in fact my wife's new bike has m6100 and I am happy she is in the hyperglide + world. meantime I am slogging along with a SRAM 11speed chain. but hey, they're both waxed, running quiet and smooth. thanks for the vid Adam. hopefully SRAM gets a clue about their chain lineup. what a cluster!

Does this mean you can upgrade to a dura ace or ulteggra chain ,or are we talking new cassette too? I have a praxis works 12 compatible chain rings on the way and they claim to be OK with 10,11,12 so..

@@MrGarycoww yes cassette wise you can upgrade chains perfectly. Chain rings as long as they are 12spd SHIMANO compatible. being 12spd compatible is not same as being Shimano 12s compatible due to their extended inner link plates. Ie internally, a campy 12s is same as 11s and 10s and 9s - still just an 11/128 chain. Same with sram eagle (not road flat top - thats different). Same with KMC, and ybn etc - they are all just 11/128 internal width standard chains, so rings can easily claim 12s compatibility. For shimano, they must specifically state they are shimano 12s compatible

ah very interesting - was the cassette used or new?

@@zerofrictioncycling992 Brand new. I just need to buy a chain wear tool to keep a close eye on the progress. I have done long rides. Also, have participated in several springs putting a lot of power. Still working fine.

@@zerofrictioncycling992 quick update: I bought the Pedros chain checker II and measured the chain. Still in good condition. So far I have ridden 1,235 miles as per my Strava record. If you are interested, I can send you pics to your email so you can use them for further review.

@@joselarrarte6964 Hey jose, what chain and what riding do you do? unless thats hard mtb kms thats not a big number of kms for a wax chain yet, should be a lot more life before a genuine 0.5. Not too familiar with the pedros checker yet!

yep. part of why i havent stocked t-type yet is cost - i think i will have to create another little offset account to start saving some zfc $$ each week towards buying some T-Type chain stock.... w/sale price is only around 30% lower than rrp, so it is ouch for everyone. I dont know why they cost like double say a sram red flat top chain - the pricing of T-Type chains is really a concern. But.... the high cost of components has driven ever more cyclists to look for a better lubricant, so thats been positive for ZFC......however oh how i feel for anyone running a known terrible lubricant on their new T-Type transmission. Be like $1 per pedal stroke running cost!!!

Yep, all Shimano 12 speed chains, inc M6100/M7100 have the extended inner links. Also the side without the writing has 2 chamfered corners whereas the 10/11 speed chains do not. My experience of Deore 12 speed groupset on 2 bikes is that it's super smooth and now thanks to Adam, I'm using Silca Super Secret and it's even better, soon will be moving to immersive waxing. I only ride tow paths here in England but a waxed chain feels so much better when pedalling. Shimano blurb, Hyperglide allows smoother/underload shifting into bigger cogs & Hyperglide+ (only available Shimano 12 speed) adds smoother and shifting under load moving into the smaller cogs. SIL-TEC: an advanced plating process that bonds fluorine particles to the metal to create a long lasting, ultra low friction surface. It also helps reduce noise considerably. Chromizing: Chromium is diffused into the metal to make it harder, so it’ll last longer. Deore CN-M6100 Chain Chromizing roller link pin, 252g SLX CN-M7100 Chain SIL-TEC roller link plate Chromizing roller link pin, 252g XT CN-M8100 Chain No SIL-TEC Chromizing roller link plates and pins 252g XTR CN-M9100 Chain SIL-TEC pin link plates and roller Chromizing roller link plates and pins Upgrades to hollow pins (saves 10g) 242g Adam thanks for the all the great work you do.

Apparently HG+ chain control is very hard and expensive to do with adjacent cogs that have just one tooth count difference. That's why 105 doesn't have it but lower end MTB cassettes do

@@n0ch91c3s but the 105 cassette looks exactly like the Ultegra one and has the "upshift ramps" that hyperglide+ cassettes have and for example 11 speed cassettes lack

oh heavens to betsy - you know i swear i checked this awhile ago - but i just double checked shimano website now and you are correct! I will pin a correction comment at top of video, thanks for flagging!

Thanks! Mineral turpentine is (in australia- things can have different names or same name be a different product in other countries) a strong solvent on grease and oils so it is powerful re dissolving factory grease, it is cheaper than most other solvents that may compete at around $5 a litre, mineral turpentine actually has very low environmental toxicity, and is easily re cycled. It leaves little film behind for following alcohol rounds. It does not cause hydrogen embrittlement like some solvents or degreasers. Wax and grease remover is VERY expensive - last i saw i think it was about $14 a litre - and since mineral turpentine works perfectly, there is just no reason to spend circa 3x the price to do the same job. No silca's product deliberately does not work on waxes at all - so it is definitely not a version of wax and grease remover

@@zerofrictioncycling992 I think hydrogen embrittlement fears are greatly exagerated (for our scenario) until there is any solid scientific evidence behind it. Yes, Wax and Grease may be x3 times more expensive than turps, but it is a false economy because 1x bath of it is more effective than 3x baths of turps. Further, if economy is main priority one can use White Spirit which is very similar chemical to Wax and Grease but is a lot cheaper. As for the final film removal - I have no objection to denaturated ethanol although I prefer isopropyl - it dries cleaner. PS I do not want to say that turps is bad. I just think that wax and grease (or white spirit) is better and thus can not understand your choice. W&G has lower toxicity and can be recycled just as well. Chemical pricing can be relevant if you run a business, but for us DIY garage mechanics it is irrelevant as you only need one litre for a lifetime. Unless you use Silca which is many, many times more expensive.

@@Hard_Work_Is_Rewarding yep for sure you could be correct there if W&G only requires one bath - i havent tested (there are so many solvents) - so i am really not sure. And correct re embrittlement if used as per instructions, but some do leave for overnight soaks, or even for days - which could be an issue. As yes ISO is perfect but again, generally a lot more expensive than humble metho

It's because it's simple and if you don't care about the environmental impact and cost, they work well. There's a reason microemulsions like Silca's and CeramicSpeed's cleaners and powerful hybrid detergents are increasily being used everywhere in the industry: solvent based cleaners are just environmental bombs.

@@neutronpcxt372 Unsure what you mean. Turpentine works better than wax and grease if you don't care about environment and cost? I don't understand this.

So I could run My shimano 12s chain on my sram eagle x sync 2 chainring?

correct - T-Type system is designed and marketed as being able to shift under full load. So putting a non T-Type chain on T-type and shifting under load may result in a failure. So it was really the sram guy was super strong on that not being cross compatible. he was also super strong re not T-Type on normal flat top due to small extra width of the T-Type chains ,but honestly i had to disagree there, the external width difference is tiny, i cannot see any issues running T-Type on road flat except for issues for your wallet in purchasing a T-Type chain. We have had enquiries and customers confused since this vid re sram eagle and T-type eagle, as they are NOT compatible at all, and so putting Eagle in both is just ..... wtf sram. It would be having T-Type ultegra and not T-Type ultegra and they are so not compatible but dont mix them up. I dont understand how that was signed off.

It was just a basically 0% wear measure result on that one. Some of the middle intervals had extremely low wear

ah that is very interesting, thanks for reporting. Field is often a bit of mix, ie many reports of people running eagle xx1 / x01 for their exceptional wear life on shimano cassette / groupset - and all super - but the odd one can be like yours which can be a little bit of mystery! the shimano cassette teeth have some extra profiling for those extended inner link plates, so in theory, they should fit easily into sram chain that is same standard and without those extra bits. If you get a chance send that vid to info@zerofrictioncycling.com.au - i dont think i can help solve from afar but would interested to see for my own knowledge :)

@@zerofrictioncycling992 sure will send it soon

@@zerofrictioncycling992 just sent

I dont expect the sram FG will impact per se except possibly less chains able to be effectivly cleaned (ie with solvents they take more solvent volume) - but initial 2 or 3 should be fine if for shimano they can do 5 or 6 - we shall see how many shimano they do. But i am very confident it was the chains as right from brand new there was up to 30% wear measure variance between different sections of the same chain, which is nuts - i have never seen new chains so far out from one section to another - making tracking wear for a control test a bit fraught re accuracy, and so just could not depend on those initial wear results for the first round of testing on those chains. the plan was the budget sram chains would be perfect for the test as a) putting strippers to the test with srams FG, and b) as that level chain has no wear protection treatments, an differences in the wax coating performance post clean would show up more obviously. I did not expect the chains to be check measure all over the place out of the box - they are basically junk. I dont know how they are making that model chain, but it must be the most cheap arse production out there. Get what we pay for i guess.... Still -it was a bummer for plan A to fail due to junk mfg tolerances!

Great questions! Firstly Ekar is VERY thin internally, at only 1.7mm, vs circa 2.1mm to 2.2mm that is normal for 11/128 standard. The chain just literally does not fit over teeth for 12spd systems, only EKAR. Correct the initial ybn sla 12's had very poor lifespan - similar to kmc 12. This was rectified a long time ago though initially with rainbow colour but now it has been sorted across all colours for years so would only be a concern if somewhere had very old stock. I have heard that too, but have not had it confirmed. However, the 11spd ybn sla and the campagolo record chains had near identical wear life and efficiency performance. And same with 12spd. So it is possible. But would be different runs, and also can be to specific requested specifications - so their can still be differences even if they do mfg. really not a lot of information on the wrl chain. At a surface look from what i can glean on the website - i cant get much. There is a bit of marketing fluff there, but why they would need a different chain for wireless is currently a bit of a mystery. I think that it would be a very brave person to take a bet that they could tell a difference in shifting or anything with a WRL chain vs existing super record 12spd. Mostly it will be a pain for retailers to have to stock yet another SKU - so i hope i am wrong and there are some specific differences justifiying a new chain - but at the moment, i am doubtful. ...

Same price as long as you don't choose the PVD version, then it's a little bit more

Correct - the oversize rollers on the flat top chain just wont fit well at all into the teeth of cog / ring / pulleys

Thanks Jose! Mostly - the main issue will be shimano 12s chain as those special extended inner link plates, and the teeth on the chain rings will not be machined for those. In straighter chain line angles probably wont notice, but those extensions may rub on sides of teeth on higher chain line angles which may or may not cause issues. Changing to the 12s chainring would not be cheap either unfortunately, it would be better to get with the crank as likely not much more expensive. You can certainly try - it may be perfectly fine, but if it isnt, that will be why.

yep same as for all shimano 12s, the extended inner link plates as part of hyperglide+ can cause some fun. You will need a shimano 12s compatible chainring for a start, as well as pulleys - or they just wont run well at all with those extensions not allowing chain to slide down teeth. So i wouldnt go that path, there is no point to spending $$ changing those components to run a shimano 12s chain on eagle. Your best chain will be sram eagle x01 as just amazing longevity with srams hardchrome treatment on x01 /xx1 level.

Friction yes - it is really really fast - as in right up there with the fastest chains tested by ceramic speed denmark lab. Wear testing - it is on my very big to do list, but i have no idea when i will be able to get to that. At a guess however, i would say it will be a fair bit less wear life vs srams top tiers of flat top chains as srams hardchrome treatment is extremely wear resistant. So the mk12 for many will be more of a race day chain vs training chain, and if using for training, keep regular checking of wear rate.

not yet - now that there is an importer in aus for wippermann they may have more interest here and so more call to focus some more testing on them. Not sure how big they are outside of germany / some parts of europe but to date we havent had a lot of info requests about them, but i think from what i know they seem a solid brand / chain overall. I have a bit of backlog to try to get to re wear testing chains and that will be one of them....

My pleasure. Flat top chain has oversize rollers. It will not run on shimano chain rings where the teeth are profiled for normal size rollers. Same re shimano pulley wheels. Why would you look to put a sram chain and cassette on your shimano drivetrain vs a shimano chain and cassette? what advantage are you looking for doing that and how do you believe that change is going to deliver it? Just curious re what drives some mix and match thinking like this so i can understand more! :)

woohoo!!! i think thats excuse to buy myself a present to celebrate hahahahaha

​@@zerofrictioncycling992or you invite us all together and we make a nice room tour. ❤

the ybn sla 12 is one of the fastest chains, tested at basically 3w, shimano 12s around 5w (at 250w load) - so notable in the chain savings space

I dont believe so, most solvents dont really work on wax, and should evaporate out easily as should be lighter and sit on top of the wax for easy evap

i think you should be fine in the end - early days info was that the widths of axs road 12spd cassettes was more narrow cog spacing than shimano, however i have seen a number of vids of people testing sram axs road 12spd on shimano 12s cassette and all has been sweet - so unless you have issues present - it looks like you should actually be fine!

Thats possible - i have had that thought meself but there is just no field / anecdotal on that. Thats more of a macguyver hack. I think most when cassette / rings worn buy new cassette & rings and new chain all of correct stuff for their system, vs thinking to get a different standard chain that may now fit worn parts better - so i dont expect we will get much direct information back on the above - but, in theory - that may work. Pulleys would need to be worn down a bit too.

Thanks so much! but also HA! I really did lose you there. No, definitely no :). Srams flat top you really want to run on cassette and rings made of that standard which has oversize rollers, they will not run on cassettes and rings made for normal 11/128 standard with "normal" diameter rollers - that applies for shimano / campy 12spd and shimano campy & sram 11spd.

Yes that should be all groovy - i swapped sram rings to shimano 12spd rings on 2 mtb a long time ago to try shimano on sram. I havent bothered changing them back since now running sram xx1 training and ybn for racing - no wear noticeable / measurable on ring, nor chain drops etc. It should also be perfectly fine on shimano cassette, the only difference is the teeth profiled for hg+, but they don't seem to notice if the chain isnt HG+ aside from the comparative drop in shift performance compared to that new benchmark.

Thank you very much for the response! Your channel is a gem!

apologies i am unsure on that - it certainly didnt run on x-sync - the new profiled x-sync 2 looks like it might have more of a shot, but again its a sram rim, the teeth are not profiled for shimano 12s chains extended inner link plates. Unless the chain ring specifically states it is shimano 12s compatible you are literally going to be trialing and hoping. (note many also need shimano 12s compat pulleys)

@zerofrictioncycling992 no problem buddy thanks for the reply, someone not long mentioned using a kmc chain as there chain is compatible with shimano and sram, do you think that chain would work with my sram chainring and shimano derailleur and cassette?

@@The1984Gman yep you are overall running basically an 11/128 chain system so any 11/128 chain without other stuff like extended link plates etc will be compatible. KMC is one, however my experience and control testing of the x12 showed them to have very poor wear life. For training i would run sram x01 eagle due to its extreme wear durability (or xx1 if want some colour and $$ are not too much of an issue). They are the worlds best training chain for 11/128 systems as they just really do have unreal wear lifespan. Probably about 20 kmc x12's worth! For races the ybn sla 12 is a blistering fast chain. Normal wear life, basically the same wear life as shimano DA 11spd chain, but multiple watts faster than sram eagle chain. I train on xx1, race on ybn for my mtb's. However if i was on full shimano 12s i would just run the shimano 12s chains as their wear life is now impressive vs their 11s chains (but a bit slower), and you get hyperglide+ shifting, so if you have already the 12s cassette and mech (and thus compatible pulleys) - personally i would consider swapping out the chain ring - wolf tooth will do a shimano 12s compatible ring with sram DM fitment, then you are all fully compat and can enjoy hyperglide plus shifting with a chain that is fast enough, very durable, and e-bike rated strength.

sorry that table isnt up yet - i only just whipped it up for the vid - i will be doing a 12spd compatibility document sn and it will be on that (will put that in instructions tab)

Ah yep sorry i will try remember to add that to the table for the 12s compat doc i will soon have on website - they will be same as ybn sla 12s. They are also very fast, but wear life of kmc 12 has been a big concern, also their low friction coating seems to cause some fun with a lot of lubricants being able to bond. KMC chains can feel / sound very dry very quickly with waxes vs most other chains.

ha yes - well it almost was for a while, the 11/128 standard covered us through 9spd days, then 10spd days, then 11spd days, and the first couple years of 12spd for eagle and campy - so as far as cycling industry goes re standards - that was a pretty good run. It had to come to an end :)

Sorry i have no idea what you comment means. Does L'Eroica make 12spd groupsets or chains?

@@zerofrictioncycling992 They suffer from Programmed Obsolescence.

Mostly yes, but there are some potential issues. the 11spd cogs and rings will not have the tooth profiles for the special extended inner link plates of the 12s chains. On straighter chain line angles this does not really come into play, but it can on higher chain line angles. These extensions MAY rub on sides of the ring / cog teeth on higher chain line angles such that this rubbing can be felt / heard (which would mean wear and friction). Many have / do run shimano 12s on 11s and report all is fantastic, but anecdotal is always to be taken with some caution as ones set up can vary from another. oh also they may not run correctly on 11s pulleys, they usually require 12s shimano compatible pulleys to run smoothly.