Hey and thanks for the constructive feedback. Naturally, the unit that we've been developing is not comparable with industrial indoor farming. The idea was to compare indoor farming to conventional agriculture in general. The system that we've developed is more aimed towards hospitality businesses like restaurants and hotels who want to grow certain high-value crops inside their own premises as part of their overall food experience. So not lettuce even with that device 😅. Regardless, this was not communicated clearly so I appreciate the feedback!

Hey and thanks for the comment. We've been incredibly critical of many large vertical farming startups in our previous videos (e.g. here kzfaq.info/get/bejne/e7SHiZR7stfPg2Q.html and here kzfaq.info/get/bejne/lamJh7xn1p-7k6M.html). Some of the first-movers in this industry made some just astounding mistakes that drove them into bankruptcy. Whats worse, the hype that they generated was just unbearable and it has tarnished most of the industry. There is definitely potential for vertical farming as a technology. There are plenty of "second-wave" firms that have proven that vertical farming can be done profitably. However, the stigma is still there. We have plenty of videos coming in the next weeks criticizing the industry and some of the large mistakes that the early movers did, and which some are still making. I hope this clarifies our position 👍.

Hey and thanks for the comment. Just wanted to pitch in here as well. First, we've been incredibly critical of many large vertical farming startups in our previous videos (e.g. here kzfaq.info/get/bejne/e7SHiZR7stfPg2Q.html and here kzfaq.info/get/bejne/lamJh7xn1p-7k6M.html). Some of the first-movers in this industry made some just astounding mistakes that drove them into bankruptcy. Whats worse, the hype that they generated was just unbearable and it has tarnished most of the industry. To your points: 1. Free sun: sure, using LEDs instead of the sun is the biggest stumbling block for indoor farming. However, sunlight is not constant or even and its pretty hard to optimise sunlight. Additionally, the main benefit that indoor farming has is simply taking more control of the environmental controls. For example, here in Finland, we've had two really dry summers in a row, ruining most of the strawberry and staple crop harvests. On the other hand, a few years ago we had first a dry season followed up by a record amount of rain. This also ruined a ton of harvests. Taking farming indoors removes this variability. 2. Soil is not self-regenerating nor is it self-feeding as a substrate. Its actually the other way around. Industrial farms around the globe are more and more dependent on industrial fertilizers due to soil degradation. This is a direct effect from industrial monoculture farming which does not allow the soil to regenerate between harvests and seasons. Conventional agriculture is in the losing position here because a ton of the fertilizer is wasted in the process and it also causes product safety issues. Moving farming indoors removes these problems. 3. Sure, rain is "free" but preparing for dry seasons is not. Its actually causing a lot of issues because of the unreliability. Industrial farms have long been reliant on man made irrigation systems which waste a huge amount of the water used (a lot of the water is lost to soil and to evaporation). I 100 % understand where you are coming from in this. To be quite frank, we are also quite pissed because of the way that some of the first-movers in the industry greenwashed the technology. It will (most likely) never replace conventional agriculture - especially when it comes to staple crops but indoor vertical farming does have its applications even in the western countries. There are some really promising "second-wave" startups who have done their homework and learned from the big failures. However, these firms are struggling with the stigma left by some of the big failures - which I totally understand. The general public should be more sceptical. This is why we are also trying to communicate about the benefits and issues more transparently --> exactly so that we could have a more transparent discussion e.g. in the KZfaq comments 😅. I hope this clarifies my position a bit more. Again, I appreciate the comment and the healthy critisism!

I would agree, and we've made multiple videos on the topic: Why are VF startups going bankrupt: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/e7SHiZR7stfPg2Q.html Why are VF bankruptcies a good thing: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/lamJh7xn1p-7k6M.html Even with the huge bankruptcies, the technology does work. It was just implemented in a really bad way - often due to business decisions. There are plenty of great "second-wave" VF startups who are doing great and have shown that vertical farming can be done profitably.

Oh I think you have a wonderful point here! I think this will definitely be the way to go - if not with DIY systems then with cheap and easy-to-use consumer units that can be expanded at will to your particular house/basement size. This is kinda where we are heading as well. We are developing more of a standardised appliance for indoor farming, but I think your approach will be the dominant one.

It would be interesting to know why you think this way? No offence meant, just being curious 🙂. The whole premise of controlled indoor farming is that it allows the farmer to deliver more nutrients to the plants with more optimal nutritional values that outdoor farming can ever do. So its a really fascinating contradiction that id like to understand.

Do an RNAseq to see if you can find noticeable differences in transcription between the plants growing in different mediums. Then you would know for sure and can stop making guesses.

Hey and thanks for the great question! As of now, the simple answer is no. In fact, a lot of companies in this industry have been greenwashing the technology, which really does harm to the entire market. Generally speaking, the carbon emissions from indoor vertical farms come from a few operational sources: lights and environmental controls. These will obviously be larger than those of conventional farming due to its ability to use sunlight. Another category of large carbon emissions is the embodied carbon in all the steel and hardware that goes into building indoor farms. These are, however, much harder to calculate. The main issue is that most indoor farming companies do not have 3rd party verified carbon emission calculations and/or they do not share those numbers publicly. Having said this, there are some positive indicators that point to the idea that indoor vertical farms could (theoretically) be competitive in carbon emissions when compared to e.g. greenhouses. We have a dedicated video about this topic here: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/gL95mNeCz7i2loU.html

@@ArcticFarming Thanks I appreciate the transparency. I have worked on a rooftop farm myself and was doubtful that indoor farming could be less energy intensive, although I do find it plausible that maybe for produce that needs big transportation infrastructure the *overall* co2 emissions could be lower. I'm not just thinking of the emissions of the freight but also of the refrigerants that after use are often not properly disposed of, contributing a lot to greenhouse gas emissions.

I think you have an interesting point on the overall emissions regarding logistics. Its quite easy to calculate approximated emissions from freight and last-mile delivery, but its near to impossible for most firms to take into account the embedded emissions that come from refrigeration and all kinds of other "hidden side emissions" that should also be taken into account. We have a really great interview coming up in a couple of weeks with one of the leading experts in controlled environment agriculture (on this channel) who talks quite a bit about the issues with the way that indoor farming startups are talking about sustainability. While there are definitely some goods aspects to this tech, the industry needs more transparency and open discussion about the realities of the technology.

Co2 is plantfood, 0.04% of our atmosphere is Co2, and at 0.02% ALL LIFE DIES...

Fair point! I did read an interview with the founder of Oishii who said that they've been able to bring the cost down with scale. This is naturally awesome and this is why their strategy has been so interesting. Take a new product to luxury markets first, while actively working to make the product more accessible to the masses. Still, its hard to imagine that this kind of a "Tesla model" has been utilized with strawberries 😅.

The $50 price point was when they had the one facility in Brooklyn and before the Whole Foods deal. They recently released an Oishii tomato. I have not tried it yet but I will soon. I think these products have a sustainable market stateside. The quality justifies the price. And the price is not at obscene levels it needs a different cultural support (like in Japan).

Actually, they are indeed using bees. Wasnt able to find too much information about this though. I did find a mention that its one of their secrets, how the bee pollination has been achieved properly inside.

Same thing usually happens to all new technologies :). Think about Tesla and EVs. Or even 4K televisions. Those werent a mainstream thing in early 2010s. They were bulky and expensive with little to no content that you could stream in the max resolution. But now, you cant even buy a tv that isnt 4K. Instead, now everyone is looking to buy 8K tvs, which have the same issue as 4K 15 years ago. I think the meaningful question is - is vertical farming going to show that it has a proper place in the agricultural markets in a short enough of time, or is it going to die down over time.

I think you have an excellent point here, and this is why its rather frustrating that vertical farms do not share the energy usage/energy sourcing data publicly. Its easy to claim that "we are using renewables" but the public should know how that energy is sourced and from where. Another interesting point of view that I've heard is that sourcing renewable energy from existing power plants (whether solar or nuclear) wont make your operation more sustainable. This is because the energy that you consume is always taking away from existing grid capacity. Instead, vertical farms should try to ADD to the grid capacity by adding MORE renewable sources. This is where building new solar installations e.g. on the roof of your massive industrial building comes into play. Not saying that it will cover all of your energy needs, but at least you are adding, not taking away, from the existing renewable grid sources. As always, nothing in this is black and white and this is why I feel its important that we would have a more transparent and productive discussion about this topic.

Thanks so much for the great point! Now that you mentioned this, I remember reading about this kind of a cultural aspect for the japanese high-quality berries. Should have added this to the script. Would have brought some good cultural context to the video 😌. Having said this, what seems really fascinating about Oishii's business is that they've been able to bring the japanese berry culture into the North American markets (starting from New York). I was really baffled when I first learned this - as was everyone when they heard the original price for the berries, and I was really sceptical over their ability to get this working. But for some reason, they seem to have nailed it - at least for now. Hence, the video.

Thanks a bunch for the positive feedback! I do appreciate it. The thumbnails kinda need to serve the youtube gods sooo.. 😅. We have some really cool new content coming out (starting today) and i hope you feel the same way about them as well.

We are based in Finland.

Hey there! We are currently based in Helsinki, Finland. If you ever visit Helsinki, do let us know :)

@@ArcticFarming is there any way I can connect . LinkedIn emails please

Thank you very much, I do appreciate it! You are 100 % correct, this is definitely a luxury - there is no way around that. While this device has originally been developed for businesses like restaurants and hotels, our long-term goal is to make it cheap enough for homes. Indoor farming does definitely have its applications. The difference is, we are not claiming to save the world with this solution 🤪.

Sure thing! Here you go: www.researchgate.net/publication/331130061_Vertical_farming_a_summary_of_approaches_to_growing_skywards

Interesting points, thanks for participating in the discussion! I think that vertical farming does definitely require new out-of-the-box ideas like you mentioned here to work. At the same time, the technology should be used to grow products that not already abundantly available in the market. Otherwise these companies are just going to be price competing while pushing a product to market that is already well available. I dont think vertical farming can really ever properly compete this way.

Oh really.. can you tell more about this? Havent heard of this before.

Hi Emil and thanks so much for the feedback! Id love to know if there was something that either of us said that the other could have challenged? Dan does have a point about the carbon footprint of steel, but we do not sign any claims about sustainability without proper numbers behind them. Any and all feedback - especially constructive is more than welcome. I want to make this into a platform where we can have direct discussions where a) we listen to what our guest have to say but b) also have the courage to challenge them in case claims are made without evidence. Cheers, Oliver

@@ArcticFarming You are enriching CO2 in your greenhouse, are you ? What happens to that CO2 when you burn propane or whatever you do to get more CO2 in ?

Mmm that is an interesting question for large-scale vertical farms. Our small-scale indoor farming cabinets do not currently use added CO2 but this is in the product pipeline. We do, however, get our CO2 from local breweries that collect extra CO2 from the brewing process. So its basically a sidestream from their operations.

@@ArcticFarming so breweries are dooming the climate too ? :-) Most steel in your country is made from recycled iron scraps (over 70% of all new iron in the developed world is made from recycled scrap, 30% in the developing world and that only because they still don't have enough scrap), so the 1.5 tons of carbon is fantasy. The supply issues were not caused by AGW, it was the cooling at the end of the last solar cycle (look it up, it perfectly matches the price of food), and it ended when the current solar cycle started and it got a tiny bit warmer in the northern parts where most of the exported food is produced. ... no, it was not the war in the East either. You might remember the cold summer of 2021, the one during which most countries in Europe exhausted their gas reserves because the temperature maximums were 12C in June. Yes, it was quite cold this spring too, you can find the dip in solar activity in the charts with the sunspots numbers (yes, the sunspots are not causing warming, they're a proxy for the intensity of the solar magnetic field), and the heat from the last 2 years it was the strong start of the solar cycle. I understand the temptation to try to placate the green doomsters but their only purpose is to create chaos. Your channel used to be informative but adding the climate mania does not help at all.

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Oh I would disagree - depending on the context. Vertical farming is definitely not a replacement for conventional agriculture BUT it does have its applications in the mix. A lot of the early-movers have focused too much on the technology instead of focusing on the rights crops, and efficient production methods.

@@ArcticFarming Designed by experts that, judging by the roots shown in the video, appear to have no expertise in the field of aeroponics :)

We have a ton of really exciting content lined for release starting from this week! Hope you find them interesting 👍

Often true, yes. Depends on how you set everything up. For example, here in Finland, we have a lot of unused underground spaces that need new constructive use-cases. So no, dont set up an indoor farm in a down-town office building 😅.

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Sorry to hear that @AdamBechtol, but I do appreciate the feedback. There is indeed a certain tone or way of speaking that is typical to the platform and I absolutely understand if it raises some eyebrows. Feedback received and I'll do my best to take note in the future 🙂