Did dragons kill Zee's parents or something?

The irony of three grown adults who make a living discussing games about wizards, robots, aliens and the like, sitting down to discuss the finer points of a boardgame about dragons and coming to the conclusion that said game is too nerdy because it takes its subject matter too seriously is just too rich. Sorry guys.... I love you, love your show, been a fan since the early days, but.... I mean, are you listening to what you're saying?? Lol😂

Camilla didn't get the memo about the beige hat

The dragon lore book, as a life long nerd, is genuinely one of my favorite additions to this game. It’s something they absolutely didn’t need to do; but speaks volumes that they put in that extra bit of effort to make the dragons feel real and fleshed out, like they’re a part of a living world and not just some fantastical beast from a fairy tale.

I’m in my 40’s and I am 100% in support of embracing more dorkish, childish and nerdy stuff in the world. I do not take offence to being called a dorky nerd or childish.

Does Zee wear a cultist robe when playing Death May Die? Im still baffled at the nerd bashing.

Can't believe they spent the first 7 minutes just bashing the art and the extra lorebook 😂The art in this game is GORGEOUS! Rambling on and on about how the art doesn't work for you and you can't quite figure out why... just say you don't like the style and move on lol. I knew the review was going to be good when the first complaint was about having cardboard resources... like every other game in existence

Considering how much of a sourpuss Zee was on the theme of the game and still giving it an 8 speaks volumes for me how good this game seems to be mechanically. I love dragons, I loved Wingspan. Instant buy for me.

The aesthetic and the short descriptions have the vibe of the sort of dragon figurines and sculptures that you'll find in collectable shops.

Very strange to me bashing people who like dragons at the end. Very unwelcoming statement. My wife and I love dragons, but we dont have to dress up to play the game. And whats wrong with being nerdy about dragons, anyway?

I enjoyed this review - it was honest and everybody let each other have their opinions on theme and marketing strategy, while objectively reviewing the game mechanics. Kudos to Tom for taking it in stride when he clearly disagreed, as well to Camilla and Zee for not holding back at all

Zee's "aaah" of perfectly pulled off straight-faced sarcastic pretend realisation at the beginning (x2) just fully made my day 😂 Thank you sir 👏👏👏

Jamey mentioned that dinospan was almost what they picked. Maybe you guys would of liked that theme better, lol I know I would have. However, I love dragons as well and am super stoked for this! I do believe dinosaurs would have gone over better. They are real so you can still give facts about them, and it would not feel weird. Also, wingspan did so well because so many non-gamers bought it because of the theme. You don't have to be a "nerd" to like birds. That would be the same with dinosaurs, everyone likes dinosaurs not just nerds.

21:02 - Tom: "I'll play with you.." That was a really cute comment 🥰

Hey, Zee….we are nerdy and dorky. You too buddy. One of us. One of us.

Are u guys jetlagged? Or did you record this a 4am? The vibe is really unusual in this review.

Maybe if I actually got to play this I'd have a different opinion, but personally I prefer having the food and the dice system in Wingspan. As a solo game I would understand why it's inferior, but when playing with other people I feel like the dice generates some of the most interaction and strategy regarding resources. The luck of the birdfeeder can influence what cards you play or what actions you play and when, and even adds a little bit of a push your luck element at times. This adds more variety between games and makes you have to be more adaptive to different situations, which I find very appealing. I played a game with some friends where everyone needed fish and we were not getting any from the dice, which added a lot of humor and frustration (in a good way) to the game. This made me steer course while others kept trying to get said fish, which ended up helping me since they were stuck fighting for fish.

Huh. I still haven't played it but I think this might be the prettiest game I have ever seen.

I don't really think anyone would have dressed up to play this, but now that Zee has said it, I very much hope people do at the next Dice Tower retreat and get him to teach the game! (plus get him to explain the background on what each dragon type eats) 😂

Don't own Wingspan, so getting Wyrmspan. Like they took out the dice and added a bit more crunch.

Maybe Zee would dress up and give it a 10 if it was Marvelspan 😂 complete with a book of lore about made up facts and events. One nerd's dragon is another nerd's Spiderman.

Bought a copy after watching this review can’t wait!!!!

Zee, do you dress as a doctor when you play Pandemic? 😊

So, I shold return the costume? I looooove dragons.

To sum it up for me, if it was the other way around and Wyrmspan came out first, I wouldn't feel the need to check out Wingspan. "Fantasy" is infinitely more interesting to me than factual birds. Eliminating the bird feeder randomness and actually getting the opportunity to gain MORE actions instead of losing them as the game goes on seals the deal for me. Many more interesting abilities also than simply tuck, lay an egg, cache a food, and those tedious in between player actions. Wyrmspan wins hands down.

Sjoe guys, this review has a Statler and Waldorf-like quality to it.

Appreciate the Video, will give this one a try.

I agree that the birds and the interesting bird facts was a big selling point for me to live wingspan. I do not care for the fantasy theme I wish it was sea creatures or woodland animals or insects or something. That would have been super cool. The game is missing that accidental Learning

I like both themes a lot. Admittedly I thought the bird theme was refreshing (before the explosion of more nature themed games). If they came out at the same time I'm not sure which I'd get. I do like the relevance of the bird facts on the cards. Although I do like and appreciate the work that was done to add some silly background to the dragons. Wingspan came out first and I have several expansions. So I really can't justify getting this one as well. Thanks for the review.

I love that they added details about the dragons... I'd rather play this over anything Marvel any day.

I think the dragon art looks awesome, and I’m very excited to read the lore book!

I do own a dragon kigurumi that hadn't tought of playing with! Thank you Zee!😂

Counterpoint to the dragon book: my family’s first modern board game was wingspan, and it was wonderful experience to have my children show interest and grow to love the hobby. Since then, when a board game really sticks, I see them wanting to know more about a concept’s creation, and as well, at times, imagine about characters and adventures outside the constraints of win conditions (e.g. root n subterra). I for one, would be excited to be able to show my kids some supplementary info on the dragons they adore. And what’s more, it sounds to be a free insert! Woot! I wonder if those who are uninterested in the book could pass them off to a young person they know, maybe that’d be enough to get them interested in the hobby.

Dragons are still not as dorky and nerdy as all the Marvel super hero BS

I have played Wingspan a few times (I don't own it) and when I saw a dragon themed version coming, I had to order it. My copy of Wyrmspan arrived this week and I got it to the table yesterday on a 2 player game. I really like the theme and how it treats dragons like and draconologist would in regards to research, etc. The bird theme of Wingspan is neat, it just doesn't really do it for me. I much prefer the gameplay and mechanics of Wyrmspan over Wingspan and I'm glad I waited to pick this one up instead of Wingspan. I can't wait to get this to a group game night. I give Wyrmspan a 9.0 grade.

Your loveliest pun yet!

Lol @ how much Zee hates the dragons haha

So there are a lot of interesting comments, let’s all give everyone a break. Maybe folks weren’t the best version of themselves for review, but it is still a lot of work to put these videos out there - and I appreciated that the crew played it live. They all also gave it top marks for gameplay. The autopilot comment I don’t quite get, but maybe I am not as smart as Camilla and therefore this is a more thinky game for me than for her. And that is ok. I appreciate the review, and really appreciate Tom clarifying why he gave seal of excellence. Be Well

I'm a little surprised how high Camilla scored it based on her comments. I was expecting a 6.5 or 7 from her, but she explained herself well. Good review, nice to hear the pros and cons from everyone.

I agree with Zee that I think this game is mechanically better than Wingspan but thematically lacking for me personally. I would have loved fish or something, though.

Usually love these reviews. This one was awkward and off putting. Weird shade being thrown. One guy basically saying “people who like dragons suck and I don’t want to play with them”. Nerds are your audience!

looking forward to this one!

Wow I really didn’t see that seal of excellence coming. The excitement level in the video was a solid 6.5 at best.

stretch goal for the next dice tower crowdfunding: Have Zee’s avatar be a dragon

I'm not a Wingspan fan, but I imagine for those that are that this is only a positive. More cards, more variety, more ways of playing a game you already like. Like having another version of GWT, I will buy every single one of those no matter how many they make. Thanks for the review.

I really wanted a reptiles and amphibians version. Would have been a great chance with this game.

Great review! Pretty sure I’ll enjoy this one as much or even more than Wingspan 😀 Can’t imagine this one replacing Wingspan, I’m pretty confident I’ll want to play both. 😎 Love the look of it, by the way.

I love birds and thought Wingspan sounded great, but was never in a group that was excited about a game with birds, so I never played it more than once or twice. But with Dragons, I think it will go over much better for people in my group who aren't excited by birds but love dragons.

This review feels to me similarly to how I feel as a Wingspan owner seeing Wyrmspan on a shelf at my FLGS. Weirdly uncomfortable by this strangely similar and strangely different game that I already enjoy. I think the underlying question for me is the same as it was for Everdell: Farshore: What was the intent for creating this game? Was this supposed to be Wingspan with patches? Was it Wingspan, except for dragon nerds instead of bird nerds? (I'm a bird nerd, BTW) I'm sure, like, Everdell: Farshore, it's a great game. Heck, I'm sure it improves on some ideas. The underpinnings for Wingspan and Everdell are rock solid. But at the end of the day, as a consumer it feels like a tweaked product that was designed to make money. Marketing the same game with just enough differences and to an ever-so-slightly different market. Like Everdell: Farshore, it's not a great feeling as a consumer. And I think intent is a difficult topic for reviewers to broach.

Guys bored games are inherently nerdy…no matter the theme 😂

Camilla was critical of some of the graphics design issues, like putting eggs on cards and covering up a bunch of the card. Isn't that the same issue in Wingspan?

Now I hope there's a Wingspan 2.0 with the best mechanics of this game. I don't own any of these yet; so, I'll wait for that one, if it ever happens.

Much respect for this review. Especially the brutal honesty from Milla and Zee.

Birbs are better but gameplay sounds better here. So I will play both! Excited to play this.

I would dress up as a dragon to play it

I'm happy this game exists. I'm probably going to stick to Wingspan though. Never say never, maybe I will play it and be blown away, but I LOVE the bird theme of the wingspan. It gives the game a pleasant and cozy feel that I don't get from other games. Sure there are some things that I wish were tweaked on the edges here and there, but overall wingspan is solidly in my top 10. For those who were put off by the bird theme and wanted more from wingspan this will hopefully be a great option for them to enjoy the spirit of wingspan the game.

Im excited for my copy to show up tomorrow!!

the dice pool is basically the only player interaction Wingspan has, if you don't consider hate drafting. The shrinking actions over turns perfectly balance the increasingly powerful engines you can build, forcing you to not just buy birds for points, but also engine-build to have explosive late turns. In a few months people will realize Wingspan is a superior design

The description should have been tongue in cheek, like Unsettled or something. Or be like How to Train Your Dragon and end each one with "Extremely Dangerous. Kill On Sight."

100% in line with Zee here.

Could you see any mechanisms from this being incorporated in future Wingspan expansions?

When I first introduced Wingspan to my friends last year, I had one who was vehemently opposed to the bird theme, while everyone else loved the game. We then joked if they changed the theme to dragons, he’d love it. So when this was announced, we couldn’t believe it. Really looking forward to playing it and seeing how we all feel about it in comparison to “Birdspan.”

So...the comment about the book at around 12 mins in is when I stopped watching. The point of the book is to provide theme and immersion for people who want that. In wignspan there were facts about birds on the cards. Some people complained about it and it was decided for this game to have a book with that info. This meant that more info can be put on the cards, and more info can be done about the dragons in the book. Like...Zees comments about being "nerdy" and being in a basement was super off putting...i was not expecting it and to be honest it kind of hurt...I am a nerd and I am damn proud of it. Zee sounds like the jocks at my highscool who made fun of me playing DnD or MTG. Which really sucks...like...really sucks. I will continue to be "lame" and "dorky" and be proud of it.

Can't find the article about the art that Zee mentioned. Can someone share the link?

Well, considering the high scores The Dice Tower felt very negative towards this game, almost like they begrudgingly enjoyed it? Lots of negativity towards this game across all social media platforms, not sure why. Also there is a lot of hype, I for one have ordered it on day 1 as Stonemaier games have a decent hit rate with me so looking forward to it..

Bought! Waiting on it to be delivered!

I'm all for you guys giving honest opinions, but jeez, this just felt rude. I love dragons, proud big old dork over here but I'm not playing dress up living in a basement. Don't need Zee at my table with this negative energy! Did someone cut him off in traffic this morning or something?? Gosh!

Declare me a dork! I love dragon facts.

I think there was too much emphasis in the theme of the game and way less in the game as a whole. Also starting a review with "I dont like the dragons..." kind of set up the entire review to try to justify why it is not a good theme. And then justify why a good score....one of the few reviews where it felt the chemistry of the reviewers whas not there. In other words, i didn't see a theme in the review, jk.

The graphic design on the boards 100% looks like a prototype and not the final version.

This remake does bother me in a certain way and its hard to figure out why. Even comparing to Dune Uprising or Everdell Farshore, this felt a bit cheesy. The original theme of birds and bird facts is imo why it was a smashing success. Even if wyrmspan fixes some mechanism, couldn't winspan have done that with any of its 4 expansions by now?

I feel similarly to Camilla with Wingspan. It's a fine game. I have it super deluxified but I haven't tabled it since 2022. The mechanics are okay and the theme doesn't do it for me. Wyrmspan has a more interesting theme (not by much granted) and shores up the mechanics to the point where I think I'll enjoy this one a lot!

Finally a review I agree with! I agree 💯 about the components. Something is so off for me too and everything else that was mentioned here. For me there really isn't any player interaction aside from a rare few effects from dragon cards when a player activates it to get an extra resource. It's also crazy long with multiple players and there is so much down time with times where you even miss a turn. Not for us but if someone owns it and offers to play it I won't refuse.

You can fill your tableau in Wingspan

Next will be C-span. Of the span of one’s promises exceeding their reach?

Zee walks out back and puts on a Pony costume..... ha....stupid dragons!

Jamey Stonemaier likes to make world building part of his games. I understand it's an important part for him. I'm guessing that book of information is to give more of the feels of the world of the game. But it doesn't look like it worked this time.

Keep watching reviews of this and have to say I just really like wingspan a lot more for the base rules.

Glad I passed on this one. Thank you for all ya'll do!!!

Agree whole heartedly with Zee about the dragon theme as it pertains to this particular game. Agree with Milla's overall review here.

Love Wingspan. My most played and favorite game. Just ordered Wyrmspan and looking forward to testing it out.

Can't wait to see if Zee likes the sequel... Fish Span.

I haven't played the game, but I wonder if the dragon booklet is meant to be a bit like the guide book 'Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them' that J.K. Rowling wrote to expand on what is in Harry Potter. So I wonder if what Zee is thinking that it seems a bit hollow as it doesn't have enough substance to stand on its own/draw people into that world.

It sounds like there is an opportunity for a Wingspan expansion that changes the mechanics to be similar to Wyrmspan. Maybe we'll see some changes with a South America or Africa set.

One of the main things that drives away my interest is the gimmicky title - an obvious play on Wingspan that doesn't make sense on its own (nor is it explained anywhere, right?) Like the publisher knows it doesn't make sense unless you already know their hit game Wingspan. I dunno what a better name would be - titles are always very hars - but Wyrmspan rubs me the wrong way. Secondly, and just as much a personal opinion and taste, I wasn't looking for a more complex Wingspan. It seems like some of the extra steps added (exploring caves etc) don't add anything but complication and really dillute the importance of the engine building. That is a major factor as to why Wingspan caught on so much: a quite pure and compelling engine building game. It had just enough systems to make the engine building interesting without distracting from the thing you want to be doing: playing birds. This sequel feels a bit more aimless in the rules - a guild track? That's only there because gamers like tracks, not because it really pushes forward the main idea of the game: playing dragons. I really love Terry Pratchett's Disc World, which has a species of 2 foot tallish "swamp dragons" that rich people breed like cats and dogs. They are quite silly and adorable, so I resonated with the theme of dragons more being wildlife, even if it's a silly take on wildlife- I just don't know that the complications in the game serve the theme well. Of course, I'd have gotten it without question (and maybe then been slightly disappointed) if the theme had been breeding swamp dragons, but a Terry Pratchett fan service probably isn't the best thing fir a Wingspan sequel. ...which is also odd, since one of the factors that brought Wingspan to a lot of people's attention is that it was about real birds, not anything fictional. I wonder if this would do much better if it was about fish or some other real animal. It feels like they landed in ths gimnicky name first and stuck with that instead of working through what the lifeblood of Wingspan was - a beautiful menagerie of real-world birds.

I love engine building, But didn't enjoy Wingspan much at all. I've skipped over this by default, should I give it a try?

My review of this review is I think it’s an amateur review with weak and pedantic focus on nuanced personal preferences related to art and theme. Tom did well and delivered points that make sense including respecting and framing the theme properly.

I hope they make an app of this because I think I’d rather own a physical copy of Wingspan for the broader appeal and an app of Wyrmspan for the gameplay differences. Also, I have to say that I really don’t like the name Wyrmspan.

Very odd review! Agree with lots here. The energy and vibe was off. Zee came out as a huge elitist here. It’s funny he thought the art book was talking down to “nerds” then he proceeds to do exactly that. Very off putting!

How and why would you rate something so high but claim that you dont wanna play it?! I don't get it... This review makes no sense

Interesting. I never liked Wingspan, mostly for the theme. But the same (or bit better) game with dragons, I definitely want to try this. Yeah, I dont read the flavour texts in rulebooks either very often, but those can be skipped.

There's not only more meat in Wyrmspan but also more milk, amethyst and gold.

The way Zee feels about this cover/theme is exactly how I feel about Post Apocolyptic games. Incredibly boring and I steer clear as soon as I see the beige cover with Mad Max cars

This game is better than wingspan in litterally every mechanical aspect, but somehow people are salty about this.. and yeah, theme is personal preference so it shouldn't be a deciding point. I like dragons far better, but I wouldnt thrash the game if I somehow loved birds more, doesn't make any logical sense

Question is, does one's collection need both?

Zee’s anti dragon prejudice is outrageous. Someone needs to dress up as a dragon and invite him to play Wyrmspan at the next convention. Seriously, who doesn’t like dragons.

They should have gone with extinct birds/ reptiles/ animals/ Dinosaurs theme

This is such a weird review.

Played Wingspan, thought it was fine, but didn't pick it up. Wyrmspan sounds like a new version with marked improvements and a better theme (imo) which has convinced me to buy it. Also, this is *not* "generic" fantasy. The designs, setting, and world building are distinct and unique. Please see a dictionary if you've forgotten what the word means.

What a curmudgeonly review. Does adding some richness with non mechanical flavor to the game, which doesn't affect the actual play, really worth that level of irritation?