I misspoke! I actually believe that the Chinese youth selection system is the MOST important factor to their success. I made it seem like their drug program (whatever it may be) is the most important and I apologize for that.

Louie Simmonds and the Chinese Weightlifters is my favourite band

The sheer numbers in the Chinese sports university system and Olympic training system are staggering- not just in weightlifting, but all competitive sports. Take sanda (Chinese kickboxing) for example. I know guys who are absolute badass sanda fighters who got cut from their sports university programs for not being able to compete with their peers who moved on to the next level. It's hard for most people to wrap their heads around the extreme number of humans China has to draw from for sports that other countries don't.

I tell you one thing, as a middle aged lifter training in China with a local coach on my lunch break, Chinese system seems crazy technical to me. I had a 1 rep squat max of about 130kg and he had me training empty bar for almost a month before letting me squat any real weight. So much more emphasis on flexibility than anything I have seen on KZfaq so far.

Louie is a great guy and has successfully encouraged so many people around the world to get stronger. That makes this a difficult video to make. But I think Zack was very respectul and excellently articulated where he disagrees with Louie. Love the content, well done Coach ZT.

Yeah but the snatch is only 1/5th of your equipped bench so yeah hard to see where you're coming from here Zack

In the US weightlifting lives in the niche of lifting sports and said lifting sports are themselves already niche, there is 0 state structure and 0 monetary incentives, weightlifting is a pure hobby sport, meanwhile you have these other countries with strong state founded programs that pump a lot of resources into the sport, and weightlifting is viewed has a salvation from poverty and a legitimate way of life , of course they are going to have athletes with higher genetic potential and generally more dedication, plus simply more people actually doing the sport, like Zack stated has soon has US weightlifting had a jump of popularity you saw better results.

Weightlifting in China might be like football (soccer for my US friends) in Spain, UK, Italy and many places of Europe: many people go into the sport, the best are selected and maybe, just maybe, a few of them get the chance to play professionaly. That way the best athletes are participating. Like you said in one video, maybe the best weightlifter out there is working at a seven-eleven job and it is completely oblivious to the sport of Olympic Weightlifting. Promotion is key.

As someone who lifts at Westside and is in the gym with Lou 4 days a week, I will tell you that he does practice what he preaches. Reach out if you want some clarity or an explanation to some of your questions

Zack i like your critical perspective ...it seems you worry a lot about offending these big names, but there is a subtle difference between “calling out the bullshit, and not the bullshitter”. Hopefully they can tell the difference, but if not, they just don’t get it. This is how the field advances, so keep it up - voices like yours are what push things forward.

He’s back!

I actually love Louie Simmons. I've been a "fan" of Westside Barbell for nearly 20 years, mostly I found inspiration in the atmosphere and mentality that the Westside lifters seemed to have. That gym has produced not only some of the best powerlifters the sport has ever seen but also some of the most notable coaches and fitness personalities in the world today. Mark Bell, Dave Tate, John Meadows, JM Blakely, Swede Burns, Matt Wenning, etc. Even the great Ed Coan credits Louie as being a friend and mentor to him back in the day. That being said, I'll be the first to admit Louie is NOT always right.

Great video Zack. WSBB does have an open door policy that I have taken advantage of a few times and this would also be a great discussion for their podcast. It might be worth considering taking the trip to share a qualified and current opinion with Louie and Tom. Thanks for all you do.

Yesterday I watched this video, and today Hampton Morris did USA's first WR in 55 years.

The strongest enemy of Louie Simmons is Louie Simmons

the problem for the US is lack of talent. and there's lack of talent because the best people don't want to put their effort into a sport that has a very low input:output payoff when they could be playing a high-profile and $$$$$ sport like football.

I've never squatted or pulled as heavy and as frequently as I have on weightlifting programs. Since there's no reason to train the press like you would the bench press in powerlifting, tons of volume in every weightlifting program I've ever seen and used is devoted to heavy-ass pulls and squats. Louie is a legend in equipped powerlifting, and Rippetoe... uh, coaches some elderly people sometimes, I guess, but they're both way out of their depth every time they opine on a sport they do not participate in or contribute to in any meaningful way.

The Chinese selection system has a bias of choosing the naturally more technical kids over the naturally stronger ones. You actually have to think about the genius of their bias. The naturally technical kids are generally more 'built to do weightlifting' than the naturally stronger ones. If you have an impressive technique despite the lack of experience, then you have the perfect body type/ proportions for weightlifting.

Louie is a great guy and has helped me and countless others Guys a legend.

If Louis Simmons says you need to do more snatch grip deadlifts, then God dammit you need to do more snatch grip deadlifts!!

Why nothing is said about the fact that you can make a living from just weightlifting if you make it on a team in Russia ( assuming China too). Like no job - you just lift weights. And you get decent salary. What do you get if you make it on US team (excluding possible sponsors or ad revenue)?

As always I love the content. I also really love the care taken to be clear that this is respectful critique from someone who is “one the same side,” given all the mindless beefing that happens on social. There is obviously a huge scientific component to this sport and respectfully debating what the data mean is an important part of science, even if it’s not the norm on KZfaq etc.

Your take 13:30 makes his point. Too many American coaches are afraid to try new things. I very rarely see unorthodox pulls and back exercises being done. Maybe I live in a shoebox

Let’s go morning upload squad 🤝✅ Here for the algo, keep up the consistent content zach channels really been blowing up’

Louie is the skinner meme. Am I wrong? No, no it's the kids who are wrong.

Has Louis ever trained someone to the peak of weightlifting even national ?

Good vid and breakdown man. One Louie anecdote that sticks out to me is I remember reading he always asked somebody looking to train at WSBB one key question -- "Who do you want to train at Westside?" For which there was only one acceptable answer: "To break world records." Anyways, that's not really very relevant to the discussion but I thought I'd share it anyways.

I think Louie was partially correct here. We have a strength difference with the other traditionally weightlifting countries. Look at our top athletes in the sport. They almost all exclusively come from crossfit. They weren't selected to be weightlifters, they became ones because they wanted to. How many of those athletes would Chinese or old school Bulgarians pick to be a part of the team? I tell ya, zero. Drugs are definitely a factor, but a factor after this selection process. Russians looked at children as young as 9 and determined if they could cut it. In the US, mainly former athletes (like gymnasts and cheerleaders) chose weightlifting AFTER completing their previous career. Plus, let's admit our girls won only because others where banned from competing.

Your arguments are so structured and respectful. Bow to you, sir.

I'm in the process of transitioning from CrossFit to Olympic Weightlifting only. I enjoy the technicality and the nuance of the lifts too much and would rather do that everyday. I believe it's important to remind ourselves that every individual has different aspects of their lifts to work on. I'm a small athlete (155#, 5'5"), and it's really tough for me to add strength. Therefore, I focus a lot on heavy pulls, squats, frequent near max snatch/cj attempts. Technique and speed have been something I can pick up much faster so there's less focus there in going for improvements. For example, my current clean is 255# and my front squat is 280# (~91% ratio). Lastly, I focus a lot on mobility as my hamstrings, mid/upper back, lats, shoulders are tight!

To argue against Louie's point at 10:00, I have a 275 front squat, a 365lb back squat, and a 425lb conventional deadlift. My snatch and c&j are 185 and 225 respectively. This correlates more with my squat than my deadlift, meaning my legs are the bottleneck here. If my legs were stronger, I could lift more weight on the olympic lifts. Upping my deadlift will add minimal improvement to my olympic lifts. Conversely, I know plenty of people who have a squat much closer to their deadlift, and their snatch and c&j are still correlating with their squat numbers in the same fashion, meaning they have higher numbers than me despite a weaker pull. Leg strength is king in weightlifting.

Thanks for reacting on the podcast. Great content!

I notice that powerlifter always criticize weightlifting on performance. But on the other side weightlifters don't really give a shit about powerlifters lol. It's like they know they have bigger squats and deadlifts, but they know damn sure that doing a proper snatch with an empty bar ATG is hard AF for them lol.

It’s difficult to evaluate what Louie says when considering the disjointed presentation style that he articulates himself with. There’s reasons for that, of course, but it makes it harder to track and then engage the contentions he asserts and how he justifies them.

Zack, if you noticed, our biggest improvements in weightlifting has come on the women's side not the men's side. And that's because the world isn't that far ahead of us on women's weightlifting because their countries haven't been vested in the sport that much longer than us (on the women's side). I think Louie (being an old man) was referring to men.

Small point: I think it would be more fair to say that, if Simmons (or Rippetoe or whoever) is going to say that American weightlifting coaches are not training strength correctly, it's not necessarily that they need to train lifters to do better (Zack's claim around 9:15), but that they need to specifically detail what the programming should be that is both (a) not what American coaches already do and (b) not contrary to what the winning teams are doing.

Louie Simmons and Westside Barbell should focus more on perfecting the art of quarter squats.

The same thing that Japanese coach was saying in Japan. Good lifters have strong back, Mr louie was saying it also 2 years ago.

This is my 2nd video of you that I've watched. I like your vibe man.

a very nice video.... I do have one thing to note about our coaches not stressing strength. Zack said he didn't know of any coaches not pushing strength.i have been in olympic lifting for 59 plus years . I can think of three coaches offhand in the midwest who don't push strength. one in particular told me it was only necessary to front squat 10 kilos more than the lifters best clean! no names obviously in this forum but maybe sometime over a beer,,,,

Why do people keep calling Ukraine, "The Ukraine"? It's not the times of the Soviet Union

RIP to the LEGEND! 🇺🇸🇺🇸

I know this may sound pedantic, but ku Xiaojun has always been 77-81 kg as a senior (170-179 lbs), not 154 lbs. That's a 16-25 lb difference...

The point is simple: it is not that you dont train strenght, the point is that you dont train strenght ENOUGH. That it is. Sthephy Cohen said something similar in one of your own videos. She mentions that some poeple (in Crossfit I think) do a lot more than Olympic lifters in military/strict press. Put more priority into old fashion muscle and strenght and you will do better in Olympic lifting. And that means UPPER BODY AS WELL!!!

Lou's protocols for strength increase are pretty pretty pretty clear. Rogue used to have a T with his justification quote as well. "When i go to war i go to kill, not to get killed".

Simmons/Rippetoe are gonna continue to say this till they either drop dead or every weightlifter can go toe-to-toe with a similarly-sized powerlifter in the power lifts. They're butthurt over the prestige attributed to WL over PL. What they actually want is validation that powerlifters (esp. the ones they produce) are every bit as athletic/good/sexy as weightlifters. As long as they can hold 900lbs+ squats over the WL world's head they'll never shut the fuck up.

Louis means that our lifters are weak. They have weak CNS output. That they’re legs are strong but their backs are weak. He’s believes and built a lot of his own approaches to power from Russian weightlifting. Volume, resistance, accessory work. Good morning, reverse hypers, hamstrings.. it’s one of his first podcasts but he talks on weightlifting. He believes that America focus’s on form way to much. That when they put 10 more pounds on the bar they can’t make the list, that if they catch the bar wrong they don’t have the raw strength to save the lift. There’s substance in anything. Louis is rough around the edges and can be judged by his appearance but he is a smart man and has trained in weightlifting and trained weightlifters. He may not be right, but he’s not wrong. I like his quote that if strength didn’t matter there wouldn’t be weight classes.

Leg strength will only get you so far in WL. You could back squat 400kg, but that doesn't mean you will clean and jerk it. The closer the Oly lifts are to your max squat numbers, the better technique you have.

13:10 about that, the Italians are having pretty good success with a rather squat heavy approach/a big focus on leg strength.

Former hockey player and weightlifter, here. For the most part you are correct about how the Russians learned to play hockey. Anatoly Tarasov, the father of Russian hockey was also a bandy coach. Bandy is similar to hockey where it's played on ice, but with a stick similar to a field hockey stick and a ball. The strategy of both sports is the same, put the puck or the ball in the net. The Russians used a finesse style of play where they would change positions during play such as the center moving to wings, defensemen moving to center, center moving to defenseman, ect. The Canadians used more of a zone defense and offense. The Russians focused mainly on skating drills and puck handling drills which are the basis of their play, and the fundamental hockey. How does this relate to Weightlifting in the USA? Stick to perfecting the snatch and clean and jerk, focus on the basics of Weightlifting training. We have a growing pool thanks to crossfit, with more and more coaches learning the fundamentals of Weightlifting. What is the point of getting a huge squat or deadlift if your technique is going to fall apart? It defeats the purpose. The Russians focused on the basics fundamentals of hockey, we need to focus on the basics of Weightlifting. Sorry for the long dissertation.

Please review lifts of Caeleb Dressel. His currently fastest swimmer in the world. Most of his dry land(strength training) is Olympic lifts. But his Olympic lifts doe not exceed above 70kg.

Only 6:06 into it and I had to make my first comment about the person who cleans 360 and front squats 370. First, this lifter has amazingly efficient technique. But more importantly, we don't know anything about this lifter or this lifter's coach. Louis wants us to infer that this lifter has a crappy coach because the lifter only front squats 370. If this lifter is in their mid 20s and lifting for over a decade, yeah, this lifter has a crappy coach. But this changes if the lifter is a teenager and their coach currently has the lifter on a strength cycle designed to increase squat strength. This cherry-picking of data with no context gets really tiresome really fast.

Chinese lifter also get randomly tested, they follows the same protocol.

what zack said made a lot of sense, based on the info given i would be inclined to agree

Why does no body mention that the Chinese have superior fold mechanics/leverages. All of these dudes have long ass torsos and Tiny femurs. And maybe have better hip sockets. All of the Asians I know can do an easy third world squat all while having never lived a day different from mine. Just like any sport, certain proportions have an advantage. These dudes are built for the sport. null the heavy weights where there is so much flesh a squat barely happens.

Every country needs this kind of support @03:32

You are quite well spoken and are walking a tightrope criticizing Simmons but your points were well made. Why do you think in all these years with his reputation nobody has recruited him to train Olympic lifting? First and probably foremost is Westside has many members using 'roids. I also don't believe he is the type to be part of a team of coaches, he has spent too many years coaching people that go to his gym only where his word is final. There is only so much time that Olympic lifters can spend on other exercises and don't believe for a second they are neglecting basic power movements.

Just stumbled onto your channel! Just wanted to say I’m loving the content!

I think Louie is used to being almost the messiah of strength in the US, and therefore what he says is irrefutable in his mind. A lot of what he has done for strength sports in the US is great, but in the interest of sport specificity, especially on the world level, his reasoning lacks (I think) because of no exposure to that type of athlete. "I do not know what I do not know"

I was an Olympic lifter in the 1970's and could overhead press my bodyweight for 10 reps. I've seen some of the modern lifters not even press their weight. I would back squat well over my best clean for sets of 10 and front squat my clean for reps ! Olympic lifters need to be strong.

This is simply what happens when a Strength only coach starts criticizing a sport where Strength is only 1 major part of a sport.

These lifts take practice, not strength. That’s why they don’t focus on strength because that’s 25% of a lift like this

A lot of great points raised all round. I do agree with Louie that American weightlifters aren't as strong as they should be. But they definitely are working on strength. I heard great things about Zaks programs. Loads of general strength that'll give the capability of supporting heavier Snatches and Cleans. I definitely felt Louie was better at conveying his point over Rip.

What if it's not a programming or technique problem? What if it's just that anyone who has Olympic potential goes into a sport that pays well?

Zack, I really Love and appreciate your work, the passion and all that, and have been following you almost since you started the channel. But seriously, you need to re-evaluate your positions on drug use. Kate Nye, in my opinion, is a very good example of it. Maybe (and I really don't know, honestly) you guys are selecting the wrong athletes, or Maybe the wrong methodology. Take Colombia, for example, they probably don't even have 10,000 People weightlifting, and the have much better results in weightlifting. The drug use argument, in my opinion, has been detrimental for you coaches to just get better.

I matters who is in the room. Training partners matter. I was a very good weightlifter, took a break for a bit, returned but didn't have a gym to go to. I never reached my potential and burned myself out training alone. About 6 days a week for 3 years and I was never able to beat PRs that a hit 1 year into weightlifting. I had a coach who's name rhymes with snacks beta so I know the coaching was no point. Now when I look at a barbell it is with pure hatred and discust. For 3 years no fun was had. Training partners matter.

That's mostly true, but not the full truth. First of all, I was extremely surprised more than a decade ago, when I learned that my Eastern European country traded places in Powerlifting with the USA. We tended to do better in lower weight classes, so obviously it wasn't simply about the gear. The thing is, at the time around here nobody knew what Powerlifting even was? The gym goers were clueless about it. And they could beat you guys? Back then, when Louie was so universally regarded, you guys definitely did something wrong. Then you changed. I remember Smalcerz being hired by you guys, for a little while, because you couldn't be bothered to stick with the project. Anyway, he predicted you gonna do much better after about six years. And you did. So over all, Zack is most likely correct. Your training is fine right now. You are getting beat by mass selection and gear. But when Louie was in vogue, you were getting beat at *his* sport, not the sport he pretends to understand.

Someone tell Louie about Vardanyan's absurd c&j to front squat ratio

It sounds like he's saying that the first pull for the clean should set up more like a stiff-leg deadlift instead of relying primarily on leg-drive. I don't necessarily agree. It's just what I'm trying to gather from his comments.

How’s sikastan s youth selection system I bet the Chinese are getting nervous

I'm doing one of your programs right now and it has and I expect will continue to make me stronger. My pulls have improved immensely.

This video has single handedly inspired me to try weightlifting.

Man I’ve been wanting to get into weightlifting for a few years now, but there isn’t a coach close enough to me to teach me and I don’t really have to money to even if there was. It’s super tough but I suppose I’ll just enjoy this content either way

Louie is to Oly lifting as a soggy potato is to a advanced supercomputer

Full watched. I still love Louie and his ideas but as someone trying to grow we have to take certain useful things from multiple people and we don’t always have to agree with all of the ideology.

About China selecting their lifters, i read a tweet from Steve Sailer (yes that guy) on how China's selection is. One girl wanted to be a vet, that was her dream. She had awesome leverages for weightlifting so she was selected even though she wasn't drawn to the sport. She was told she could pursue becoming a vet after she won a gold medal. That's how serious China is with weightlifting

That's wrong about Chinese weightlifters drug testing. If they're an Olympian, they're drug tested anytime 365 days a year under usada. And trust me, they pick on the Chinese weightlifters all the time. The Chinese have it the hardest with all the western scrutiny. Even if they're just born big like the Chinese female superstar Li wen wen, people will pick on her, saying she's on steroids when it's just the fact that she is genetically big because she is of Manchu ancestry.

Louis should do equipose v stanazolol podcast… something he’s experience of

thank you zack for yet another wholesome lunch

Enjoyed this video Zack. Good one

Louis and Mark : Olympic weighlifting have been doing the same thing since the 70s The rest of the world : but.. powerlifter have been doing the same thing since the 70s to Louis and Mark realising : ...listen here you little shit !

Louie said it himself: They dropped the press, and people started believing speed is more important than strength. In the press, speed is not a factor. In the jerk, it is probably the most important factor. Also, lifts were no contact in the old school days, so strength was much more important. With contact, however, speed becomes much more important. Seems like Louie just likes the old school days more. Which is cool, but contemporary weightlifting is just a different sport. Also, if you think strength is what's holding us back, you could just compare simple squat and pull numbers. My guess is that US athletes squat and pull numbers will ve similar to those of other countries. If strength were the primary issue, just increasing your squat and pull would be the answer, but anybody who has been in weightlifting knows that people with relatively lower strength numbers routinely outperform stronger people in the snatch and clean and jerk.

Zack the ending music seems like Denis & Denis' (Yugoslav pop duo)'program tvog kompjutera' ?

Love the vids! Was wondering, have you ever used UESAKA bars and plates? And if so, what is your opinion on them, Thanks

National testing is not only present but also very frequent in China. Top athletes are tested 30/40 times a year, and many tests are conducted surprisingly. The Chinese team was tested 600+ times in 2020 despite Covid. WADA and the Chinese agency conduct testing. There're also what's called "deterrence mechanisms". For instance, if you're popped, then not only you but also your coach, your teammates, and/or even your local team will be suspended, at least for years. This did happen to the three popped athletes in the 2008 Olympics, who all followed the same coach.

You gotta remember too, some of Americas top athletes go on to play football or basketball, not weightlifting. This is not the case in other countries where weightlifting and the Olympics is the highest goal.

I really like this long form type of video

Holy shit that outro. This was the last place I thought I'd hear that song.

How many Olympic lifters has Louie coached to success? I'm waiting....... Why has Ohio State not involved Louie in their athletic programs EVER? Even though he is in Columbus.

There is room for creativity. I would use a simple aid that adds about 15 - 30 pounds of resistance.

I understand American weightlifting coaches are way better now. But Back in the day American weightlifting coaches really did say a lot of the things Louie is arguing against. Technique and speed was all that mattered in their eyes. So he isn’t getting that out of nowhere.

love to see chinese lifter...their tech is so smooth and they have the best body

I started lifting as a 5'10 kid. I gained weight, gained weight, gained weight and my lifts went up. Then my BW continued to go up and my lifts didn't and in fact went down in the squat. I am currently, at 44, losing weight gradually to pump my lifts up again.

Watching this again after Hamp broke a Sr. world record

I don't think you know "the truth" as you put it either Zack. All I ever see on your channel is very un-outrageous, middle way, generic opinions, and a personality that is completely crafted and fake. You a saw a famous youtuber one day and thought "im just gonna become this guy". I find it disrespectful to Louie that you even think anyone should hear your opinion side by side with his. The worst part is when you compare yourself as a coach to Louie, honestly embarrassing.

US has recently been dominating powerlifting, i.e John Hackk, Russel Orhii, Julius Maddox, Ray Williams due to its increasing popularity. I hope weightlifting sees the same surge and we get some freaks of nature with the spread of the sport

Louie knows strength, but he is very biased and is a bit out of touch with raw powerlifting and, to a greater degree, weightlifting. I think it would be a mistake to ignore all of his suggestions. I may have said this before, but I have identical twin boys, aged 16. They are high school basketball players and I program their GPP/lifting in the off season. They always start off at or a little below where we left off, particularly in the clean. I did a little 5 week experiment, using mini bands. My thesis: bands wouldn't transfer to a regular clean, because of the bar path, etc. I tried to match volume, load and intensity, but had them perform 6 sets of 3 with bands constituting 30% of the load at the top. (Measured with the luggage scale at the top.) My sample size is laughable-2. However, kid A, using the bands, improved his clean by 15kgs, while Kid W, using no bands improved by 5kgs over the course of 5 weeks. I then had them both start using bands at least once per week and kid W almost caught up with Kid A. This may mean nothing, placebo, or it might have caused some legit improvement in force production. Weightlifting is GPP for them so it doesn't matter that much, but I think it's worth a look. At least for younger athletes. Oh, I actually talked via telephone with Louie back in the late 90's. He gave me an hours worth of advice and encouragement and actually told me to call back any time I had any other questions. I thought it was super generous of him give so much of his time to some random teenager from Georgia I will never forget that.

You may have addressed this before, but coming from someone who has trained weightlifting 2 years very dedicated, trained powerlifting and strongman very dedicated for even longer. Both powerlifting and weightlifting focus on the same thing at the end of the day, the COMPETITION lifts. What does a powerlifters workout regimen generally include? Squat, bench, deadlift and accessories to improve those movements. I bet they wouldn’t tell their powerlifting students that they need to run faster to squat more weight, they would say they need to squat more often which means what? Improving technique. Yes there are accessories but at the end of the day no matter the sport, your majority of energy is put into the technique and strength of the fundamental movements of that sport. You don’t tell a sprinter to squat heavy everyday for hours and that’ll improve their sprint and you don’t tell a powerlifter to sprint jump and do handstands everyday to improve their SBD.

Genetics, Drugs, feeder process, training, diet and in that order.

Now this is how to put out a respectful disagreeing video.