and a Devotion Paladin 6 Clockwork Sorcerer X that is more focused on buffing up its melee capabilities to avoid damage and to output heavy damage. I love both of these classes so much and look forward to your video on cleric! Twilight ftw!
@i8u2manytimes
@i8u2manytimes 3 жыл бұрын
Talking about weapon attacks while it does cost lots of resources, it is possible to use booming blade as a quickened spell allowing 2 casts per turn as an early level extra attack
@yosharian
@yosharian 3 жыл бұрын
War Mage is really underrated IMO. Up to +5 Initiative is amazing.
@saveordeath2308
@saveordeath2308 2 жыл бұрын
Amazing breakdown! I agree with you despite the sorcerer being my favorite class. When it comes to utility, recovery, and spell-milage the wizard is on top. But I often find myself to even use all my spell slots at certain levels when playing a full caster. The sorcerer can just break the spell action economy in ways the wizard can't touch. Twin spell essentially doubles the effectiveness, chance of success, or halves the amount of turns a wizard would take depending on the spell. Subtle spell makes you immune to counter spell basically, and quicken spell is amazing for gish builds. If your typically adventuring day has less than 10 rounds of combat on average, than I think the sorcerer slightly edges out the wizard.
@romanwagner8709
@romanwagner8709 2 жыл бұрын
In combat maybe, though they don't have the same battlefield control as Wizards. Regardless, they aren't very helpful out of combat.
@tuaa33
@tuaa33 3 жыл бұрын
Gotta agree! Both are great. Depends a lot about party composition which one is needed the most.
@TheMichaellathrop
@TheMichaellathrop 3 жыл бұрын
Two things, one is that those really good class features would mean giving up in other area's where you were comparing certain sub-classes cant have portent and battle magic, the second is gear, I think Tasha's brought the sorcerer ahead on equipment with the blood vial vs arcane grimoire and the other tomes vs shards. I think both considerations are worth half a point each, in the first case as you said about defense vs attack you can't choose more than one so winning in any one category means loosing in others, and I'd say gear is only worth half a point because many games will have non standard gear.
@corneliuslee7809
@corneliuslee7809 3 жыл бұрын
For consistent arcane ward, you don’t need to burn a feat (which is not free) to get warlock’s armor of shadow. Just ritual cast alarm, an abjuration spell.
@Idziemel1
@Idziemel1 3 жыл бұрын
That takes a long time - with Mage Armor at will, at level 10, it takes you less than 1,5 minute to regain all 25 hp of your ward. You can basically do it after every battle. No short rest required. With Alarm, it would take you around 2,5 hours. EDIT: I’ve been running a Tasha’s Custom Lineage "human" abjurer with darkvision and Eldritch Adept, and the amount of damage that gets nullified by Arcane Ward each adventuring day is insane. Eldritch Adept with Abjurer basically says "Get the benefits of a slightly stronger Tough feat, except you don’t need to make concentration checks, you can regain about a third of your life for free basically forever, and you can share some of your hp with your friends".
@toufexisk
@toufexisk 3 жыл бұрын
Interesting point, though it does take time to do so.
@Faircrow
@Faircrow 3 жыл бұрын
still needs 10 minutes vs 1 action, but it's a intresting solution
@maxobrien7366
@maxobrien7366 3 жыл бұрын
Did he note that subsequent castings of armour of shadow would only give 2hp?
@lucasmarquesdecamargos4298
@lucasmarquesdecamargos4298 3 жыл бұрын
Those sorc subclasses can have more spells known for sure, but the fact that wizards can learn spells from spellbooks and scrolls make them really flexible in that area, and I think the difference is even narrower. One can argue that it is not certain that you will find spells to copy to your book during a campaign, but in my experience, even in low-magic settings and campaigns, scrolls and other wizards are still a thing =P So that's just to add more praise to the Wizard overall
@inkulu
@inkulu 2 жыл бұрын
Loving the Harry Dresden art at 20:12. :D
@robertlynch1834
@robertlynch1834 3 жыл бұрын
love the video as always. I guess the thing is wizards are more flexible at the end of the day in what they can do but sorcers are better at doing specific things. Flexibility usually wins when you take into account that a game is a range of encounters. However I just cant get over how powerful metamagic is and when you pointed out in video 1 that effective sorcerers can completely end an encounter with their use of metamagic while wizards normally wouldnt have as big impact on an encounter. It depends on who is playing the class and what role they are playing.
@defensivekobra3873
@defensivekobra3873 3 жыл бұрын
8:32 Two things: 1) you only gain the saving throw proficiencies of your first class, so you'd have to start your career as an artificer for that to work 2) with one level in artificer and one less level in wizard, you would have as many spell slots due to a quirk with artificer multiclassing not present in other half-casters. Still the highest level spell you can prepare as a wizard is stunted, so it is only really useful for upcasting
@falionna3587
@falionna3587 3 жыл бұрын
On the subject of mid tier to high tier subclass feature. I think it ties into the subjective desire of wanting something cool later down in the line. Hence why the topic of capstone abilities comes up more than a few times. And for that having a feature at 18 can give that sense when all wizards can look at after it is their spell list. And while the dead levels is a new spell level, the same treatment can't be said for clerics and bards, who has less of the dead levels.
@MartialNico
@MartialNico 4 ай бұрын
TM: "Since most campaigns end at .." Me: "between 10 and 12, so it doesn't really matter" TM: "between 10 and 15" How convenient.
@toshomni9478
@toshomni9478 3 жыл бұрын
Great video. Same as it ever was. If you want to be a specialist in one or two things go sorcerer, if you prefer more generalization be a wizard.
@philosopherhobbs
@philosopherhobbs 3 жыл бұрын
Whelp, that was great! Just a great analysis!
@tiradentes4525
@tiradentes4525 3 жыл бұрын
Agree with most of it, BUT in the end you were combining every Wizard good feature on "one class" against CW and AB sorcerer. I mean, yeah Wizard have way more consistent and good features across there subclasses but picking one mean forfeiting others... While sorcerer it kind of have most of good aspects concentrated on Tasha's S.Classes.
@flakpinapple
@flakpinapple 3 жыл бұрын
I noticed the same thing. It really goes to show how much CW and AB pull ahead of the pack compared to other sorc subclasses.
@chrislieu6757
@chrislieu6757 3 жыл бұрын
Certainly a party full of wizards would be more powerful than a party full of sorcerers but I agree. You can't compare the best wizard subclass in each category against two sorcerer subclasses and hope to have it be very close. And yet it is. We will see how this all shakes out when TM does the class ranking for sorcerer and wizards. Aside from chronurgist, is there a wiazrd subclass that blows away the AB or CS?
@rothgartheviking858
@rothgartheviking858 3 жыл бұрын
He realizes this. I think the whole point of the video was just showing how good these new sorcerers are. For me Abberant mind Sorcerer is just crazy good. They just have more sustain than any other spell caster i have ever played. 14 castings of synaptic static a day at level 10. Who cares about spell slot recovery. i just feel that these sorcerer subclasses where not needed. They should have just added known spells to every existing Sorcerer subclass.
@tiradentes4525
@tiradentes4525 3 жыл бұрын
@@rothgartheviking85814 casts? I don't get it. How? Maybe you misunderstood the lvl 6 feature, it's use SorcererPoint x Spell level. Not 1 SP per spell.
@chrislieu6757
@chrislieu6757 3 жыл бұрын
@@tiradentes4525 I don't get it either. If you convert all spell slots to sorcery points, you still only have 51 sorcery points so you can only cast synaptic stairs 10 times.
@Redacted_Ruler
@Redacted_Ruler 2 жыл бұрын
You kinda forgot that. Wizards can get higher level spells outside of the leveling system. That’s HUGE.
@hangover89
@hangover89 2 жыл бұрын
How praytell
@lagg1e
@lagg1e 2 жыл бұрын
@@hangover89 I assume because you can copy a spell scroll into your book. That doesn't mean you can cast the spell though, unless you have higher level spell slots than from your wizard level from multiclassing into another full caster. That's the only explanation I can come up with and it's pretty fringe advantage as it requires your DM to reward you for something that's already beneficial to you.
@FeinryelRavenclaw
@FeinryelRavenclaw 3 жыл бұрын
I just can’t give up Metamagic. It’s too good for me.
@havokmusicinc
@havokmusicinc 3 жыл бұрын
Sorcs used to have a leg up when D&D still had a vancian magic system, but alas
@chrisgee8441
@chrisgee8441 3 жыл бұрын
Feats are not free... so in the last video where the wizard took a feat for not having con proficiency? Love youuuuuuuuu
@rothgartheviking858
@rothgartheviking858 3 жыл бұрын
Tashas 5th level optional feature for sorcerer has been really strong in my campaign. Sorcerers are just better at counter spell and dispel magic. This was not brought up in this analysis. Getting to re roll a counter spell or dispel magic is huge for one sorcery point. Aberrant mind sorcerer feature psionic casting is so powerful. You can cast these spells so cheaply and so often at high levels. I often find that the aberrant mind sorcerer can cast more often per day than the wizard. At mid to high levels they can trade spell slots to spell points so efficiently. Plus you can add another metamagic on top of that. Combine this with Bloodwell Vial and or God forbid a Shadowfell Shard and your character is monster. These new Sorcerer sub classes and optional features are a ton of fun. loved the Video and the analysis. It was well thought out and presented. One thing about the Aberrant mind Sorcerer that is not clear is can you up cast Psionic spells with spell points. They way i read feature description i think you can.
@Kai-K
@Kai-K 3 жыл бұрын
Abjurers get to add proficiency bonus to Counterspell and Dispel Magic stating at level 10, and was a notable subclass already because of Arcane Ward. In the previous video in this two-parter he talks about trading sorcery points for spell slots and vice versa. Spell points is a variant system for spell slot management, though, so if you're considering it as your base you'll have a different impression than a lot of people. That being said, I'm pretty convinced this is too close to call, unless you start looking at UA (Which Big T never does) and see Lore Mastery. If you have a DM that tailors magic items for a Sorcerer, it's a huge huge boost. Items don't really exist in the same class-boosting fashion for Wizards. If your DM is trying to give out equitable power though, you might see a Wizard pick up a powerful staff instead.
@fftere
@fftere 3 жыл бұрын
To the OP, you can't upcast. Base level casting with Sorcery Points.
@fftere
@fftere 3 жыл бұрын
@@Kai-K You are not saying anything.
@Kai-K
@Kai-K 3 жыл бұрын
@@fftere Okay.
@rothgartheviking858
@rothgartheviking858 3 жыл бұрын
@@fftere why? it does not say you can't
@dylandugan76
@dylandugan76 3 жыл бұрын
Very comprehensive. I love it. But I'd like to add another point in the Wizard's favor: player friendliness. Because a Wizard learns far more spells than they can ever prepare simultaneously, and can add any number of additional spells to their spellbook when given the opportunity by the DM, they remain far more flexible than any Sorcerer, regardless of which sourcebooks are allowed. An inexperienced player can quite easily build and play a Wizard that is fun and effective, even with a fair few bad decisions, because they can experiment with different spells and choose to stop preparing the bad ones. In fact, IMO, Wizards are the third *easiest* character for a novice player to make, after a Rogue or Barbarian. And a Sorcerer is perhaps the most complicated and challenging class to build effectively, or at least it's in contention with the Warlock and Artificer.
@rothgartheviking858
@rothgartheviking858 3 жыл бұрын
I agree with this. However acquiring additional spells is DM dependent. My DM rarely makes this an option or even thinks of this. If your DM is provides additional spells. This ability is amazing.
@dylandugan76
@dylandugan76 3 жыл бұрын
@@rothgartheviking858 For an inexperienced player, most DMs would be somewhat generous and might even curate the player's spellbook with some iconic and versatile options. Even if they don't, a spellbook will have more than twice as many spells as your level by default. That's a ton of options and room for forgiveness.
@fasterpet
@fasterpet 3 жыл бұрын
I would argue against this. I think cleric is a much easier class for new players. You get whole spell list to prepare from each day! You get up to 10 more spells prepared through divine spells than wiz and you don't have to worry about messing up chosing spells on level up. Just prepare new ones the next day. Wiz have to spell all party gold just to add a few spells. Clerics have better ac than wiz and can fill more party roles. Don't make new player a healbot, let them deal divine fury.
@dylandugan76
@dylandugan76 3 жыл бұрын
@@fasterpet Yes, Clerics are fairly simple compared to most classes. And they are among the best performing classes at low levels. Like most classes, they can fill a variety of different party roles, but they are not nearly as versatile as a Wizard in that respect. They also have quite a disparity between their best spells and worst spells. For example, a Cleric player that doesn't know better and never uses Bless, or Spiritual Weapon, or Spirit Guardians will have a very different impact on their party. They also have an additional limited resource to manage in their Channel Divinity. Finally, Clerics have to choose their subclass right away at level 1. Don't get me wrong, I think Clerics, Druids, and Fighters are solid choices for a new player to wrap their head around, but Rogues, Barbarians, and Wizards are even better.
@thatmikey3174
@thatmikey3174 2 жыл бұрын
I'd just like to point out that if you are really focusing on a sorcerer who wields a weapon, take the quickened spell option. It lets you do basically what blade singers can, but at a cost of sorcery points. It's not exactly ideal at lower levels since you run out of sorcery points quick and then have to spend a bonus action transferring your spell slots into sorcery points and well then you're loosing out on casting and a bonus action, but it is considerably less of a problem at higher levels. If you really wanna play a warrior sorcerer consider talking to your DM about making the font of magic spell slots to sorcery points a free action (as i feel like it should already be in base game), it definitely cranks this up in power just a bit. Hope this helps anyone trying to build a fighting sorcerer.
@comfortablegrey
@comfortablegrey 3 жыл бұрын
Awesome video, wizard supremacy was a thing for almost all of DnD 5e! The 33 minute note on classes and subclasses which are broken at low level: just ignore them. This is incredibly sage advice, because "broken" at level 5 is not the same as "broken" at level 17.
@scottbender9056
@scottbender9056 2 жыл бұрын
Loving the Harry Dresden art!
@gameman7871
@gameman7871 4 ай бұрын
I don't know if it's the kind of thing you do but could you do a video talking about the difference between Wizards and Sorcerers from a lore perspective? I know that Sorcerers have a more natural inclination to magic because of being descended from a powerful magical being and that Wizards have to put more study into using their power but that's about it. I think it'd be a pretty interesting video talking about their typical roles in both the party or world building (like in societies), personality inclinations, how they interact with each other, whether someone can do both (in lore at least), and so on. As far as I know no one's done a video in their lore beyond "wizards are old and sorcerers aren't, let's get into the stats" so it would be both really cool and really helpful to have a more lore focused video for it. (Or if anyone knows a video like that that's just gone under my radar that'd be nice to know about too).
@sessione2
@sessione2 3 жыл бұрын
This is a very vary interesting video... but, but! When you'll release the next part on the rankings for all subclassed in dnd? I'm so curious xD
@JamesBuschell
@JamesBuschell 3 жыл бұрын
Without a doubt, my Divine Soul Sorcerer with 2 level Hexblade dip has been my favorite character to play
@westarrr
@westarrr 3 жыл бұрын
You've said it best. Sorcerer comes REALLY close thanks to the new Tasha's subs. The sorcerer subs can't be given much more power than they already have or they would be too strong for a sub class, but they add enough to bridge the gap to wizards. It's just some wizard subclasses get that little extra touch on top that makes them better. Especially portent. Personally not a fan of divination wizard though. Portent is insane, but the class itself doesn't really add a lot of fun things to the class other than a numerical advantage.
@bigboyart1
@bigboyart1 3 жыл бұрын
A Fire Draconic Sorcerer/Light Domain Cleric with Twinned Spell and Quickened Spell would be great. You gain the ability to use your Metamagic on your cleric spells. Plus you get a good amount of fire spells. Also getting proficiency with Light and Medium Armor. And the ability to prepare Cleric spells. It seems great in theory. Can't wait to play one.
@robertbailey5239
@robertbailey5239 3 жыл бұрын
I think you overlooked a key feature of wizards in general and the Order of Scribes subclass, and that is the wizards ability to expand the spells in their spell books and write scrolls. That means that potentially that 100+ advantage in spells on the list could wind up in the spell book. The Master Scrivener feature also makes writing spell scrolls an advantageous way to spend downtime. Casting spells through the Manifest Mind at 6th level could add up to 300 feet to your range on attacks, enable you to cast spells around corners, or even send it in through a window and Fireball a room without even entering the building! Sorcerers got nothing that comes close to that!
@Starcoffin
@Starcoffin 3 жыл бұрын
I'd love to see this video but with Bards. I always saw them as a close second to Wizards so I am curious if they are now better of worse then the sorcerer. Or how much worse then the Wizard they really are.
@tylamcgilverson3923
@tylamcgilverson3923 3 жыл бұрын
You also forgot about the shadow sorc. They are extreamly strong frontliners between thier hound and their darkness. You got competition. They can cast in total darkness and with their hound using the help action or even just as a distraction. It all works really well.
@tarrickmerdev2324
@tarrickmerdev2324 3 жыл бұрын
I think one of your subclass ranking videos which includes both of these classes together would show the point more succinctly. Yes, the Tasha's subclasses for Sorcerer do shore up a lot of the problems that people have complained about over the years, which is good, but the power of the Wizard base class still dominates over all of the other Sorcerer subclasses.
@darthwikkie
@darthwikkie 3 жыл бұрын
32:04 "So where does that leave us?" With me hoping you'll do an update of your War Mage build so I can see whether you'd go Artificer now or stick with your Gith Battlemaster. =)
@danbrown8731
@danbrown8731 3 жыл бұрын
I played a hobgoblin artificer warmage for AMAZING save boosts (hobgoblin get an addition up to +5) and martial proficiency. His main attack at low levels was launching alchemists fire and acid using catapult. One of my favourite characters. Works even better with Tashas stat versatility
@keithulhu
@keithulhu 2 жыл бұрын
Matt Mercer artificially accelerated the power creep in 5e with the Chronurgist and his other broken munchkin shit.
@davec1
@davec1 2 жыл бұрын
I think something that needs to be factored in is this: the wizard’s ability to copy more spells into their spellbook, as well as the fact that the aberrant mind and clockwork soul get a bunch of pre-determined subclass spells that they can only swap out slowly for the spells they might actually want, whereas wizards have a more flexibility because they get to pick all their spells from the get-go (except additional found ones). Maybe also worth mentioning: sorcerers get more cantrips early on, which can be nice.
@lutherratashak2395
@lutherratashak2395 3 жыл бұрын
You can of course do a mark of warding dwarf ab-wizard. Get good con, good int, get armor of aggy, and alarm the can be cast as a ritual. I did play a melee mage with this build up of. This plus heavy armor master (thank you one level cleric-could go fighter for one ac and con saves). At low levels I was even casting “blade ward” and letting stuff die trying to kill me. ( we did get a bonus level 1 feat-so that helped), but was still working at level 5 so in theory would be find w/o.
@basementmadetapes
@basementmadetapes 3 жыл бұрын
Not exactly on topic but I'm definitely dipping my Ghostslayer bloodhunter into war mage for 2 levels. All kinds of insane goodness just from that
@darkpaw1522
@darkpaw1522 2 жыл бұрын
I want to see more class comparisons. It real shows the flaws of the classes in play. Which is much different than on paper.
@WanderingRagabond
@WanderingRagabond 3 жыл бұрын
If WotC put out an errata adding origin spells to previous Sorcerer subclasses, this might have had a different outcome. But god knows they love to keep their pet class on top, not giving Sorcerers any exclusive spells of their own... Hell, makes me think that the only way someone at WotC managed to give these boosts to sorcerers via the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul subclasses was by arguing that "it won't actually threaten the wizard's monopoly, let them have more spell and one summoning option."
@piranhaplantX
@piranhaplantX Жыл бұрын
I think the issue is that they don't want to overtly invalidate previously printed books. Which is also why I think they are very reluctant to add many more base classes.
@rhysjonsmusic
@rhysjonsmusic 3 жыл бұрын
I noticed that you talked about how aspects of the war mage subclass keeps up with aspects of clockwork soul and abberent mind but at the end went waffling on about how the other Wizard subclasses have powerful features. So in order to take those powerful features from other Wizard subclasses youd have to essentially forfeit points to the CS and AM sorc in categories of AC and Initiative which by your own metrics would result in a overall win for the Sorcerer.
@brooksington4696
@brooksington4696 3 жыл бұрын
Not having ritual casting is a big downside IMO. Being able to cast detect magic (in particular), without using a spell slot is a BIG deal, at least in the campaigns that I've played in. There are days where I'll use detect magic 3 to 4 times, and I wouldn't feel as though that would really be an option playing a sorcerer. Not to mention leomund's tiny hut, rary's telepathic bond, comprehend languages, unseen servant, phantom steed, and the occasional water breathing...Being able to cast ALL of these spells without using a spell slot or a spell preparation is a big goddamn deal in my eyes, and it directly impacts my appreciation of my character as a spell caster from an RP perspective. YES, you can take the ritual caster feat, but then you're devoting a fair number of your spells known to replicating the baseline wizard, and as Treantmonk said, "feats aren't free." I would go so far as to add the entirety of the wizard ritual spell list in some way shape or form to the column for wizard's prepared spells. Granted, not all of these spells are particularly useful, but those that are tend to be VERY useful often enough to warrant mention. I do agree however that clockwork soul and aberrant mind are VAST improvements over the baseline sorcerer, so much so that in some areas they can excel over the wizard, particularly in combat due to metamagic being very powerful. Which is a point Treantmonk made in his first video, just wanted to point this out because it's a point worth repeating.
@johneubank8543
@johneubank8543 3 жыл бұрын
In adventurer's league, ritual casting is not such a big deal - and other classes often can rit cast the main spells: detect magic and comp language. Water breathing rarely matters - rhory's is great but rarely matters. Unseen - tensors disk - alarm - almost never matter. Identify almost never matters and won't reveal some nasty curses. In a lot of other campaigns, it's similar.
@robertlynch1834
@robertlynch1834 3 жыл бұрын
what do you mean without using a spell slot? No class has to spend a spell slot to cast any ritual spell as long as you spend whatever the time is to cast plus 10 mins. Do you mean that at least a wizard doesnt have to prepare the spell while all the other classes must have it as a spell known to cast which reduces the number of other spells they know?
@brooksington4696
@brooksington4696 3 жыл бұрын
@@robertlynch1834 sorcerers can't ritual cast. Period. I mentioned not using a spell slot as a point of comparison between the two classes. I meant exactly what I said.
@brooksington4696
@brooksington4696 3 жыл бұрын
@@johneubank8543 I've never played in AL, so I had no knowledge of what that style of play is like. In the games my friends and I run, ritual casting is an invaluable resource, but clearly, by virtue of your statement, groups vary a lot. I've used Tenser's floating disk several times in the past, but I agree it isn't invaluable. Water breathing is admittedly campaign dependent. Unseen servant can be used in lots of creative ways, too many to list in a youtube comment reply. Rary's telepathic bond is honestly an incredible spell, especially considering a wizard can cast it without a spell slot. It's useful during infiltration, exploration, and possibly even during combat for coordinating maneuvers without letting the enemy know what you're planning.
@johneubank8543
@johneubank8543 3 жыл бұрын
@@brooksington4696 My point is that ritual casting isn't always "invaluable" in all ways 5e is played. In your way, it is. Zillions of us play AL - in my experience, it's usually not valuable or needed. Even Rary's - super handy - but not needed. Games run just fine w/out it. Modules are usually short - you can burn a slot - it usually won't matter. What matters in AL most of the time is respecting the action economy - fights are few and short duration - to be effective you want things to miss STs (heightened can be used many times - portent is great, but there are few, and you can roll both high). If fighting a caster, u don't want to be counterspelled (subtle). Sometimes it's hard to control things in modules - they're designed that way or a DM is tired of players making things too easy and uses other monsters, that are hard to control - you want to survive - Quicken and dodge or Quicken and cast Blade Ward. Wiz can go abj, but w/ sorc all can use these action-economy-respecting metas. Wiz is still great - but sorc, before forcecage , in many modules is actually a little better.
@ajaafive1384
@ajaafive1384 3 жыл бұрын
Metamagic and sorcerer spells affect each other in odd ways. Since it's more cost effective to use SorceryPoints(SP) on metamagic than on slots, But the (usually 2) metamagics will rarely work with most of your few spells known from your smaller spell selection. So if you aren't using your SP for metamagic (and chosing spells that qualify), Than you are using your SP for slots(only upto 5th) at a higher cost and with a bonus action per slot created/converted. Sorcery points, metamagic, and font of magic are all really tricky things to balance with spells known, spells available, and possible multiclassing (cause of how far the features are, and how much you have to focus on what you cast/learn to even use metamagic a couple of times per Long rest)
@rothgartheviking858
@rothgartheviking858 3 жыл бұрын
After playing an abberant mind sorcerer through level 10 i would say using spell slot for spell points is the way to go. A level 10 Abberant mind sorcerer can cast synaptic static 14 times per day. It can consume a level 3 spell slot and cast a level 5 spell. No spell point tax. Its a spell point buff. Thats crazy. Plus it comes with free subtle spell. So lets add another metamagic on top. Subtle careful, subtle distant, subtle heightened. Spell slots are just a battery for the Abberant mind to cast psionic spells. For every other sorcerer i agree with your comment.
@erikbell1723
@erikbell1723 2 жыл бұрын
I wish Divine Soul got extra spells like the two new ones 😢
@xiadais
@xiadais 8 ай бұрын
I think one per level (probably up to 5th like subclass spell lists) would be a good balance point.
@mcullennz
@mcullennz 3 жыл бұрын
Sorcerers can quicken and twin booming/green flame blade. And if you are a fire based dragon sorcerer you can add cha damage to green flame blade
@darkboyx7
@darkboyx7 3 жыл бұрын
another vid let's go!
@JoyTuub
@JoyTuub 3 жыл бұрын
It's hard to say for me, even after such a great breakdown. I haven't played either in 5e yet, but I have rolled up a couple of each for fun. They both fill different needs for playstyle. I think if you lack battlefield control or buffs, wizard is the better pick. If you desire more of a blaster, I find sorcerer more fitting. Divine soul sorcerer is my favorite subclass out of all the 2 classes options. But I'm a cleric main, and am bias to the bone. Great video Treantmonk!!!
@sabin97
@sabin97 2 жыл бұрын
you missed an important detail when a wizard multiclasses into artificer. if you take just one level of artificer you dont lose any spellcaster levels, because of the way it is computed. and you also gain THE ENTIRE artificer spell list, which includes not too many but some rather nice spells. you dont need to learn artificer spells. you already know ALL OF THEM.....all you need to do is prepare them if you have the slots of the appropriate level.
@eshansingh1
@eshansingh1 2 жыл бұрын
You only gain the first level spells and 2 cantrips
@rictoectol9814
@rictoectol9814 3 жыл бұрын
I’m excited for the bard run down.
@DarthBoberEXMinMaxMunchking
@DarthBoberEXMinMaxMunchking 3 жыл бұрын
The overall power and usefulness of the Sorcerer as the party member will depend greatly on how important the social pillar of DnD is in your campaign. If the DM tends to minimize/ignore it in favor of combat and exploration, Sorcerer's Charisma skills are a nonfactor, while Wizards with their more prepared spells and ritual casting can actually contribute to exploration, something that Sorcerers aren't meant to do. I agree about Clockwork Soul and Aberrant Mind now being objectively the best Sorcerer subclasses. Divine Soul is still there, the Cleric's list of spells is so potent, but you have to make sacrifices when learning spells - you can't have everything that you want, you have to pick and choose what to specialize in. For example, I often ditch Dispel Magic in favor of Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians or now Spirit Shroud. Also, you gotta get Aid and Heal and that leaves little room to take things like Mirror Image, Misty Step, Shatter, Disintegrate, Chain Lightning. You can't have all of those, you have to choose.
@silverjaiden2450
@silverjaiden2450 3 жыл бұрын
I would say that a Sorcerer Quickening full spells and leaving an open action to make full melee attacks makes that weapon use category more close than originally graded. You could quicken the concentration spell and still attack. and then next round keep attacking and quicken a blast spell while still holding your concentration. Works better with multiclass but still strong solo if you make a melee build
@harjutapa
@harjutapa 3 жыл бұрын
I also feel like Clockwork's Restore Balance is in the same ballpark for power as Divination's Portent. Portent is more certain but gets fewer uses (half as many by 20th level), though it is also less circumstantial (doesn't require advantage/disadvantage). I think Portent is better, but not by a huge margin.
@nyanbrox5418
@nyanbrox5418 3 жыл бұрын
feats are definitely not free, but you can technically pick up a couple of limited meta magic options as a wizard once or twice per long rest you won't be twinning power word kill or something, but like, even just one quickened spell per long rest, or subtle spell for when you are fighting another wizard, or empowered spell for doing like 25% more damage, could be really useful options at later levels, you may gain access to something like this at level 16 after you've already finished most wizard stuff, but, even by then it's a unique ability that you couldn't do before
@duelnomancy5128
@duelnomancy5128 3 жыл бұрын
For initiative I think some DMs may allow a Sorcerer to use Magical guidance at lv 5 for a reroll on initiative
@TreantmonksTemple
@TreantmonksTemple 3 жыл бұрын
They should be able to, it's an ability check
@bigdream_dreambig
@bigdream_dreambig 3 жыл бұрын
@@TreantmonksTemple But can you be said to have "failed" your initiative roll? 🤔
@duelnomancy5128
@duelnomancy5128 3 жыл бұрын
Do you think that gives them a significant bump over wizards? I have some bias to think it does because I used it to great effect in a recent campaign but only because most wizards don't get any bonus unless they can get wildmount spells.
@parafoxl7619
@parafoxl7619 2 жыл бұрын
Just wanna give a quick shout-out to people not wanting to Multiclass and choosing draconic sorcerer Level 1 they can get natural Mage armor (AC 13+Dex) due to their class feature. It's not enough to keep up with medium armor sure, but still neat!
@kaptnawesome
@kaptnawesome 3 жыл бұрын
Hmm seems a bit off at the end. Certain wizard subclasses out do clockwork sorcerer in some aspects but as you said you can't play multiple subclasses. Seemed like at the end when considering the variety of subclasses that could beat certain aspects of the sorcerer you would have had to remove points from the wizard to add them back with a different subclass but you didn't.
@Miggy19779
@Miggy19779 2 жыл бұрын
Wizards can also get metamagiuc now with the feat in tasha's. Subtle and extend spell are incredible. Immune to counterspell 2/day when you REALLY need that clutch spell to go off, and the ability to counterspell at 120 ft is great. Enemy mage thinks they are safe casting magic at beyond 60 feet, and they get a nasty surprise!
@absolutleynotanalien8096
@absolutleynotanalien8096 Жыл бұрын
A single level dip into artificer will only halt spels known not spell slots. And the draconic sorcerer youst has permanent mage armor and an elemental resistance.
@johnchance7836
@johnchance7836 2 жыл бұрын
If a was going to argue for sorcerer over wizard I wouldn't pick Metamagic as my main argument, but rather being able to multiclass with Warlock. Your pact of the Tome Sorloc now gets spell slots the refresh on a short rest which can be cheesy, they get Eldritch Blast and Armor of Agathys, three cantrips from any list they want, plus a powerful patron. The synergy here really seems to put this one option above any other multi-class choice either class might have available to them.
@patron7906
@patron7906 3 жыл бұрын
Sorcerers have charisma, which someone already made the joke about hitting Diplomacy checks, but that charisma also makes them better for multi-classing. Bard, Paladin maybe even Warlock could all benefit from Sorcerer. Wizards are not easily effectively MC'ed. Pure class, Wizard of course.
@InnsannaStories
@InnsannaStories 3 жыл бұрын
@@sharkforce8147 but the sorcerer makes those good. Sorcadin and Sorlock are both better than a strait Paladin or Warlock and a strait Sorcerer, probably. Sorcadin is insanely good on defense and gets some brutal smites (though it's probably bested by the Palock in that department, so eh), and Sorlock gets to cheese its own mechanics AND use the best cantrip in the game to deal quite a bit more damage than any other caster is capable of. Sorlock can also get ritual casting (it's the best option IMO) and still have 9th level spells, though it gives up some things to do so. It makes them incredibly versatile (able to cast rituals even wizards can't) and let's them do stupid hypothetical things with sorcery points and spell slots that, given enough downtime, mean you can walk into the next step of your journey like an absolute maniac with 30 8th level spell slots. It's dumb as all hell and most GM's would have problems with it, but it is technically possible. A 20th level sorcerer can also do it, but a Sorlock can do it earlier and also have Eldritch blast.
@elliotbryant3459
@elliotbryant3459 3 жыл бұрын
@@InnsannaStories -font of magic can only make up to 5th level slots. -And most dm's probably won't put up with coffeelock cheese. -Book of Ancient Secrets requires a big investment in warlock levels to really get spells a wizard might want [level = to 1/2 warlock level rounded up] -and you lose the possibility of ever getting 9th level spells if you take more than 3 levels in either class.
@InnsannaStories
@InnsannaStories 3 жыл бұрын
@@elliotbryant3459 fair, it's been a while. Still, 5th level slots ain't bad. I wonder how a more even split would do. Still, Sorlocks seem good from what my players have done.
@elliotbryant3459
@elliotbryant3459 3 жыл бұрын
@@InnsannaStories Ya they can make some really interesting builds! Just have to weight the opportunity costs.
@alexanderabramov2719
@alexanderabramov2719 3 жыл бұрын
On a more serious note, when I just got 5th Edition and saw that Wizards could now separated their spells prepared from spells per day, I was like “Well, it’s GG, Wizards win” (I hold a personal grudge against full casters since the days of 3rd Edition, it’s only personal, don’t judge me)
@dominicl5862
@dominicl5862 3 жыл бұрын
In an actuall campaign, ur probably gonna find some spells in scrolls or books. Its a nice boost
@theshadowbadger
@theshadowbadger 3 жыл бұрын
Perhaps I missed it, which wizard is better than clockwork soul sorcerer from levels 1-20? you mention several times that you can't pick multiple subclasses, but don't tie yourself down to one wizard subclass the way you did with sorcerer.
@redactedoktor
@redactedoktor 3 жыл бұрын
I think he ties himself to one subclass of sorcerer because it has the best chance of being comparatively better then a wizard subclass. Sorcerer all things considered is a better base class and all subclasses are more or so add-on’s. Wizard all things considered has much more emphasis on it’s subclasses and is meant to be built into a subclass more. The wizards subclasses are much more consistent but each one different, while the sorcerers subclass isn’t really much focus, it’s more or so the sorcerer class itself. Clockwork soul is an exception to this however and is quite powerful, therefore he uses it as the best comparison to the wizards unique yet consistent subclasses.
@petrus9067
@petrus9067 2 жыл бұрын
Because to even attempt to bridge the gap you need to be aberrant or clockwork, because the other sorcerer subclasses have very low spells known (and some are downright meh or terrible for most your playtime like draconic or storm). I think this shows overall that the wizard is more reliable or stronger in a lot of situations. And even clockwork soul isnt perfect, bastion of law is pretty expensive.
@Tom-bb3fm
@Tom-bb3fm 3 жыл бұрын
FEATS ARE NOT FREE FEATS ARE NOT FREE FEATS ARE NOT FREE FREE ARE NOT FEATS
@heilmodrhinnheimski
@heilmodrhinnheimski 2 жыл бұрын
Literally 1984 smh
@saprone8885
@saprone8885 2 жыл бұрын
This is how I would rate them: ----------------------------------------------- Spell Quality: - Near equal (Shield, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image, Hypnotic Pattern, Wall of Force) Armor Class: - Equal (Mage Armor + Shield spell, multiclass or feats to get more) Saving Throw Constitution: - Clockwork Sorcerer Initiative: - Chronurgy Wizard (Temporal Awareness, Arcane Recovery + Gift of Alacrity) Ritual Casting: - Chronurgy Wizard (Find Familiar + Arcane Abeyance, Phantom Steed) Metamagic: - Clockwork Sorcerer (Subtle Spell, Twinned Spell, Quickened Spell) Subclass Features: - Chronurgy Wizard (Chronal Shift, Momentary Stasis, Arcane Abeyance) Multiclassing: - Clockwork Sorcerer (Hexblade Warlock) ----------------------------------------------- Conclusion: Straight class > Chronurgy Wizard Multiclass > Clockwork Sorlock Both make good battlefield control casters.
@KaitlynBurnellMath
@KaitlynBurnellMath 3 жыл бұрын
I think it has to depend a little bit by level range. Clockwork Soul I think there's a pretty good argument is ahead of all wizard subclasses levels 1-9, which is the levels where I do most of my playing. Even their spell selection keeps up reasonably well in this level range, with access to wall of force, aid, armor of agathys etc. But then Wizards get their 10th level class feature, sorcerers don't, and then we get into 6th, 7th, and 8th level spell selections, which are still incredibly mediocre for Sorcerer (especially 7th and 8th level spells). Just...all in all, so many of wizard's advantages here don't come until 10th+ level. Better spell selection? Yes, but not really felt below 11th level. More class features at several levels of play? Yes, but only after 10th level (tied below that).
@phoenix_viridis
@phoenix_viridis 2 жыл бұрын
Wizards the masters of planning verses Sorcerers the masters of improvision. Since the classes are so close to each other ranking wise, best is a matter of preference. Players that prefer to improvise might have more fun with the Sorcerer class while players that prefer a class that offers more things to do during prep time might prefer the Wizard class.
@bobhouse2833
@bobhouse2833 2 жыл бұрын
Sorcerer are flat out more powerful in and out of Combat. The Librarian can't get a spell off while Subtle spell ensures every spells is cast.
@billburns345
@billburns345 3 жыл бұрын
Big Fan, but one minor point I wanted to make regarding the Abjuration Wizard. You mentioned picking up the Eldritch Adept feat for Armor of Shadows. It's actually far easier. Alarm is a 1st level ritual spell that is an abjuration. The Arcane Ward lasts 24 hours. So spend 66 seconds after you wake up, throw up an alarm and you've got your ward up, without a feat investment.
@elliotbryant3459
@elliotbryant3459 3 жыл бұрын
i think armor of shadows is meant more for recharging the ward by casting the abjuration spell at will.
@SirEliteGrunt
@SirEliteGrunt Жыл бұрын
One thing I will say is, depending on the dm, wild magic sorcerer is one of the most fun subclasses I have ever played with
@alanschaub147
@alanschaub147 3 жыл бұрын
Let’s have a duel between an optimized but single-class Sorcerer and Wizard at each play tier, with no magic items!
@oliverolson6578
@oliverolson6578 3 жыл бұрын
There is some back and forth, but eventually wizards get a simulacrum, then the contest is over.
@opo33333
@opo33333 3 жыл бұрын
Sorcerer literally beating the wizard with a stick while subtle counterspelling all of the wizard actions
@mojorn8837
@mojorn8837 3 жыл бұрын
Would be interesting, because I think this would favor the sorcerer in a lot of ways. Much of the wizards power comes from out of combat versatility plus buff preparation and ways to approach wildly different adventuring challenges, while a sorcerer with the right metamagic and spell combos can unleash serious nova damage or target crippling saves. Subtle spell against an opponent who’s looking to counter spell is powerful too.
@alanschaub147
@alanschaub147 3 жыл бұрын
Remember to look at all play tiers. I think an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer with access to Mind Sliver, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, and Metamagic could be terrifying to a Wizard at low levels. How many games have you played that went all the way to Level 20?
@jrg305
@jrg305 3 жыл бұрын
@@mojorn8837 yes, and the ability to spam fireball and hide in darkness or greater invis.
@TheBlackWaltz
@TheBlackWaltz 2 жыл бұрын
I beg to differ on the extra attack. Sorcerer doesn't need the extra attack. You can turn an action into a bonus action spell with metamagic. So you can use booming blade twice in one turn, effectively giving you two spells and two attacks. Blade singer can only do two attacks and one spell with their extra attack if they attack and then use booming blade. That gives the advantage to the sorcerer. Granted this requires the use of sorcery points, but they have a higher upper limit. Even more so if you include the charisma bonus from a single level dip into hexblade.
@panpiper
@panpiper 3 жыл бұрын
Hexblade warlock level 2, divine soul sorcerer for 18 more. That AC makes a HUGE difference, and Eldritch Blast is a really big deal, especially when you can quicken it. Use the warlock spell slots for more metamagic. Divine Soul so someone does NOT need to be a cleric. If you've got two decent damage dealing melee characters in the party, twin haste on them as the routine opening to any major encounter, then fireball or eldritch blast. Plenty of spell slots available for cleric spells. Hard to go wrong.
@tomgymer7719
@tomgymer7719 3 жыл бұрын
I think you're a little generous to Wizards here. You correctly noted that you couldn't get all the advantages for attacks without missing out on other stuff, and so discounted that as a point for wizards, but you didn't do the same for the defences. And I think that's very important, given the most defensive wizards, abjurers, war mages, and bladesingers, have less effective additional subclass features. (Not that any of them are bad, just, in your list of extra good stuff wizard subclasses get, none of their stuff was mentioned). Meanwhile, the best wizard subclass features in divination and illusion don't come with the defensive boost. I'd also say you were a little generous to wizards on spell selection. With Clockwork soul I really don't think there's more than 1 or 2 spells you really want that you can't get. Plus, as sorcerers can replace old spells on a level up, and wizards can't, wizards have to make a difficult choice at a lot of levels of whether they take good spells now or good spells later. And that is a disadvantage. A really cool video though!
@malusvir
@malusvir 3 жыл бұрын
What's this "replacing old spells" you speak of? Whenever one of my spellbooks runs out of room, I just start a new one and hire another caddy with all the gold I can't find a way to spend!
@AVJHalonen
@AVJHalonen 3 жыл бұрын
I get what you're saying but wizards not being able to replace spells isn't a factor. They get 2 leveled spells every level after getting 6 at 1st and as many more as they can buy/the DM gives them. A sorcerer can replace the one spell they want for another one they want, whoop-de-doo! Maybe some of the comparisons weren't fully accurate in the video but this isn't Clockwork vs Wizard, this is Sorcerer vs Wizard.
@tomgymer7719
@tomgymer7719 3 жыл бұрын
@@AVJHalonen Well this is the subclass video, so it seems worth talking about the subclasses. Also, wizards getting more spells from DM's is incredibly DM dependent. I have never got more spells from a DM in any of my campaigns. And the problem is wizards can get stuck with spells like sleep that just suck as you go up in levels.
@malusvir
@malusvir 3 жыл бұрын
@@tomgymer7719 you've never fought a wizard and looted his spellbook afterward? You've never gone shopping for spell scrolls with all the treasure you can't spend any other way? That's not a defect with the class, that's user error.
@tomgymer7719
@tomgymer7719 3 жыл бұрын
@@malusvir No and no, I've never been in a campaign where I have more treasure than I can spend. I've also never fought a wizard who's stupid enough to have an easily findable spellbook.
@Richybabes
@Richybabes 2 жыл бұрын
I think where the Wizard really takes over is in the 11-16 range. Their spell list in the 6-8 range is insane, getting Contingency, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Forcecage, Clone, Maze, and Simulacrum. Before that, they're pretty on par with modern Sorcerers.
@patrickmcathey7081
@patrickmcathey7081 2 жыл бұрын
Interesting if we were to make composite sorc vs composite wizard who comes out on top at each level range.
@johneubank8543
@johneubank8543 3 жыл бұрын
If sorcs take a feat to get something - "you pay a price" - but when wizards are said to have a lot of meta features, but it's one school only here and there, I don't see a similar proviso. Hmm. Honestly, it's so hard to compare classes and say one is "best", especially when campaigns vary so much in style. If I'm playing one with limited rests and many fights a day, I don't want to be stuck firebolting or tolling dead - I want to be a sorlock - at lvl 5, a firebolt is 11 average damage if it hits - toll is 13. A sorlock w/ agonizing blast and keepig a hex going (it lasts a while and can be used over multiple fights), is averaging 11 + 7 + 8 or 26 damage a round when cantripping. Twice that if he quickens, but that will be rare. Given 5e action economy, even tho class features come later for sorc, w/ meta magic, sorc is very strong early on and mid game, when most of us are playing. Where wizards pull away is lvl 14 or so - forcecage - sorc doesn't get it. But until then, the versatility offered to sorc by meta is so powerful - I find many players don't understand how to do this. Feats - yeah yeah - but take the feat where you get 2 more meta magics, wow. The flexibility of this sorc, early game, is amazing. TM, sorcadin - especially in AL - is so imba I consider it broken. Yes, the sorc part is weaker, but allowing the sorcadin to have multiple nova rounds smiting is awesome.
@GeminiLibra73
@GeminiLibra73 Жыл бұрын
Great analysis! To be more inclusive, you might want to add Queen to the title... 🤴👍👸👍
@itaymiara444
@itaymiara444 2 жыл бұрын
I really think that the wizards' spellbook should've also been a factor here. The new Sorc subs sure have more spells known, but I think wizard can be more prepared and versatile.
@PiiskaJesusFreak
@PiiskaJesusFreak 3 жыл бұрын
Considering that you can now take Sorc and Warlock class features as feats on Wizard, I wish you could do the same for 2nd level wizard subclass features. Enchanters or illusionist class abilities would fit a warlock nicely. Then again, portent is kinda broken feature to be available as a feat...
Love these spells as a player. Hate them as a DM.
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