4th Order Bandpass - What could go wrong?

  Рет қаралды 8,993

Audio Judgement

Audio Judgement

2 жыл бұрын

This video contains a 4th order bandpass build for home use. It uses a Dayton Audio Ultimax 8" subwoofer and Dayton Audio SPA250 plate amplifier. The video doesn't teach how to design a BP4 enclosure. If you do want to learn, you can check my
DIY Audio Courses : audiojudgement.com/courses.html
The build had a few problems and I'm trying to make people aware of issues what might arise when building speaker boxes. If I am pleased with how the sub will turn out in the end, I'll post the building guide on my website.
Music Credits:
"Werq" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
creativecommons.org/licenses/b...

Пікірлер: 51
@user-oo1jo2sm7b
@user-oo1jo2sm7b 4 ай бұрын
Helo! I have extensive experience in construction BP 4th and will give you some friendly advice. Turn the speaker the other way around to cool it down. Sealed chamber must be smaller. Make simulation for speaker as sealed box. The volume should be such that give xmax at doubled nominal power. For better result, as posible, use a birch plywood 3/4 inch. Optimal port area is 2/3 Sd (effective diameter). Never fold the port! Divide the port in half with a vertical partition (rigidity and increased self-resonance of the port). Tuning frequency must be 48Hz -3dB. Do not symetrycal or flat response in simulation, the left edge must be higher. Make a 8dB efficience at peak. Electrical polarity will be reversed. All the best!
@colbydolby6559
@colbydolby6559 2 жыл бұрын
Hey Marius, it's good to see these techy guys commenting on your channel, also good to hear you are ditching that silly plate amp. Thumbs up on the video.
@MikeBorgheseAudio
@MikeBorgheseAudio 2 жыл бұрын
Good job over all ! Keep going !
@tac6044
@tac6044 Жыл бұрын
I have a old Boston Acoustics PV400 4th order bandpass home theatre subwoofer. The enclosure is in the shape of a skyscraper, 10" x10" footprint and 20" tall and uses a little 7" woofer. Completely sealed with two down firing ports (it sits on little 1" legs) . One of the most unique little subs I have ever seen and for a small sub it cracks really hard, better than some high quality 10s I've owned. It sounds far better than it should. Awesome little score. Actually have two of them.
@TBO207
@TBO207 2 жыл бұрын
I built a 4th order for a single 8 and never modeled it, but it's a 3:1 and it's had really good bandwidth, also on the port I rounded over the edges and cut a 45 for the curve in the port and there is absolutely no port noise, maybe I just got lucky but it seems like 4th orders or very dependent on your sealed side, even changing .1 cft changes the sound pretty drastically
@johnviera3884
@johnviera3884 2 жыл бұрын
The problem with bandpass is that if you want a wide flat frequency response (30-60Hz) you won’t get the SPL. In that case you’re just building a complicated, heavier ported box. Bandpass is great for a narrow loud frequency. Look at that response at 5:52 +1 db. This same driver in a ported box will challenge that same response
@JoshM7
@JoshM7 2 жыл бұрын
4:47, get a UMIK-1 and your statement here will change. I've got a number of recordings/videos and it picks up the bass just fine. Even the subsonic frequencies under 20Hz it records faithfully. It's accuracy is lower the lower you play under 20Hz but it still does a great job under 20Hz. For this subwoofer though the UMIK-1 would perfectly record any sound it puts out.
@jbarelds78
@jbarelds78 2 жыл бұрын
Marius does own a UMIK-1. I suspect he means it's difficult to record it in a way that would convey the issue in a KZfaq video.
@AudioJudgement
@AudioJudgement 2 жыл бұрын
To be honest, it didn't cross my mind to use my measurement microphone for recording audio :)
@JoshM7
@JoshM7 2 жыл бұрын
@@AudioJudgement It does a good job. If the bass is flat then the recording will reflect that. If it has uneven bass then that'll show in the recording. And if played back on a system that is tuned flat it'll sound almost identical to the response you recorded. (Hope that makes sense) If you're trying to record port noise then that could be an issue if the mic is close and you play it loud enough to overload the mic. My Umik-1 is limited to 120dB and in my car my Ultimax 10 overloads the mic especially in the 18Hz+ area. I use either my iPad Pro (It actually works with the iPad and I found a good app that can properly utilize the mic) or audacity to record with it. And I can watch the limits of the Umik-1 that way.
@pim_kahlert
@pim_kahlert 2 жыл бұрын
Hi there, Nice finish on the box, and very smart that you made a seperate chamber for the amplifier. Some tips on your concerns: to lower the port noise you could try to place some 45 degree pieces in the corners of the port to help guide the airflow. More importantly, roundover the edges of the port pieces, both inside and outside of the box to avoid any sharp edges that will create turbulence/noise. I also noticed that you did not continue the port length example through the baffle, which is also part of the port. For best SQ, the UM8-22 however is best used in a sealed box. Any resonant system (ported design), prefers a driver with a Qts of 0.5 or below to improve damping. The QTS of the UM8 is already above that, but in a 15L box, the QTS increases to almost 0.9. Something like the similar priced/capable RSS210HO would be better suited for this application. It has less Xmax, but with the 200W amp, that should not be an issue. I think you already mentioned this in your ported subwoofer design video, why not appply it? I also understand you dont use bracing for this small box, but a thinner MDF sheet is used for sealing the rear chamber. This rear chamber also has very high preasure levels, and this back panel has the largest span width! This is by far the weakest point of the box, which could harm Ql. (same goes for the port pieces) If you want the best matching between WINisd and your measurements, also change Qa, Ql and Qp to realistic values. You can even turn on transmission line simulation to see how the port resonances influence the frequency response.
@AudioJudgement
@AudioJudgement 2 жыл бұрын
Yes, I was analyzing some of the details which I didn't consider important since the port air velocity was much lower than what I'm used to. Like not rounding port panels, or using thinner port panels. Regarding enclosure type, as far as I know, what works in sealed, works in BP4 as well.
@djambush360
@djambush360 2 жыл бұрын
Bandpass chassis: Magnet: mid to high power. Membrane: stiff as f*** but light as a feather. Heavy membrane let the box get small but also the impulsivity gets slow and queasy. 8:30 The longer a port gets, the higher the problems (in case you want a BP that sound good and not only is loud). This one is too long for a good sounding BP. I think this is not a good chassis for a BP. The numbers may say that you can use it but there is more than a (compiled) perfect frequency response. I have a Monacor SPH-250 CTC in a BP. The numbers say it would better fit in a horn or TL but the sound you get out of this box is awesome. It has 4 ports with 7 cm diameter, 18,5 cm long (on the other side the box is 78 litres big but therefore needs not much power for high volume)
@audfrknaveen2256
@audfrknaveen2256 2 жыл бұрын
I made one 12" ported height 1" x 12" Vent air velocity is under 17m/sec as per winisd. But still I got port noise. One reaon could be the port height too small compared to width.
@2002ZRX1200R
@2002ZRX1200R 2 жыл бұрын
Proper design for a box that has good freq response and flat enough bandwidth to minimize listening fatigue will always have a smaller ported chamber than the sealed chamber, and the subs ebp should be
@oynamalan
@oynamalan 2 жыл бұрын
I'd love to learn your perspective for a car audio subwoofer 6.5" and slimmest closed enclosure possible.
@johnviera3884
@johnviera3884 2 жыл бұрын
If you want decent bass, don’t use anything smaller than a 10” unless it’s absolutely necessary. And in that case, is it even worth it? When you already have four 6.5s in your car doors.
@garrinvr
@garrinvr Жыл бұрын
Nice build. though My first thought was wondering how you'll replace the woofer if it somehow breaks... tbh, I would be scared AF of spending the time and money building a box like this if I didn't design an access panel of some kind (Maybe making the back of the amp chamber removable) to allow the woofer to be replaced non-destructively btw, @ 0:36 you can hear the Camera smack the cone, lol
@modernbassheads5051
@modernbassheads5051 2 жыл бұрын
Hey man I just wanna say I’ve talked to a lot of car audio gurus who specialize in bandpass enclosures and are known to build proven boxes that hit high spl numbers, all I can tell you is the magic formula that seems to work every time is keeping the sealed chamber small and ported chamber big, much bigger. I’ve seen guys shrink from 1.5cubes sealed to 1 cube sealed and gain massively on low end response and high end response. (Single 12). For 15s you want around 1.5-1.7 cubes sealed. Don’t ask me why this works, but throw away most of the information you get from loudspeaker cookbook it’s outdated
@AudioJudgement
@AudioJudgement 2 жыл бұрын
This box is not about SPL, but rather linear response and wide playable range. If you want to hit just one note for high SPL, you can do that. However, if you want linear response that box would be awful.
@chrizekiel
@chrizekiel 2 жыл бұрын
Unrelated question, can I perform spl measurements on a tower speaker before I install the port(tuned for 40hz )( mid and tweeter are sealed) ? If yes should I measure without hole or with hole. (Port is out of stock rn. )
@AudioJudgement
@AudioJudgement 2 жыл бұрын
If you don't have the port installed then it's not tuned to 40 Hz. The measurements would be pointless
@chrizekiel
@chrizekiel 2 жыл бұрын
@@AudioJudgement my logic was since psudo anechoic deletes hz below 200hz then having a port with pipe and port with no pipe would create the same spl graph
@AudioJudgement
@AudioJudgement 2 жыл бұрын
Well, yeah, but the bass driver will behave differently as you now basically have a hole in your box and large amounts of cancellations will occur
@b3owu1f
@b3owu1f Жыл бұрын
I cant figure out why in WinISD.. when I specify a port to 6" wide.. in a 2cuft box.. it says 120" port length. What? But then.. when I add 2 ports.. each 6" wide.. it doubles the length?? How does that make sense? I've added a 2nd 6" port.. that should dbl the port volume with 2.. so why does the length now double? Or do the calculations get screwed up somehow when ports are too much volume?
@AudioJudgement
@AudioJudgement Жыл бұрын
Increasing the port area either by making it larger or by adding multiple ports will increase the resonant frequency of the box. To compensate for that (lower the resonant frequency) you need to make the port longer. In conclusion, to maintain the desired resonant frequency, if you increase the diameter of the port, you have to make it longer as well.
@b3owu1f
@b3owu1f Жыл бұрын
@@AudioJudgement Interesting.. I figured wider same length is more volume.. if anything I would think you would lower length to account for wider port. So why in WinISD can I apparently use a 1" port that is 12" long and seems to stay at the 35hz tune. That makes no sense given how boxes all seem to have larger ports. But more so.. why is adding a 2nd port ALSO requiring BOTH ports to be 2x longer? Again.. I would think more port volume with 2 ports would NOT require longer port length too? So how does one fit a 215inch port length in a 25" box? Or is it basically saying.. the driver can't come close to 35hz tune with out a beyond ridiculous port length?
@AudioJudgement
@AudioJudgement Жыл бұрын
You are exactly right. At some point the port becomes too long to fit inside the box. You either reduce the diameter to make the length more manageable and risk port air chuffing noise or you try a slot port which fits better even at high lengths.
@chaseleim4773
@chaseleim4773 2 жыл бұрын
That port looks awfully small for a 4th
@audfrknaveen2256
@audfrknaveen2256 2 жыл бұрын
Hey Marius, as far as I know, you are from Romania. Do you live there now or in any other country??? Just curious to know.
@AudioJudgement
@AudioJudgement 2 жыл бұрын
Yep, still in Romania.
@jeremyphilander8833
@jeremyphilander8833 2 жыл бұрын
Hey bro. Build a cubo box
@williamtoth6186
@williamtoth6186 2 жыл бұрын
I made a 4th order with an ultimax 8 and it slams.
@saturnfrak
@saturnfrak 2 жыл бұрын
Where's the "whaaaasap guys"? At its in the middle lol
@dtibor5903
@dtibor5903 2 жыл бұрын
Build a double reflex box, they sound so nice. I don't like bandpass subs
@Grommet2007
@Grommet2007 2 жыл бұрын
I took a brief look at double-reflex boxes. They made sense back when drivers had low Xmax. Most good drivers these days don't suffer from that issue, so the loss of in-band linearity for the slightly better power handling is no longer an enticing tradeoff.
@dtibor5903
@dtibor5903 2 жыл бұрын
I meant dual reflex boxes (it's a bose type enclosure) with resonant chambers on both sides of the speaker. It is quite rarely used, but i have a friend who builds these types of enclosures for stage audio, and they sound fantastic.
@dtibor5903
@dtibor5903 2 жыл бұрын
It called doube chamber reflex also
@dtibor5903
@dtibor5903 2 жыл бұрын
Their advantage is there are 2 chambers, one tuned for 40-45hz and the second one is tuned to around 80-90 hz
@Grommet2007
@Grommet2007 2 жыл бұрын
@@dtibor5903 You've described what's more commonly known as a 6th order bandpass alignment. More correctly, a 6th order parallel-tuned alignment. They're not that uncommon. However they do require drivers with low Qts for the best results.
@johnviera3884
@johnviera3884 2 жыл бұрын
Damping material is a waste on subwoofers
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