Workshop Tips #5 - Reverse Engineering

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Workshop Tips #5 - Reverse Engineering

Рет қаралды 4,595

Күн бұрын

In this video, we show a couple of examples of reverse engineering and cover the important thought processes that need to accompany measurement techniques.
Channel artwork: Ryan Toomey

Пікірлер: 90

@daveticehurst4191 2 жыл бұрын

Great Video Jon. THIEF when you have filled in your order form at IKEA, you are SUPPOSED to put the pencil back in the box, NOT bring it home. LOL Regards from Australia.

@howardosborne8647 2 жыл бұрын

It isn't a real IKEA pemcil....he reverse engineered it using bits of a Staedler Norris black lead(a posh term for copied it)

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Ha Haa, thanks Dave, "no officer, not me sir, must have found it behind my ear"! I've spent enough money in that place over the years to buy every pencil they own lol. Cheers, Jon

@Rustinox 2 жыл бұрын

It's always interesting to listen to someone who knows what he's talking about. Thanks for sharing.

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Rusti, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated mate. Cheers, Jon

@dbayboyds409 2 жыл бұрын

Love the way you talk through the process. Thank you!

@user-qg9rr5fe8s 7 ай бұрын

I really enjoyed being taken through the process of measuring the collet for reverse engineering.

@houseofbrokendobbsthings5537 2 жыл бұрын

Excellent. Nice pinching the IKEA pencil. You dodged their crack security. Somehow I think they will manage to struggle on despite the hit to their assets…LOL. Enjoyed the thought process you shared. All the best Dan

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Dan, thanks for the comment. I spent enough money in that place over the years to qualify for a free gift or two lol. I blame my right ear, I guarantee I wouldn't have walked out with it in my hand. Cheers, Jon

@MachiningandMicrowaves 2 жыл бұрын

Very interesting to hear the thought processes behind the measurement steps Jon. I use the precision ball measurement method for the 10 to 15 degree tapers on microwave feedhorns where there's no risk of them jamming in the bore, it's a neat self-calibrating technique, although for short tapers I tend to use a pair of indicators with the part mounted on the lathe or mill plus a bit of trig.

@retromechanicalengineer 2 жыл бұрын

Very good Jon. Absolutely agree with using more than one method to corroborate your results and give confidence. A height gauge is incredibly versatile for that kind of work, I'd have been lost without one when I was running the airframe repair shop. They have a shadowgraph in the machine shop too so that was handy for castings and machined fittings. My brother bought me a height gauge for home also, so I'm lucky in that respect. Best wishes, Dean.

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Dean, thanks for the comment. I have a height gauge but it's too tall lol, hits the ceiling before I can get it on the surface table. Something for a future Christmas idea. Cheers, Jon

@eyuptony 2 жыл бұрын

Enjoyed the video Jon great information. Looking forward to the manufacturing. Tony

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Tony, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated mate. Cheers, Jon

@markrand652 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you Jon for doing this, there's not enough of this on KZfaq for those learning in a home shop. Perhaps in the future you could find a shaft with multiple journals of varying tolerances and how you would go about reverse engineering that, then set up and machine. Keep up the videos, you do very well at it.

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Mark, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Glad you are finding the content useful. Cheers, Jon

@MrFactotum 2 жыл бұрын

Nice one Jon very thorough and detailed👍👍👍👍 cheers Kev

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Kev, thanks for the comment, much appreciated mate. Cheers, Jon

@andrewdolinskiatcarpathian 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for a fascinating video. Reverse engineering appeals to me, because the reason I began to do home machining is to make parts for my equipment for which I can no longer buy new. Indeed, one of my future needs is to make collets for my David Dowling engraver, which are ever so similar to the collet you showed. Looking forward to seeing how you make them. 👏👏👍😀 Andrew

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Andrew, thanks for the comment and feedback. Lol, I am also looking forward to seeing how I make the collets...... That one will get the grey matter working a bit. Cheers, Jon

@TheKnacklersWorkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hello Jon, Very interesting video and great to hear your thought process... thank you. Take care. Paul,,

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Paul, thanks for the comment and stopping by mate, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon

@AaronEngineering 2 жыл бұрын

G’day Jon. Getting all bloody technical now mate. Good job buddy. Cheers 🍻 Aaron .

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Aaron, thanks for the comment. Lol, you bet! I love that sort of stuff. Cheers, Jon

@gregwmanning 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for this interesting and unique video Jon. I learnt heaps about the use of a surface plate.

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Gr eg, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Glad you found it useful. Cheers, Jon

@joell439 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Jon for a very valuable reverse engineering tutorial. It was very helpful. 👍👍😎👍👍

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Joel, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon

@craigtate5930 2 жыл бұрын

Great commentary on the subject...I started fabricating and machining a few missing parts off my shaper and a cover for my hendey lathe...no easy task trying to get dimensions off of pics on the net either

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Craig, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated mate. Cheers, Jon

@dreamsteam8272 2 жыл бұрын

Very interesting Stuff and Knowledge.... a lot to learn for me... as always.... Take care! Chris

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Chris, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Great to see you back on the tube mate. Cheers, Jon

@kentuckytrapper780 2 жыл бұрын

Great info jon, great video, keep'um coming..

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Kentucky Trapper, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon

@bostedtap8399 2 жыл бұрын

Good techniques Jon, very useful. Ref Western to Oriental approach or thinking, Western thinking is to design, once it works, then move on, Oriental, namely Japanese is to work in a circular thought pattern, and continually Improve. Though there was an a US citizen who introduced Statistical Process Control (SPC) to Japanese government, then companies. Japan, in the 1960's and Korea 2 decades later, purchased western machinery, power presses, automotive lines etc, they had for example welding lines along side each other from USA, UK, and Germany producing parts of cars, they didn't purchase any more. In the 70's and 80's I remember it was always the Japanese taking photographs when being shown around the UK company I worked at, in fact it was one of the companies that supplied the first automotive welding lines to Datsun ( now known as Nissan), this was for the Bluebird car, one of my foreman was credited with naming the Bluebird, he cited Donald Campbell, the Japanese presented him with handmade model. Thanks for sharing

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Bosted Tap, thanks for the comment. Yup, aerospace is awash with Japanese methodology we bought back off them once they showed us how to make things well and repeatedly. Lol, my claim to fame is I made the very first development and production die sets for stamping out the Nissan Bluebird seat rails for the newly set up Sunderland facility...... a very long time ago lol. Cheers, Jon

@bostedtap8399 2 жыл бұрын

@@jonsworkshop Hi Jon, China was gifted hundreds of thousands of designs, if not more with manufacturers outsourcing, then they both reverse engineered, plus dilution engineered everything. Reverse engineering has been performed since the invention of the wheel, I was reading about Japanese industry, and since they didn't pursue military technology and aircraft post 1945 ( at their own request I understand), the other industries had the best brains and government backing, plus the "Company Man" approach, ref workers staying in Company owned housing. Quite a bit of work in seat rails (cushions), most of my work upto circa 1997 was in BIW, and automotive suppliers, I worked at a Tier 1 Cushion and Squab manufacturer in Telford, Shropshire (JC), mainly jig and tool maintenance, but spent several months in the press toolroom mainly on grinding and shimming punches, plus a little form work. I've worked at most car manufacturers in England and Wales, not worked at Nissan or Toyota though, but have worked on equipment and/or sub assemblies for them. Best regards John from the Black Country.

@joandar1 2 жыл бұрын

I know you were doing your measuring with gear you have and explained your process well, in particular on measuring the taper on the Collet. For you and others if you did not know the taper could also be measured inside the chuck/spindle of the machine using two ball bearings of appropriate size all be it one lager than the other and a depth Micrometer plus some Trig. It is Machinery's Handbook as well as online I would think. Cheers Mate from John, Australia.

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi John, thanks for the comment. Spot on and thanks for mentioning, I completely forgot about this way, I have a few ball bearings so if I have two roughly right, I will do this to confirm and show it at the start of the manufacturing video (if we ever get there) lol. Cheers, Jon

@stevecallachor 2 жыл бұрын

If you stick a precision ball bearing in a taper sleeve, you run a serious risk of getting it stuck !!!! Stavros

@stephenbrown1143 2 жыл бұрын

I learnt a lot from this Jon, thank you. Best regards.

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Stephen, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon

@swanvalleymachineshop 2 жыл бұрын

Good one Jon . That collet is quite a doable thing to make with some careful turning . Probably i would have measured the taper using the lathe or milling machine to get a taper per mm or foot reading . Cheers 👍

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Max, thanks for the comment. Yep, I am going to go for two ball bearings down the spindle measuring the drop, this will be far more accurate. I may show at the start of the make video as its a good method pointed out by one of my subs. Cheers, Jon

@TrPrecisionMachining 2 жыл бұрын

very good video JON..thanks for your time

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Tr, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon

@ZenMinus 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the interesting review of reverse engineering. Obviously this is very beneficial to me , enabling the creation of one or more colletts. The "rim" just behind the collet groove surprised me. Perhaps that aspect may have influenced the less than useful first attempt of making a collet for my engraver. I do have a tool and cuter grinder, so I will be able to grind the taper to a nice ground finish. 🙂 I'm looking forward to receiving the drawing. Based on your video, I am sure the dimensions will be perfect. 🙂 Thank you for your effort. Kind regards Peter - Western Australia

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Peter, thanks for the comment and sorry it has taken me so long to get this done....... Too many projects on the go lol. Will get it drawn up and over to you soon. Cheers, Jon

@ZenMinus 2 жыл бұрын

@@jonsworkshop 👍

@jimarnott9593 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Jon , all very interesting , hopefully I can improve my reverse engineering of necessity. A thought I have had for a while for the hobbyist would be a run down of the grades of various metals commonly available on Ebay etc and the sort of things they would be useful for . tia Jim

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Jim, thanks for the comment. Great suggestion, I will work this into a future tips video. Cheers, Jon

@ronrogers4523 2 жыл бұрын

Afternoon Jon. As always great job and well presented.👍👍 Jon we do a lot of fab here in the shop, just a following thought. I didn’t catch all your measurements. IE: The overall width and height of the component. For myself if I’m leading up a prospected project and fabrication is required, I will often try to find shorts of mill run extrusions as these can often save substantial time and project cost. Would a short of 10mm A36 structural box tubing ease your fabrication time and overall cost. Again just a thought. Keep up the great work Jon. Cheers and take care. Ron. SSI. Canada.

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Ron, thanks for the comment. Good suggestion, I have also had U channel suggested by another viewer. I have found some steel in my offcuts bin, but I will double check as this may be a better option. Cheers, Jon

@ronrogers4523 2 жыл бұрын

Morning Jon. Thanks for taking the time to reply, out of A no- doubt very busy schedule. I’m glad to hear you possibly have some suitable material on hand. I suggested box section as it tends to have better parallelism and perpendicularly in its cross sections than U members of the same material family. Keep up the great work. Cheers. Ron.

@graedonmunro1793 2 жыл бұрын

thanks jon for the good lesson on the drawing up of the plans ,, i need help like that (lol) cheers

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Graedon, thanks for the comment and feedback, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon

@andrewbaron8713 2 жыл бұрын

I remember well being a factory with you in China, when you saw what you thought was a Hermle. But was an exact Chinese copy.

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Andy, thanks for the comment and great to hear from you, I hope you're well mate. Lol, that was the exact instance I was thinking of when I made the comment in the video. Cheers, Jon

@andrewbaron8713 2 жыл бұрын

@@jonsworkshop yes I am good, been retired for two years. Miss working with you but not your replacements. Been asked to go back 3 times, but just gone beyond working now. Maybe it might worth looking at using an iPhone for scanning and reverse engineering. One of the guys I know used his phone like a GOM 3D scanner with great results.

@watahyahknow 2 жыл бұрын

mightve looked around for a piece of U profile close to the same width (if you have the room around it where its mounted you could go a little wider than original use a longer bolt and fill the gaps with shims) , weld a nut to the material where the raised part is on the original and use that as is should be stronger than cast steel to start with as the U beam material is forced intoo its shape by pressing hot steel through a u shaped die like play doh you might need to machine the back and the walls so there straight but then again most might just need a small pad to hinge on or give it a straight surface , you should do that before cutting the sides intoo shape as the piece can still be clamped in upside down , then get the sides pretty close just cutting the part at the angles needed on a metal bandsaw then finish with a grinder and the mill for the rounded of tips and stuff

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Watahyahknow, thanks for the comment and suggestion. I have found some steel in my offcuts bin but not done much with it yet. I will definitely check U and Box options out before I start, great suggestion. Thanks. Cheers, Jon

@williambramer8217 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Jon Great video as usual. On the collet how are you going to measure the springiness of the piece? You could select your material with a similar elastic limit (yield strength) to avoid heat treatment.

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi William, thanks for the comment. I have no gear to even get close to measuring this, the closest would be a hardness tester to at least understand the condition of the existing. The movement on the collet is absolutely minimal as unlike an ER, it is not designed to take a range, just a dead size. On this basis pre-hardened 4140 (EN19) would suffice I think. Cheers, Jon

@carlwilson1772 2 жыл бұрын

Very interesting. Regarding the weldment, I was wondering if you would intend to machine the back datum face then lightly skim over the two uprights. That way any warpage from welding will be taken out. Ensuring the flat bottom and the upright sides maintain the correct mutually orthogonal relationship.

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Carl, thanks for the comment. Will definitely be re- machining the datum face post weld, but my thinking was to manage squareness of the wings with a big hammer during fabrication. A few dings and marks will make it look a bit more like a rough casting lol. Cheers, Jon

@tonypewton5821 2 жыл бұрын

Ay up Jon, great video I enjoyed it! Another thing to take into consideration when making the collet is material choice! I am guessing you will have to heat treat it? In which case it would need a bit of a clean up after the process! Hopefully without removing any material. Also what program do you use on the computer to draw projects like this up please? Take care, Tony

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Tony, thanks for the comment. Bang on mate, having no grinding capability, hardening and tempering may kill some accuracy. I need to research the best material for the job too. Lol, pencil and paper mate, being a tight wad, I don't have a PC modern enough to take a CAD system (still running XP Pro lol). If I did have the gear, I would use Bobcad or Autosketch (if they still market it). There are loads of cheap ish 2D cad packages, all much of a muchness. Cheers, Jon

@tonypewton5821 2 жыл бұрын

@@jonsworkshop I am wondering if a good stainless steel might possibly be up to the job?? It is naturally harder than some steels, it provides a nice machined finish and would not need further protection from corrosion. Haha same as me with the drawing situation Jon! I am looking for a 2d cad program that you dont need a degree to use. Pencil and paper does the job! 😃 Take care mate

@matthewsmetalworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

How sure are you of the angle of the collet? Two reasons for asking, firstly tapers are more often specified as integer ratios rather than angles (ER collets are an odd exception). And secondly most of the dimensions are very close to an OZ6 collet but the taper would be way off. OZ6 collets are not readily available but they are available.

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Matthew, thanks for the comment and interesting question. I am fairly confident in my measurements, however I will be checking the taper in the bore of the spindle using ball bearings to confirm (will show on camera). Will check the OZ6 out, not familiar with that code. Cheers, Jon

@chrisstephens6673 2 жыл бұрын

@@jonsworkshop if you are going to use balls make sure you can remove them after measurement, 3 degrees is self locking!

@paulrayner4514 2 жыл бұрын

thank you. very informative, Just how did you measure the curve on the collet?

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Paul, thanks for the comment and question. I must be having an off day, sorry, what do you mean by curve please? I would like to try and answer for you if I can. Cheers, Jon

@paulrayner4514 2 жыл бұрын

@@jonsworkshop Behind the recessed ring there seems to be a wider part which curves round and then looks taper down at approx 45 deg before you get the actual taper you were measuring if that makes sense? oops! i've just looked again and seen on your drawing R 0.5 sorry. Still how did you measure that, with a gauge? because it's dam small to measure accurately

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

@@paulrayner4514 Hi Paul, ahh I got you now. I didn't 'measure' it really, I approximated it by using tiny drills, a light, and a white background, a bit like a radius gauge. There is less than 90 degrees of arc so I am only about 50% confident in the 0.5 rad dimension. This is where a shadowgraph would be really useful. Cheers, Jon

@paulrayner4514 2 жыл бұрын

@@jonsworkshop yes i've seen them machines, I believe mr crispin has one, very useful if you have the room!

@wibblywobblyidiotvision 2 жыл бұрын

Interesting video, Jon. I've had a similar job to do on the vertical feed of my mill, reconstructing non-existent parts from the surfaces they mate to and the relationships between them. Not easy at all, especially when we're talking about stuff that weighs upwards of 80 kilos. For basic stuff like bolt hole distances and the like, I've been toying with the idea of using some photogrammetry software, which might be a step up from the greasy finger and a scrap of paper approach I've had to use in a few circumstances :) I still think it would be easier, faster, cheaper and less hassle to get someone to braze that bracket up for you, though. It's literally a ten minute job.

@daveticehurst4191 2 жыл бұрын

You must be joking. 10 Minute job indeed, you would need to preheat it for longer than that. Have YOU ever done hard brazing then ???? I suspect NOT. Regards.

@wibblywobblyidiotvision 2 жыл бұрын

@@daveticehurst4191 That's a very agressive response to a comment not aimed at you. If you have anger management issues, you might want to try talking to somebody about it.

@daveticehurst4191 2 жыл бұрын

@@wibblywobblyidiotvision I am not aggressive, I am just pointing out that it is NOT a 10 minute job as you seem to profess. The whole job would be at least 30 minutes preparation, then pre heat, then the actual brazing part, which could take ages depending on the cast iron make up. Then there will be a slow cooling down period of several hours so it does not crack. You then have the job of cleaning it up, and if some of the braze is a bit suspect, which often happens, you will need to reheat, so NOT a 10 minute job. I know this because I have done it as a job. Regards.

@wibblywobblyidiotvision 2 жыл бұрын

Maybe reread your first reply before telling me you're not agressive. Remember, ALL CAPS is SHOUTING. So shove it up your hole. Yeah, sure, overall it will take longer than 10 minutes. Prep, and above all jigging it to make sure nothing shifts, is gonna take a bit of time. But Jon's got all that to do already, not to mention that brazing doesn't pull stuff out of alignment as badly as welding does. But the heating and brazing is a 10 minute job. Cooldown might take "slightly" longer, of course. Overall, it's a small piece with nothing missing and any competent agricultural repair shop (for example, as Jon is in a rural setting) should be able to do it easily.. Worst case, Jon's already measured the piece up, so there's nothing to lose trying, is there?

@chrisstephens6673 2 жыл бұрын

@@daveticehurst4191 leaving the part to pre heat on an electric hot plate while you do other things hardly counts in the "10" minutes and equally leaving to cool down slowly over night won't eat into your 8 hour day either. Maybe not exactly a 10 minute job but guaranteed to be quicker than making a new one from scratch, IF (capitals used for emphasis not shouting 😉) one has equipment and experience. For Jon's purpose making new is probably best option. We can always think of better ways to do things, usually based on what equipment is available. Had Jon got an induction furnace he could have cast a new one but that is not possible, yet.

@markrainford1219 2 жыл бұрын

If a piece of Russian military hardware were to fall in our laps, I'm sure it would be reverse engineered pretty darn quick.

@dermotkelly2289 2 жыл бұрын

I certainly would not like to attempt to make those collets John. Not from a fitter machinist working for fords LOL.

@jonsworkshop 2 жыл бұрын

Hi Dermot, thanks for the comment. Not too sure I am looking forward to it either lol. Ford's eh, I did quite a bit for them back in the 90's, developed the first Zetec flywheel and made the first few thousand. Also, we used to get Lada valve guides free issue from Ford's and modify them into Ford ones by the thousands lol. Cheers, Jon