The Horus Heresy is a very good example of why honest communication is very important.

Makes 150k Space marines kneel with a whisper. I ain't a god bruh. Literally makes them fly away with a psy shout. I ain't a god bruh. Radiates energy so powerfull that even looking in his direction blinds you. I am just a man. Word Bearers Legion and their Primarch : Rly nigga?

Dad: religions are bad Lorgar: builds cities to worship dad

if you think about it lorgar kinda the winner in the long run, he got an entire galaxy to worship Emperor as a god

I think even Guilliman was thinking that they were being a bit too harsh on Lorgar.

In this moment, the Emperor caused the heresy. He delivered Logar to the Great Enemy on a silver platter, and began the death of all he worked for. As for other ways to go about this... I don’t know. Maybe a softer rebuke, not destroying the perfect city, but filling his fleet to the brim with greatest of his orators of the Imperial Truth. Conquering alongside his wayward son, spending time with him, and forcing his compliance through more personal means. Get Logar to have a better relationship with his father, and with his presence, stopping the spreading of Lorgars creed.

Stannis Baratheon: Bend the knee or i'll destroy you Daenerys Targaryen: bend the knee and join me or refuse and die Emperor of mankind:yall muthafuckers ain't got a choice in the matter ya'll will kneel and like it.

"This was not fealty, nor worship, nor service. This was slavery, and his instincts rebelled at the enforced devotion even as he obeyed it. One hundred thousand Word Bearers kneeled in the dust of the perfect city, rendered prone by Imperial decree. A legion was on its knees." "The joints of his armour thrummed with unreleased strength, forcing him to endure this perversion of the Legion's most sacred ritual." These are without a shadow of a doubt the most important lines in the entire Horus Heresy to me. This is what made the Seventeenth my favorite Legion in the 40K setting. It is the moment, above all others, that cemented the Word Bearers' descent on the road to certain damnation. One hundred thousand warriors, all of whom would happily kneel obediently if the circumstances hadn't shocked them into inaction, denied the agency to do so on their own accord. That is the most crucial word here, agency. The one Legion to whom the simple act of kneeling before the Emperor defined their very existence were now forced to do so against their will. The one thing they wanted to do and they weren't even allowed to do so as an act of true loyalty.

The Emperor is right, but he fails here in two ways. He demonstrates godlike power, while trying to deny his divinity. That's like saying you're not a great athlete while running a marathon. But the primary failure is departing without giving the Word Bearers new purpose. It's alright to bluntly point out their failure. But leave them with a new goal. Remind them that they live long, and that the crusade is not over. That they have time and opportunity to claim the greatness that they were born to achieve. They have failed, but failure needs not be their legacy.

"Kneel." All 100,000 of you, because I think it.

>purges 2 legions, redacting their existence from history and mind-wiping them from some primarch minds >knows existence of conceptual entities in a dimension of energy, doesn’t tell anyone “It is the imperium of Man, the empire of humanity, enlightened and saved by the truth”

Lorgar told him everything, he is a god in all but name

I'll be honest, the way he dealt with Lorgar is probably by far my biggest "what the heck, Emprah?" moment. Not expecting Lorgar to revolt after the public humiliation of his legion, his beliefs and himself AND the destruction of his proudest achievement is to me one of the densest decision in all Warhammer 30-40K... that is, if the Heresy wasn't a case of severe "Just as Planned!", which I almost believe it was. Not that I don't think Lorgar made a few bad decisions but, you know... he was right.

Im Not a GoD JuST a MaN says the immortal, perpetual, immeasurably powerful being, as he psychically prostrates an entire army of the most powerful warriors in the galaxy. all doing this remotely, as well

The Emperor was fantastic here! I mean, can you imagine how set-back my brothers and I would have been if he had displayed any kind of tact in this scenario? No golden boy to deliver the Heresy to us on a silver platter, yeesh. Heck, we'd still be stuck abusing Xenos in the Maelstrom or messing with stone-age T'au. Really, full props to the anathema on this one, if there's anyone who could FUBAR a species transcendence, it's gotta be him. I might even let up the phantom itching for a few days just thinking about how wonderful this all was.

"While all others succeed and bring prosperity to the Imperium" Excuse me ? Kurze, Angron and Perturabo left horrible messes in their wake. Lorgar was slow, but like Guilliman, he was focusing on long term success. That is quite the double standard.

I'd say Magnus from If the Emperor Had a Text-to-Speech Device had it right here. On the one hand Emps says he isn't a god. And on the other hand, he says this while doing every conceivable thing that defines a Gnostic god. In fact, just about the only thing that separated Emps from the traditional gnostic version of a god at that point was that he did not derive strength from worship- which he then proceeded to do after getting put on the Golden Throne. Also, he offered no supporting arguments. He just tried to get his way by bullying and humiliating Lorgar- not nice, but absolutely consistent with Old Testament godlike behavior. The logical consequence of his actions toward Lorgar at this point was not that Lorgar would stop believing in his divinity, but rather that Lorgar would still believe in it- and come to hate him for lying about it. Which he did.

This my friends is where the Heresy really starts. And you will need more than a heavy bolter for this Heresy. Erebus and Kor Phaeron would never have been able to turn Lorgar bad had the Emperor not been so heavy handed in his censure. Even Leman Russ thought this was a bad idea. People should check out part 2 of the Death of Hope, really well done scene of the Word Bearer legion forced to its knees in the ashes of Monarchia.

After reading Dark Imperium: Plague War, this was mirrored when Guillman was disciplining frater Matthew.

I'm not a god, but kneel before me and bask in my glory. Good one Big E.

I felt sorry for Lorgar here!

The first heretic was one of the best book imo.

Much as I dont like Lorgar, as with many of the traitor promarchs the emperor really did not know how to handle them

You have to see the irony, "Iam just a man" talking to his son across the mass expanse of space, clad in golden armour in a more than angelic vision ! What is more God like than that ?

I think the reason why the Emperor didn't pick a different primarch like Vulkan or Sanguinius, is because they would likely outright refuse such harsh methods. Whereas those like Angron or Mortarion would go too far. The Ultramarines were the same size as the Word Bearers and what they were supposed to be. Plus Gulliman would be both tactful but not harsh. And even he regrets the deed.

The entire Horus Heresy is really a story about a man not knowing how to be a father.

Imagine this as a dinner table scenario when Big E chastises Lorgar, Magnus, or any of his sons really. Big E - I am not a god boys. Now eat your food and no more worship or psyker shenanigans from either of you. Lorgar - Dad, you have a literal halo around your head rn. Magnus - And you're not even really here anyways. You're just using your psyker abilities to project your image from the garage...we could help in there you know. Big E - DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO!

Biologically Immortal, Comparatively All Powerful Individual: Genetically engineers a super soldier to possess strength and charisma only matched by his fanaticism, then punishes said super soldier for behaving as intended and being smart enough to put two and two together and recognize that his creator was in fact a god. Seems legit.

I loved pre heresy lorgar but what he has become is despicable. Definitely one of the most loyal and devoted primarchs, such a shame to see him fall.

I enjoyed the word bearers omnibus, seriously felt bad for Lorgar. Gets raised by priests, becomes a priest, see's father perform divine feats, father claims "sorry son, not a god"

Guilliman and the 13th were chosen because they were viewed as reasonable and level-headed. The Emperor knew they'd take no pleasure in the task, but wouldn't squirm at it either - He could trust Guilliman not to hold this over Lorgar's head.

Just read this part. One hell of a beginning to a book.

I'm really glad I came across this channel... I'm 40 years old, and have been a fan of the 40k universe since my parents bought me the old "Space Marine" boxed game when I was about 13 years old. Through that, and the old White Dwarf magazines I got into 40K "EPIC" but eventually stopped as back then in Australia, especially as a teenager there was nobody to really play with. So I turned to the books, first the original "Space Marine" & also the now retconned "Inquisitor". In short, it has always been something of a passion, and over the years between things like the Dawn of War video games and different books & lore websites I kept in touch with it. Then when the Black Library released the Horus Heresy I drove back in again, buying the 1st half of the series and even contemplating getting back into gaming itself (though I really miss the Epic miniatures... having army's of hundredsof marines, dozens of different Mech units and even multiple titans in a single army was, well, epic). But now I'm adulting I have to balance my time & finances and with work and life's responsibilities I had to make a choice...I could only afford to really invest in 1 or 2 passions, and I chose Motorcycles, competitive esports (sim racing... another compromise as I can't afford a real second car for track use) & bunny rabbits. Yes rabbits. So I buy & read a book maybe once or twice a year, but I haven't got the time or money to keep up with all the cool stuff Games Workshop & the Black Library put out. I found channels such as One Mind Syndicate & 40k Theories but this one seems to have the most passion about it, and concentrates so well on the most poignant moments & events. Because of this channel I get to have a glimpse and taste of what I love but don't have the time or money to keep up with. So this whole short novel of a comment is to simply say thank you for your work. I've started and run KZfaq channels for work (Marketing & media) and am about to launch my own (a gaming channel based mostly on sim racing, though I'll be driving and reviewing irl cars, interviewing racing drivers, covering races & other events etc... think a cross between a Twitch stream and Top Gear)...I know how much work goes into each episode. So, thank you. I don't know if you'll ever read this but I'm sincerely thankful to you for what you do here.

You're going to be one of the biggest 40k channels brother, keep at it. I love the way you narrate it :D

The Emperor always leaves a choice I have noticed. He never outright forces his Primarchs to do his bidding. True that the 100k Word Bearers were forced to kneel, but that might have been just the sheer weight of the Emperors might. Should he have willed it, he could have crushed Logar in that very instant, and thus removing one of the key seeds of Chaos. His power so bright and yet why does he hold back on some of the most key aspects? I honestly think its because he does not believe himself to be a god but a just and fair Emperor. Because if he wanted to be a God, would that make him any better then the God's of Chaos? Who force obedience and never leave a true choice. Merely tricks and lies on which to follow, but never truly choose allow tgose to choose for themselves. There is a fine line between God and Ultimate truth. And Wolf, thank you for the amazing video and contemplation.

A father gives his gifted son Lego to build with. The son builds a monument to honor his dad. Dad has another son that the first son dislikes, smash the Lego monument. Dad chastises the son who built the monument, in front of the brother that smashed his Legos . Gee, I wonder if that son is gonna hold a grudge?

The depiction of the Custodians and their spears being in hands that would never tremble is by far the best depiction ive ever heard. I love it.

I love that the more recent writing has gone so deep into how the Emperor looks upon his sons and how he thinks of them. We've seen him have this warm, loving, proud look quite a few times now. Particularly when he finds Sanguinis, talking with Dorn and Vulkan when preparing to defend Terra, looking upon Jaghatai who was standing next to his father staring out into the void after they had argued. Hell he speaks to Kurze with warm, gentle voice trying to calm his anxieties before the assassin arrived to kill Kurze. These stories should effectively end the debate as to whether he loves his sons or not. I'd say it's a resounding yes. He just sometimes doesn't deal with his sons and their bs properly. Angron and Mortarion come to mind.

Sitting out on the patio, listening to this, and smoking a cigar.

Lorgar was right, humanity will always need faith and humility

You and your videos really are a gift to the community. Thank you

Good Leaders know "Commend public ,rebuke private" ... this was public humiliation ... Also from only 2 sentences i start hatin the smurfs !

The emperor, seeing the objective, but not the trajectory. Lorgar Aurelian, seeing the trajectory, but not the objective.

It's like Rogal Dorn said. The Emperor could make entire armies kneel before him using nothing but haikus.

Honestly, the Emperor asked for the great heracy...

The Corpse Emperor brought the Rebellion on himself, had he handled Lorgar Differently none of what followed would have happened.

For a man trying to communicate that he is not a god, he sure made himself look like a god

Makes 100,000 space marines kneel with a mere thought. The Emperor saying he isn’t a god is the most ridiculous part of this situation.

Ah May Favorite Channel , know I can Relax, Good Work From the Begging,May Emperor Bless your Channel 😀 !!!,P.S. Continue them coming 😀!!!.

The Emperor tips his fedora so hard that it knocks primarchs off their feet.

The First Heretic was the first time i basked on the full glory and magnificence of the Emperor, i still remember tears of emotion were rolling while reading , His majesty but also His cruelty, and that’s what makes the character of the Emperor so beautiful, his perfect imperfections. Blessed be the Master of Mankind, beloved by all

Fantasy based worlds (like that of 40k) often need a little artistic leeway, and generally I'm happy to oblige, for doing so often makes for more interesting lore & stories. However, I frequently struggle with the rampant and endless stupidity portrayed by the Emperor. He's supposed to be this (nearly) all powerful, all knowing, ancient being of endless wisdom. Capable of tremendous and impossible feats. Yet, he often has almost NO common sense. A.) The truth can burn, and not everyone is strong enough to endure that pain. Tearing down delusion can lead to resentful and spiteful people. I've learned that the hard way. B.) To be an effective leader, you must be aware of how your actions/words effect those under your command. You must be aware of how they feel.

Been a Fan for Many Moons now, Awesome to see ye Breaking 100k and Bringing your Fantastic Narrative ability, with an eloquence an an inherent ability, to not only sift and root out Meaning's & Details often Overlooked, or not giving the Gravity their Situation deserves, Ye single handedly Won Me to the God-Emperor of Mankind whom Loved, and felt as Close to a Father as a Being of his Magnitude is capable, but Bring Out his Humanity and Light, I believe Novels such as Master of Mankind and the Presentation of a Cold/Distant/Incapable of Feeling Emotionally Man, whom not Only Never Loved the Primarch's but saw Them as Nothing but Tools, to be Discarded and Tossed aside when they've Accomplished giving Him the Galaxy, which He planned to Rule in Cold Logic/Reason/Agnostic/Human Galaxy of Which he will indefinitely reign as Master, Uncompromising, Unrelenting, Cold and incapable of Empathy as the 👀 of the Primarches told a completely and irreconcilably different Tune of the Big E, his 🕯️, Majesty, and Inspiring Wonderment, of which Men and Demi-Gods would Gladly Follow to the ends of the Universe or Death straight in the 👁️, and the Giving of One's Life without a second of Doubt makes One 🤔▪️🥃-Cheers

And this is what leads to half the space marines legions falling to Chaos

The Emperor: I’m not mad, I’m just disappointed..

Uuuhhh.... The Emperor is lying there. Religion as much as I hate it, saved humanity many times over. It lead humanity to order, to forming social concract, to work, to standarts, to laws. It is primitive, but it is not useless, or just a curse. That is a clear LIE. He says most of this, because he is acting ignorant and hateful towards religion. He has his own flawed truth. Damn. Good writting. Humans are not perfect, meaning that he is a demigod and still only human.

Awesome

I think the Emperor sent RBG because he's devoted to duty. Period. other primarchs are as LOYAL if not more so (arguably). But almost ANY other Primarch would have escalated the situation after Macador was stuck. They'd have acted out of loyalty. RBG though. His DUTY was to do exactly as he did. His duty wasn't to chastise his brother or physically reprimand him. His DUTY was to see the truth.

I love how we see the seeds of heresy sewn just in the instant I read. Some hearts resisted the order to kneel.

Nice touch with the Children of the Omnissiah

I own the audiobook. And I can say this with 100% certainty. You narrated this better than the audiobook did.

I think one of the things that the black library gets right about the Emperor and his sons, at least from the perspective that they represent different aspects of himself, is that each of the primarch's represent a portion of him that is taken to an extreme. Yet untempered by the emotions that are balanced by other thoughts, feelings, and experiences that the Emperor can draw on due to what has happened to him over the course of his life. Which makes Lorgar are the more tragic in that he is the part of the Emperor who needs to believe in something greater than himself; but lacking the other pieces that the Emperor has learned to draw upon inorder to prevent himself from falling into nihilism. But that is also where the Emperor made a mistake by bringing Guilliman, as opposed to Sangunius. Guilliman represents Lorgar's complete opposite, whereas Sangunius embody's some aspect of the Emperor's being different from others while still having compassion for them despite never quite 'being' one of them no matter how hard he tries. Sangunius may have been able to help Lorgar to understand how he and his legion could be more Guilliman like while still being true to what they desperately wanted to be. So in a way, (at least to my head cannon) a lot of the Primarch's greatest disagreements stem from not having the appropriate intermediaries in the room to help them mediate the thornier aspects of themselves.

Lorgar was right And the Emperor chose Guilliman on purpose. He knew what he was doing. He has always known what he was doing.

One of my favourite scenes from the novels. Though the way the Emperor dealt with this situation you can't really be surprised the Word Bearers fell to Chaos. Finally when you consider the Emperor's powers he's quite clearily a god in all but in all but name after ten thousand years of being a rotting corpse he still refuses to die.

At the one hand I feel like the Emperor was too harsh with them but on the other hand, he is speaking to genetically engineered super soldiers so he shouldn't have to sugar coat his words. They failed him BUT he also gave them a second chance. "Let this be the rebirth of your legion". They could have redeemed themselves but they chose not to.

Lorgar: 'You're the best, Dad!' Emperor: 'Nah, but yeah'.

The Emperor might have been right if his Imperial Truth hadn't been a lie.

I'm listening to these vids while i work, purely for their background music

I think the first heretic was one of my favorite books. Argel tal is one of the best characters in the series.

To break their faith without retraining them, it led to them looking to fill that whole.

The Emperor is wrong. He denies being a God and yet, at all times, he acts like one. He demands unquestioning loyalty, he enforces compliance with absolute power and he decides upon life and death with but a word. He stands among the human dead whose life he has decided to take, himself far removed from humanity, and calls his actions the Imperium of Man. He is in fact a deity. And he himself, having lived through so much of human history should know this. Unfortunately this is one of those cases where writers bias and/or incompetence has led the storytelling down. They are so fixated on the monotheistic image of the abrahamic one true God, that they've completely ignored the fact, that most human religions throughout history are far removed from this concept, including the ones in the culture he would have been up in. In fact, the irony is, that the 40k setting itself is pantheistic but seemingly ascribes only one possible image of godhood unto the emperor, even in his own mind. While it is a great scene in the book, ultimately it is a letdown. With a bit more imagination, the discussion between the Emperor and Lorgar could have been far more interesting.

Allow the Priesthood of Mars to retain their cult worship. Also, crush his own son whom he created with all his unique traits, because of his worship.

Leman Russ initially thought the Emperor was a God and his people thought that they had died and entered the afterlife when they joined the Great Crusade. Honestly I would enjoy reading a conversation between Russ and Lorgar on the subject of their father, different as they are it could have been something for them to bond over. Or even with Jaghati who refused to abandon his people's old ways.

Imagine Lorgar explaining this situation to his psychiatrist

For the emperor's insisting that he's not a God he definitely goes through alort of effort to look and act like one

Wolf Lord SALUUUUUUTE!

best 40k book eva

Wow.

I can't expect, even with knowing what this man will do, that Lorgar is doing anything in the way of willful wrong. That's what makes it so tragic.

^While all others bring prosperity to the Imperium" Ummm....Perturabo ? Kurze ? Angron ? Seriously, is the Emperor that clueless ? Lorgar was slow, but he left a solidly prosperous and loyal populace behind.

I would say Angrons conquests count as failures too and Mortarion sometimes.

This makes one wonder if that "lack of good bedside manner" the Emperor showed is what drove the 2nd and the 11th Primarchs over the edge.

This is the moment that I truly began to despise the emperor of mankind in 30k, this and possibly the story The Last Church. Of all the primarchs Lorgar loved the emperor more than any other, and the Emperor basically spat in his face for it, amd denounced all his efforts as a "poison" against his "truth". This moment, at least in my eyes, proved that the emperor was almost certianly no better than those that had come before him, that he was little more than an arrogant fool who deluded himself into thinking he was right and everyone else was wrong and stupid, and truly deserves every ounce of pain, agony, and suffering that he is forced to endure.

It's almost impossible to convince someone to give up faith, they have to do it themselves, the Emp really should have destoryed the 7th legion and his son.

I get the soldiers anger and rage but they should have heard him. "This is what worship is." He is showing them what they were asking for in their world.

Maybe the emperor had them kneel to show them exactly what worshipful deference actually is, funny how Argel Tal saw it as an insult forced or not.

I think he choose gillimun because like he said the wordbearers legion was the largest save the ultra marines, so if things went badly best to have a legion of compariable numbers that doesn't take to much away from the crusade it's self.

A simple example of mankind’s failure in both sides...

He also constantly fights against The Four.

4:21 after reading master of mankind and dark imperium and also denying angron wish to die with his brothers and sisters in arms really shows to me that the emperor does not love his sons in fact he view the primarchs not as his own blood but tools to be used and cast aside if the thunder warriors are of any indication.

The emperor even using the word "truth" is cringeworthy, in hindsight.

The primarchs are just tired of the Emperor lying to their faces as if that is ok. They feel as if they are of high enough station to know and understand the actual truth. So the Emperor found it best to run his Imperium using lies, decete, and convenient truths to his own ends. Of corse it was for the betterment of mankind and our situation amongst the stars, however, these stories prove that he is every bit as flawed as his flawed primarchs, only more powerful and in charge of everything. So, you see, his mistakes or strategic errors are potentially the most potent kind that exsist anywhere.

You dare question the will of the god emperor, HERESY !!!!!

This, IMHO, was part of Emp's Plan to achieve Apotheosis. I back this Theory with what Malcador says in, I believe, Malcador The Sigilite, "The Primarchs were always meant to fight one another, resent one another, the Heresy just started the process early". I am paraphrasing there, of course. There was also the exchange between Emps and Ra in The Emperor of Mankind where Big E talked about seeing all possible futures, but not knowing which one was to come true. like a ripple in a pond when you cast a stone into it. You are never certain which ripple is the truth. Something to that effect. Big E, or Big D in this new lore, knows what is to come. He is, 100% to blame for what comes next. And, IMHO, he KNEW what it would lead to. Lorgar is the truest Son, the most Faithful Son, the most Dutiful Son, in mind, body, and spirit. Dad of the Year threw him under the bus on purpose. Without Lorgar, there is no Apotheosis for Big D. As always, just my opinion. YMMV. I think he lied to all the Primarchs. I think 2 and/or 11 saw through his charade. THAT is why they were purged/killed/removed from record. They knew Big D was playing everyone false. Humanity is where it was always destined to be - worshiping Big D. He just didn't want to accept it. Imagine how much further Humanity could have gone if he wasn't such a hubris filled megalomaniac in denial. lol For Big D to even call Lorgar his Son only confirms what I believe to be true. He does nothing but speak falsehoods to get what he wants, consequences be damned. And I am no Chaos Lover. I just call em like I see em. ;) Big D knew what he was doing. He knew where all of this would lead them. Why else do it in person? Malcador could have whooped Lorgar's @$$ with a thought. Yet Big D showed up to assert his will upon them. He was complicit from the start. He knew what he would become from the moment he left the portal on, what, Davin? I can't recall the name of that planet ATM. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors.... **Edit** Gods are capricious, at best, and silent at worse. Big D is no exception.

Brother Rho, greetings!! Love your channel!! I look forward every time for your next video. Keep up the good work. Now, I think that The Emperor made a few mistakes here. First, I agree, He should have taken Horus and not Guilliman, due to the fact that Horus was Warmaster. Guilliman for all intents holds the same rank or position if you will as Lorgar. This way The Emperor is showing a united front among the Command structure by having Horus, the Warmaster, at his side, which brings his next mistake. In the military there is a golden rule, you praise in public and reprimand in private. The Emperor should have met with Lorgar alone to address this issue. By doing it in public The Emperor could have ruined Lorgar's authority of command over his legion. If you think about it, it's a trickling effect. This situation and potentially the heresy could have been adverted if The Emperor had share his intentions from the beginning with all his sons, in other words been transparent instead of keeping secrets from them. In my opinion this is proof that for The Emperor, his sons were just tools in his grand plan for the Imperium. Like Guilliman stated, The Emperor let his sons loved him and made them believe that he loved them back. Anyways, can't wait for your next video! Thank you!

When your little brother threw a tantrum broke the flat screen and you hear dad's truck pull up in the driveway.

Because both legions were at their largest. Hence, the example the Emperor gave is my best guess...

I wonder what would happen to the Imperial truth if the Emperor were to ever return? Would the Emperor still maintain his belief that he is not a god and shouldn't be worshipped as such or would he embrace the fact that he is a god knowing how much he has sacrificed so much throughout the millenia after the heresy? There is so much to consider if he ever does. The last thing E-man would want is repeating the same mistakes that caused the Imperium to be in shamples in the first place.

I would have done things differently. If I were Big E I would have joined the World Bearers for a campaign, showing them that while mighty I'm not a god. Granted that could backfire, since Big E is a powerful being and could single handedly force a world into compliance, but I'm sure He can hold back if needed.

Custodes are bigger than astartes.