As a Frenchie who learnt to cook to sleep with pretty girls, "bain Marie" is what I've been using to wax my chains for years: a pot of water you bring to a boil, and a basic metal bowl over it with a flat bottom for the wax. The wax gets melted by the steam, and your wax doesn't go over 95C. It's probably 90-95C. The metal bowl is obviously dedicated to the wax, and costs 5 bucks. It does mean you're using the kitchen, but it's a clean process, and packs down to just a bowl with hard wax in it. For people who live in apartments / don't have a garage, not having to store and whip out a dedicated rice cooker is rather useful. Bain Marie is also how you should melt chocolate.
@Skaughtto5 ай бұрын
"Silca Steals" had this for 9.95$US so I bought some for use on my indoor trainer bike. I'm feeling like I made a good choice 👍 Thank you for sharing your work 🙇
@konstpetrov5 ай бұрын
I've gone with StripChip and temperature controlled cooking pot I bought for 50€. It is not too big at 4L, has timer, and can work in a range between 45 and 170°C. For the first run I've controlled the temperature with additional food thermometer. Everything worked nicely. The main point for me in using StripChip is absence of smell. I've done this chain indoors, at home, and no one noticed any smell. I'd say if Silca pot wasn't on backorder I'd buy it. But it was and I wanted my new chain waxed.
@dawn_rider5 ай бұрын
Synerg-E is probably perfect for Velomobiles. The body shell protects the drivetrain . Also in the case of kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pZeSiJiErrzVZp8.html he needs 3 chain lengths joined. Installation, removal and immersive waxing is inconvenient !
@SnaxNoCo5 ай бұрын
I use wax lube on all of my outdoor bikes, but the waxy "snow" is a too messy indoors. So, I started using Synerg-E on my indoor trainers a few months ago, and I've been really impressed with the results. I figured that using the ultrasonic cleaner to scour the chain beforehand would probably be overkill, but I did it anyway because I had the time. Based on the results of your testing, it looks like I made the right decision. Thanks for the confirmation--the next time I need to set up a trainer, I'll know that I'm not wasting my time. Cleaner is always better! It is worthing noting that Synerg-E isn't entirely spatter-free, especially compared to my previous indoor lube (T9, which turns out not to be such a great lube), but after a few wipes it does settle down nicely. Thanks to your testing, it's reassuring that I don't need to reapply very often, thereby further reducing spatter. Once again, thanks to Silca and ZFC for helping keep my bikes clean, fast, and cheap!
@heathenmedusa5 ай бұрын
Now here's an alarming story for you Adam and a warning for everybody else. Took delivery of a very expensive ebike last autumn did absolutely nothing to the chain apart from lubricate it with whatever I had at hand...3 different lubes if I remember right as was completely ignorant of advances over the last 50 years. Then off to the hills for fun...and man is it fun. However the result was that I wore out my chain in 500 miles! What was really alarming was the wear in the last 100 miles was excessive but caught it just in time to prevent damage to the cassette and chain wheel. Now having found ZFC I am glad to say I am much better informed and am running on Silica Hot Melt. So much cleaner and once you get set up it really is no bother at all. Thank you for all your hard work and helping us all sort through a very confusing market place.
@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat65895 ай бұрын
" . . . prevent damage to cassette and chainring"? sorry, but if you shagged your chain that quickly, then the rest of your DT will be toast as well. You can use Wippermann's chainring tooth wear gauge or something similar to check it, and I'd be saving your pennies for a new ($$$$ no doubt) cassette.
@heathenmedusa5 ай бұрын
OK thank you I will check that out. The new chain is working fine at the moment but I will keep a close eye on it.
@neutronpcxt3725 ай бұрын
Man, I did great getting the Synerg-E then and recommend it to everyone in the ebike space. I knew it was a great lube overall :) It's clear that its higher viscosity and tackiness are collecting more grit than normal Synergetic however. I also can't hear audio, although yt-dlp shows there being multiple audio streams.
@vickglanzmann9 күн бұрын
Hi Adam! Thank you for your work! What is your opinion about using synerg-E on a normal road bike? (not an electric one). I can find it at a much lower price than synergetic (Silca steals) and it seems to be a good option.
@rsrnsrwds5 ай бұрын
Silca Hot Melt with SS drip to top off my road and gravel bikes, but Synergetic for my touring bike so far. But, I have to admit that wax has spoiled me. I prefer clean dry chains so much more over wet lubed chains. Even after 100 dry outdoor miles of a fresh application of Synergetic then chain is oily black, messy, and has a slightly gritty feel to the lube. So, I tend to run it through the old clip on back pedal chain cleaner and reapply every 200 miles. Thinking about changing back to hot melt/ ss drip on for the touring bike now too.
@cliffjones10615 ай бұрын
When it comes to Cade my feeling is with you that it was KZfaq being strange that made it disappear. What I have seen from cade is they try to be fair and correct themselves when they realize they mess up. While they do have inherent bias on some things like all of us do they try to be honest about them. I would love to see you and cade together for a chat on camera at some point.
@chris1275cc5 ай бұрын
I use a "plug in thermostat" and a normal crock pot on high. It plugs into the outlet and uses a probe in the wax that turns the power off/on at the temps I set. About £15 on Amazon. Instant style pots/smart cookers turn up used on Ebay and in charity/thrift shops all the time fully working but usually dented or a bit grubby looking.
@Phantom03095 ай бұрын
i do something similar but depending on the thermal inertia of your source of heating, you can get significant over shoot. In my experience using a hot plate to heat ~500ml of water and temp target set to 75degC, i saw upto ~90degC by the time the temp levelled off.
@chris1275cc5 ай бұрын
@@Phantom0309 The thing I use has a probe that sits in the hot wax so it's being measured directly I checked it with a few other thermometers and its within a few deg'. Also I should have explained better. The pot plugs into the thermostat and the the thermostat controls the mains. Once it hits an upper set temp it cuts the power to the pot, when the temp drops to a lower set temp it turns back on effectively holding the the temp.
@Phantom03095 ай бұрын
@@chris1275cc I have a thermocouple in the pot also, but the heating element has a heavy slab of metal as the pan support so holds a lot of heat. Sounds like your solution is much better
@zerofrictioncycling9925 ай бұрын
@@Phantom0309 yes was worried about same thing
@tobias39195 ай бұрын
About slow chain snap: I had one where only one side of the chain link broke and I did continue at least 10 km after noteticing. I am a bit hassy on the details because it was 25 years ago. Trekking bike with IGH. I was not able to replace chain myself at the time so proably additional mileage before LBS. Also pretty sure that was the chain that by accident sawed through a bolt that was to long :) I guess chain snaping on one side first is more common we just dont notice in time if using IGH. My total for snaps is two. P.s. This longlivety of the neo is very intresting. You could add smart trainer longlivety on your testing pile ;)
@zerofrictioncycling9925 ай бұрын
Ha yes that is quite interesting, i can see it is correct that chains may snap slowly in some circumstances, if one is very lucky! And yeah.... will be very interesting how the other neo 2 goes. I could have just an unlucky situation with the one that just went, but my fear is gamin have cheapened a bunch of stuff from neo one when tacx was owned by tacx and not garmin. Possibly garmin thought why are we building these things to last well over 100,000km, people never do that much on an ergo before upgrading ergo - so its waste of money to build for that lifespan. Most people also wont do 50,000km before replacing / just not using either, so it might be just me that encounters and issue. If i have to replace neo 2's every circa 50,000km that will hurt.....
@tobias39194 ай бұрын
@@zerofrictioncycling992 i can definetly see people reaching 50.000 km on an ergo my kicker snap is at 28.000 now with about 7000 per year. And i am pretty sure i will not replace it until something breaks. More mileage = less total runnig cost ;)
@feedbackzaloop5 ай бұрын
Funny enough, I did have a gradual chain fail. Or rather it broke suddenly but showed signs of degradation several weeks prior. Needless to say it was a rusty commuter so the links were rather eaten away at flanges than pins.
@EditioCastigata5 ай бұрын
Keep in mind, KZfaq’s database for comments is eventually consistent. It’s very possible that, for example, two people who claim to be the first don’t see each the other’s comment for minutes, even hours. Same for old comments, which very rarely but disappear for days and eventually get sorted into the existing set.
@jackst40345 ай бұрын
Hey Adam, love your vids! Just a friendly heads-up - have you ever considered mentioning your partnership with SILCA? It might help keep things transparent and avoid any credibility questions from popping up. Just a friendly suggestion.
@zerofrictioncycling9925 ай бұрын
Thanks! I dont have a partnership with silca. They have had a number of their products tested, but that is not unique to silca, and silca also have mentioned ZFC testing numerous times since a number of their products tested have performed extremely well, and so any mfg will want to reference to independent testing showing they have excelled. You will see other mfg doing similar - Such as Rex, Effetto, mspeedwax etc - it is normal that mfg who do well in independent testing to refer to that testing as part of their marketing. ZFC doesnt have partnerships with any companies, but we test for many, and if tests go well, ZFC reports that, and the company will report that and reference ZFC. Hope that helps!
@jackst40345 ай бұрын
Thanks for the reply!@@zerofrictioncycling992
@raceace5 ай бұрын
After 32 years, Im throwing out my Finish line wet and using paraffin till I can get some decent hot wax.
@SnaxNoCo5 ай бұрын
Like many people, I was a fan of Finish Line. Argh, to think of how many drivetrains I destroyed. Oh well, better to know later than never!
@Gieszkanne3 ай бұрын
27:30 If you dont clean between block 2 and 3 and just reapply the lube , the dirt from the outside get flushed into the chain with the application. Thats why I never apply oil in a dirty chain. If you look at Dumonde Tech Pro X-lite, there is a significant drop from block 2 to 3. Here obviously dirt did get flushet out with the application. Maybe its one of these with added solvents. Or its very fluid. But on the Chart on your homeage is no drop and totally different data. How is that? Strange that the Synergetic overtake SynergE in the wet block. So maybe Synergetic is better if you also ride in the wet.
@zerofrictioncycling9923 ай бұрын
There can be quite a difference between how one product is able to get rid of some of the contamination it gathers vs others. Ie some products there is a very small application amount, which can limit what amount of flush cleaning can take place. Others it can be a fairly high application amount where the lubricant is drizzled on as back pedal vs one small drop per roller. From memory the Dumonde Tech was the latter. Not sure what you mean re "But on the Chart on your homeage is no drop and totally different data. How is that?" - if you can clarify that question and which lubricant i should be able to help on that one. And yes synergetic for sure if riding wet, something going on with Synerg-E in the wet block 4 and the wet S.A.L test. It wont be a problem if you just occasionally get caught in wet rides, and especially if the wet ride is not too long so that it wont exceed its treatment lifespan in those conditions - it would not be cause for one to worry about switching away if enjoying its great benefits in dry conditions if that is most of their riding. But if one is doing a lot of wet riding, then i would switch from E to normal synergetic.
@Gieszkanne3 ай бұрын
@@zerofrictioncycling992 When you look at your chart in this video at 27:30 Dumonde Tech has a rate of 68% in the 2 Block but in the 3. it drops to 21,7%. The chart on your homepage here says for Dumonde Tech 84,9% in the 2. block but 106,6% in the 3.
@smithpauld15015 ай бұрын
Not on topic, but have you done a review on chains? I saw you in a GCN (I think) video agreeing that better chains wear longer and save on component wear. You mentioned Dura Race and unspecified upper-level SRAM products. I found Zero Friction mentioned in a Cycling News article on a YBN chain. This is all pretty hit-or-miss and, given that you have extensive tables on all things lube, I assume you have one (them) for chains as well. Do you?
@zerofrictioncycling9925 ай бұрын
Hey Paul - yes on website you will see a page for chain efficiency testing - and we have charts for tested chains efficiency and wear life. Sometimes there is a link between outright speed and wear life, whilst some chains strike a great balance of both. I cant put a link in or YT can delete comment, but just head to ZFC website and click on chain efficiency tab
@applicablerobot2 ай бұрын
Have you evalutated mountainFLOW eco-wax? I used it blindly last summer (the shop sold it with my first new bike in a decade), but ended up switching to T9 out of convenience. But with a new chain I'd like to either go back to Mountain Flow or Silca Senergetic and am curious what you think about the eco-wax option. I suspect it's functionally equivalent to any other drip wax, but confirmation from an expert with actual data would be great
@zerofrictioncycling9922 ай бұрын
Hey there - no not yet, they are sort of maybe one day on the long list but there are quite a number of such brands / products out there like this, with varying levels of impressive claims to very vague (Mountain Flow is really vague). So it really could be anything from outstanding to terrible, it would be handy if mountain flow would provide more information on the product, their own development, testing, results from that testing vs key competitors etc - just something that helps justify why this product exists and competing in a space with 1000 other options vying against it. There is really very little to justify ZFC testing it vs other products unless this becomes requested like a lot. If you use i would track your chain wear to kms to conditions well and see what you get, and then trying something proven (ie one from the top 15 on the league table) and see how those two go for a start - real world has a lot of variability but still the best products vs meh or poor still easily beat them when people do their own proper assessing (if everyone did that then the likes of M-O and Finish line etc would be in big trouble....)
@CatManDoSocial5 ай бұрын
Thanks, Adam. Another great installment. One question, in the total cost to run tables, next to some of the drip waxes like Squirt, you have "(I.P)" next to them. What does that mean? Thanks!
@zerofrictioncycling9925 ай бұрын
Thanks Cat and i need to get a little legend present there - i think i have it noted somewhere but not easily seen on the sheet - I.P means initial penetration issues. That means that initial high wear due to initial penetration issues will have impacted the wear rates of the test and thus the cost to run. If the IP issues are negated by a) advanced application techniques outlined in the lubricant application guide, or via immersive - those wear and cost to run figures would drop. For some cyclists IP issues are not much of a concern as after the first prep - if they ride dry road - then periodic maintenance can be very infrequently needed. It really can become an issue though if one is riding frequently in harsh conditions and so really need to frequently re set contamination in the chain, in which case drip lubricants with IP issues can become a fair bit of work, or if one skips the work - they will pay for it with higher wear from the IP issues. D.A - means double application rate - some lubricants that have had a stated very short treatment lifespan - such as original UFO and also Tru-Tension Tungsten Race - they are applied twice as often during the main test vs standard protocol as they lack the treatment lifespan to last the standard test intervals, so pushing them past their stated treatment lifespan would not assess their performance at all as high wear could simply be attributed to treatment was done, and we want to assess how it performs whilst the treatment is still there. This is very rare as most lubricants can easily last the standard intervals. TT Race is a bit of a fascinating product - i actually use that a lot myself as top up lube as it is the cleanest drip lubricant on the planet, by miles i think - it is just astoundingly clean, and works amazing - for about 100km :). So its far too expensive to recommend as one only gets about 6 short lasting applications per $25 bottle, but wow is it clean and amazing for that short time per treatment!
@johnnyloco115 ай бұрын
well this is a disaster as I've been running this through the British winter 🤣. Only commuting so only 150km a month but still seems suboptimal
@Austin_Boath5 ай бұрын
Nothing personal, I like your rides on Strava but upping your FTP by literally 3-5 watts is literally more efficient than using any of your products because waxing a chain makes minimal change
@zerofrictioncycling9925 ай бұрын
Ha! thanks Austin but im really not sure on the logic of the thinking there........ > For a start for some - it sure can make a difference. You can play yourself with bike calc and what 3 to 5watts in on X climb etc. For most just training - sure - the speed difference is nothing. For an avid racer - it could be the difference between being on at the top or off, or breaking away or not. I wont type out a ton of numbers now - you can do your own if interested. > Next - if you save an easy 3 to 5watts of friction in your chain, then that is 3 to 5watts of energy every pedal stroke no longer going into wearing out your chain and drivetrain faster. Why wouldnt want someone want to do that when it is a simple as a better lubricant choice. It doesnt have to be immersive waxing, just a proven top drip lubricant vs a poor lubricant. So its just a simple win win. As the chain does simply so much mechanical work, at extremely high pressure loads due to small parts size, and it and its lubricant is completely exposed to contamination - the difference in friction and wear between the genuinely top performing products to the poor to meh to who knows... why wouldnt one simply choose to save those watts even if they never care about speed, because it will save them a lot of wear and running costs. And normally also save time re maintenance which needed much less for the top products vs those that quickly become abrasive etc. When its a comparison of say hey - why dont your run these Time trial tires - they will save you 5 watts. But the will last half as long, cost more, and are more puncture prone. So one is giving up some key other benefits to get those 5 watts they hope they will notice. With you chain lube - hey here's 5 watts. And its cleaner and less maintenance. And you lovely parts will last 2 or 3 or more times longer. So nothing personal, but i dont think you have understood what we do here and why, and why it is an easy win win for all regardless of if they care about their speed or not.
@jan-rogerolsen47435 ай бұрын
Hi, have you thought about adding single application longevity wet condition to the test? Maybe it could provide some answer to the sudden increase in wear rate you saw in block 4 and Silca's claim.
@zerofrictioncycling9925 ай бұрын
I have an extreme conditions for the S.A.L which is a good check for block 4 as well. If a lubricant is not handling water it will show up clearly in both. If it didnt show up in one vs the other that would be cause for double checking something.
@joshuabuilds30515 ай бұрын
27:20 your instant pot has preheated and is now cooking. Do not open lid.
@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat65895 ай бұрын
I've been doing immersion waxing for customers for the last few months, and I'm wondering if a 'league table' of wax-compatible 'top up' drip lubes would be something that is useful, and you could pull together. Some already use wax drip lubes, and I steer them towards UFO, Tru-Tension, Squirt and Smoove (& Silca, but only if they ask), but I wonder if other well-known wax-based drip lubes might also be ok between immersions: e.g. Boeshield T-9, Morgan Blue, Weldtite . . . etc.
@zerofrictioncycling9925 ай бұрын
yes that would be great, alas it is a bit tricky as it is a fair bit of time overall to really check how a wax drip gets along with immersive waxing - it really as to done via field testing more so that machine test as you really need to feel how its going - and field testing properly takes a bit of time, and im always field testing usually what is currently on test wax wise. And i only get so much ride time! Generally we can go a fair bit off wax base and type. If its refined paraffin base - then things will be sweet. If its a different wax base, and or if the wax lube remains quite wet - like boeshield - likely it will be not a great mix. For sure a bigger definitely compatible list will be the aim just not sure when.....
@LaurentiusTriarius5 ай бұрын
I had a brand new, cleaned, sumc black dlc 12 spd slr chain and a bottle of Maxima "chain wax" out of curiosity I emptied the bottle and soaked the chain in, agitated it about 2-3 times and left it overnight. I cleaned it (the excess) this morning with a microfiber wonder how long this will hold up...
@zerofrictioncycling9925 ай бұрын
me too. And if the maxima has a carrier designed to evap and leave a wax coating - the rest of the lube may thicken up a lot meaning it was a one bottle, one application.
@RichardsWorld5 ай бұрын
Amigo. I don't hear audio from your video.
@robertwhyte34355 ай бұрын
I'm getting the audio.
@clintmichigan91125 ай бұрын
Also had that, reloaded app a couple of times and ytube finally woke up.
@RichardsWorld5 ай бұрын
I got the audio the 3rd time trying.
@markstone7225 ай бұрын
Any reason you use Tacx Neo instead of a Wahoo kickr
@zerofrictioncycling9925 ай бұрын
A couple. Firstly - i approached wahoo importer looking to order 3 kickr + roams to control - they advised would get back to me with a price for 3 of each, i chased, and i chased, and i never got a reply from the wahoo rep after the first contact. Also, when i checked a long time ago (and not this may have changed since then as this info is now quite dated) - GP lama who is our premier tester for such things advised there was more chance of power drift over time doing what i was doing vs the neo. So due to that plus the fact i couldnt be bothered trying to force wahoo to sell me stuff, i went with tacx. The first neo when owned by tacx was amazing. The neo 2's - since garmin taken over - i fear they have been cheapened, but overall are very stable and aweseom and mostly sort of relatively low maintenance for pretty hard duty. interestingly had another good catch up with Squirt on monday, as they are using the exact same testing protocol as ZFC as part of development for their next gen lubes - they are using wahoo, and just had their first one blow up at circa 50,000km as well - so similar to what i had with one of my neo 2's. Will be interesting over time how the neo 2's and squirts Kickr's fair - if they all go circa 50k, or will any get near my original neo 1's 225k!!
@nadsim15429 күн бұрын
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Your original Neo is still working fine?
@dawn_rider5 ай бұрын
Adam , just tried to edit the post on that problem vid and YT seems to have deleted the whole thread of 6 comments ( yours , mine and a user called 'Awake -not Woke' ) . Also deleted my first attempt at this comment. I'm really sorry , especially to 'Awake -not Woke'. In future I will not have to edit after a thread has multiple comments. Never seen this happen before. I do note that the problem vid guy suggested discussions take place on his forum and not YT so this really is getting out of control.
@zerofrictioncycling9925 ай бұрын
ah no stress - cant help what YT may or may not do - but i really dont think YT have it right. Makes me wonder if i have missed some really good input and comments on some of mine that get deleted before i see them. If i get a chance sometime i will pop another comment on there, and i will save it so i can just cut and paste periodically :)
@dawn_rider5 ай бұрын
@@zerofrictioncycling992I will try to find another comment by Awake not woke and reply to it to tell them. Otherwise they will think you or I deleted it. There is no easy way to search for comments by specific users across YT so I will likely fail. I can understand now why you seemed reluctant to watch that BG US channel guys vid. It took a lot of effort to convince him to even consider immersive waxing rather than just drip lube. Told him he should have actually tried immersive waxing before dismissing it , otherwise he would stay skeptical forever . Also that doing no cleaning on any chain is not a fair test. The Silca advice he quoted definitely makes waxing harder than it should be and puts people off.
@navicto5 ай бұрын
don't get the paranoia / outcry with the single-use links... let's say you use drip between waxes, just buy a new one every time. With the amount of money we spend on cycling, often on frivolous things, this won't add up to much... (
@trentvlak5 ай бұрын
Wow my RocknRoll Gold isn't quite up to par!
@zerofrictioncycling9925 ай бұрын
no it was a good option circa 15 years ago but its well behind now. bit like an i-phone one was a powerhouse once but is not really there now. The mfg just living off legacy and never updating product - they are simply going to fall behind. It is unlikely many of the products that are decades old like Tri-Flow, RNR, Finish line, white lightning etc will be remotely near the top products released in the last 5 years with genuine R&D behind them to be a top bicycle chain lube. And even on a lubricant cost base, your decades old RNR gold which would now be costing them a pittance to make - its more expensive than buying Synergetic or Synerg-E. You need to apply a lot more, and a lot more often. So whilst its $15 a bottle, you will go through $60 worth twice over before you go through a $50 bottle of Synerg-E etc. So even just looking at the lubricant cost, and not even factoring higher component wear - you are paying more for the dated old lubricant than you are the fancy new stuff.
@trentvlak5 ай бұрын
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I just ordered some moltenspeedwax and six YBN chains. Going to finally jump in to the waxing thing!
@realbriguyG5 ай бұрын
Tell me more about your bikini line...
@bert-og7gw5 ай бұрын
what you do to DR...are rumours true 😂
@zerofrictioncycling9925 ай бұрын
no idea what you mean, but i can say if it came out of DR's mouth, it isnt true. you can pretty much apply that universally to him
@dalemadz77375 ай бұрын
I think they are just bots or smth spamming your videos, ignore them!
@MidNthRunner-xy7qp5 ай бұрын
2 videos in a week ? Thats not DR...something weird is going on.
@hamadalshamsi15 ай бұрын
Get over it.
@zerofrictioncycling9925 ай бұрын
??? what am i getting over and why? Or is mysterious posting your thing...
@trentvlak5 ай бұрын
You can't decide how I feel!
@SnaxNoCo5 ай бұрын
"Get over it." WTF does that mean in this context? I personally hope that ZFC never "gets over" testing, evaluating, analyzing, and reporting on chain lubes. He's saving people a lot of time, money, and fuss--which is awesome!
@colinl29085 ай бұрын
Ok, I'll say it...what do you mean?
@dawn_rider5 ай бұрын
Adam , I think your right about the Campagnolo Ekar C-Link 13x Quick Links. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qZuYgZxlx7SXnoE.html would be the place to say only 1 set of quick links are allowed per chain and it does not ! I could not find anything in the campag documentation but it's not the most friendly site to find stuff. From a really quick read, calcium sulphonate thickeners do badly in the sprayoff test ASTM D4049-20 ( you have to pay to see the standard ) . Compared to most lubricants the ratio of wear particles to lubricant will be higher and the volume of water in the chain will probably be higher than the lubricant ? Its pure speculation on my part but the hydrodynamic forces between wear particles which have a high surface area compared to the chain lubrication surfaces are probably jet washing the sulphonate off ? On the plus side, apparently the rust performance of these thickeners is good to excellent. Silca seem repurpose products used in the aerospace industry but as far as I know they are not subject to water and grit ! I wonder if bees like the smell of Silca Synergetic or the E version or if it makes them attack ? I was cleaning using solvent outside last summer and had lots of unfriendly wasps around me ! Probably does wonders for house guests ( gets rid of them 🙂 )