"I've never had a problem with length" - Ian, 2017

"We are thankful for InRange TV’s WWSD project expanding the interest in the GWACS CAV 15 product. With this expanded interest we have virtually sold out of our MK II product line." You guys cleaned out their stock. KE arms were selling these with their triggers.

InRangeTV project 2021: Buy a 51% majority in GWACS so you can make them improve the polymer lower concept.

Yep... just checked my poor man's Iraq Mforgery. I have always kept the buttstock at A1 length, even when wearing bulky interceptor armor.

Really fun foreshadowing video to watch over here in 2022.

I was in the Army during the A1-A2 transition. My training rifle was a FN A2, my first unit had Colt A1's (later converted to A2 overstamps), then I changed units and was back to FN A2's. I am 6'1" with gorilla length arms and A2 stocks are too long. The A1 got it right the first time with length of pull, barrel length, sights, FA, weight.... everything.

You guys create some of the coolest firearm related content on youtube. It's not much, but I'm proud to be a patreon supporter for both InRangeTV, and Forgotten Weapons.

I’m laughing at Ian’s comment about collapsible stocks pulling mustache hairs. I issued an M16A2 while I was in the service, never a collapsible stock. I shoot my father’s AR with a collapsible stock, and lose a mustache or beard hair ever single time. I thought it was just me.

Thanks to this video series, nobody can get these lowers anymore. That is real power!

Regarding the adjustable stock, I deliberately changed mine to a fixed one. I prefer stability and consistency to adjusting (what you are not doing anyway). An M4 being too long for closed quarters is a meme anyway.

It's funny how people have a problem with length adjustability but not when it comes to pistol braces.

Right, you've convinced me, I'll build mine to WWSD spec soon as I'm able to murica.

"won't rip your facial hair out" *SOLD*

Also, if you're going into combat you will pretty much always have body armor on. So IF it was a problem, militaries should just standardize on shorter fixed stock to make up for plate carriers

I just bought my second KP15, both in FDE because it looks so nice. Maybe I’ll get a black one next.

Yay polymers and plastics! Polymer, especially fiberglass-reinforced stuff is exactly what you want for something that needs to be light and strong, but not rigid. Not in the same way as milled aluminum is rigid, anyway. You guys did a great breakdown here of the advantages of a polymer-based lower, and I'm looking forward to putting that GWACS lower into my AR build once I get some more money coming in.

I would say adjusting for armor is a relic of the issued IOTV vest which because they were so bulky around the shoulder they almost required it

Got 2 of those as 'blems' a couple years ago. Sold one and kept one, I've had no issues at all. I like owning something a little different, and showing folks another option in a lower. I put a $1.50 ebay rubber grip sleeve on the grip as I've seen some do.

Great video. The thing I like about this one-piece concept is that, to me, it eliminates potential failure points. You don't have all of these seperate pieces that can come loose, or be out of spec. Fewer parts is fewer points of failure. However, if you have a failure, you can't replace the piece that broke. It's a trade off, but you've proven that this can withstand abuse and keep going in ways better than the traditional set-up.

When I originally watched this, I thought to myself "Well my stock is rather far in. I must be the exception to the rule about A1 length". I rationalized why my stock would be shorter, thinking about how I'm a skinnier guy, and how it's in further because that balances better for me since I'm weaker, it works better with my armor, etc.. I was going to post a comment saying something about how you still need to plan around guys like me, but then I thought "well, what exactly is A1 length?". I measured my stock, saw that is was about 9 inches and thought there was no way the A1 was that short. A quick google searched yield the result that A1 was 9.5 inches. TL;DR: Yup. A1 is the proper length.

I built an m16a1 from a colt Vietnam era parts kit and you are completely right about length of pull and I'm a big 6'4" guy

My AUG in the military was from 1982 and changed every 6 month it's user for 26 years befor I got it. Polymer was just fine, the whole weapon ran flawless. But I have to admit that Austria seems to have quite good chemists and some feeling for polymer in firearms (Steyr SSG69, Steyr AUG, Steyr SSG Carbon, Glock).

To be fair to the lower that broke in the flashback video, it was being held differently to the polymer one, a longer lever arm is going to put more stress on that weak spot.

When people think polymer is weaker than aluminum they can be right, but nylon 6 with 30% glass fiber reinforcement has the same tensile strength as 6061 aluminum.

@9:15 Ian: "No I've never had a problem with length." hahahahaha

Was the owner of Cavarms the driver of that truck?

I literally just bought a blem for a WWSD project build yesterday, what perfect timing on this video.

The Faxon barrel and a light weight handguard made all the difference for my build. A light weight optic and mount are also important.

@9:14 Ian: "I've never had a problem with length." Kudos, sir.

If I were GWACS , I'd do the glock/Magpul thing and have adjustable backstraps/ frontstraps on the grip so that you can keep the monolithic assembly but still have a bit of modularity

Karl, I bought one of these lowers on your guys recommendation, I wish I had the same experience you two have. Mine is horribley out of spec, hammer pin hole is too large and walks out, bolt catch channel is too large and the bolt catch will ride behind the mag so I have to strip the empty and won't hold bolt open, the gap between the stock and the upper is enough to see the bolt carrier touching the buffer which gasses me out, and the rear take down pin is far enough off center that I can't take the pin in and out without a hammer and punch. I really wish this was a better product because I liked the idea of a lighter one piece lower. Really glad didn't submit a form 1 on it before I bought all my other parts.

Maybe you should have mentioned a few quirks like the proprietary takedown pins and the increased wall thickness that require modifications to that PDQ lever and that most anti-walk trigger pins (that use clips) won't work. None of them deal breakers to be sure, but little things I discovered when buying parts that would have been helpful to know ahead of time, and really should be advertised by GWACS, imo.

When I lived in AZ, I had a chance to handle a carbine with a pencil barrelled upper with a GWACS (then Cavalry Arms) lower. The weight difference is almost staggering when you first pick it up. Actually, it is almost comical. Sadly, Cavalry Arms came to their demise before I was able to pick up one of their polymer lowers. Nice to see the lowers are still available. Fun fact: Cavalry Arms also made a run of mil-spec aluminum lowers. I did manage to get one of those and still have it.

Isn't that where 3D printing comes in? So they CAN make those quick design modifications and decide if it's actually a viable option before actually going to mold-making?

If you have big hands I think some heat-shrink tennis racket sleeves could "adjust" that grip well enough.

You forgot the most important thing. You can buy this lower in ZOMBIE GREEN.

That is actually an interesting method of testing the strength of your lower.

I can vouch for the A1 length of pull story at 2gun. I'm also a (very) small framed person using an A2 stock in armor, with a very demanding optic in terms of eye relief, and I find it perfectly usable.

hey Magpul!!! get to work!

JMT - james madison tactical - is the only polymer lower that has held up for me. i've done all the testing that I care to on a few of my lowers and all of them held up. my one lower has over 7000rds through it, to include 458 socom & grendel through it. also, THANK YOU for pointing out the A1 thing! I've been running fixed A1's and Fixed magpul carbine length stocks for AGES. eff that adjustable crap. the only exception to that for me is my Dolos pistol AR with Lawman Folder + SB15.

I have a lower with an A1 reproduction stock on it, and it weighs 2lb 8 and 5/8 oz. On the GWACS site they say their lower weighs 1lb 5oz, so compared to the exact thing with aluminum it's nearly 1 and a quarter pounds less. I sort of learned what Ian learned with his first rifle being that 308 vepr. First firearm I ever owned was an 80% lower I made, and because I looked at too much stuff online, a Daniel defense 18 inch heavy barrel upper that the barrel weighs about 3.5 pounds. So love where you're going with all this. Only thing I would change is just go with the 20 in gunner profile on Ian's rifle.

This is why I like you guys. You're willing to do a cons list on your pros and cons, you make a lot of sense when you do, and you put this shit through its paces before you opine. I've actually been debating the merits of the GWACS lower with a few buddies of mine for some time now and this video is an excellent argument for _both_ sides of that debate. Of course, the fact that the GWACS part covers buffer, grip, and all the like in a single unit, saves a bunch of weight, _doesn't eat your fisking beard_ , and comes in ZOMBIE GREEN are all selling points to me, but the fixed grip, fixed stock, and the nonstandard component issues discussed below are dealbreaker points for the guys that you ALSO talk about. Thanks again for this project, it's been extremely interesting to track.

At the end of the wwsd project, I want to see a break down of cost, weight, and availability of these parts.

Great video guys, helping to break the stigma of those 'crap' polymer lowers. I never quite understood the unwanted hate, aside from that weak point near the buffer. While I sell a lot of E3 Arms poly lowers, you guys are definitely peaking my interest in the GWACS/Cav Arms lower; also the A1 stock is perfect, and it doesn't pull your facial hair out.

I still have my Cav Arms lower from when Eagle Arms was blowing them out. I’ll buy one in every color when Brownells has the new ones in stock.

Its like with bicyles. If you pay attention to even small parts you end up with a full-suspension cross bike without carbon fibre parts that weights unter 9kg with a large frame.

thanks for the work and your open minds, taking the AR back to the rifle that was always the best of breed to me.

Really wish this lower was still available. :(

Whiles my WWSD inspired build is lacking a poly lower (something inspiring and really satisfying about holding an 80% lower youve milled witj your own hands) i am hopeful that as the 3d printing tech continues to mature and as new fillaments are developed we may see a rise of practical polymer lowers in the near future as more people can effectively and economicaly experiment with their development

My bushmaster ACR actually has a polymer lower on it. Not comparing the two different rifles, but if they could somehow merge the two, but the bolt lock / release inside the lower the way the ACR is and still use other standard AR15 parts, I would be very excited.

I always look forward to new wwsd videos and the other stuff too! My go to when I'm tubin

I didnt know these things existed until i saw your videos. I am also excited for further development of polymer designed lower and I am going to buy one of these. Thank you guys and keep up the awesome videos.

Karl, I was at the same Tiger Valley team match back in June of 2009 in the 120+ degree heat, the same weekend that Michael Jackson past away. I was the only Canadian at the event and witnessed the F250 drive over all the rifle bags. The group of people I was with included the owner of Cavalry Arms and their employees. Their rifles got run over and were completely fine. It was the first and only time I used a CAV-15 (back before GWACS bought the tooling) carbine which they had provided me and the weight savings is astronomical. The only good and strong polymer AR-15 lower receiver in existence, if you ask me.

A solution for the grip would be an inter changeable back strap like how a Sig grip is made.

7:01 I thought Karl was just being a jive turkey when he made this statement, but measured my length of pull on my adjustable stock & sure enough it was within a 1/4" of A1 length of pull.

I've been anticipating this particular video because I wanted you guys to sell me on the GWACS CAV-15 and you have done just that. Thank you for doing this series, very informative. I think Eugene Stoner would be very pleased!

It seems that AR builds boil down to one concept, and that's personal preference. Especially when you build a gun from the ground up, you are choosing individual components that serve functions that are important to you, and add to the function of the entirety of the rifle. This, of course, is all tailored to what you are using the rifle for. Finally, because this is the commercial market and not the military, you are given options to choose from, and are free to select the components that best serve your function. Ian, Karl- I applaud you for thinking outside the box and providing some very important conversation and thought-provoking content. I do believe your ideas are innovative and are moving the industry forward. While I don't always agree with everything you say, I'm glad you guys say it. After all, it wouldn't be a conversation if everyone just simply agreed, or had nothing constructive to add. I'm looking very forward to seeing the WWSD concept in its full, finalized form and thoroughly enjoy the content you put out. Keep it up!

Agreed, the only adjustable stocks Ive used are the LMT sharpshooters in the UK and pretty much everyone used by somebody (who can actually shoot it well) I've ever picked up had the length of pull set pretty much the same

Also, somebody should force the GWACS attorneys to watch the part at 7:00. Seriously, it's painfully obvious that they put zero effort into research before deposition.

I have an adjustable stock lower and really I keep it at the same length all the time EXCEPT for when my grandkids come to shoot. Then the adjustable length does come in handy for the younger ones as they need a much shorter stock than me.

You guys should really check out the V7 weapon systems Lithium Alloy lowers. Straight out of areospace just like the original AR receiver 60 years ago.

Biggest issue for when I was in Marines (note I was a POG) on the line was with older gear it was way to long for most of our shooters using a a2/a4. Never measured to see if it was an length. The other major issue is with anything mounted and getting in and out of vehicles had almost all fully collapsed stocks.

I am finding this series incredibly interesting, informative and well done. Not unusual from you guys, but I like to give positive reinforcement when deserved, as I certainly do the opposite, and it seems only fair to acknowledge good work.

I never thought I'd say this about Carl, but that little "hmmm" he made at 4:50 was adorable.

CAV-15 History and mods of the CAV-15 MKII at the bottom. Modifying the grip and stock length is possible if one is mechanically inclined. Also usually the people who do glock frame mods are capable of doing this stuff. sinistralrifleman.com/2013/01/27/history-of-the-cav-15-polymer-receiver/

I may be several months too late on this, but an adjustable stock is absolutely necessary for smaller people wearing armour. I can't even comfortably hold a regular-stocked G36 while wearing a plate carrier. Having a adjustable stock turns "I can barely hold that thing up" into "I can comfortably ready, aim and shoot" for me. Now, I don't have the numbers here, but I'd wager the old G36 stocks aren't any longer than your A1-lenght one. And yes, you may be right, that lenght is absolutely fine from anyone between 173 - 193 cm but once you leave the statistic average and have to put on a plate carrier, adjustable stocks are no longer a "nice to have".

I will be buying one when they are back in stock. I was never interested in a polymer lower until now.

I will probably never use a polymer lower ever, but if I do this would be the one. Great video.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who loses moustache hairs to my ARs

That was a great video and really makes great case for the fixed stock. And i think the only problem i still have with it is it's aesthetics. Never liked the fixed stock look but that is utterly irrelevant to this discussion. Wonderful vid and series guys :D

two paths but similar results in teh Steyr AUG. i like new tech. i am ordering a lower next week hopefully and get in line at Brownells

I totally agree. I've set my stock to the perfect length, and never ever moved it.

I have used the GWACS Armory polymer lower since 2015 to teach classes. The length of pull works for must people that I've trained. I live in NJ and stocks that are adjustable are illegal. It is a lightweight part that you have to handle to believe the weight. I want another one just to build a lightweight rifle , sub 6 pounds, should be easy.

I completely agree about the hair pulling. The fixed length Magpul stock on my wife's AR is a little short for me as she's 5'8" and I'm 6'4" but man it's so smooth on the face.

Back before we knew gwacs true colors.

Had other things to do but this was the video I've been waiting to see the most.

This is the future with 3d printing

I thought CavArms went out of business years ago. I'm happy to find that to not be the case, they're simply now called GWACS! Now if only they still made the gigantic range of colors... still, good news all around. I'll have to finally get another one.

The Cav Arms owner actually posted a really good explanation why the cav arms lower was better than other polymer lowers on Getoffthex. Think it was after he sold it from the fall out on his debacle with the ATF.

I think magpul could and should get into the lower receiver game, their polymer blends are very sturdy and they have lots of experience with ergonomics. Something like this but with a monolithic UBR stock (where the top portion of the stock is built into the receiver) and an MOE profile grip (posibly it he interchangeable back straps and finger grooves) would be fantastic.

Cut to 2019 and GWACS is nowhere to be found, claiming their new lower would be out around a year ago. Doesn't seem to be any other polymer lower on the market with an integrated stock like this. Damn shame.

Wow this video has aged like milk Edit, not because of any points made in this video.

Reeeeee. Please GWACS. Get the MkIII in stock :(

Yup, one of those guns were mine. With it adjusted as I normally keep it, it was exactly the same length.

....For some reason I have a sudden desire to see an AR10 or HK417 with an enlarged GWACS lower

Has anyone done cold weather testing on these I like the idea of using one for a hunting rifle build

I have to agree almost completely with you about this lower. My only point of disagreement is that I don't really have any issues with the A2 length stock. I don't prefer it, but I don't have any issues with it either. I do however agree that A1 length is probably the single best 'one size fits all' option there is on an AR. Probably the best handling AR that I've ever shot is a 16.5" mid-length 6.8 SPC II carbine that I built with my dad. We took the barrel off the flat top upper it came on and stuck it on a 'C7' upper (A1 upper with an A2 brass deflector, as used on the Canadian C7 rifle) and put one of the older, non-trapdoor A1 stocks on it. It is not only the best handling of any AR we've built/handled, it also is the current 100 yard group record holder of our collection. If only we could sort out it's magazine issues, it would be about perfect. As a funny side note, we took a cue from the M1917 30-06 rifles issued to the British Home Guard during WWII and used red reflector tape to create a stripe or two to indicate it is a different caliber than our standard ARs.

I use to like my stock one click in. Now I like it all the way out. I'll have to look into getting one of these.

Great vid guys. Been waiting for this one for awhile!

Good to hear it's A1 length. Is the buttplate removable? I like the curve of the old VIetnam buttpad, vs. the A1 with the trapdoor.

That beard pull is why i got a B5Sopmod stock.

I️ totally agree on the gwacs lower.. I️ have one myself I️ like the only small issues I️ have with mine is the trigger guard is a little small if u would need heavy gloves or something, and the butt plate is a cheese grater... other than that it’s the way to go...

I enjoyed this video thank you Ian and karl

Other nice thing about a plastic lower is that you can spin weld bits to it. Just have to match materials.

You guys are going to be the death of my bank account. Proud patreon supporter.

The grip issue is something that's already been solved by a bazillion polymer-framed pistol designs: swap-able back-straps (and front, preferably). Combine that with your ideas such as butt-plate extensions to change length of pull, maybe a cheek-stock riser, and when you make your new moulds you've already got a much-improved design that wouldn't cost too much more as plastic is cheap once the initial mould investment has been paid off. (Although it is _not_ lightweight, the M1A Archangel stock does all of this and comes in at under $300.)

I like my CAV-15 lower for many of the same reasons, and also because it works very well with a rear squeeze bag while shooting prone or off of a bench. I don't think it offers a lot of weight savings though; a standard forged lower with a few lightweight components such as a MFT stock, as well as V7 aluminum take down pins, end plate, and castle nut should be able to match the weight of the CAV-15.

"if you were to only do 2 components, this and the barrel" Dammit. Those are the 2 components I was looking to change. I was going to ask for an opinion on a different more traditional lower, but I see I'd just be asking for a different build at this point.

I'm glad that Karl and Ian only argued in a "nice way" as Karl put it. Otherwise it would be as upsetting as mum and dad fighting.

That's great and all, and I'm glad you like them, but I'm not trusting an all polymer lower. I prefer adjustable length of pull, because I'm not very tall and have a harder time getting on target with a full length stock.