@@Know_the-truth.1 Hi! I just looked at the settings.. comments should be available now. Can you expand what you mean by “proper separation”? Thanks!

Haha, that is wild!! 😝

They sure did add some footnotes. Loads and loads of ‘em. Sometimes there’s more footnotes than verses! Here’s a footnote that I found particularly interesting: *Matthew 16:18 footnote on “build”:* _The Lord’s building of His church began on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4, 41-42). Yet the Lord’s prophecy here still has not been fulfilled, even up to the twentieth century. The Lord is not building up His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This prophecy is being fulfilled through the Lord’s recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished._ *(Footnote found in Matthew 16:18, The Holy Bible: Recovery Version, Witness Lee, Published by Living Stream Ministries, 2022.* What a fascinating thing it is to sneak in a footnote talking about how your denomination is the only place where God is building up the “genuine” church.

I suppose that’s why Witness Lee and his successors are always trying to silence the testimonies of former members and leaders. They’re so afraid of the truth of their folly coming to light. They are scared of losing their influence over the assemblies in The Lord’s Recovery, so all they can do is paint others like John Ingalls and Jo Casteel as “rebels.” I exhort any current or former members here to read born-and-raised member *Jo Casteel’s Open Letter to the Saints in The Lord’s Recovery* as well as former elder John Ingalls’ testimony regarding the “rebellion” of the 80s in his free-to-read book *”Speaking the Truth in Love: A True Account of Events and Concerns Related to The Local Churches 1987 -1989”*

@@Love_Cruelty Many people end up drowning in their efforts to swim against this tide. This ministry has caused a lot of damage due to their pride and arrogance. It’s a great battle just to get members to acknowledge these things, let alone do anything about it.

Here is a pledge of allegiance to Witness Lee and Living Stream Ministry signed by 419 elders from various churches in The Lord’s Recovery (big “R”): _I received a long letter of twenty-seven pages on the morning of our final day of fellowship in this elders’ training. The first page is the contents of the letter, and all the rest of the twenty-six pages are signatures. All the signatures are designated from the different churches. After reading the contents, I am so grateful to the four hundred and nineteen brothers who signed it. The contents of this letter follow, along with my letter of response to the brothers who signed it._ _February 21, 1986 Anaheim, California_ _Dear Brother Lee,_ _After hearing your fellowship in this elders’ training, we all agree to have a new start in the Lord’s recovery. For this, we all agree to be in one accord and to carry out this new move of the Lord solely through prayer, the Spirit, and the Word. We further agree to practice the recovery one in: teaching, practice, thinking, speaking, essence, appearance, and expression. We repudiate all differences among the churches, and all indifference toward the ministry, the ministry office, and the other churches. We agree that the church in our place be identical with all the local churches throughout the earth. We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God’s New Testament economy and has led us into its practice. We agree that this leading is indispensable to our oneness and acknowledge the one trumpet in the Lord’s ministry and the one wise master builder among us. We further agree to practice the church life in our locality absolutely in a new way: to build the church in, through, and based upon home meetings; to lead every member to get used to functioning without any idea to depend on any giant speakers; to teach all the saints to know the basic truths in an educational way that they may teach others for the spreading of the truth; to build up the saints in the growth in life that they may minister life to others, shepherd each other, and take care of the backsliding ones; to lead all the saints to preach the gospel in every possible way; to avoid leadership as much as possible; and to have home gatherings for nurturing the saints in life and big meetings for educating the saints in truths. We agree that all the preceding points are the clear and definite teaching of the Bible according to God’s New Testament economy. Finally, we agree that the success of this new move is our responsibility and will rise up to labor and endeavor with our whole being, looking to the Lord for His mercy and grace that we would be faithful to the end._ _Your brothers for the Lord’s recovery_ **(Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life Pulse Of The Lord’s Present Move, From the Collected Works of Watchman Lee, 1986, Vol. 1, Chapter 10, published by Living Stream Ministry)** The implementation of a “one publication” mandate which obligated the assemblies in The Lord’s Recovery to abide by the teachings of LSM further cemented this loyalty to Witness Lee and Living Stream Ministry even after his death. Witness Lee himself has stated not only that he and his disciples are in The Lord’s Recovery, but that they ARE The Lord’s Recovery. The leaven of Witness Lee and his Living Stream Ministry has done quite a number on the spiritual, psychological, and at times even the physical health of his disciples. Witness Lee was proudly proclaimed as the “Minister of the Age” who has God’s one plan for all the churches on the earth, the “Acting God on earth” whose lead we must follow lest we be rebelling against God, “God’s deputy authority” who may not ever be corrected or rebuked lest we incur the wrath of God, and the one who “has the oracle of God” and all the light of the scriptures in his writings. “Witness Lee” “The Lord’s Recovery” “The Local Churches” They have taken many names, and not just “legally” but in their hearts and minds.

And, notice how it is signed “Your brothers for the Lord’s recovery.” (SMALL “r”). Your argument is invalid. Of course, when you’re using the words in a “title” (such as a title of a book), then you have to capitalize for grammar sake. And that would be the case when there will be a capitalized “R.” Around 1986 was when there were some causing trouble. Much of what is written on these pages, also has to do with the concurrent history of the time. But if you’re not aware, and you’re just looking back, it may not make as much sense to you. And people can be taking things out of context. There is NO “Lord’s recovery” “MOVEMENT” - this has been spoken against many times & WL himself said many times NOT to be a “movement.” Movements are derived from human activity.

@@orhbo0 Calling themselves “your brothers in The Lord’s recovery” does not invalidate years of establishing and propagating an authoritarian church structure, and they have gone to great lengths to reinforce this authority. They pledged allegiance to a man, his ministry office, and his ministry. Just about everyone, supporters included, sees this as a cohesive and easily identifiable group of Christians united under a single banner. This is not simply “the recovery.” It is “The Recovery.” And Witness Lee wrote that statement inside of his book, not as part of a title. Members of The Lord’s Recovery know what they’re in, whether they’re bold enough to admit it or not. Around 1986 there were many speaking up and challenging Witness Lee for a handful of reasons. Two of the most prominent ones were: 1. Witness Lee covering up his son Phillip who had sexually abused some sisters at the LSM office. 2. The abuse of authority of the LSM office, headed by Phillip Lee, which was trying to exercise complete authority over all of the assemblies in the Local Churches. When this started coming to light, Witness Lee’s reaction was much like a dictator’s. His main preaching, now, seemed to be of those who were “loyal” and those who were “rebels.” He began to demand loyalty from the elders, and spoke constantly of his own importance. This is evidenced by many things such as: 1. Several elders testifying about his instability at the Pasadena conference where he declared himself to be God’s oracle who should be praised and respected. 2. The acute development and/or propagation of authoritarian doctrines which focused on centralizing control on Witness Lee and his publishing company Living Stream Ministry (eg. “Minister of the Age,” “Deputy Authority,” “One Publication,” “Ground of Locality.”) 3. The heavy repercussions against those who refused to submit to Witness Lee’s and his most zealous disciples’ self-declared authority. It was so bad that there were even a few churches who agreed with his teachings yet rejected him and his son having direct authority. Even they knew that this was unhealthy. Several former elders who were active at this time testified to these things in their publications. *John Ingalls* wrote his testimony in a book titled *”Speaking the Truth in Love: A True Account of Events and Concerns Related to The Local Churches 1987 -1989”* which is freely available to read online. *John Myer* spoke of these things in his book *“A Future and a Hope: Church Life Beyond the Local Church Movement”* which is freely available to read online. *Steve Isitt* tesstified to these things in various publications which are available on Amazon. Several titles by Steve Isitt include: 1) In the Wake of the New Way: The costly Movement of a Man and a Ministry; 2) The Rosemead Rebellion; 3) Hiding History in the Nee and Lee Eras of The Lord’s Recovery; 4) The Church of Gideon and His 300 Men: Gideon’s Rise and the Churches Fall; 5) What Deputy Authority is Not: Examining Andrew Yu’s Book of Defamation and Deputy Authority Run Amok; and 6) A Time of Turmoil and the Defaming of a Leader: Examining Ron Kangas’ Slanted and Superficial Depiction of John Ingalls. Many of the so-called “rebels” were actually men who had tried to fellowship with Witness Lee and his more zealous disciples in order to facilitate peace and understanding, but because they vehemently stood against Lee’s authoritarian slant and rejected a central authority for the assemblies in The Lord’s Recovery, they were labeled as “rebels” for their efforts. The damage of false doctrines and authoritarianism is becoming more apparent as the years go on as evidenced by Jo Casteel’s open letter to the saints in The Lord’s Recovery (freely available to read online.) After speaking up against the authoritarianism and false doctrines of The Local Church, she was painted as an agent of the Devil and later even more harshly as a demon-possessed woman despite the fact that hundreds of current and ex-members echoed her concerns throughout the churches in the United States. Others who have made the brave decision to speak up include: 1. *Jacob Howard* (did a few KZfaq interviews and created a website to elaborate on Recovery doctrine and practice) 2. *Jane Anderson* (published her testimony in a book titled *“The Thread of Gold”* as well as a free-to-read open letter titled *“Can the Local Church Leadership Say, ‘We Were Wrong’?”*) 3. *Andrea McArdle* (published an open letter speaking up about an incident of abused that she was told to cover up). 4. Various former members who have spoken up on KZfaq about similar, if not identical, concerns of authoritarianism on KZfaq such as: a) Texas Street Preacher; b) The Lord’s Recovery Unchained; and c) LRPhenomenon Countless testimonies given by current and former members online in forums like “Local Church Discussions” and platforms such as Reddit, KZfaq, and even TikTok. They, too, testified to the obsession with and veneration of Witness Lee and his doctrines, and many have also testified to experiencing and/or witnessing abuses covered up in the Local Churches as well as hearing from friends/family in their who were abused and told to remain silent. The prevalence and consistency regarding testimonies of abuse of power and abuse of church members should serve as a red flag to you and others in The Lord’s Recovery so that you may examine yourselves, but unfortunately leaders of The Lord’s Recovery have only doubled down on their authoritarian tendencies and attempts to silence the testimonies of those speaking up against them.

👍❤‍🩹

I am SO sorry you experienced that. And I am even more sorry you attempted to commit suicide. I really hope you have been able to heal since. It really is serious what happens in the group. Thank you for commenting.💛

From 3-12 grade I attended a private Nazarene school. I have attended several christian churches outside of LSM. I agree that yes, most churches push the agenda of them having the right message. What I did not see with other groups was the push back against someone who questioned their teachings. It is a massive red flag when you start to question the people in charge and get called “evil, or back slide.” Their approach to getting new believers into their group is very very sly. I would be very careful with how much you are involved with them. I remember a new guy from campus once coming into the meetings. He knew the Bible better than most of the believers who were in the group a long time. He would sit and try and understand where the church was coming from, and they would have debates with him for hours trying to make him understand their perspective. Looking back on it now, he should’ve left when he had the chance. He was right to second guess these teachings. Now, he’s deep into the group and not even the same person. The transition from first entering the group to who you’ll become if you stay, is astonishing. There’s a reason I keep getting emails from family members of people in the group desperately pleading for help to get their children out. Being part of this group isn’t helping people/families. It’s destroying them.

@@ritzsticks12 there is nothing wrong with trying to convince someone of your understanding of what the Bible is saying. I have brought up differences and of course they try to talk to me about it, but Ive never been harrassed or felt negative after. In fact, with one experience, someone complimented me for questioning, relating it back to the verses about searching the Bible for what people say. We should all be open to that and there is nothing crazy with LSM's understanding of the Bible. The one thing that I have the biggest problem (personally) with is outter darkness, but even that is not something to divide over. Can I ask you what change occurred in them that was so bad?

You just did.

​@@Peanut9527ie have an opinion

@@nats77710 You certainly do.

Whether someone is for or against...ultimately you should know Christ and ask Him His hearts desire.

@@nats77710 Indeed. Oftentimes people are ignorant to what Christ wants. That’s why there are many evils that occur in the assemblies. The word of God gets twisted. Men Lord it over those they should be taking care of. People who speak up are shunned and silenced. Those who _should_ be speaking up and taking a stand run from their responsibility to defend the faith and protect God’s sheep, making excuses for themselves. It is a tragic thing, this.

I can tell you this: All those older brothers and sisters in The Lord’s Recovery who gave my young adult colleagues weird looks because of their boyfriends/girlfriends who came from another church think that we don’t hear their whisperings and see the looks they give when they think we cannot hear or see them. They are very wrong. They also think that the young people don’t notice the whisperings and looks. They are very, very wrong. I could go on, but I already addressed some other precious child of God on here who set their mental faculties aside and immediately labeled this sister as a liar without giving her concerns a bit of thought.

⁠@@Love_CrueltyI guess the hundreds of ex-members who have testified here and elsewhere are all just liars… even though most of them are bringing up the same concerns. Of course, it’s easier to just dismiss them as “negative speakers.” Don’t listen to the negative things. Just listen to the positive things. Of course… if you’re speaking negative things… *you’re the problem.* Sounds like toxic positivity to me.

@@Love_Cruelty A hard word, but a true word.

Sounds like you got me all figured out.😉 Actually, how did I not see this before? You must be a great judge of character. I guess the other hundreds of comments that agree must also be fallen souls of some sort. 🧐

⁠@@ritzsticks12 If someone stands against The Lord’s Recovery, nothing else matters. Keeping in line with The Lord’s Recovery takes precedence even over the scriptures. It is a large part of why so many ex-members, Christian or not, can be so casually dismissed as those who “did not have the controlling vision.” As Witness Lee wrote to the elders: _We are here for the Lord’s recovery. I am not doing my own work, and you are not doing your own work. We all are bearing one testimony; we all have our shoulders under the “poles” of the “Ark.” Since we are all bearing the one testimony, we all should speak the same thing (1 Cor. 1:10). But the speaking in certain places is leading the saints in a direction that is away from the Lord’s recovery. Such speaking may not be wrong or unscriptural. It may be right and scriptural, but eventually it will lead the saints in a wrong direction._ _If we go in a straight line, we will reach a proper goal. But if our direction is off, eventually we will reach a goal that is not the goal of the Lord’s recovery. Even after a short period of time, trouble may come to the recovery through your way of speaking scriptural things, that is, through your speaking of good messages. Although there is nothing wrong with your speaking, it may lead others in a wrong direction. If so, eventually that will become a problem to the whole recovery._ _The recovery is not merely a local matter. Although the recovery is in your local church, the recovery is universal. If you lead those in your locality in a direction that is off from the recovery, then there will be two directions-the direction in the recovery as a whole and the direction in your locality. If you teach in a way that leads others in a different direction, some may receive your teaching, but many of those in the Lord’s recovery will reject it. They will not “swallow” your teaching._ _From experience we know that the one who teaches differently is the first one to be sacrificed. This means that if you teach differently, you run the risk not of sacrificing the recovery but of sacrificing yourself. We all need to practice Paul’s word to Timothy: “Even as I exhorted you, when I was going into Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus in order that you might charge certain ones not to teach different things” (1 Tim. 1:3). Instead of teaching differently, we should all speak the same thing._ *(Elders’ Training, Book 3: The Way to Carry Out the Vision, from the Collected Works of Witness Lee, 1984, Volume 2, Chapter 12, p. 343)* Their main priority is not binding people to the word of God, but rather the word of Lee.

Just some questions for you, since you’ve clearly put a lot of time and effort into commenting on my video. Have you tried convincing your fiancée to be in the group? Or have you spoken to other members in private about how you wish he could “see the truth”? Or have you accepted him and his beliefs as he is and you don’t care if he ever joins? How would you feel if he saw this video? If you’ve tried to make him come into the group, or have schemed with other “saints” about how to get him to “see”, then you MAY be in a cult. Just sayin 🤷🏻‍♀️

@@ritzsticks12 it seems to me like you have a strict mental dichotomy that says someone is either “in the group” or “not in the group” and that isn’t really reflective of the experience I have. As you know there are many meetings throughout the week, not just on Sundays, and I have invited my fiancée to come along to the ones that work with my schedule for that week; sometimes he says yes, sometimes no, and either way is always fine! He is a very independent person and doesn’t like going along with anything just because everyone else is doing it so it would be impossible to pressure him even if I wanted to. He chooses to come or stay home as he wants to and there’s no problem. He has even gone by himself without me before. When he does come, he has told me he thinks the saints are cool people and he enjoys what we read. We have even talked about some of the points that Nee/Lee makes that we don’t agree with but that has never made us not want to continue meeting with the saints in the future. He and I are both free to come and go as we please. I’m really sorry that it doesn’t seem to have been that way for you. That is the love of God: to love unconditionally, whether I come to a meeting or not. And I’m curious, you have said repeatedly the phrase “see the truth” or “see…” can you explicitly state what you think the church is trying to get people to see, other than the love of God and His intention for our lives as the church? I’m also wondering if you’ve since left the faith or if you’re still a believer. I hope your bad experience with that locality hasn’t turned you away from the love of Jesus which makes us sisters in Him. Just to share a little about myself, I was a hardcore atheist most of my life, I hated God and religious people. I had a dynamic encounter with Jesus three years ago and I privately followed Him for about a year or two because I didn’t trust church people. I found a church in my hometown (not LSM) that I was comfortable in but I was always at arms length because of my trust issues with churches and organized religion. I had a very special relationship with Jesus that I didn’t want tainted by religion. Then I moved to San Diego to attend university and after searching for community, I came across the LSM campus group and the biggest thing I felt from them was total freedom and total love. Anytime I said no to an event or Bible study the love was the same as when I said yes. It took a while before I settled into any kind of routine with them and I’ve really enjoyed this community more than the traditional church style. I’m not at all trying to say what you experienced isn’t real and it sounds like it really disturbed your peace which breaks my heart. I’m sorry sister. I just worry that the way you gave your testimony is absolutist and not reflective of the heart of this body of believers, and it could lead lost sheep astray. I am grateful to God every day that I wandered into this flock and I hope others find the treasure I found here. But ultimately God is the Shepherd and He will lead others where they are meant to be; that’s how the saints in my locality feel, that’s why they don’t care whether someone comes to the Lord’s table or a home meeting, they just want people built up in Christ.

@@la_palomita I know you may think I’m the only one who’s experienced this.. but you may want to read the hundreds of comments on these videos of people that agree with what I’m saying. That speaks volumes.

@@Love_Cruelty your comment is really ignorant and assumptive; you have no idea how familiar I am with the satanic or the false religiosity of doctrine. I have tasted and seen what is of God and what is not, and as a sister or brother in Christ your words should be for the building up of those who hear them. Your condescension is ungodly and I pray you turn to the Lord for purification. All saints are sinners, you should know that well. We are always in a constant battle between putting forth God or putting forth Satan. Don’t think that just because you gave your life to Christ it doesn’t mean you can’t be used by Satan. He came to kill, steal and destroy; Christ came to have life and have it more abundantly. Your words reek of death. God bless you and keep you, and I mean that.

Really? You've met sinners like, Joseph's brothers, or Job's friends, or Laban, Jacob's father-in-law, or Saul, King David's predecessor, or Amnon, Tamar's brother, or in Queen Esther's situation, or Lot, struggling at the border of Sodom, etc.?

@@Love_Cruelty I would say it is certainly a reflection of the church culture in The Lord’s Recovery. Anything that tarnishes their perfect image of Witness Lee and his teachings puts many of them on edge.

I think someone responded to this comment but the comments are gone now, which is a shame because, after decades of trying to undo road-to-hell false religious teachings from so many directions, all straight from the pit, bring it on I say... OMG, where do I begin... Probably best I don't waste my time.

@@gwenlewis4443It often feels like I’m wasting mine when talking to some of these people. Even when I show them the scriptures, they’ll just say I’m “dead right” while they’re “livingly wrong” or some such nonsense.

@@Peanut9527 Oh Lord... I guess you just have to shake the dust off, having said your piece. It's not your environment.

Yeah that's the point. Who says you gotta pick sides in religious bias/ingroup favoritism? Is that even godly?😅... At least you can be reasonable & acknowledge others' experiences, the invalidation of which only adds to 2ndary victimization, an extension of misogyny. Didn't God adjure ppl to have compassion & grace & foster victim empowerment? The church culture of no show of vulnerability stinks as it hinders chances of deepening relationships of LOVE & trust, or vice versa. Ppl try so hard to transform /overcome on their own religious terms, even at the expense of genuineness & mental health, risking sins of duplicity, suppressing jealousy & spite, but what does GOD want you to overcome? It can be a surprise due to one's scotoma, or concepts such as God doesn't love you that much to care about your hrt but just ur performance, like an employer, so that u need to hide ur dark blots from Him, so that He wouldn't know but reward ur 'contributions of wood, hay & stubble'🤣...And yes God makes His home in ur hrt in myriad ways, including unorthodox ways, isn't that how Jesus was after all?

Do you remember what the college group was named?

@@Love_CrueltySure sounds like it. Bro just told this woman she has a demon.

@@Love_Cruelty One never knows for sure with such things, especially on the internet. What we can be sure of is that this “HappyAurora” is saying that Ritz is following demons.

After I left, one of the brothers who I still meet with since he’s one of my best friends told me that the elders there portrayed me as a black sheep who was always “contentious.”

@@Peanut9527 good for you for challenging them. They hate that. 😅😅 it just means you have the life, the spirit and it’s the very thing that saved you.

Omg😭I thought I was crazy for needing therapy bc of the local churches

@@pink_flamingoo7634 it messed me up pretty badly. I've realized I really need to relearn how to read some passages of the bible.

was told that my sexual abuser will still go to heaven bc she is still a believer and still attends meetings, meanwhile ill be cast in the lake of fire for 1000 years bc i quit the church haha

i was a church kid as well btw. i remember we were told to study hard to have successful professions mentioning being a doctor, an engineer, and stuff so people not in the church would be encouraged to join the denomination yknow seeing how accomplished we are

@@gokeybooriSounds like you’ve been through a terrible ordeal.

Well said 🙌🏻

Well.. the fact that these are fear based speaks volumes as to whether or not that environment is right for you. Fear shouldn’t be the factor for keeping us in any type of situation. Just food for thought.

@@ritzsticks12 is there a way of leaving without making too much fuss? I didn’t grow up in this church. I got baptized in 2022. I just wish i knew how to show them christs love even while leaving. I believe in God, I agree with the Bible. But I don’t like the lc, lsm, etc. they were also very kind to me I just don’t want to make anyone mad I guess? But I’m at a point where they’re very insisting on me coming back. I’ve slowly stopped going to their meetings but I don’t know how to cut the cord completely. I’ve been very anxious and low in confidence ever since joining. Any advice?

There has not been one instance where I don’t have to pray to God to give me strength and courage to step into their spaces. I joined bc my then ex asked me to go to one meeting and I haven’t stopped going since. He was asked to leave me bc I was worldly. So I started going and eventually found God. But I just meet my now boyfriend (who’s Catholic) and they were very clear about their disapproval. There’s a lot of reasons why I shouldn’t go anymore but I don’t know how to.

Me too. The church in my area has genuine believers of the Lord Jesus and the Bible. They are very normal Christians - Bible focused and have never mentioned the overcomer ideology. They have only loved me and my family and opened their home so my parents and brother could get baptized. I’m shocked to hear these types of experiences.

Part of the world system right now is to raise up kids who cannot deal with facts, and have to have their emotions artificially supported. Rather than dealing with the self & soul-life, flesh. Rather than experiencing Christ as our Rock & “hiding place.”