Fantastic video as always! Love to hear your thoughts and opinions on methods and another great job done. I would probably put myself in between those two jobs and cost wise, probably to the lower end. But, like yourself, I would make a lot of it off site in my workshop. I also do the same method of making doors as you - but I cut the centre panel out myself with a plunge saw and use a rebating bit from the back to put the panel in and then glue and pin in place. I too do all my fillers and face frames the same as you and use a concealed hinge. I always give the choice to the customer - whether they want MDF or MRMDF. Things I don’t do - I don’t do detailed drawings, I don’t spray and I don’t use beech ply for the internals. But I do strongly recommend a painter that I trust to get the best possible finish with hand painting and tell customers the attention and care that MDF needs to get the best finish. Keep up the great work!

Like John Jones, I work onsite for all my projects as I don't have the room for a workshop with all my projects I have full plans and lists before I start the job. So I think it is down to the skill of the man not the set up that matters. I know I have lost a lot of business over the years as they wanted me to do work below my own standards using cheap quality material and hardware. The way I look at it is if the quality is not good enough for my house then I won't put it in someone else house as it just shows you up as they won't be thinking why did I tell him to use cheap material in 5 years time they will just say you are useless and that is all they will tell their friends and family.

Great comparison! Very useful video.

Some great points made that customers should think about when choosing a maker as I’ve seen some many choose the cheapest then wish they hadn’t.

This channel is great. Really informative.

Thanks for the analysis Alistair, helpful for both potential customers and furniture makers alike. I'm very grateful for the work of yourself and others such as Peter Millard and Andy Mac. Invaluable for guys like me in the first years of running a carpentry business.

I'm site based! And have never left an mdf edge like that!

I have watched your videos for well over a week now and you have inspired me to do better!. currently i make bespoke projects on site and before i never battered an eyelid. i thought that battling painting and dust were all part of the norm when going into customers houses but i have a new goal, to get a workspace to pre build so no cutting and painting needs to take up the clients time and frustrations. Thank you for showing me a great method to approach fitted furniture, i usually build everything into the alcoves , utilising all of the space but building a box and hiding that in the alcove is better in terms of shelving and time. i look forward to wathcing more of your videos as my time on this planet progresses . thank you once again

Definitely worth taking all said into consideration when choosing a company for such projects. If you treasure details, aesthetics and class rather then bare functionality I would definitely choose your company 👍. Great videos, love them.

Very helpful - thank you!

Excellent video. We've learn a lot. Thank you.

Thank you for this explanation!

Sanding inbetween being most important! Good brushes and rolllers too!

Very helpful, thank you - to me as someone looking at making DIY fitted furniture (as even the lower budget version is too much at the moment!) so I can hopefully strive for a higher end finish. It won’t be your standard but will certainly be better than that warped door, furry end grain and split hinge fixings…

Very interesting/informative video ! Subscribed!

Great video. It was good to see a comparison of others work. I make similar stuff for my own house as I renovate. I also know people who are winning work on price alone and wonder what their quality is like. I felt you went out of your way not to criticize the other job, but to me the items you pointed out (the slab doors, the hinges and the finish on that top) were not acceptable. The hinges are plain wrong. Whilst I could accept some things being done more easily and cheaply I would never accept that on my own amateur work. Your work on the other hand is superb and you clearly have high personal standards. Only found your channel recently but very interesting and I particularly enjoy the emphasis on the business aspects.

Very well done , you didn't knock the previous guy , just a straight comparison.

Hi Alastair. Brilliant channel. Only discovered a couple of months ago but am hooked. Late response to some brilliant comments. I’m a carpenter since leaving school. Now 53. Do a lot of fitted furniture wardrobes floating shelves. I love doing them & would like to just do them all the time. I make & fit on site but am in the process of converting my garage into a home workshop. I feel that’s the way to go to achieve better results & make life easier all round. I consider myself very fairly priced if anything underpriced. I’m finding I’ve not got a few jobs recently follow ons in a couple of cases where I’ve got a bit dearer due to increasing material costs. I buy 50 sheets of 18mm mdf. I think it’s medite. I paid about £850 for these from magnets early 2021 by buying them in bulk. Now the same amount at current costs will be £1800. As it’s £36 a sheet now. Other thing I find is quite often once I’ve fitted my work , customers then paint what I’ve done to keep costs down & make a right lash up of it. Clearly doing no rubbing down in between coats especially on edges. Hence getting a really poor finish which to someone not knowing looks like that’s how I’ve machined it.

I used those hidden hinges before. I did exactly the same as that guy did with the edge grain screws. It split because I joined two boards together. This was when I first started. Thankfully now I use concealed hinges.

MDF had a bad rap for quite a few years in the UK -- to my untrained eyes / ears -- but having very recently waded into the woodworking world and started making very rudimentary things with it, I can honestly say I'm very impressed with it's strength and flexibility in terms of its applications and uses. Sealing edges and preparing them for paint is a little extra work when going for aesthetics and even long-term durability, but I think it's worth the extra outlay in effort.

Great video, really shows the difference in quality. I think you could have also added that the national companies aren’t as able to bespoke it as much as they have set sizes to work with often.

Good video, explaining higher costs to customers is difficult. I get my boards cut, edged and primed, then joint everything with Dominos and biscuits in my small home workshop. I then take everything to site and assemble. I use Medite boards, Blum hardware and good fittings throughout, everything is finished to a really high standard. I don’t make a lot of money out of this but I’m still getting potential clients telling me they have had a quote for half the price. What I really want to tell them at this stage is that anything that cheap is going to be a total piece of shit. Obviously that’s not quite the approach to take with a client, so I try to explain things in a similar way to you and avoid criticising other tradesmen. But one day I will snap and start ranting!

Like the video. Think you handled the comparisons very well without putting the cheaper job down. I have worked on jobs where other people have done work and the customer is very happy with the finish. Quite often after we have completed our work, it is only then that they notice the difference in finish between previous work and ours. This is no disrespect to whoever did the other work, the work was to a good standard and the customer was happy with it, it's just to highlight that the customer sometimes has no idea of the different quality in work until they see a comparison. At the end of the day, as long as when you're doing a job, the quality of work is in line with what the customer is paying and the customer is happy - then you have done an excellent job. Think your video does a great job of comparing the quality differences you can expect between two similar jobs in different price ranges, this is always difficult to get across. Not all customers can afford or even want a high end product and there are markets for high end work right down to the most basic work. Providing companies don't promise better than they can deliver then there's work enough for all and happy customers - regardless of the quality.

Hi What you need to do is take this video to your customers, and show them the quality of work they will pay for , I am sure they can see that they would get a very good job with your company. Keep the vids coming please. Stuart

Great video, very fair and well broken down content.

Good video Alistair I’d also argue some if your points. I don’t have a workshop either but get all my panels cut and edged by Cutwrights, all my doors are also made as 5 piece doors. I have seen some dodgy work out there produced in local workshops so I think it depends on the standards you work to. All my painting is done on site by a professional furniture painter and people assume his finish has been sprayed so it’s not all about having a workshop.

Good information. I too find it is incredibly difficult to convey quality and craftsmanship in proposing work to a client. Recommendations and referees are invaluable. When you were explaining the reason for a gap between rail and stile it seemed as if the rail shrank where I feel you were attempting to explain the movement of the timber would be across the width and not the length (therefore the shrinkage in the stile would be responsible for any gap between the two). And in my first floating panel doors it was not allowing for enough space for the expansion of the solid timber "floating" panel across its width that caused the gap between the rail and stile! Cheers, David

So this is a problem I’m dealing with , after many years being someone who can do this for you as a “side job” I now want to take it on full time. I have space to build off site and spray units , but the difference in prices to charge baffles me , thanks for sharing your thoughts Alistair it make more sense. I think I under estimate actually what I do 😳

Hi, to paint a unit like that i would say a grand, i would probably fall inbetween the two prices that where stated (london) my products are always evolving, atm zinnser 123 plus, then crown undercoat \ primer then crown satin, crown because i have built up a good relationship with my crown shop, tou pret fillers in the early coats ,

I been on both sides as a carpenter/ joiner. Learned my trade through apprenticeship and would always set up on site but covered all aspects from the roof to the kitchen. Would make units on site. But the more customers wanted furniture I moved to a workshop and changed my entire set up. For a shaker door I normally use a rail and stile method so would be interested to see the method you used on yours. Switched over to sayerlack paint and huge difference in finish.

Lovely project, workshops always better. 5:39 your miter was a bit off square tho, moulding didn’t line up. Spotted and had to say 😂 just don’t ever look at my work ok.

You were being really generous with that other guys work, the fit and finish on it is appalling even for a built on site job. Slab doors shouldn't warp like that as long as the MDF is decent quality, I'm guessing the stuff used there was absolutely cheapest available and then not moisture sealed after construction to stabilise it before painting. It all looked a bit of a cowboy job to be honest.

Fair comparison however there are some small carpenter joiners who will make the units in their workshop who use moisture resistant MDF and spray paint them and would use the recessed kitchen type hinges and hardware

Can't help think that a couple of hours with some p38, a sander, and a high density roller full of paint would bring that budget build far closer in terms of finish qualty, Add some budget euro hinges and you're even closer. Very interesting comparison though.

£250 for painting sounds very cheap? Thanks for the vids, it's so interesting to see how other people work. As a small manufacturer myself, I find pricing is always a pain, because obviously you want the work, but need to make a living and cover your costs. I think the joiner who built the other unit might have realised that he hadn't made a great deal of profit by the time he'd bought and fitted the glass shelves etc.. in terms of the doors I mainly use the method of gluing 6mm strips onto a 12mm back panel and routing a v through the join, also routing the edges depending on the design. Anyway, enjoy watching the Channel.

If the customer wants traditional style butt hinges on MDF doors, you can glue a strip of solid timber to the edge of the door, then glue your 6mm panels ontop to hide the join. The timber allows you to securely fix butt hinges to the door. If you sand and seal all the edges this can work well.

Hi Alistair great video I'm interested to know whether you had to inform the customer on the price difference or if they liked your work and its was fairly guaranteed ?

Good video and you can defo see the difference in the finish. I know ur shop is home based was wondering do you get complaints from neighbours about noise. Ive set my workshop up and sound proofed and insulated and will be working from home next year

Suprised the other chap didn't just glue an edge on those rough edges, would have had a perfectly smooth surface to then paint.

Alistair, Hi....with your waterbased paint you use which I believe is a single pack product (no catalyst added)..... do you have any issue with grain raising and swollen fibers on your MDF?.....as opposed to a pre-cat, AC or PU alternative?

Certainly shows you get what you pay for. Very interesting

The 'other' units would have been vastly improved (& still could be!) with decent decoration. That was awful! However the thinner materials used certainly make for a much poorer quality product. Nice work Alastair. I always work on the adage that the in years to come the quality is remembered & not the price!

I have been working on new builds since I became a carpenter. I recently quit my job doing that as the original spark and enthusiasm for carpentry that I used to have was completely gone. I am trying to get into doing this kind of work and I've only just started out so I'm not going to be able to offer the pre sprayed finish that I would like. But I am a perfectionist so I wouldn't be able to live with myself putting out work like the lower end units you have shown here. I know I can offer a much higher standard to that even if i'm building it all on sight. Does anyone build on site but then sand fill and seal all the edges for the customer? Then they have a much better surface to work with when they paint it themselves? Or does anyone build on site and then also paint it on site as part of the service? I'm just looking for tips as i'm just starting but I also want to put out the best product I possibly can.

Hi could you tell me the process of painting the units please and what products you used and would recommend for mdf/mrmdf. Thanks Aaron.

I would suggest that the biggest issue is how does the tradesperson convey to the potential client that his/her work will be worth the not inconsiderable extra cost. In the case shown, the client would probably be aware that the older units are beginning to show the signs of the lower costs - the painted edges, the splitting from screws. This case shows the benefit of getting recommendations from an independent third party ( interior designer in this instance). I agree that, for many people, the difference of around £3000 would entice them to have a site operation of about a week as against to the installation of the newer units of 3 days. So, I don’t think that extra 4 (?) days would be the critical factor in getting your workshop built product accepted. I also agree that having a workshop is not, in itself, the guarantee of higher quality. It should be because of the higher investment in equipment and time, but we have all probably seen crap from a workshop and excellence from an on-site cabinet maker. So, how do you convince someone to pay a lot more for higher quality? - does the client have the potential extra £3000? If not, walk away - does the client want better quality? Perhaps they are renting or about to sell the property. Again, walk away - controversially perhaps, are there signs in the house that the client values high quality? Ornaments, pictures, furniture etc. - that third party referral has almost done the sales job for you - but can you network with local influencers (what a horrible phrase) to get recommendations - get the client to your workshop if you can so that they can see the quality - and not just be told about it - have a library of samples (doors, hinges, edges, mouldings etc.) unpainted and painted, so that the client can make an informed decision - present yourself appropriately to the client ; don’t come over as a salesman when meeting the client but don’t go to the other extreme. Dress smartly, but not expensively; take your shoes off when going into the house; explain how yours is a family business - it’s success has come through quality and family values; don’t disparage other work on display - even if the client does; just say that every quality has its price and it’s place - our work is designed to last and last - for which there has to be a cost. That list is clearly not exhaustive - or necessarily totally appropriate as I’m not in the business and so don’t understand it’s nuances. However, I’ve been a (serious) amateur woodworker for over 40 years and, before retirement, had my own business employing around 40 people. I do actually do some consulting work for a couple of other businesses - but these are friends and I don’t expect payment.

I’d make the cabinets you did as a sole trader for £2800 and £400 to paint. I’d finish the job in 2 days from start to finish for the joinery work and my painter can paint the job in a day. I use a third party to cut the materials for a small fee. Melamine all internal carcasses and completely edged. I’d use paintable edging on any rough mdf edge that includes doors and shelves to make the painters life easier, the same filler panels and hinges. I just can’t understand how you can turn a decent profit sending detailed drawings, spraying(which would take 2-3days in itself), carefully delivering etc...

Hi Alastair, I’m making a floor to ceiling display cabinet, 25 mm MDF top and bottom with hardwood corner posts, it has to be finished in black, I’ve rolled on white acrylic undercoat, rubbed down with 180 grit and re applied a second coat, will rub that down with 220, I need to start top coats soon, I need to put a top quality finish on in black, what paint do you recommend to use on the Leland acrylic undercoat ? Do I roll it and brush it on with a tin of paint or buy spray cans ? I’m not set up yet with my spray gun and compressor. Any help could be good 👍

2k seems low for a week of work. After materials and expenses, the joiner probably made under 1k. Were the boxes made of particle board vs the plywood you used?

Nice measured comparison, you aren't coming accross like you're taking jabs at a jobbing joiner at all. I'm workshop based like yourself - wouldn't have it any other way!

1800£ unbelievable. May be it was 20 years ago

Love your videos and your work. However at just over 3 minutes in I feel I have to stop the video and disagree with some of the things you are saying. I do a lot of bespoke work myself and am not lucky enough to have a workshop. Living in London it’s not cost effective for my company at this stage. However, comparing these two jobs is fair, but, not a fair comparison to compare the on site work to all who work on site only. For example, I survey my jobs to the millimetre, use sketch up and produce a cut list from that. I then get my supplier (medite MR boards) to cut everything to size. I take this to site and unload all my festool gear including extraction and MFT (basically a portable workshop) and proceed to fit. My doors are always made up by dominos with 18mm stiles and rails and a 6mm centre sat in a rebate, clamped on site with 10 minute glue. Once I am done I then prep for finish. I then finish myself and spray in situ using HVLP Fuji spray q4 system with tikurilla paint. Everything is masked off and feel my level of finish is pretty comparable to yours although I expect it would be just that little better if I had that workshop. My price would be around 2/3's 3/4 of what you charge as a reference. My point is, not all joiners/Carpenter, whether mobile or from a workshop have the same standards. Just felt I had to get that out there. Keep up the great work. Best wishes

Ps, 2 coats of primer, 3 of under coat, 3 top coat, minimum, sand and fine fill inbetween!

I'm a site building chippy and that unit was as rough as they come!!? Shame on that person leaving the finish like that! Gives the rest of us who take pride in their work a bad name.

👍

@7:09 looks like the cabinet frame is plywood. What's the reason for that? Why not mdf or particleboard?

For a hundred pounds or so of extra cost the £1,800 furniture could have been made to be just as good as the more expensive, workshop based product in my opinion. At £1,900 such a project would be a very good price indeed! I've been working as a self employed joiner making furniture for around fifteen years so I do have experience to back me up. I'm a 'one man band' that does have a workshop

How many laps back and forth between rooms did you have to do to make this video? 😂 Hope you got it all in one take!

No doubt it's a tidy job...3x better hmmm - things the joiner could have done within budget to improve massivley says no to me..clean up the edges etc.

Judging by this video I should of pursued the fitted furniture, and I should of also charged a lot more for the job I did 🤦‍♂️ I would of been ashamed with those edges 😮 ahh well nevermind

17:09 hit pause left hand door mitre done properly. Right hand door mitre out of alignment. I’m no carpenter!

There is no way that a build like that can done with solid wood for £5000 in the UK.

how many full sized sheets does it take to make one of these? can get 25 sheets of Medite mr for £700, surely it won't take more than that to make it? so then £4,400 for painting and fitting? I need to change trade 😱

That 2k job was poor but you can’t ‘‘tis a one man band, we can have workshops aswell and have a high end finish. As for you 5k looks a tasty finish but it’s very basic Cabinetry and design for that price.

Where are you ?

8 cowboys disliked this video.

Still can't justify £5k though

There isn’t 3 k difference between the two jobs

The 1800 pounds one looks absolutely crappy.

Cant stand people who knock other people work... than on the next hand your telling people not to join mdf because it wharps .... than a few months later your Irish mate in hes joinery is doing the same thing so dont think you know what your talking about... as a Chippy who has worked for all the high end shops and homes I think your wrong mate ...please give up your day job

Why build furnitures from "shit" (MDF) which is painted after building it? Furnitures from "wood" you can build with boardr made from real wood. Not from glue with saw dust. MDF for furnitures is not worth the work and time you spend for working with. 5.000 Pound for scrap with paint!

Can see firing on your job on this video. I can also see badly finished mitres on your doors. Also why can’t a joiner working on his own be vat registered? Remember a video you recently uploaded that you’d gone back to that had opened up in all the joints. It’s the easiest job in the world to pick bad points on other people’s work.