For me, the fun of "magic" is in the fluff. I use the basic mechanics, but add lots of color details. One must not only study a spell to prepare it, this must be done having access to heavy spell books, material components and equipment to brew-up the spell and commit it to "memory". Then one goes out adventuring equipped with spells ready to cast. In Vance one doesn't lay down in a dungeon and spend a few hours in the morning rememorizing spells. My magic users return to their laboratory for access to tomes, ingredients and paraphernalia in order to renew their spells. Makes magic feel more powerful, more real and more special doing it this way, I think.

A Low Magic World feels unlikely for 5th Edition to emulate, given that Cantrips are "At Will" casting.

In my setting most kingdoms require a spell caster, except elves, to register with the collage of wizardry within that particular region to be allowed to cast spells while within the area. This, of course, is only possible if those kingdoms are in good standing with each other. Each college controls certain spells and those that learn them must enter the kings service at the end of their schooling (similar to countries that have mandatory military service in our world). Wizards are indoctrinated at a young age so they're normally pretty patriotic. It's considered an act of war for another wizard to share their spells with or have their spells taken from them by another college. It's basically unheard of for wizards to share magic between other colleges, this is mostly due to the conditioning implemented in school but also due to the nature of magic and how it changes how magic users see the world. There are shared spells across the world like fire ball or lightning bolt but several of the more powerful magics are only held by certain kingdoms and their whole society is sometimes built around that knowledge. Vast amounts of spell knowledge has been lost (not yet found) or has been horded by rogue wizards that have been corrupted in their search for more power (at least that's how it's spun in the kingdoms they defected from). Wizards caught casting without papers are often jailed or even burned and in some locations spell casters are seen as ill omens and are driven out or outright killed. Spell books are soul bound to wizards so upon their death the book turns to ash and each wizard has their own language when copying spells into their books so the only way the information can be extracted is through torture or magic if such spells are available to the interrogator. Scrolls found in the world will often be written in ancient languages from a more golden era and must be deciphered before they can be copied into the magic users spell book. Any magics found out in the world must also be turned over to the wizards college or the wizard will face horrific consequences. With all of this set in place it makes it to where magic in my setting feels very strange and esoteric.

I personally try to keep magic-users as somewhat rare and use the magic rules in "Wondrous Weavings Warped & Weird". It goes well in my Dolmenwood campaign with fairies and stuff. The rules are PWYW in Drivethrurpg for anyone that wants check it out. It basically is the same Vancian magic in OSE/BX but it adds the possibility of "breaking the rules" with the caveat of suffering a Magical Mishap if you failed a check. For example, preparing multiple copies of the same spells in your spell slots can result in unintended consequences like trying to cast sleep on the orcs but instead it polymorphs them into a dragon.

Y’know this has me thinking of a system where the amount of spells is based less on level and more on material things; basically a “cheap” spell book can hold up to five spells a wizard takes from their collection of scrolls kept safe in their base. Spell books inscribed this way are stuck with those spells permanently, and more expensive/rare books can hold more spells of greater level. I just like the idea of a wizard digging through their collection of spell books looking for one marked “utility” or “dungeon delve”

In my games (OSR+5E); Elves can enchant items (@ 9th level), and use spells from the Druid spell list. Dwarves can use magic runes carved in stone or metal or etched on paper (one-time-use) in the process of forging a weapon or a piece of armor (@ 9th level), their spells mostly come from the Wizard spell list. Wizards (male only) can craft potions (@ 3rd level), create magic items that use charges (@ 5th level), and use spells from the Wizard/Magic-User spell list. Witches/Sorceresses (female only) can craft potions (@ 3rd level), craft limited use magic items (@ 5th level and are usually single use, and most likely used for the purpose of protection), and use spells from the Cleric spell list. All the lists are slightly modified to my liking and made to make sense for each race/class. I don't use Druids, Warlocks, Sorcerers, or any other spellcaster classes in my games.

When I read the older DnD editions I find a mentor student relationship and not so much ‘schools’. I think it fits nicely with your wizards stuck in towers. They have students/slaves that will travel farther and quest for them. Each PC wizard is given a spell book by their mentor. I think the only proper thing would be to have the wizard PC get new spells at level up from their mentor’s tower. This makes a role play opportunity and places to put plot hooks.

I came to the conclusion that adapting the magic rules to the story is paramount to ensure magic will not break your plot acvidentally. So building the world around magic to tell that particular story is the result. I favor the memorizing spell idea and hunting rare spells by finding scrolls.

I love playing Warlock! which is based on British old school Fighting Fantasy, spells just have one power word with a simple description, like Blast, Feather, Lock, Read, Silence, etc. Super easy to understand and magic is available to everyone, but a few wizards choose to specialise in magic and searching for more spells. No levels, No spell slots, No “memorising”, just wild magic that you can cast and even mix up, like casting Fog to fill an area with heavy fog or cast Fog + Poison to create a poisonous gas cloud.

I always thought that wizards regaining their spells after resting basically just means that they memorize their spells while resting. Keep in mind, the difference between a short and a long rest is that a short rest is basically sitting down for an hour doing something not intensive and a long rest is sleeping. So basically the wizard memorizes the spells and then goes to sleep to regain his energy.

Great movie cover, over there! Loved the intro, with the woman talking.... That was so immersive. Thanks for the video, another interesting one.

Thanks for the food for thought, always appreciate your opinions on D&D topics. Have a great day :)

I’ve always explained that not everyone in my world can manipulate the energies of magic, but the PC’s just so happen to all be able to, if they have the stats. I like the way setting of The Black Company handled who gets magic - keep it ambiguous.

We mostly have stuck to the "standard" of d&d magic use. Though throughout the editions (up until 4th and 5th) there have been some interesting takes on it. Dragonlance was of course the picker of magic systems. Darksun as some will know, casting spells killed the world off bit by bit so that fireball might save you in the moment could end up biting you later. Eberron was basically magic everywhere, taking the place of the industrial age in the real world in favor of magic. But also produced magewrights and artificers, which was cool to a point. More of a mood setting. Personally my first encounter with differing magic rules was Spelljammer. Not that the casting was different just that it was the first magitech type setting we played. Spelljammer's explanation for everything was priceless, "It's magic and it knows that it's magic." That line of text made flying bug ships in space make sense.

This is another terrific video with a great amount of useful information and questions to answer. I like all types of magic systems except for Vancian, but that never prevented me from playing D&D. When I began working on my current world-and probably my last as I’m glad the way it is developing. I essentially wanted a world where everything could be possible but within certain areas, times, and/or situations. I took inspiration from many sources including StarWars d6, Palladium Fantasy, TORG, Buddhism, 1800’s pseudoscience, Heavy Metal & Epic magazines, and YT videos along with yours. I had to develop simple rules that worked for skills, combat, spells, psionics, creature special abilities, contests, and keep it flexible for additions. Since I absolutely love rolling all types of dice on the table, and want to keep it simple, the players only compare dice and count successes. I would like to eventually release this and have a few friends who are helping me with testing and their ideas. It’s a lot more work than I expected.

I don't mess with the Magic Spells themselves in AD&D (Especially anything older than 3.X) but I love creating my own Magic Items and giving them a history and a name that came from my own homebrew world. -- Incorporating the item into the world.

To add a more fifth edition perspective of working the magic. Spell slots I've flavored as the exhaustion of casting a spell. I rarely give a level of exhaustion but its emphasized. I also have list of spells that can't be learned naturally via leveling up due to rarity and power. Then I make getting those spells quests. I've also asked how their wizard researches the new spell they learned at level up, which has created fun roleplay situations that don't escalate into rolls but it's made my casters think about how they come across their spells and tell me so without me asking. Cantrips are indeed just a part of the game, and I agree that you can't call the setting low magic with cantrips. But I couldn't see my self hard limiting my spell casters. I see useless casting as a problem, not to much casting. Pointing out that the situations you show your wizard will also decided portions of their spell list and thats what I try to do. Develop encounters that should be answered with weirder spells. Lastly, I just spend a longer time at lower levels When they only have 3-6 slots total you get much more careful casting. Specifically I slow down right at level 3 because level 5 is huge deal in terms of power.

Really enjoyed this one, especially since I have to keep updating and thinking through the implications for my own TTRPG because of choices I made with the magic system. One thing I'd like to bring up is that I think the "Low vs High Magic" debate is actually flattening the discourse quite a bit, and something that Keith Barker really got me thinking hard on when he writes on/discusses how he approached it for Eberron. Specifically, the addition of the Wide vs Narrow Magic (magic is common vs magic is rare) to the debate, and actually making a it a discussion about where in the quadrants you land, and how that has implications for a setting. This breaks apart the issue where Low Magic is often synonymous for Narrow/Rare Magic, which would conflict with a setting where everyone has access to a cantrip and ritual casting was common, but actual spellcasters were rare yet extraordinarily powerful. As a concrete example, I'd say that OD&D is a Narrow High Magic setting. It is a fundamentally magical world, with VERY power magics and characters who can access them, but those able to reach such heights are rare and generally inaccessible. Compare this to Eberron where Keith takes a Step Pyramid approach, with low level magic being quite common, but each "tier" up you get a large reduction in the amount of entities with access to such magic - Eberron is a Wide Low Magic setting, but on the Low/High scale, its more towards the middle range. And then you've got something like Forgotten Realms which is Moderate High Magic setting, where if you're in a town you probably have access to someone who CAN cast magic, and low level priests who do, but the chance you are on a first name basis with them is rare. The overall amount of people who have access to magic, and how powerful that is, forms more of a classic pyramid with a smooth slope up. There are a lot of mid to high level NPCs out there, a couple explicitly mage ruled societies, so on and so forth. This helpefully allows you to then discuss settings in terms such as a Step-Pyramid or Regular Pyramid, as discussed above, or a Tower (Narrow High), and whatever other shapes make sense to get across the intended presence of magic. This in turn is a really helpful tool for thinking through the effect for your own setting, but also for trying to get across the setting to others. My setting is a Very Wide Step Pyramid - everyone has access to one domain of magic at least on a low level, fewer are actually good at it, and significantly fewer have access to two domains, and exceptionally few have access to all domains. Anyways, food for thought, thanks for the videos!

One of my favorite OSR-style games is Hero's Journey 2nd Edition (the book itself lacks some procedures and tables for emergent play, but of course I use tools from B/X and other games to make it shine). Magic there is more spontaneous, and even more flexible, since each spell has 3 different effect, essentially meaning you have 3 spells possible when you learn a new one. However, magic is really rare because to be a Wizard you have to roll 15 or higher in "Insight" attribute. And attribute rolling is a fundamental part of the game, which is the way the lineages (races) are balanced. Really cool

I'm thinking up some magic where you have to cast a training spell to train their minds to take the magic. Magic spells for a regular person will hopefully only put you in a coma vs blowing your head off. You have to have magic written down. The paper burns away when cast. You can make new spells "in the lore". And if you want a constant magic effect, you have to have an item to do that, you can't just cast a spell that lasts for so and so turns. I'm working on it.

Another absolute banger by Bandit’s Keith

I’ve been tossing around this idea for a game that uses the Mage class (and possibly Acolyte) as shown in the Carcass Crawler zine instead of the typical magic user. This magic system instead of having memorized spells so to speak would be based around scrolls or written spells so that once cast, a spell is used unless the Mage scribes or copies a spell book or scroll to a usable scroll, which is expensive and time consuming. This would also eliminate the idea of what spell levels can be cast but would make spells rare and valuable but a 1st level Mage can cast a high level spell if they find it. Since they have an inherent “read magic” skill, a failure would then roll on a table like in DCC or Low Fantasy Gaming, where strange and terrible things can happen.

Fantastic work Daniel. :) I play 5e, and I replaced spell slots with MtG color mana for all my spellcasting. red spells need red mana to cast, etc. when you run out of that color mana you can't cast those spells anymore. casters pick what spells they know and pick how much of each color they have in their mana pool. they are gambling with their mana what spells they'll need today. They can focus on one color only or diversify with many colors but also divide their mana pool. Mana is also a battery for rituals, magic items, tricks and traps, so casters are living batteries as well as throwing magic around.

Awesome video! In my DCC campaign, magic is rare. But I use your suggestion. Players have to either find new spells or learn them from another wizard. Really set the tone for the role that magic plays in the game.

Magic was the first thing I home brewed. MUs have the lowest hit dice, most limited weapons and armor, and have severely limited magic ability. (Gary did not like MUs). They really end up being a major party liability. I developed a spell point system that allows them to cast the same spell multiple times as long as they have the points. Exhaustion occurs when the points run out and they must rest to regain those points. It has worked well over the years.

The magic system of a setting really does have a massive effect on your game. Each setting can either benefit, or be hindered by how magic is implemented. This is also true regardless of the tech level of your setting. ~ Adam

I'm running a 5th edition group, but that's "5th edition" with about twenty airquotes. One of the many hacks I have made for it is that the Warlock player (who, if you are unfamiliar with 5th edition classes, gains his magic via a pact with a powerful being of some kind, such as a devil, archfey, or eldritch horror) is typically offered, overtly from his patron, quests to retrieve or sacrifice or overcome or learn something, in place that is particularly dangerous. In return, he will be granted an extra spell slot, new spell known, or invocation. This has made the player *very* willing to engage with the world, and risk life & limb to gain an extra bit of magic, which was my game-mechanic solution to encouraging the player to interact with the fictional world, in the way that only the Wizard / Magic User had the built-in reason to interact with the world by collecting scrolls and books.

Always insightful. Thanks

I can only speak to 5e personally. In Vance's universe, the magic informs the worldbuilding which informs the magic. The consequence of quality writing from a singular source. In 5e, the magic is an eclectic design built over decades of iteration, and there is fun gameplay from that, but the connection to the worldbuilding is strained. So now there are wizards that can afford to leave their manse, but few of the consequences of such a change.

Thanks for the video, it gives me things to think about for any of my campaigns.

Another excellent video, Daniel. Thank you! Shared.

Ha! Thanks so much for doing this! I’m just in the beginning of listening to it. In Howard’s Conan, all the magic is bound up in ancient artifacts from who-knows-where (e.g. Set) and the sorcerers are the ones who know how to use them (e.g. Toth-Amon and the ring in Phoenix on the Sword). I always thought that was so cool. I really need to read Vance. I know it’s the basis for D&D magic but I just learned that in the last year or so.

I think Gary’s justification for Vancian magic in the Strategic Review was good enough. The purpose of Vancian magic was to provide limitations on magic-users. It’s an abstract system like early D&D’s 1-minute melee round and Armor Class Matrices. Also for your CHAINMAIL-inspired game, see if you can find a copy of Spellcraft and Swordplay. It was a game that asked “what if CHAINMAIL’s combat systems had remained the default in later editions rather than the alternate combat system taking over?” If I remember correctly it also preserved the magic systems.

The DCC system appeals to me in the form of the unknowable outcome of dealing with extra-human abilities in the form of magic. I like what is done in The Black Sword Hack, wherein the magic is more akin to Conan in being somewhat more indirect and ties more into manipulating reality than hurling energies at one another. I use the descriptions provided in DCC for the spell appearance sometimes in my other games, to have them be more of a warping of reality, or alteration of the immediate area, like for the sleep spell, wherein poppy dust appears and floats down over the target or target area, causing drowsiness that some of them succumb to.

Hi, found your channel recently and it is quite good, congrats! I've been thinking about an adventure or maybe even a campaign around the influence of magic in the society since I read DCC for the first time, it is good to know that there are other people thinking about this stuff as well hahaha

I think using the d8 for magic users HD as well. If HD is more of an abstract resilience of the character, it can work perfectly as combat endurance for the fighter, and it can work as magic points for a caster.... It also represents the magical protection a caster may have despite her low physical propensity

Great Video, going OSR myself its a fresh breath of air to go ahead and make my own magic systems and think about the effects such magic would have on societies and the setting . Really makes for a far more interesting world and setting to run a game in. I find the high fantasy super hero settings of 5ed where magic is so easy and free to use and common really lack any depth and groundedness to campaigns. Cannot run a Sword and Sorcery or any form of low magic setting in 5ed really its quite a limited edition in that regard. Love the over all ideas you put out here, my own system and campaign setting magic is going to be accessible to all however your going to have to search for the more powerful and effective magic . Most magic will relate to two attributes giving varied results. I also agree 100% putting time in rituals of conducting magic really makes players go OSR and have to think ahead and not just rely on their powers to save them when they need them. Using equipment slots is exactly what I plan on doing for most of the magic being tied to items. However their will be a few gods and deals one can make to gain a magical power or ability, these however would be unwise to abuse too much and to openly use them in a settled area is risky depending on the inhabitants and their views. Great stuff man this is a much needed topic magic really has a huge effect on such settings and it needs to be considered far more, Its apart of the goofyness of forgotten realms which for me is silly and I cannot take such settings and campaigns taking place in them too seriously. Which kinda drags down the experience for someone like me and I know i am not alone in this regard.

We've always stuck to, "if there's magic, there's no gunpowder" Lately we've been playing "old school Forgotten Realms, didnt know 5e stole that name", so wild magic is certainly available, albeit very unpredictable haha Casting the proper spell is supposed to be challenging, especially at low levels, thats why I like high dex magic users with darts

Great stuff

One thing Ive thought of is a set of spells that are rituals that can be cast by anyone, but under very specific circumstances. So lets say a Gate spell, but it has to be cast on a certain time and with very specific things that need gathered. I would probably also include a miscast table with it.

> the "rare" magic problem This is great. I have tried (and flubbed) making magic rare before: I like your solution! That said, the second bit - "wanting to learn magic" - that was actually going to be my next attempt - lol - in Weapons, Wits, & Wizardry (my own 0e-compatible clone-esque game), the current beta document has an XP cost to learn it; and specifies you need a mentor - the intent being, *no one* starts as an MU - it's something you earn through adventure. Glad I clicked this one!

Great ideas

In one of my groups we came up with Magic and Gear Mitigation to get through traps. Can also be used if a players fails a save as a last ditch attempt to stave off death. So basicaly the DM has the players make Wis Checks. Those that make it can figure out what combination of spells or gear to get through an area of the dungeon or save a victim from dying. Magic Items and Scrolls can be used but it takes x charges to equal the same as the spell cast. As example Save vs Stone Curses (D8) 1 Holy Water or Mirror 2 Torch, Ration & reroll 3 Holy Water & HERB 4 Any Weapon or Armor 5 Holy Water (D4) & Any Cross 6 Holy Water, Oil (D4) & HERB (D4) 7 Holy Water (D4) & Silver Cross 8 SUNDRY (D4) & reroll ...Note: Typically the gear loss is for the one potentially stricken; however, many spells are area in effect. Fail mitigate or save kills lowest level of party or established volunteer. There is also Dispel Magic for a mage of high enough ability.

Excellent video Daniel. We’d love to have you as a guest on Classless Characters.

I runned a dnd 3.5 with no magic users allowed. Only magic was rare equipment and consumable options. We has a blast campaign was 2 twice a month for 2.5 years. Your right about balance, it usely a all or nothing approach for my games.

Will be keen to see what you think of Lavender Hack. Dangerous Journeys really goes into detail in this Splits full casters and partial casters, based on a Very high Stat requirement AND and roll to then qualify, with full casters being rare and partial casters being common. So the world is magical but true casters are very rare. It has something like 18 types or schools of magic and tables on where those magics are found in the world to even give an idea of the types of magic are expressions of different cultures which again really paints the picture of magic in the world of Ærth

Arcanum was the first game to say - Let's go all in on Magic. Then later we got Ars Magica and Mage. There is nothing wrong with High Magic and Open Spell Crafting as long as the Game Referee remembers to have penalties for breaking reality. Reality has to be able to bite back. Personally I use two systems for D&Dish type games. 1. The Holmes Rule you have to go all he way home to recharge your power. There is no way to bring books with you. A single Cantrip is an Encyclopedia Set. 2. I use a Magic Point System but each point is 1hp of damage.

I'm using the vancian system, but to make it interesting, magic is everywhere, literally. The gods of magic set up rune words, and if you understand what the rune word means, you get understanding of that spell. The rune words are in the clouds, the trees, the path an insect might walk, the information is available everywhere and to everyone. But you need training to even know the rune words are there. Thus the arcane and divine spell users. With spell slots, that's how I track the spell components the magic users have. So without your components, you're out of luck unless you have a spell without a material component. Also, when the players use up their spell slots, they can use spells still, but at the cost of 1D6 damage per level of spell slot. Is that Cloudkill that important to cast right now? When you exhaust your supplies, magic has a cost.

I think the best way to write magic is that its spritual technology, think of the ways technology helps you in life then replace that with technology, things like flashlights, food, sleeping ware, and bug spray could all be replaced with magic.

My world is very magical, it is draped with the stuff that powers magic - actually two, incompatible things. But to cast spells you need to weave them from the invisible magic stuff. This takes time, sometimes days, and carefully choreography as the spellcaster moves through the flows to create an incantation. Powerful spells might need many spellscasters, moving in unison, to create complex weaves. Spell are not useful in combat as a result. I use Fantasy Hero for this and require all spells have the appropriate limitations - with no saving for the extra time.

Speaking of Dwarven magic, I'm having it so Dwarves can forge magic weapons and armor by inscribing them with runes. That's more worldbuilding NPC stuff, I haven't modified the Dwarf class

In my youth we played without magic users in a heavily combat orientated party. As I got older we tried to be a bit more 'inclusive' instead of the mantra of 'magic user, self abuser' but at low levels they were still hard to keep alive. When 2E came along and the new bard class came along it was easier to have them be the party magic user while being more 'useful' in other ways. I guess it depends on how you work things. I should say, I never played basic, I started on what is now 1E AD&D. Of course there was the odd Elf fighter/mage or thief/mage but it didn't really catch on in our group for some reason. As I'm looking to start again with one of the old players and form a world and group I'm curious to see how we go with magic so thanks for giving me a lot to ruminate.

You bringing up the effect that 5e cantrips have on balance is interesting. Almost all magic-users in 5th edition have the ability to use light crossbows, with the exception of druids. Until cantrips increase their damage die at 5th level, most magic users will actually get *more* damage per round by just plinking away at things with a light crossbow(assuming they have a decent dexterity, which most also want because they rarely have access to heavy armor). If you take away cantrips, most spellcasters are relatively unchanged in terms of relative effectiveness until level 5, at which point they all have a decent amount of spell slots, and while spells tend to be a bit less powerful in 5e because of balancing, a fireball can still obliterate an encounter and effects like comprehend languages or invisibility are still able to solve problems that might be impenetrable otherwise.

In my world magic is "easy" to cast but "hard" to learn you need to go to "wizard" school to test you apatude for magic then apprentice under a Wizard takes years so a level 1 wizard is not just some dude that showed up they have had far more traning than any outher level one class I think low magic is cool 13 wizards atop a cliff speding there life force to lunch a fire ball at a castle , or wizard casting a spell and loseing arm as a cost is relly cool to me but i love wizards and i love the idea of spells being thorn about making sparks for you fingers to make a crying girl look in wonder maigc warping the world and make it wired My first time playing D&D was 2e I played a wizard at the time because i thougt it would be cool my uncle said an illusionist would be cool ( his faveroit class) I did not have a huge amont of fun as wizard the game was fun but running out of magic and just being a guy with a sling and a dager was well lacking "magicness" to me i guess it felt like mising the whloe point of the class like if you chose to play a figher and then most encousters where solved with words and talking so you never got to fight anything you'd probley be wishing you'd put something better in your Cha so my world will always have magic

When a wizard cut a guy off of the supply of being charmed there is a good chance that that guy will try to mug and chain that wizard up in their basement. Charm person is a heck of a spell. Best way to play it. Have players play withdraw simptoms from charm person. Make an addiction plot hook. Everyone seems unfriendly. Every immortal lawful evil is jaded by charm person and knows what is going on. They are tempted but are immune. They would feel euphoric for 1 round followed by demonic rage. "My friend, my friend, you betray me... and you condemn yourself. How dare you make me sorry?"

May not be the best video to post this but, could you do a mystery adventure design sometime? Love your channel, find it very inspiring.

I'm currently using Open d6 and modified with my own magic system. Being a caster is tough because they have to pay starting dice to even have the option to be able to cast spells. Each spell is a separate skill. Casting minor spells are pretty safe unless the caster is fatigued. Once fatigued though it can be a lot easier for a spell to fail in which case you end up getting backlash which can be pretty serious especially for those using black magic. Dark magicians end up accumulating corrupting traits, which at a certain point the character probably wouldn't be playable any longer.

Great video. I prefer to keep magic rare, strange, and dangerous! High/common magic settings can be great and a lot of fun, too, but I find they rarely delve into how that magic affects everyday life. It often ends up feeling like a mess of a setting.

Fun conversation. I’ve had the same feelings on the Vancian system. It bothered me not having the freedom to cast spontaneously until I realized Vancian meant casters were slightly new characters with every adventure. I do think the identify or magic missile choice is a problem because I want battles to test characters’ limits. If I were rewriting DnD I think I’d make 1st level spells all non-combat, 2nd tactical, 3rd offensive, something like that. So it’s more like bring a sword or a bow, and bring rope or spikes, not bring a sword or a rope.

The topic of how to edit magic and why magic works in the way it does in D&D has been a huge debate in my old groups. We were constantly blabbering about low magic and how to remove stuff from the game, but at the same time how magic was intrinsicly limited by the forms adopted from the game. We didn't read Vance at the time, but I've being reading the first 4 novellas from The Dying Earth recently and I sure don't understand why it should be considered "low magic" at all. Middle Earth is a waaay more "low magic" world to me, especially if we're speaking about direct spellcasting (only demi-gods and elves can cast spells). Anyway thanks for reminding me of old discussions and I'm 100% endorsing magic-based world building in my new campaign.

I have been toying with a magic system based on Chainmail where counterspells are a thing, and spell complexity and the wizard’s level also factor in. I also like the potential for a spell to go off later than desired. I bought a copy of TSR’s War of Wizards off eBay and it has some interesting ideas too. D&D would have been very different if Vancian magic wasn’t introduced.

Magic in my game is something a scholar may stumble upon figuring out what some old tome in an unknown language means. Or a secret coven or a witch or hermit deep in the woods. It’s not something that governments and society has much access to. That’s just my way of doing it.

Some mage's may have a "Traveling Spell Book". It would be smaller than the mage's main spell book that is left at home and would contain appropriate spells for being out in the field. Of course there would be a cost for this but at least if it gets lost or destroyed the mage would still have their main spell book at home.

The main thing, that makes magic rare in a medieval setting, is the necessity to study to use it. Imaging, that you can cast spells only if you have a degree. Can anyone get a degree? Yes. But you need a lot of money and time (in which you can't work for living). So for most people magic is inaccessible, just because in a medieval setting something like 95% of people have to work constantly only not to starve. You can study to become a magic user, but you need your family to provide for your during this time, or you n need to find a patron, that could sponsor your studies.

Thanks Daniel , and timely. I am wrestling with a simplified TTRPG system ( an early D&D modification of my own) which is very "contained" , in order to combat power creep , both in terms of combat and in terms of magic. I am limiting all Character progression to 6 Levels , and am severely crimping down on Hit Point elevation at each level. In order to mathematically place Dice Roll resolutions on a Bell curve , all combat rolls will be on 3d6. Magic is causing me some conundrums , however. I am seeking a low magic environment , but I want the MU players to feel they have some choice in how to develop their Characters, and to have variety in their casting. I also must consider that options need to be a bit broader than early D&D or OSR D&D , because the ultimate scope of development ( 6 Levels only ) is seriously more restricted than D&D. That being said , the more options a low level MU has , the greater the risk/challenge must be to cast each spell , so they don't become medieval thermonuclear weapons. I also feel that casting magic must have an energy cost somehow. I'd rather not add an additional mechanic , like spell points , but I haven't settled on a satisfactory solution , yet. I am "containing" the power of magic in a similar way to applying the bell curve to combat by having the MU level affect the "power" of the magic. For instance if the spell should affect x number of victims , the number it affects increases as the MU increases by level , OR if the duration of the base spell is Y , then a higher level Mage is able to make it last longer. If it is an offensive spell , a First Level MU can attack with 1 Hit Die , but a Third Level MU would attack with 3 HD , or attack 3 targets with 1 HD , and so on. Any thoughts or ideas based on my ramblings ?

Some OSR games allow ritual magic. A turn lets you toss any spell. I might rule that it's a turn per level. So if you want to Dispel something or Cure Poison you are standing around a dungeon for 2-4 turns. Which has its other problems. Using magic on the surface in Esoteric Enterprises has other risks. The police suppresses magic hard, and you are not equipped to face down the attention of a nation-state.

Intellectual casters, have a book(s) and carry material components, or a spell focus (I use different focii, to represent different things. Personally grouped sets of spells , different schools, energy types etc.) Magic is available, though poorly distributed, barely understood, tightly controlled and prohibitively expensive to teach and learn. To be taught magic; people need to be tied to organisations like governments or bound to (and controlled/handled by) some kind of hierarchical structure. Additional spells can be found, or taught, from creatures, scriptures and scrolls. It gets messy when you get to spontaneous casters. These creatures are feared and distrusted; as using magic commonly is a tool of the monstrous. Sorcerors only know certain spells, wizards can accumulate more, Warlocks are bound to serve their patrons. Uncommon to rare, is the feeling I was going for. Even moderate evocation, turns a man into a wandering howitzer. You want to know where these guys are at least. If not knowing they can be motivated, or controlled to work for you.

I always thought that the truckload of magic options for characters in D&D is somehow inflationary to the concept of magic as a whole. Basically about 90% of the playable archetypes tap into some kind of supernatural force. This abundance of magic users, talismans, and - as you pointed out aptly - effortless cantrips, paints a world of wonders that lost all appreciation for miracles. Mundane tasks may very well be frowned upon, since what's the use of a cobbler, when a mere mending cantrip can repair your shoes much swifter and more efficiently? Maybe with the exception of the Dark Sun setting, all of the high magic worlds in D&D suffer this problem of magic utilitarianism, that renders a lot of historical tropes (such as cavalry warfare) rather obsolete. In addition to the questions of 'how many mages?' and 'what's the cost of magic?' I think it's important to draw a line and ask 'what are the things that magic isn't able to do?' in order to come up with some credible world building. Assigning different fields of expertise to certain ethnic groups and working with an evolution of magic capabilities (like with technology) are good tools for that, as can be seen in the Talislanta game setting. In addition to omnipotent wizards, I do not really like the resource management imposed by many magic systems via spell slots and mana points, since it takes the player further away from the narrative of spellcasting - which IMO is the only thing that can make a thaumaturgic incantation feel really magical at the table.

Just had a TPK in Basic Fantasy from some bombardier beetles, if only the Magic User had their sleep spell ready.

I’ve really been meaning to try running Whitehack, but I’m not a fan of Core Mechanics vs OD&D’s more modular take. Whitehacks magic system is really intriguing though

Excellent stuff. I've always wrestled with the whole "memorized spell vanishes once you cast it" mechanic (I was an actor, and I didn't have to rememorize my lines every day), but then how else to achieve that "you have what you packed" idea? Spell slots come close, but it's like a magical Swiss army knife - all your tools with you all the time. So far I just use the BECMI mechanic and hand wave the logic behind it!

I think Ars Magica is limited by the magic side-effects which make the casters not casting whenever they want. Warhammer does the same, only because you can cast all the time doesn'T mean it is a good idea to do so.

This was super inspiring. From a mechanic perspective, if you wanted to do it how you were talking where magic was rare and still vancian, how would you allow PCs who level up get the new “free” spell for that level?

Something that's been on my mind for a while is clerics memorizing spells. Thematically, they're praying and channeling divine power, so why are they memorizing instead spontaneously?

I don't mind traditional D&D magic as long as you include cantrips like they did in 1st/2nd edition. Low level magic users are really nerfed in those early editions.

DCC spell casters are rare because their magic mutates them into the creatures that PCs slay. Sure you *could* sit in a temple and spam a healing spell, but within a few days you'd be a gibbering, glabrous horror.

Charm person just raises your AC to 20 for the target its casted on

Hey Daniel I sent you an email a few days ago about the magic system and Gary's in put wondering if you got it? Thanks

was the dying earth written by jack vance?

Easier to case? harder to cast?... Stranger to cast?

What does Osr stand for sorry I am a noob

So in your video are you saying it's OK for us to actually talk about our worlds to you? Because I'm totally willing. But that's probably something best done in a private message. It's pretty interesting or at least I think it is. It's a world full of magical commerce. Where in the territories of man there was a rapid magical progression in society. Which led to an event called the wizard wars. This will be viewed in later history through a much fairer perspective but initially it led to incarceration execution and new ways to regulate wizards making them indentured servants to the state or rogue runaways, hedge magicians living in the wild. Eventually some of these wizards would take over the merchant teleport ships. The ships are one of the primary reasons wizards were not just totally eradicated from the territories of man. A wizard without their book is pretty useless. So another way to regulate wizards is to have mass book burnings. This includes rating peoples private estates ransacking houses, hiring rogues to check for secret passages. And although wizards were the ones who allowed there hunger for knowledge to consume them. It was their private backers and the countries that now turned against them that funded such research and created an environment turning Wizard's into celebrities. Bards doing as they do turned these pirate wizards into romantic figures. There's a lot more.