Christ, as fast as those guys play, that seems like an easy one to miss. He has to roll a D6 as they’re not Phobos so must have been pretty psyched to roll a 6, and probably wasn’t even thinking about the max move of 5” for the Aggressors. That’s IMHO obviously.

I believe you have mis-ruled here, but I'm happy to be told why I'm wrong. In Warhammer, generic rules are overridden by specific rules, so the Core Rule limit of movement to the base movement characteristic would be overruled by the strategem changing the distance of the movement in its own wording. The core rule doesn't say "You can never move more than" or any other wording that suggests it isn't changeable, and I haven't seen any FAQ / Design Commentary stating this cannot be overruled by a specific strat / ability / effect, so why do you believe the strategem does not, as it says it does, alter the distance allowed by the normal move?

The interaction you desribed while true is one of the worst edge-cases of 9th/10th edition. Your ability tells you to roll something to know how far you can move but has that little word "normal move" that also means you are limited by your unit's move characteristic. It also makes some "scout without the scout tag" abilities very cumbersome to use.

Seems innocent enough. I mean I hate the wall hiding base blocking sweaty crap, but this is the championships so expected.

Cheating requires intent, getting stuff wrong is not cheating. The current game has too many rules (wow really!?) and it's amazing that people at the top of the game can do so well to get them as right as they do. I'm sure our home pick up games include many mistakes, but no cheating at least.

I'm of the belief that the stratagem is a replacement effect. And if he rolled a 6 he COULD move the full 6. The judge at the table thought this as well. Under "normal" circumstances you can never move further than your movement. But under normal circumstances you can't advance and charge OR advance and shoot. But we have things that replace the standard rules (assault and pistol weapons here respectively). IMO as a to and judge. The reason "normal move" is used there is to show what kind of a move it is for OTHER rules reasons (moving through your opponents models without fly for example. You couldn't do this as it's a normal move)

The idea of games being reversed after the fact is extremely wierd and dangerous The ruling on the field stands. Whats the purpose of refs if thats not how it is?

The stratagem reading make a normal move up to D6” reads as if that replaces the movement characteristic. Is that not how it’s meant to be used? I don’t run Vanguard but a buddy does so it would be good to know how this kind of movement is supposed to work.

Re: Dice cheating specifically, Ive long said, we should treat dice in major tournaments like we do cards at a casino, combined with how bracelets are used for special events. Essemtially, charge a few bucks extra for entry, and issue event specific size and color dice which are not announced beforehand, forbid anyone bringing their own dice or using dice that do not meet the size, color and shape of the event speciifc dice. You break open your own personal cube of dice, you play those dice, you keep them after as a keepsake from the tournament. As for cards, I have always said we should require a players opponent draw a card at random from those available, rather than letting players draw their own. To prevent someone rigging their deck the way a magic player might attempt.

Update: Post-event I'm getting conflicting accounts about Liam Hackett's game regarding his card draws; until I verify exactly what happened I'll be cutting that portion of the video out. Will post an update later if it turns out the inital reports were inaccurate. Update on the update: I've reached out to a judge who was reportedly present for the game in question, but they refused to comment.

I also dont really appreciate your super clickbait title. The contents of the video and title are completely different And when clickbait comes at the cost of peoples reputation, i think its gone too far Contents of the vid, totally fine and well done. Title, not fine

Sounds like sheer error to me. Things like this could be avoided if GW didn't keep making it so hard for people to have the tools they need for easier gaming, without having to use their (often not as good, if even in existence) official merchandise. In this case, having a small (eg A6 size) reference card per unit in your army would make it incredibly easy to double check the stats of both your own and your opponent's forces at the drop of a hat. Meanwhile, placing down a card with the stratagem on it- and appropriate reference made in its text to the limitation of a normal move- would have ensured this error didn't occur. Actual USRs, rather than just for certain weapon abilities, would also be a significant advantage. In this case, if the stratagem was simply something like "allows the unit to make use of the 'Fallback' USR..." then not only would you need very wording for the stratagem, but all the equivalent's in other armies would be the same- making the game simpler and easier to balance as a result.

Any mention of the Rigg vs Mani game where a secondary card disappeared from Riggs deck when he left to the bathroom.

I mean in my opinion. It’s a funky scenario, I feel like every game of Warhammer has a funky scenario that pops up. It’s really hard to make an exact call on what happened, and both players did play really well. I like that John was winning with non-parking lot marines too. He has a cool list and was doing cool things with it. Overall if both players are accepting of the outcome of the tournament then I feel like the community shouldn’t make a huge deal over it. They were able to settle this in effectively a BO3 later on and I think it was a really interesting finish.

this is RAW vs RAI symantics and should have been clarified in a tournament pack prior to the tournament taking place. As the clear intent is you can move the D6".

If johns unit was 1 inch behind the walls before he moved, and he max rolls an advance and moves them back to the same place, a 5" move, how is he not 1 inch from the walls if that is where he started his move?

this is just one more thing the WTC does better than GW. In WTC infantery and beast can stand inside wall, so this move would have been pointless

Well either way looks like they both enjoyed the game and were really good about the whole thing.

I feel like Lennon would have won HARDER if he was forced to have 1 guy closer to the wall, that would FORCE the chosen to charge, and then only 1 or 2 models would be eligible to fight, and then the clap-back would wipe them. Shame it wasnt noticed at the time

Liam Hackett was also suspected of smooth cheating at the WTC, last August. And player who played against him told the guy was very unpleasant to play against (the opposite of the same guy, one year before!)

You cant reverse the game score like that. What if John rolls hot on saves or Mani rolls cold on wounds and will not wipe them?

Mani being a Prick again, Imagine my shock

You sort of have the wrong end of this Mani vs John issue. John played the rule correctly, a judge ruled in his favor. Mani didn't like the ruling, and found another judge to rule on it, this other judge being wrong. John only moved his dudes 5" and then his Calgar 6". Which he was perfectly correct to do. The argument was about Calgar's movement, not all the Aggressors. John saying they can move 6" was merely a mistake in his wording, not in his play. He only moved them an actual 5". Mani essentially judge fished to get the answer he wanted after it was already ruled that John was correct. Not only was it a bad call on the part of Mani/the judge, it was completely out of line for him to judge fish to get the answer he wanted after it was already settled against him. Mani has another allegation against him at this event so let's just say it's not looking good for Mani right now. That one involves a secondary obbjective card that would have been bad for him had it been pulled going missing from his opponent's deck coincidentally while they took a short break. Not suspicious at all, no....

Wow, so instead of getting hard evidence just report the quick and messy gossip. Not what the commity needs.

Tbh, I didn’t even know that the D6 roll is still limited by your movement.

Initially, did the unit move from behind the walls and then moved back using the Strategems? Would be interesting to know this because then it would be easy to judge.

Complex rules = increased probability of errors, mistakes, and misunderstanding.

Since the stratagem changes the move characterisitic to whatever result is rolled the the Normal Movement rule shouldn't apply. That seems to be what Calvulated Feint is doing. It is describing a new movement value for out of phase Movement rahter than putting the unit into a new movement phase.

Seems like an honest mistake to me with the player getting caught up in the moment. Wouldn't call it cheating.

Aggressors have 5" move and when put with characters with leader keyboard it moves to 6" but don't the aggressors have jump jet

Someone help me out - why does moving a unit behind cover stop the charge!? -Units do not need to be visible in order to charge -ruins: infantry and beasts can move through this normally. Unless they were actually 13" away I don't get it!?

I think if they are going to argue that they can only move 5" back because of the base move then how did they get 6" forward to start? What am I missing.. either way he rolled max both times so 5 or 6 they still would have moved out and back the same distance??

Are you telling me if i have Ceaseless hunter on my Allarus Captain in a unit of Allarus Custodians, since they only have a movement of 5" on their datasheet, they can only make a 5" move with Ceaseless Hunter. First, that's not how I've been playing that. The ability says up to 6". Second, it does not say anywhere in the rules that i know of that ab out of sequence Normal Move is limited by the movement stat of the model. It's really unintuitive. I can see how it could be interpreted that way but it would be much easier to just state it plainly in the rules for types of movement.

Out of the AoW guys John seems like the only straight shooter. I’d be interested to see what actually went down.

just another day in tournament Warhams... the Studio has jacked the game up so badly that even the actual "pro players" can never get it right.

What a joke! Its this kind of garbage that prevents 40K from being able to be taken seriously! Broken ruleset time and time again, what rubbish!

"Normal move upto 6". So..... Your normal movement is 5 inches so you move 5 inches Your normal movement is 6 inches so you move 6 inches Your normal movement is 7 inches but you will only be allowed to move 6 inches It has to be a "normal move" which means your normal distance and I don't believe it can mean anything else Hope this helps

Bro John got highway robbed either way

It’s been a handful of hours since the event has finished, with all hearsay, and we’re feeling like it’s ok to drag people’s name’s through the dirt without anything conclusive? These players are people. Not fuel for clickbait.

they should just move d6, anything else just seems idiotic. it will only say normal move so it can trigger anything that triggers off a normal move and avoid arguments about "well akshually its not a NORMAL move, its just a move" it needs to say up to because been forced to move 6 could also lead to idiotic argument where you need to say "i spin on the spot like a twat for 4" then move the extra 1" i actually wanted"

OOT but am I the only one that see that no one ever respect the standard 2" coherency in tournament games?

When i did read the cheating in the title i thought there would have been at least some real cheating... Also reviewing a full game and give a penalty after it is settled for something like this is kind of toxic

THis feels a little like GW's fault for once again writting the rules badly. Cause if it said "If unit normal movement is shorter than your roll, then you must take the highest possible movement the unit can actually do, not the roll amount" this would heavily effect using this strat on gravis, terminators and centurions. But because it doesn't say that and all you get to understand this is the use of 'normal move' it can be very understandable that you wouldn't realize this is technically cheating. Yes this was for the annoying wall blocking strategy, but you can understand why he forgot, especially with the hype of actually getting the six. As for Marneus, to my understanding you must take the slowest unit as your movement range(outside of more niche movement I suppose if that's allowed, but generally just moving across the battlefield I guess just use the five instead of six) Which is weird cause to my understanding the leader uses the toughness average of his squad if they are being percisioned? So if marneus is leading a group of tacticus units his toughness would dragged down to four instead of six if someone used precision?

yeah unfortunately after warhammer opened up for "Everyone" this shit is in 100% of tournaments now..... reason i straight up Quit playing TTB...

Why is John shouting through that whole clip 😂

I don't think this qualifies as cheating. Seems more like honest mistakes. 40k is a very complex game, so even for experienced players it is easy to miss something if they are playing at a fast pace.

Out of all the unconfirmed allegations to come out of that event, only bringing up one of them and then doing it by way of unnamed, Discord message is pretty cowardly. Shame that's where you're at with your content and channel.

This entire take is so ridiculously off point it should be embarrassing.

The ruling during the game should stand. Such a scummy move for mani to go and complain getting a win on a technicality. Getting handed a game when it would have been played completely differently had the ruling happened at the time. Mani often comes off as a cry baby and this just confirms it imo.

You should all be careful, saying people are cheating and such when most likely it is just a mistake. Allegations without substance can harm a person’s reputation. The competition organisers resolved any mistake and it is settled. Simple.

Sound like gripeing to me lost so moaned and moaned at a judge

Clearly just a misplay. Pretty shitty to make this video with "cheating" in the title for something like this, especially when the tournament is still going on. No time for anyone to make any statements or commentary on their side lol. Like, come on

I’m glad this is a simplified game system 😂

the state of competitive 40k sure is great! lmao.

There were only 175 players at the event and hardly anyone left at the end. Cant believe you were actually there at the end to witness first hand everything that went on. Or your just commenting on peoples comments who were also not there.

For Christ sake just let them play why everything gotta involve AI overseeing everything

So why did he need to move 6? Can’t they move through ruins walls?

Score reversal was beyond fair

Allegations of cheating or no, what’s clear is that Mani was very unsportsmanlike and shopping around for a judge’s decision that suited him. That alone should be called out.

Mani did the "hard" tryharder all game and John, when he noticed his error, took a voluntary penality from himself with arbitor : It's fair play victory for Lennon. Otherwise, thx you for french wargame studio who filmed the game (it's prove this fact).

Epic finals

ask me how i know your bald

Trying to incriminate someone's mistake for more clicks. Really shitty thing to do.

Seem like a mistake to me.

It's only cheating if it's intentional and consistent. Anyone can make an error every now and then....

Big clickbait here

Competitive warhammer players cheating...surely not 😅

Cheating at a 40k tournament? That *never* happens (sarcasm).

Here it is. Knew this was coming

Cool as always. 👍

Jesus Christ, 40k is turning into MTG its not a good thing and I have been warning people for years. Mani cheating or whining to get his way again..... shocking, utterly shocking.

I think the ruling is dumb, and the tactic being employed is dumb. You shouldnt be able to use terrain to make yourself unchargable, period.

Every person on here saying Mani scouted out another judge to get a more favourable decision are just salty Americans or John fanboys, Mani had nothing to do with the second judge so stop crying over it.

Not surprised an Aussie got caught cheating...

At this level of play, in my opinion the cheating is deliberate. Could just be my PTSD from my days playing Magic the Gathering, but in my opinion players at this level should know the stratagems proper use. It's not massive, but it is classified as cheating.

Scummy Click bait conjecture.

Piss on AoW they do stuff like this and other things all thr time. Like Harpster trying to flip a game he lost at cherokee last year against one of the guy from my neck of the woods.