3 headed dragon.

What about drag did you experience any chain suck? I hate chain suck because it sucks...

Greek 3 headed dragon

​@ Hey! Great question that I meant to address in the video and spaced on. They claim a 20% decrease in drag, for a couple of reasons: -the way the new through-axle/axle/bearings interface, there is less flex in the system, so less binding -there is less drag on the pawls, since when freewheeling, only one is touching at a given moment, instead of three I also experienced a decrease in drag. No way for me to personally quantify if it was 20%, but they do their research and I'd believe that in a lab setting that's the case. Cheers- Dan at Fanatik

The number of pawls that are engaged at one time. If light load only 1, as more load causes flex, more pawls (3 or 4) engage to fight/distribute the torque load. The pawls are the dragon heads.

Thank you

S B thanks

Ty

Thanks Hector, glad you found it informative! Cheers - Dan at Fanatik

Glad you thought so!! Cheers, Dan at Fanatik

Hahaha, technical term! "whacking"

Thanks, will do!!

Oh man, I really appreciate the feedback, especially coming from someone in the industry. Much appreciated. And thanks for the personal insight as well! Best, Dan at Fanatik

It's weird for a professional mechanic to pick something such as this hub really and not say DT Swiss which require less maintenance, are even easier to maintain, and are generally of higher quality and noticeably more consistent and more reliable both due to that quality and due to it's design. This is the first time I've heard mechanic saying they chose Industry Nine, it's almost exclusively reserved for fashion/bling builds. My mechanic just said "no, go DT, preferably with exp" - which is by very, very far the most winning and highest performing hub in existence, for the last decade taking basically all XC wins, last 3 gold medals, last 3 silver medals, last 3 bronze medals , etc. So your "but honestly nothing tops a wheelset with proper engagement" provenly does not work. Very weird for professional mechanic.

@@NiohNiohYT It's weird that a person who ISN'T a professional is somehow criticizing a completely valid and experienced opinion based on heresay from their mechanic, with absolutely no proof what-so-ever. First. I didn't 'choose' I9. I own multiple wheelsets with Onyx original, Onyx Vesper, DT Swiss 350s with 180 internals, and I9 Torch. I have ridden all of them thousands of miles. Can your mechanic say the same? I'm not basing my opinion off of industry jargon, slogan, and marketing, but rather, 1st hand experience. None of these hubs have proven 'less reliable' in everyday circumstances. DT Swiss are easy to maintain, they are just simple, enough said. Onyx are as reliable, come with NOTICIBLY lower drag, at the cost of weight and being slightly more complicated. I have ridden Onyx through thousands of miles of FOOT deep snow. The only time I had to maintain one was after 6 months of salt and icey road conditions. I9 is whatever. If I had to 'choose' I will support Onyx until the end of time, they make a much better product. (not to mention it's a single dude working out of his own factory, not some giant conglomerate that can purchase peoples opinions) If I need to build cheaper swap out wheelsets? I build with DT. As far as 'winningest'. DT has money, a lot of it. They are on every racers bike because they have agreements with bike brands so they get auto'd onto racers bikes. It's that simple. There is nothing wrong with DT at all, but they have money to market and buy people, simple enough. Case in point: There has been multiple independent wind tunnel and subjective tests for what wheels are actually 'the best'. Companies like HED and ENVE always come out on top of actual aerodynamics at greater wind pitch, and subjectively always feel better. Yet somehow Specialized is always "The best", "The most winningest" and on the most professionals bikes. Why? Because they are near the largest bike company in the world and have the money to put every racer they want on their gear. I own multiple S-works bikes, their stuff is good, their wheels are objectively not 'the best' and this points to your entire argument of DT is somehow the best. This isn't even to mention that professional racers aren't necessarily using consumer gear, they get all the fancy under development stuff. Lastly, I was a US Olympic Gold medalists personal mechanic for years. I have ridden tens of thousands of miles on these products, can your mechanic claim any of this? Get off your BS Fanboy high horse, Other people can have opinions different and maybe even MORE valid than yours without having to deal with your trash trolling.

@@NiohNiohYT Your mechanic sounds like a moron with no real world experience how large companies work in professional bike racing.

Nope 😂 I run DT ratchet hubs with 60t and I swap the stock bearings for skf's when they are worn out, every 4 yrs or so. Clean the old and put a new dab of grease every month or so they'll last forever. Pawls are trash

Agreed :D

Thanks! Dan at Fanatik

Thanks! And thanks for watching! Cheers, Dan at Fanatik

The thing that started to bother me about Onyx is that all the weight it adds is un-sprung. After my time riding the Zerode Taniwha (we reviewed that too), I realized how much of a difference that actually makes. Thanks for the comment. I've often thought that if I can't swing it in the bike industry, I'll go back to school for engineering. Best, Dan at Fanatik

I've always had dt swiss with the star ratchet, except for my new hardtail build, so we will see how this big guy beats it up.

@@Dan-qk4ns DT 350s and Pro4s for me too over the last 6 plus years.... both have been flawless for me.

ThunderStruckCoach I'm a lighter rider than most at 150lbs but I run white industries hubs and I have heard from others that they are really strong as well

Same, been riding my bontys for the last year with no issues. Looking to get King hubs or Hydras for my next hardtail build, but seems like everyone is always contradicting the claims they each make. Almost tempted to throw on another pair of bontys and call it a day

Thanks for the background, I didn't know! - Dan P.

Did you upgrade to 54t? How was the 36t engagement?

Mitchell MTB 36 tooth was totally fine, but the 54 tooth definitely felt different, and it did boost my confidence on tricky sections. I also bought it for the sound haha

@@aidanf2610 I might end up buying it for the sound as well. 😂 But the confidence in tech sections will also be a huge benefit.

My niner 18 tooth engagement with no grease sounds like a Walmart bike

Yes and no. It depends on if u have grease or oil

Agreed!

There's actually less drag in the Hydra then the torch - and the torch didnt have a lot of drag. This is due to the force of the leaf springs being much less than the coil springs plus shallower teeth.

Yep!!

The people at onyx RP say resistance is a drag... lol

Fair enough on the noise. Regarding durability, it's sort of silly to try and debate it. They tested the heck out of this, both in the lab and in the field (eg the hubs I have), and they have shown that they are more durable than the torch hubs. As they say, seeing is believing, and I believe it. Thanks for watching! Dan at Fanatik

Less engaged points mean you can transfer less torque until fault. You should be sure how many points of engagement you have. Reliance on flex is quite a lottery too. You will never have two identical parts. It is impossible. You say about lab test. To be honest i wouldn’t trust them. You never ride in perfect conditions. There is a lot of variables in real live. You say that pawls are smaller and lighter too. For me everything in this is kinda will work or no. They are producing too expensive parts for this :/.

It smacks of flex-stays

yea mass marketing machining of the driver and paws could be an issue due to the tight tolerances - i could see durability issues when not just 150lb dan rides but the 250lb jeff lenosky rides them

How many packs of cards could you buy for the price of one of these hubs? Ive put zip ties on my frame's seat stay and rotate them so they hit the spokes riding up long climbs during races or with buddies. There are certain sorts of people who are driven nuts by this sort of thing. One jerk at a race got so mad, he tried to start a fight after the race! I had to try hard not to laugh!

I don't know, although I'm sure Industry Nine could tell you. In practice, we have not had any problems with pawls skipping. Cheers, Dan at Fanatik

Great question! They are actually doing very well. I throw some extra grease in there every few months to keep them quieter, but other than that I haven't done anything! Cheers - Dan at Fanatik

@@FanatikBikeCo Hi Dan what you think about the durability of hydra comparing with other hubs ( lower engagement ) do pawls break easier ? , plus service and maintenance duration how often, if you again compare with other hubs ( DT swiss 240 service cycle ), also how about cost for service them. Then is drag, do you feel the difference going down hill or pedaling on flat ? more pedaling strokes required ? and pedal kickback ? Thanks

Thanks Dave! That bike is gonna be rad. The new Vesper version of the Onyx hub is notably lighter, but still heavier than the Hydra hub or something like the DT Swiss 240. Just depends on your priorities! Cheers, Dan at Fanatik

Here's a little trick. Disassemble you hub and degrease the driver. Then it will be as loud as possible until it makes a final big loud noise! After that let me know, Ive got hubs for sale!

@@rollinrat4850 degrease some things but use an oil instead on the engaging part's..

@@kaedeschulz5422 We normally use a sort of thick oil in driver mechanisms. Grease is generally too thick and it will make components stick together causing the hub to freewheel in both directions! Every hub is a little different in this respect. I have changed hub sound by trying thinner or thicker oil. But it's best to use what the manufacturer recommends. If you want to make noise, get a cowbell so people know to get out of the way. They work. Folks love my bell and it works on wildlife too. They don't want much to do with man. Really loud hubs are annoying like loud exhaust or loud stereos. Very often those things don't serve a purpose besides being annoying anyways.

@@rollinrat4850 Loud exhaust are only annoying to ppl who don't like engine sound. same goes for everything else that makes noise. I simply like the noise and would like to be able to hear it over the wind when driving fast. Looking at industry nine who use oil or grease with different thicknesses to tune the noise i think it's fine to use a pretty light oil. Atleast on the touching surfaces. I also don't like to have cowbell noise all the time😅 I have had ppl laughing from hearing my ball Horn (not sure if that's the right therm in english) LoL Dangerous Interactions with wildlife atleast here in germany aren't a concern most of the time. And with the noise and ppl... Because of headphone users and them being ignorant to where they walk i would sometimes need something truck horn loud when driving in the city 🤯😬

@@kaedeschulz5422 Haha, I ride with headphones on and a cowbell. I often ride a fixed gear on trails so it's silent besides the tires. Don't need a bell as much with all my CK wheels. They sound like noisy insects! Most folks get out of my way! If they don't get out of the way I've got a referee's whistle!

Hahaha, those are both pretty hard to beat!!

are the onyx hubs really that good? i want to buy a wheelset and leaning towards Nobl with onyx hubs

@@TheTaytoni I also would love to hear some folks chime in with unbiased real-world experiences with both the Onyx and Project 321 hubs. I just threw down for a beautiful set of hubs from Onyx. Haven't built them up yet so I can't speak about the performance and durability. What I can say is they're beautifully constructed and a tad heavy. I was seduced by the sprag clutch design and sacrificed weight for the stock equipped ceramic bearings, low drag, and the silence. Dan here at Fanatik gives them high marks. The only negative I have heard so far is the weight.

@@TheTaytoni They are straight up, amazing.

@@ticklefritz5406 I have i9 Torches and Onyx on my two bikes. I had torches long before my Onyx but my Onyx have seen a few thousand miles in the last year as they are on my daily rider. I live in the Midwest and commute year round, so the bike sees salt and snow on a daily basis this time of year. The Onyx spin and look as if they are brand new still. Extremely reliable and solid 'af'. I loved my Torches, but mounted on a deep Carbon road rim they are the most annoying, incredibly loud, sound to man. You can literally hear my road bike 2 blocks away. I dislike that, personally. Other than the sound, they have also been totally reliable. It really only comes down to preference. The Onyx are 1/2 lb. heavier and silent. One thing I can say that was actually surprising to me, considering understanding how a sprag clutch works I thought they would have a tad more drag since the races are essentially always touching. I was dead wrong, my Onyx will spin for 5 mins at least before slowing down. Regular steal bearings, it's pretty amazing.

@@unlearningify Thanks David! Did you need to adjust the preload on the ONYX after a bit? Mine out of the box seem a bit sticky. I'm hoping after a little break in period they'll roll on and on. Laughing with your comment on the sound of the Torches. I was never one to appreciate a card in my spokes.

Could be, but you'll know pretty quickly if it is. - Dan at Fanatik

Oh gosh, that was a while ago. I want to say regular, but I can't remember. - Dan at Fanatik

Gabe! Hi!! Shoot me an email at marketing@fanatikbike.com and we can exchange contact info! - DP

Unfortunately its not that easy. You usually can't reuse old spokes and nipples with a different hub. A full wheel rebuild would be in order to swap to a hydra hub

@@FanatikBikeCo thanks!

You would have to rebuild the wheel, it's not a great solution because it would involve substantial labor. My suggestion would be to sell your current wheel and build a single new one, which you have the option of doing in our Builder: www.fanatikbike.com/products/wheel-builder

Good question, at this point they do not make a BMX hub. Check out Onyx hubs, instant engagement, started with a BMX background, continue to make awesome BMX hubs! Cheers, Dan at Fanatik

Often times yes. In this situation because of the smaller teeth, and because only a few pawls engage at a time, I9 says it actually has less!

Check out Onyx! kzfaq.info/get/bejne/kOCnmtSF1tSodoU.html The downside is that it's much heavier.

Not a chance. It only has one pawl engaged.

What axle standard does your bike use?

Fanatik Bike Co. None. Planning a 29” Bassett BMX Swooper frame build but I would prefer MTB parts for drivetrain including wheels but with street tires. I want gears, plain and simple. I would like to ride my oversized BMX up the hills here in West Hollywood and surrounding area. Am I barking up the wrong tree with this build? I want something sturdy, fun and unique to ride around my awesome city.

I'm actually riding Hope hubs, they do have a phenomenal value. What do you mean by spending two years on marketing?

@@FanatikBikeCo Just meaning negligible gains to release a new hotness.

@@richcain5127 must have worked, a santa cruz page i am on i saw 8 people post up on launch day that they have the hubs on order 🤣

​@@richcain5127 Oh, I don't know. I see what you mean, but if you consider that they released Torch in 2013, it makes sense that they would have started to think on something new. Also, they took an absolutely phenomenal hub and succeeded in making it better in multiple ways, all the while only increasing the price by only $50. I think it was worth their while! Either way, thanks for watching - Dan at Fanatik

@@Guineson I am considering ordering some i9 hubs today! (The old ones are on special!) :)

We do. On whatever item you're looking at it will say if it ships worldwide right below the price.

We actually haven't had any warranty issues at all with the Hydra pawl mechanism! Cheers - Dan at Fanatik

@@FanatikBikeCo That's good to hear. I watched a video explaining how the hydra actually has the load spread over multiple pawls when under torque. Fascinating!

Out of curiosity, why do you prefer centerlock? - Dan at Fanatik

@@FanatikBikeCo I don't like dealing with rotor bolts, I think CL looks cleaner, and I like being able to use the casette tool for tightening

True.

The leverage from the initial pawl engaging causes the system to change axis slightly, allowing more pawls to engage. - Dan at Fanatik

Hahahaha...they NEED YOUR $$$. Come on now. That isn't ever going to happen. These hubs are meant to line their pockets, not yours.

Not at this point, no. There isn't a way to reliably remove the old drive-ring, since it tightens itself down as you ride, in some cases it is not possible to remove. It wouldn't be feasible on a large scale. That said, you'd have to purchase the majority of a new hub, so it wouldn't be a massive savings.

@@FanatikBikeCo i dont want the new ring , just the axle and bearings for my torch.

@Won Honglo Fakie is landing backwards... So, instant engagement means you have to start spinning your cranks backwards as soon as you land.. some low engagement hubs helps by adding delay to when you NEED to pedal backwards.

I guess that depends on how you define "engagement" and how you define "better." The first is pretty objective, and in this case, using the industry standard definition, it does in fact have 690 points of engagement per rotation. The second is very subjective, and if the 18 simultaneous points of engagement of the DT hubs are what you want, then you're right, they're better than Hydra's two or three. I agree that DT's system is really clever - I love those hubs. Cheers - Dan at Fanatik

They didn't bring this system to their road hubs. Check out their Q&A for more info: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/j8CRgbGXktebpJs.html Cheers, Dan at Fanatik

More importantly why would you need this on a road bike? Points of engagement won’t help on a road bike since there isn’t that stop to go that you have on MTB.

Dan Rezaie I9 made I9 torch road hubs. I generally prefer to support their products over other brands, if they made a road hub for this when I swapped over to disc I’d probably pick it up.

And at around a 50 tooth cassette cog that 1.1 deg translates to roughly 3mm. Less than .5mm at the smallest cassette cog. Not enough difference to actually feel *BUT* my point is only to say that there are good options for those who want hi engagement point hubs. I like options.

@@PedalingDave definitely agree, when i was doing my wheel build for my new bike i was all over the place. A large factor for me though is a quieter hub so at the time P321 and onyx where my top picks. If Hydra was out 6 months ago it possibly could a strong contender as IMO it has a much more pleasant sound vs the torch version.

The only dealbreaker on those P321s is the lack of Centerlock. They've been hinting since before their recent move to OR that they might do their hub in Centerlock, so these might be in my future.

I can't find a ton of information about Factor hubs, but they do use 6 pawls, like these. The drive ring has 60 teeth, and I imagine the pawls probably engage in two phases, so it's probably a 120 point engagement hub, like the Torch. It looks like a nice product, and the company seems rad. If you want all out engagement though, the Hydra has quite a bit more. Cheers - Dan at Fanatik

They should, i9 was one of the first companies to be granted access to making hubs with the new micro spline.

Yes - we have Micro Spline capabilities. Fanatik should be able to hook you up!

@@industrynine3931 Thanks for the reply.

@@helavia5554 Yep, shoot us an email at sales@fanatikbike.com

Ever see what happens when pawls break? Youll be buying new hubs and building new wheels! DTs star ratchet is stronger but Ive seen those break under abusive , neglecting riders. DTs are pretty nice hubs if you cant afford CK. The bearings are the biggest difference in high end hubs. Most use a $10-20 enduro bearing, radial contact, designed for electric motors, including I9. Very few use angular contact anymore which are well proven over many decades in loose ball hubs such as Campy and Shimano. If hub bearings are not AC they are inferior! DT probably uses German bearings on the high end, I dont remember. Why do most use off the shelf cartridge bearings? Cost, availability, profits,simple design and manufacturability. CK uses $70 sealed angular contact surgical quality bearings. Imagine the bearings in your dentists drill. They even make the balls in house! Nobody else manufactures their own bearings!Best in the business,none better, ceramic or not. Now you KNOW why they cost what they do. Probably at least $200 just in bearings in every rear hub. People overlook the inner beauty because theyre distracted by pretty colors and noise or ‘points of engagement’. Just like loud exhaust, stereos and members of the opposite sex!! I wrench in a shop. Ive overhauled lots of hubs. Most riders ignore them and dont even check bearings until somethings wrong. Gotta MAINTAIN your shit or youll be walkin! No matter how much you spend. Walking sucks when it is with a bike far from help! Believe me, Ive made all the mistakes! Nothing lasts forever! Wheels roll on bearings and are driven by hubs, kind of important, no? Theres only one hub Ive seen (and owned) that very very rarely ever fails even when abused. Thats Chris King. Ive only heard of wrecked bearings. Thats from neglect. Ive never had to replace bearings in the dozens Ive serviced. Not ONE! You service these bearings, not throw them away! Just like the old loose balls that everyone hates because they’re lazy, except those we replace the balls. The Ring Drive in a CK may skip if neglected but Ive never seen one broken or totally fail. They claim it will handle 800 ft lbs of torque! I believe it. Ive seen their facilities. My personal 5 CK hubs are 15- 25 year old. My 3 CK headsets are 15-30 years OLD! Well over 100000 miles on all this stuff. All run original bearings and work even better than when new! Thats by design and the fact that I TAKE CARE OF MY SHIT! I was a machinist of 30 years. Ive always worked on high dollar, high reliability applications such as aircraft, spacecraft and medical devices. I recognize quality when I see it. I bought my 1st headset on reputation alone. Its outlived 3 frames! I bought my 1st set of CK hubs on the spot when I first saw them disassembled!

@@michaellee8226 King uses a sort of expanding driver on a helical spline. Completely different than pawls. There's more surface area gripping rather than POE. The harder you pedal, the harder it grips. You'd need to see a hub disassembled to see this design's uniqueness. Its similar to DTs Star ratchet but bigger and much stronger. Ask I9 to test their hubs to 800 ft/lbs of torque. That's more than most motor vehicles. Then there's the bearings. The most important part of any hub. We roll around on our bearings. i9 uses cheap Enduro cartridges and they're not angular contact, nor are they adjustable for wear and preload. So you use them until the bearing just gets rough or fails. The best hubs are adjustable so you can keep the bearings adjusted perfectly. They last much longer that way. I work on lots of hubs and build lots of wheels. Ive done it for decades. I see what lasts and Ive seen lots. If you've got money for I9s save a little more and get Kings. I9s arent bad, I just don't think they're worth the price. I afford Kings by buying them used. I recently got some SS wheels for $200! I still haven't replaced one bearing in any of my 6 King hubs or headsets used hard over decades.

I'm not an engineer, but I'd guess that because roller bearings can only handle radial loads, they would not be suitable for a bicycle wheel, which is also dealing with some amount of axial loads. Also, roller bearings have a lot more friction. Cheers, Dan at Fanatik

You're right - my intent was to put fresh grease in there, but that was the last part we filmed and I was in a big rush by that point :/ I rationalized it because the Torch wheel is almost new (handful of rides), but yes, it's not a perfect comparison. At least it gives you an idea of what the Hydra ones are like - and they are in fact quieter than torch. Best, Dan at Fanatik

Oh hey I just realized something you may find helpful. At the very, very beginning of the video I spin the Hydra wheel. For that clip the driver and free-hub were 100% clean, no grease at all - it was before I put that Dumondetech grease in there, and I had cleaned it to better be able to see everything. So, that sound is louder than it would ever be in real-world use, since you'll always be running at least a light oil in there. You can compare that to the greased sound at this part of the video: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rsqHgcKGqNXHXX0.html Hopefully that's helpful. Best, Dan at Fanatik

U mean theres people who still like them?

Do you know what rear hub sizes the Roscoe uses?

Fanatik Bike Co. it’s a 15 by 110

@@cjdriver2 That's the front hub dimension, actually. The rear would likely be, 10x135, 12x142, or 12x148.

Fanatik Bike Co. could it be a 22x141

@@cjdriver2 Hmm, that's not something I've heard of or that I could find online. Check with the manufacturer, they should have that part spec.

Okay. There was never even stress on the system, and there never will be. It's all coming from a point tangential to the axle - the chain. The forces involved have not changed. To add to that, this hub has been tested through and through, both in the lab and in the field (eg the hubs I have), and they have shown that they are more durable than the torch hubs. Best, Dan at Fanatik

Nitro, not nitrous. Nitro is short for nitromethane, which is the fuel Top Fuel Dragsters and nitro R/C cars run on. Nitrous is short for nitrous oxide, which is sprayed into the intake of cars owned by people looking for a large, temporary increase in horsepower/torque.

It's been a while, but yea. - Dan at Fanatik