Writing Wargame Psychology Rules

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Rule of Carnage

Rule of Carnage

2 жыл бұрын

In Episode 26 (part 1) Mike and Glenn talk about psychology rules in wargames. The psychology of the minis that is, not the players. They try to set out some categories for psychology rules and a few of its sources and purposes. There is categorization, hooray!
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Пікірлер: 25
@TheBarnBards
@TheBarnBards 2 жыл бұрын
“You see me now a veteran of a thousand psychic wars. My energy's spent at last, and my armor is destroyed. I have used up all my weapons and I'm helpless and bereaved. Wounds are all I'm made of; did I hear you say that this is victory?” (Blue Oyster Cult, 1981) -Interesting discussion, gents…keep up the discourse!
@crikeymiles
@crikeymiles 2 жыл бұрын
We're making a career of evil.
@TheJoyofWargaming
@TheJoyofWargaming 2 жыл бұрын
A lot of games use target priority selection. Both in shooting and charging. Frequently rules will require a model to charge or fire at the nearest visible enemy. With exceptions for prioritizing enemies in the open over enemies that are in cover. Which opens up the possibility of strategies where you screen a powerful foe using smaller, and weaker figures, who have to be picked off before you can target the big bad.
@RuleofCarnage
@RuleofCarnage 2 жыл бұрын
Certainly that's true, of course many of the behaviors forced by psychology effects occur in other places in turns and phases, the question is whether target priority selection conditions are enforced on a unit due to them suffering some sort of psychology check. For example if there were a test war machines had to take where if failed instead of calmly firing over the heads of the fast cav that are about to tear them to shreds they would desperately try to save their own hides by gunning them down.
@steveholmes11
@steveholmes11 Жыл бұрын
Another oddity is "National characteristics". These appear heavily in Napoleonic rules - I believe it's to introduce variety. Otherwise every army would be similar chunks of foot, horse and guns. So we see a lot of: French - bonuses to movement and melee when they attack in column. Russians - very resistant to enemy shooting, unlikely to break until charged (Probably by French columns). British - infantry shoot well in line (Particularly against French in column), the cavalry are hot heads who'll dash after retreating enemy. Prussians - There are 2 sorts of Prussian: Until 1906 they're rubbish, after 1812 they're the original professionally staffed combined arms army. Austrians - The last vestige of a crumbling empire, a practice army for new French commanders, but there are loads of them, so they keep coming back for another battle. Now to be fair, most armies (British excluded) made a massive transition of doctrine during the Napoleonic wars. Historians describe linear tactics changing to shock tactics enabled by new Army Corps organisations. More modern wargames often abandon the "national" and reflect whether the army has a linear or corps based command system.
@TheJoyofWargaming
@TheJoyofWargaming 2 жыл бұрын
A lot of games use target priority selection. Both in shooting and charging. Frequently rules will require a model to charge or fire at the nearest visible enemy. With exceptions for prioritizing enemies in the open over enemies that are in cover. Which opens up the possibility of strategies where you screen a powerful foe using smaller, and weaker figures, who have to be picked off before you can target the big bad. The song of blades and heroes line comes to mind.
@steveholmes11
@steveholmes11 Жыл бұрын
Really good section about 17 minutes where Glenn summarises how miniature wargames have handled (I'll say it) Morale. I don't think Morale has disappeared, but more efficient rules have found ways to roll it into the orders or combat outcome (input and output) stages of the game. Changing the subject toward good game design. Having effects or conditions is an interesting way past the "unbeatable behemoth" syndrome. Units that can't lose because they create so much damage, or have such incredible armour. I find one or two conditions works well, many more and you complicate the rules, and introduce a meta-game akin to rock / paper / scissors. Terror weapons certainly exist in real life. Elephants were popular in ancient times despite huge maintenance cost and being difficult to manage in battle. Elephants big superpower was that they terrified unaccustomed horses. That's really useful where your enemy has superior cavalry which make your troops nervous. Much later, the British fitted a very effective flamethrower to their Churchill tank during the second world war. They could pretty much guarantee the Germans in a bunker would surrender if one of these clattered forward and performed a couple of theatric near misses. (Even death's head fanatics don't relish being burned alive in a little concrete box). Prior to the flame tank, enemy bunkers meant wave after wave of expensive infantry attacks, or rolling up all your heavy artillery and blasting the strongpoint for a week or more. A real game-changer which saved many lives.
@RuleofCarnage
@RuleofCarnage Жыл бұрын
True, you just have to make sure that the terror weapons isn't just your new over powered option.
@steveholmes11
@steveholmes11 Жыл бұрын
@@RuleofCarnage Done properly, the rules reflect the weapon's inherent advantages. For example, flamethrowers are terrifying, but very short ranged, and with limited "squirts". Once used they're very visible, and a priority target for all nearby enemies.
@RuleofCarnage
@RuleofCarnage Жыл бұрын
@@steveholmes11 As is so often the case then its about crunchiness, with ammo tracking and visibility along with terror rules, you need to ask when the payoff and the rules overhead become unequal.
@steveholmes11
@steveholmes11 Жыл бұрын
Another bit of well proven psychology has spring to mind, and it's pretty universal. Trained soldiers who lack ranged weapons are generally able to close with the enemy and engage in a close combat "dance of death". Provide the same men with a shooting ability (even a really ineffective one), and it's very difficult to get them to close with the enemy. There's something in the human psyche that hates close combat (a few confident or well trained elites aside), but is quite happy to stand in a line getting shot to pieces, provided they have a weapon to shoot back with.
@RuleofCarnage
@RuleofCarnage Жыл бұрын
Yeah, I wonder how you'd simulate that on the tabletop.
@steveholmes11
@steveholmes11 Жыл бұрын
@@RuleofCarnage The old WRG ancients wargame rules actually covered it fairly quickly. This will be extremely vague, I don't recall the full details. I think units needed to pass a test to charge into contact, and some of the many factors related to the soldiers' kit. There was a significant penalty for foot soldiers who carried bows. The psychology didn't extend to horsemen, if you can afford a horse and a composite bow, you can afford a pointy stick. It also didn't apply to short range thrown weapons, because chucking spears is seen as part of the build up to the charge. And history shows that the most in your face close fighters have always been partial to chucking something at the enemy just before contact: whether rock, spear or grenade. I'd add that the old WRG rules were very much of their time, with headache causing levels of play complexity.
@TheCrimsonArchivist
@TheCrimsonArchivist 2 жыл бұрын
The closest thing i have seen to the target priority you guys talked about is in Star Wars Legion the CIS Droids have AI where if they dont have an order to do something they will be forced to do an action depending on the unit (B1 Battle Droids have to attack a enemy unit if possible before they can do any other action)
@RuleofCarnage
@RuleofCarnage 2 жыл бұрын
Its been a long time since I actually last played 40k, but I remember Tyranids reverting to instinctual behavior when they lose their connection to the hive mind having a little bit of an AI system. As I say, that sort of target selection does exist in small amounts, such as the Rune of Challenge in Warhammer, but they're rightly rare since they involve entirely removing the choices of one of the players.
@MrZakalwe
@MrZakalwe 10 ай бұрын
Loving this series, btw, not that much has changed in the last year. As an additional thought for 'refusal' systems and morale in general, some games (Bolt Action being the big one that springs to mind) use them as a way to have shooting effect a unit even when it doesn't kill them. Having an easy to track way of non-lethally degrading a unit is a design space I don't see get used that much.
@RuleofCarnage
@RuleofCarnage 10 ай бұрын
Yeah, pinning has the potential to be interesting and doesn't get used enough.
@elfbait3774
@elfbait3774 15 күн бұрын
Seems to me people are backing off the psychology because they feel there is a desire for more predictable, calculable play with fewer madcap shenanigans. I personally love the unpredictability of psychology rules and feel it adds to the realism. As you mentioned, it is entirely possible that a unit may not want to do what you want it to do because in reality that happens.
@RuleofCarnage
@RuleofCarnage 15 күн бұрын
I think psychology rules are in a tricky place in modern game design. For "competitive" players they contain a lot of output randomness, and for "narrative" players they're quite broad strokes. Personally I prefer psychology to be quite emergent, while crazy events do happen, en masse, the psychology of people tends to be largely predictable.
@jonathansmith3674
@jonathansmith3674 2 жыл бұрын
Interesting to listen to as for half of the video I kept thinking "I can't believe they haven't even mentioned X". I think you guys clearly have come up through Warhammer and its shaped a lot of your thinking about things, even down to the choice of the word psychology itself. Interestingly I think you both made it through the video without either of you once uttering the word *morale* which is usually a chapter heading in a lot of rules. I think where psychology or morale rules are most important is in mass battle rules where you have to model the behaviour of a big units and especially the fact that they might all be still alive but also quite frightened. Obviously where this has been done the most is in historicals, and I know Glenn you touched on historicals a lot during the video, and quite rightly said that you really have to have rules for breaking and so on to have any chance of a historicals game feeling historical. To my mind the three categories of psychology that are most important (in a non-fantasy) mass battle context are breaking, pursuit and refusal. Breaking you talked about. I don't think you touched on pursuit at all but its extremely important in historical battles. Waterloo has a famous example of the British cavalry charging, pursuing out of control, and then getting counter attacked and destroyed by the French. In the English Civil War the Royalists won all their cavalry battles but then pursued their defeated enemies and didn't come back. Finally, refusal depends a bit on the type of warfare you're trying to model. Some historical periods really need it and some you can get away with out it (when armies are more professional). Flames of War has a refusal test specifically for infantry to assault tanks in close combat. Sometimes refusal isn't actually the men digging in their heels, but maybe their officers instead deciding that they don't like the order or they'll maybe follow it but only very slowly and cautiously. Despite historicals sometimes being considered a bit old-school, I don't remember the last time I had to keep moving broken units around on the table turn to turn In most rules I can think of you'd remove it a broken unit immediately but probably take some other break tests around it, maybe to everyone a certain distance behind the unit that broke or whatever.
@RuleofCarnage
@RuleofCarnage 2 жыл бұрын
I do prefer the term psychology, just because I think it covers more of a range of behaviors, for example I don't think things like impetuousness would fall under morale as such while I consider morale itself to be a sort of psychology, but that's possibly a bit of semantics. I can't speak for Mike, but I certainly cut my teeth in mass battles on Warhammer, though I've always played other systems at the skirmish scale however, skirmish systems often seem to have much reduced psychology rules. I agree about pursuit certainly, the example I always think of as a single uncontrolled pursuit move that effected the whole of history is the battle of Hastings. Possibly we need to do a video about compulsory movement, but also there is the issue of how much of a given system is abstraction, just as many troops who "die" on the losing side will often be explained as having fled in an abstracted system presumably many of the winning troops who "die" have left the field chasing after some poor lone broken opponent. I think the most interesting question as a game designer is how to let people lay traps based on pursuit pulling people out of position without them being obvious to the opponent or removing their control. Continuing to control a broken unit is one of those things that I think a system has to really lean into to make work, a little of it in a system can just be lots of bookkeeping headache for little reward. I think possibly the fashion at the moment has been to back off from that sort of thing, maybe because the tournament scene is currently more of a driver of some large systems and that attitude is then trickling down to other designers. I think its a pity not to see more of it about really, but it does take commitment from both designer and player.
@jonathansmith3674
@jonathansmith3674 2 жыл бұрын
@@RuleofCarnage Dan Mersey (of Rampant fame) wrote a book called "A Wargamers Guide to 1066 and the Norman Conquest' which sounds like it might be up your street. What happened at Hastings is really interesting because it wasn't even just a pursuit, it was a pursuit of a *feigned* flight by.. I think the Bretons? Anyway, that's not something you see a lot of in games because you sort of have to write a rule to force units to fall into the trap because the all-knowing all-seeing game player will see it coming. Back to psychology though, I think there's maybe a whole discussion to be had about "damage". In a skirmish game you're usually alive or dead, and depending on the game you might have wounds and so be between alive and dead. In mass battle games you generally don't kill a unit in one go, so you invariably have ways of tracking that its damaged. In reality that damage is usually a mix of actual casualties and loss of morale that has made the unit become ineffective. Some games roll all damage into one thing and they don't really care if a failed save represents actual casualties or exhaustion or lack cohesion or whatever. Some games separate them into a more clear split between kills - removing bases or bits of your unit - and then an additional type of morale damage often called "fatigue" or "disorder" or "cohesion" or something like that which acts as a separate set of steps towards being broken. A lot of things can branch out from this into other areas of psychology, like being more likely to refuse to act when damaged than when fresh, or be more affected by fear or seeing other units break etc. Then you can get some gameplay elements where you can maybe rally your morale losses through taking turns to rest and rally and shout at people. This type of rallying functions more like a "heal" than the "stop running away and turn back around" type rally. Anyway, I think damage and ways of modelling it is a really interesting topic and one I'd enjoy hearing you guys talk about if you take requests.
@RuleofCarnage
@RuleofCarnage 2 жыл бұрын
@@jonathansmith3674 We certainly try to take requests and I'll put this one on the stack. I live fairly close to Hastings, so I've been to see the battle re-created a few times, what's interesting is that every few years they tweak slightly what happens to match the most up to date thinking on events, which always seems odd for something that happened almost a thousand years ago. Certainly with perfect information for feigned flight to work it needs to force players to lose control, which is always a pity, increasingly I'm a fan of trying to put in hidden information at points. For example, if you had a system where once a unit starts losing the opponent gets a sort of momentum to be more likely to win the next round and people were allowed to opt to flee but there were hidden units able to make a counter charge then you could actually play out feigned flight in an intelligent way. Of course, that would be quite a complex system, but then I often think its better to do something in a manner that is a bit more complex but offers choices and tactics or not do it at all rather than have a halfway house. One thing that seems to exist quite persistently, and rather oddly, is the idea that units are more likely to suffer from losing their nerve due to wounds than individuals. I mean, upsetting as it would be to be stood in a block of fighters and have half of my allies killed and then be charged, I think I'd be more likely to run away if I had my fighting arm shattered and then some lunatic with an axe charged at me.
@jonathansmith3674
@jonathansmith3674 2 жыл бұрын
@@RuleofCarnage Maybe a hidden currency of resources that you can use to do "stuff". So someone breaks off from combat and you have the option of following up for a free hack - but do they have the secret tokens up their sleeve necessary to go "aha, it was a trap, I've got the tokens I need to get free moves here and here and stuff you". BTW on "momentum" I've been thinking about this a bit too lately and how you can award momentum to one side without causing a snowball effect where you're helping the winner to win even more. I've not watched your videos on catchup mechanics yet but I might watch them next and see what you guys talk about there as its an idea I'd never thought about much. Interested if you think you can reconcile momentum with also having a way to cathc up?
@RuleofCarnage
@RuleofCarnage 2 жыл бұрын
@@jonathansmith3674 One of the main conclusions from the catch-up mechanics video is that transitory resources are a great catch up mechanic since they tend to mean more to the underdog than the leader. In this instance I don't think that momentum would need to be a huge matter, rather just enough to make it a reasonable tactic to want to break from combat and rally to receive a second charge with the momentum received than to fight on so that it wouldn't be the assumption that anyone who breaks is setting a counter charge trap. I think that so long as there is a reasonable option for tactical withdrawal to turn momentum around it could be handled while allowing a control of snowballing. It should be said, tactical withdrawal is something that is seriously missing from most massed battle games of my experience, it tends to be a case of engage then fight to the death or until you flee in disorder. To my mind I'd think that momentum would be more about the differences between unit types than about winning/losing combat, so for example cavalry would gain a lot of momentum on the turn of charge and then find it harder and harder to generate as combats wear one, while infantry would most likely generate momentum at a more regular rate, so cav that fail to break a unit on the charge would soon want to consider breaking from combat, and might want to use momentum to assist them in doing so. I would be inclined to make the ability a bought one, so a player could have a counter charge unit sat off the table, with either a note in which concealing part of the battle field they're sitting in or which unit they're covering with their charge which would be a bought ability, and then set on the table when its time to spring the trap. However, cards that might or might not allow the counter charge, hidden quantity resources or face down tokens on the table with different abilities would all be effective methods.
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